Do You Believe In A God/creator

[pointofview]

If i showed you my watch, you might say thats a nice watch where did you get if from? If i replied that it just happend by chance - in other words it made itself - then you would probably think i was nuts!

However, the universe is obviously a lot more complex than my watch, yet many people will readily accept that it just happend!!

Someone had to create my watch as it is obviously to complicated to have just happend (created itself) by chance - even after a trillion millenia, so something must have created the universe - God???

[Neeranam]

I do, yes, but I'm not a Buddhist.

[Brucenkhamen]

Someone had to create my watch as it is obviously to complicated to have just happend (created itself) by chance - even after a trillion millenia, so something must have created the universe - God???

Yes, it could have been God, or it could have been aliens, or it could have been Santa and his elves.

The point is if you, as man has been doing for centuries, invent a story to explain things you don't understand then you no longer need to find evidence for the real truth, you no longer need maintain an open mind. You can file it away under "Understood", you can safely go through your day comforted in the knowing that everyone is on the same page. And if someone disagrees with you, well, you can always burn them at the stake, or fly planes into their buildings.

Being willing to "not know" is a much braver and more sincere approach to the unknown. Not knowing leaves your mind open to discover the real truth. You can be at peace in not knowing, and because you don't have to wrestle with doubts about your faith you can be open to the wonderment of this world.

So no, I don't know how the world came into being, I'd like to know but I don't "need" to know.

[pointofview]

Someone had to create my watch as it is obviously to complicated to have just happend (created itself) by chance - even after a trillion millenia, so something must have created the universe - God???

Yes, it could have been God, or it could have been aliens, or it could have been Santa and his elves.

The point is if you, as man has been doing for centuries, invent a story to explain things you don't understand then you no longer need to find evidence for the real truth, you no longer need maintain an open mind. You can file it away under "Understood", you can safely go through your day comforted in the knowing that everyone is on the same page. And if someone disagrees with you, well, you can always burn them at the stake, or fly planes into their buildings.

Being willing to "not know" is a much braver and more sincere approach to the unknown. Not knowing leaves your mind open to discover the real truth. You can be at peace in not knowing, and because you don't have to wrestle with doubts about your faith you can be open to the wonderment of this world.

So no, I don't know how the world came into being, I'd like to know but I don't "need" to know.

I was expressing a point of view, asking a question. Which you have ignored with your angry rant. Being willing to not know is the only option you have mate - unless you know something that the rest of us dont know. The watch/universe analogy was put to solicit thought - not angry rants.

[lannarebirth]

Someone had to create my watch as it is obviously to complicated to have just happend (created itself) by chance - even after a trillion millenia, so something must have created the universe - God???

Yes, it could have been God, or it could have been aliens, or it could have been Santa and his elves.

The point is if you, as man has been doing for centuries, invent a story to explain things you don't understand then you no longer need to find evidence for the real truth, you no longer need maintain an open mind. You can file it away under "Understood", you can safely go through your day comforted in the knowing that everyone is on the same page. And if someone disagrees with you, well, you can always burn them at the stake, or fly planes into their buildings.

Being willing to "not know" is a much braver and more sincere approach to the unknown. Not knowing leaves your mind open to discover the real truth. You can be at peace in not knowing, and because you don't have to wrestle with doubts about your faith you can be open to the wonderment of this world.

So no, I don't know how the world came into being, I'd like to know but I don't "need" to know.

I was expressing a point of view, asking a question. Which you have ignored with your angry rant. Being willing to not know is the only option you have mate - unless you know something that the rest of us dont know. The watch/universe analogy was put to solicit thought - not angry rants.

As an impartial observer. I'd say you constructed your argument using a flawed logical basis, but received a thoughtful reply all the same. It was anything but angry.

[Brucenkhamen]

I was expressing a point of view, asking a question. Which you have ignored with your angry rant. Being willing to not know is the only option you have mate - unless you know something that the rest of us dont know. The watch/universe analogy was put to solicit thought - not angry rants.

There was nothing angry in my post, nor was it a rant. If you accuse people of angry rants when all they are doing is constructively discussing the topic you have raised then you are likely to go through life encouraging angry rants, but you won't get one from me.

So I'd be interested to know, what in my post gave you the opinion it was a. angry or b. a rant.

But to be honest I don't think that will serve any purpose, better to accept that this was just another internet miscommunication and move on to engage in constructive dialog on the points I raised in relation to your topic.

If you were offended I didn't directly address your watch analogy then I'm happy to. A watch is a much smaller thing than "The World", you can easily deterimine where it was made by checking the brand name and the made in China label. Now if I can't see a brand name or a made in wherever label I don't invent a story do I, I either accept that I don't know or I investigate more deeply. Either of those are acceptable, I don't invent a story on how the watch came about.

[pointofview]

I was expressing a point of view, asking a question. Which you have ignored with your angry rant. Being willing to not know is the only option you have mate - unless you know something that the rest of us dont know. The watch/universe analogy was put to solicit thought - not angry rants.

There was nothing angry in my post, nor was it a rant. If you accuse people of angry rants when all they are doing is constructively discussing the topic you have raised then you are likely to go through life encouraging angry rants, but you won't get one from me.

So I'd be interested to know, what in my post gave you the opinion it was a. angry or b. a rant.

But to be honest I don't think that will serve any purpose, better to accept that this was just another internet miscommunication and move on to engage in constructive dialog on the points I raised in relation to your topic.

If you were offended I didn't directly address your watch analogy then I'm happy to. A watch is a much smaller thing than "The World", you can easily deterimine where it was made by checking the brand name and the made in China label. Now if I can't see a brand name or a made in wherever label I don't invent a story do I, I either accept that I don't know or I investigate more deeply. Either of those are acceptable, I don't invent a story on how the watch came about.

Sorry but you obviously are unable to comprehend my point. Point being - you would not believe me if i told you that the watch just formed from nothing, you know it just appeared one day. Like the universe - just appeared one day.

[Brucenkhamen]

Sorry but you obviously are unable to comprehend my point. Point being - you would not believe me if i told you that the watch just formed from nothing, you know it just appeared one day. Like the universe - just appeared one day.

Correct, I would not believe you that the Watch was formed from nothing, nor would I believe you if you told me it just appeared one day, nor would I believe you if you told me it was created in 6 days.

On that we are in total agreement.

Where our ways part is I'm happy to accept that I don't know, for now, whereas you go on to conclude in your first post "...so something must have created the universe - God???"

[pointofview]

Sorry but you obviously are unable to comprehend my point. Point being - you would not believe me if i told you that the watch just formed from nothing, you know it just appeared one day. Like the universe - just appeared one day.

Correct, I would not believe you that the Watch was formed from nothing, nor would I believe you if you told me it just appeared one day, nor would I believe you if you told me it was created in 6 days.

On that we are in total agreement.

Where our ways part is I'm happy to accept that I don't know, for now, whereas you go on to conclude in your first post "...so something must have created the universe - God???"

I am happy we are finding some common ground. However, please note the symbols after the word God - i.e. ??? Which i know you know indicate a question rather than an assumption.

[Brucenkhamen]

I am happy we are finding some common ground. However, please note the symbols after the word God - i.e. ??? Which i know you know indicate a question rather than an assumption.

Yes, which is why I answered the question, and went on to illustrate why I think that it's not the only question that could be asked as the result of your analogy.

[pointofview]

I am happy we are finding some common ground. However, please note the symbols after the word God - i.e. ??? Which i know you know indicate a question rather than an assumption.

Yes, which is why I answered the question, and went on to illustrate why I think that it's not the only question that could be asked as the result of your analogy.

Try taking up politics - you have worn me out. Whish i'd never asked

[Brucenkhamen]

Try taking up politics - you have worn me out. Whish i'd never asked

It's early days yet, I'm sure there are other points of view yet to be posted on your topic, it's certainly a worthwhile topic to discuss.

[suegha]

How easily these topics deteriorate!

Simple first post, simple analogy - I like it for that!

The universe could not have come about by chance, for me, there can be no doubt. Again, for me, there has to be a God who created all of this. I know some people don't hold with this, and it is, after all, a position of faith. As to whether this makes a person 'closed minded' is up to each individual. I'm very open minded as to the theories, however, the theories are still, theories. And as such are also positions of faith.

Good thread. Come on folks, let's keep it civil!

[Brucenkhamen]

The universe could not have come about by chance, for me, there can be no doubt. Again, for me, there has to be a God who created all of this. I know some people don't hold with this, and it is, after all, a position of faith. As to whether this makes a person 'closed minded' is up to each individual. I'm very open minded as to the theories, however, the theories are still, theories. And as such are also positions of faith.

Well put, I certainly wouldn't begrudge you having faith if you can stay open minded about it.

To me "The universe could not have come about by chance... so God must have created it" is a leap of faith, not a logical conclusion. Nothing wrong with that if you know it for what it is and can maintain an open mind.

[thaicurious]

i believe that wearing a watch helps little to grasp infinity.

[Naam]

Do You Believe In A God/creator

i do. any other questions?

[canuckamuck]

If I could approach the OP in a different way, I think the point is: if something as insignificant as a watch requires intelligence and a will for it to be conceived and constructed, how much more does the universe require the same? Another question might be why there is 900,000 species of insects? No new species ever seem to occur while other species are continually vanishing. The time frame required to develop a new species is thousands of years, but all that is required to end a species is a subtle climate/habitat change or an invading species. The odds against the natural occurrence of 900,000 distinct species are vast and it is more likely that over a million years 900.000 species would become very few species, even if all humans vanished tomorrow.

[Brucenkhamen]

If I could approach the OP in a different way, I think the point is: if something as insignificant as a watch requires intelligence and a will for it to be conceived and constructed, how much more does the universe require the same? Another question might be why there is 900,000 species of insects? No new species ever seem to occur while other species are continually vanishing. The time frame required to develop a new species is thousands of years, but all that is required to end a species is a subtle climate/habitat change or an invading species. The odds against the natural occurrence of 900,000 distinct species are vast and it is more likely that over a million years 900.000 species would become very few species, even if all humans vanished tomorrow.

All very interesting, nobody is disputing that the World is wonderful, indeed it’s even more wonderful that a watch.

The question is why do you feel the need to know how the World came into being? Can you not be at peace with not knowing? Or can you subscribe to a theory on how it came into being without holding it too tightly and making a religion out of it?

Does the knowledge of how the World came into being, or lack thereof, increase or reduce the suffering in your life? Does it help you live day to day? Does it help you be a better person?

A creation myth was seen as unnecessary by the Buddha. I’m not even sure it’s necessary for other religions either, I think Christianity would still be worthwhile without it, don’t you?

[camerata]

Sorry, but this thread has nothing to do with Buddhism. Topic closed.