Association Of Foreigners In Thailand

[thomo]

Oz has tropical beaches and all the beauty of the nature.

Yes, but the hoards of Thais and other Asian girls there already have visas' and some kind of security.

[cdnvic]

Oz has tropical beaches and all the beauty of the nature.

Yes, but the hoards of Thais and other Asian girls there already have visas' and some kind of security.

Oh no... you mean you'll need grooming and personality to attract them?

[thomo]

'fraid so. A sad day for all.

[LinkPopularity]

YEAH RIGHT

Edited October 17, 2007 by LinkPopularity

[wolfmanjack]

ET, Why is it you always have some evil conspiracy theory. The ownership laws are protecting the poor people from the future

It's not a conspiracy theory, it's economic fact.

Protecting the poor people from what exactly? Evil foreigners?

Protecting the poor people from selling their land to others and enriching themselves that's what.

I don't hear those Thais that sold previously worthless land complaining about their windfall!

You have to ask yourself who stands to gain from not allowing foreigners to buy land. Certainly not the poor. They are poor and will remain so. The only thing they have is their land which remains worthless and used as a bartering chip until it is taken away from them by the lenders.

The hypocrisy is stunning from Thailand's biggest landowners and lenders.

Remember, some are more sufficient than others.

Surely the biggest landowners have the most to GAIN from allowing foreigners to buy, they can sell their land quicker and for more money.

Foreigners do not want poor people's land, which consist mainly of rice paddies in the middle of nowhere.

From what i see the rich people in bangkok are already pricing the average thai out of the market for land that Westerners would want.

Almost all of the land with views in my wifes village is owned by bangkok thais. They are asking 1 mill per rai for land in the mountains 100 km form Chiang Mai.

The land in front of me in me is owned by a bangkok thai the land behind me is owned by a bangkok thai and they are all asking 2 mill per rai. I paid 300k per rai. A thai paid 9 mill for 5 rai 300 meters down the road from me.

[wolfmanjack]

There is 17000 Thais in the U.K and there is 41000 Brits living in Thailand, You should check your facts before posting.

I think that is 41,000 brits that are receiving their social security checks in thailand. The number living here is most likely much higher.

[wolfmanjack]

Mod comment: just a note, off topic and abusive posts have been deleted.

Personal comment: this thread just goes to show why no non-chamber of commerce lobby group has ever gotten off the ground. If you can't even agree online, how are you going to do it in real life?

From what they have told me they are trying to make changes by going through the Joint Foreign Chambers of Commerce instead of trying to do it all alone.

Another observation: A few people in the past have tried to set these things up in the past. Invariably, the first meeting takes place at the Subway sandwich shop down by Nana. I have never figured out why, but it always seems to be the case (another group used the Bourbon bar and grill as their launch venue).

An association formed at a Sandwhich shop or bar, full of middling calibre members, is never going to get an appointment with the Minister of Commerce,

Agreed with you on this point. I suppose that it would take a group that is interested in 1 topic to start. Personally I would like to be able to own land but it is not my priority. I can own land by putting it in my kids name or by some other means. My main objective would be to get a long term visa for those married to thais or those that are parents of thais. A group that formed that had this single goal would not bicker like the people on this forum are doing. DO you think that they would listen if it had 100,000 members that were all married to or the parents of Thai citizens? Now increase the numbers by including the Thai spouses as members. I think this type of organization may have a chance.

nor likely to have enough funds undertake a campaign to convince the average Thai that foreign ownership isn't such a bad thing.

Most thais that i have talked to do not care if falangs can own land. The guy that sold the land I am on was happy as hel_l to sell it to my wife and i. Also thais here keep showing up trying to get me to buy more land around me. Convincing the average thai would not be that hard. It is convincing the people that make the laws which would be impossible.

[samran]

Most thais that i have talked to do not care if falangs can own land. The guy that sold the land I am on was happy as hel_l to sell it to my wife and i. Also thais here keep showing up trying to get me to buy more land around me. Convincing the average thai would not be that hard. It is convincing the people that make the laws which would be impossible.

I disagree on your last point, though it is probably counter intuative.

Most land is owned by wealthy Thai's. Opening up foreign ownership would increase demand, and hence prices. Good for the ruling class. The poor are poor, they've never had a real shot at owning too much land anyway.

I think with most things, free trade, foreign investment, etc etc, it is the working class who are more fearful of foreign entry. A good recent example is the sale of Shin corp to Temasek. That led to a popular discontent of Thaksin 'selling the country', even though it was his own private asset to sell!! Quite ironic, as Thaksin himself lambasted and gained electoral support for his digs at the democrats in 2000 and 2001 for agreeing to the IMF rehabilitation program, and his later comments (highly popular with the masses) that the "UN is not my father".

Politicans are afraid to campaign on economic openess, as they'll get some slimebag, such as Samak or Banharn in there saying that the opposing cantidate stands for 'selling the nation to foreigners". I've seen it time and again.

[wolfmanjack]

Most thais that i have talked to do not care if falangs can own land. The guy that sold the land I am on was happy as hel_l to sell it to my wife and i. Also thais here keep showing up trying to get me to buy more land around me. Convincing the average thai would not be that hard. It is convincing the people that make the laws which would be impossible.

I disagree on your last point, though it is probably counter intuative.

Most land is owned by wealthy Thai's. Opening up foreign ownership would increase demand, and hence prices. Good for the ruling class. The poor are poor, they've never had a real shot at owning too much land anyway.

I think with most things, free trade, foreign investment, etc etc, it is the working class who are more fearful of foreign entry. A good recent example is the sale of Shin corp to Temasek. That led to a popular discontent of Thaksin 'selling the country', even though it was his own private asset to sell!! Quite ironic, as Thaksin himself lambasted and gained electoral support for his digs at the democrats in 2000 and 2001 for agreeing to the IMF rehabilitation program, and his later comments (highly popular with the masses) that the "UN is not my father".

Politicans are afraid to campaign on economic openess, as they'll get some slimebag, such as Samak or Banharn in there saying that the opposing cantidate stands for 'selling the nation to foreigners". I've seen it time and again.

There is a difference between the group mentality and the individual mentality. Most of the people around me that still own their land only have 2 or 3 rai and would be glad to sell. As a matter of fact now that the new road is being put in it seems that every one and their dog is trying to sell. Of course the prices have jumped from 300k per rai to 2 mill per rai. I can't imagine how anyone thinks it is worth that much but some is selling. I would guess all of these people would be happier than a pig in shit to sell to a foreigner. The only poor people that do not want to sell to foreigners are those that do not own any land. Now if you get all of these land owners in a group they will be nationalistic and say that it is bad but in reality they will sell to anyone that meets their price.

I think the Shin deal only caused such an uproar because of the satellites involved and the fact no taxes were paid. Mostly because of the satellites though.

Of course a politician can not openly state that he is making it easier for westerners to buy thailand. It would be political death. On the other hand not one single person that owns land in thailand would refuse to sell on the basis of principal. The common theme would be that the keep thailand for the thais applies to every one else but not to them when it comes to lining their own pockets. What i am saying is that most would vote against foreign ownership in the polls but all would sell if they had the chance and their price was met.

[lukamar]

Although this thread is a couple of months old I'll make a quick response.

Naysayers aside, if you do not try you never will get anywhere. AOFT was formed when 3 people, from this board, got together and decided to try to do something. At times things have seamed futile as many here have stated, other times there seems to be a glimmer of hope. Through it all we have maintained our original vision.

Over the last while the political situation has not been good for lobbying anyone. Now that there has been an election we hope that there will be a period of stability for a while and that calm heads prevail. We have worked with the Joint Chambers to have our message, combined with theirs, put to the previous government and we hope to work with them again in this regard.

Over the last year we have made some changes and need to make some more. We have amalgamated our old AOFT forum with another Thailand Forum to make it more interesting and worthwhile to read and post in, sorry i can't give a url as it's against the forum rules here. We no longer collect donations on the website but pay expenses personally, this may change depending on costs in the next while.. We rebuilt the AOFT website because of some concerns we had about security and to make it a bit more user friendly. We added an opt-in newsletter option for members. Membership to AOFT is free and we do not plan to have a meeting in a Subway Shop or a Beer Bar, although an announcement of free beer would probably bring out a huge crowd.. Those that are concerned that our server is situated in Canada should understand that Thai visa's is situated in Singapore, this is not unusual on the internet. Aoft's server and bandwidth is donated.

AOFT's initial ideas and vision has not changed over time and remain the same.

-Longer term visas for Retirement and Foreigners Married to Thai Nationals.

-Limited Land Ownership for Foreigners.

-Easing of the 7 day exit rule once a work permit is canceled.

-Resettlement visa for Foreigners with a Thai family moving to Thailand.

-Thai Style ID Cards for Visa Holders of 1 year or more.

-Restructuring of the 90 Day reporting to something more workable for everyone.

AOFT is not asking for anything that is unreasonable or will make work harder for the appropriate government agency, some will even make their workload lighter.

On a sad note out Bangkok Representative took seriously ill and had to move to Taiwan for long term treatment this year.

The AOFT Mission Statement

The Association of Foreigners in Thailand is apolitical and represents all foreigners irrespective of their country of origin, religion or ethnicity. It will lobby the Thai Government, their Ministries, their employees and others, from time to time, in a peaceful and non-confrontational manner. It's objective is to bring the concerns of the foreign community to their attention with the intent of creating an atmosphere of trust and meaningful dialog regarding the concerns of both parties.

Edited December 26, 2007 by lukamar

[chicowoodduck]

I admire those who try to make a stand, but the fact of the matter is that we have zero rights, never will and all lobbying will do is further piss off those at the top.

And believe me, you DON"T want to piss those off at the top because in all likelyhood, they'll just end up pissing on you! That's one "golden shower" I'm not interested in being part of anytime soon!

[sriracha john]

So we have a website that almost works and barely gets read, hosted in Canada, registered to a Canadian who doesn't live in Thailand. Tell me again how they are lobbying for farang rights? Or maybe we should just call a spade a spade and say that this is one of those pretend organizations that don't really do anything.

Excellent summation.

[lukamar]

So we have a website that almost works and barely gets read, hosted in Canada, registered to a Canadian who doesn't live in Thailand. Tell me again how they are lobbying for farang rights? Or maybe we should just call a spade a spade and say that this is one of those pretend organizations that don't really do anything.

Excellent summation.

Vic we will be waiting for your new website design with new code, as well as a donated hosting and bandwidth contract in Thailand. We are sure that you can do a much better job and your input as a volunteer would be much appreciated.

John we are looking for a representative in Bangkok. Feel free to apply for that volunteer position as well I'm also sure you would be able to do a great job for AOFT.

It is easy to sit and criticize the work put in by others, on your behalf, as some here have done, but it's totally another thing to get off your butt and actually do something other than complain. We all listen to the same people whine about the same things but not one of them choses to put a foot forward to change that. No wonder the Thai people would rather a lot of us, just go home.

[sriracha john]

So we have a website that almost works and barely gets read, hosted in Canada, registered to a Canadian who doesn't live in Thailand. Tell me again how they are lobbying for farang rights? Or maybe we should just call a spade a spade and say that this is one of those pretend organizations that don't really do anything.

Excellent summation.

Vic we will be waiting for your new website design with new code, as well as a donated hosting and bandwidth contract in Thailand. We are sure that you can do a much better job and your input as a volunteer would be much appreciated.

John we are looking for a representative in Bangkok. Feel free to apply for that volunteer position as well I'm also sure you would be able to do a great job for AOFT.

The AOFT (Association Of Foreigners In Thailand) doesn't have a representative IN Bangkok?

:D

Perhaps a name-change to Association Of Foreigners Outside Thailand is IN order.

Still, I would consider the position as a volunteer worker if the organization could sponsor my Thai work permit. Could you provide a detailed listing of the group's financial statements and a list of tangible accomplishments the organization has achieved so I could begin my work permit application?

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

It seems to me that extending the lease to 99 years and a longer retirement visa could be a solution. The thais will still own the land but the forang has more of a feeling of permanence.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Try and get a retirement visa for Australia, they no longer have one. So thailand could be worse, they could cancel theirs like Oz did.

[lukamar]

Still, I would consider the position as a volunteer worker if the organization could sponsor my Thai work permit.

Working in Thailand without a work permit, are we or just not employable.

[sriracha john]

Still, I would consider the position as a volunteer worker if the organization could sponsor my Thai work permit.

Working in Thailand without a work permit, are we or just not employable.

Neither.... but I'll await the financial records and accomplishments list. I presume you have easy access to them for the other volunteers' work permits that are working outside of Bangkok.

[lukamar]

It seems to me that extending the lease to 99 years and a longer retirement visa could be a solution. The thais will still own the land but the forang has more of a feeling of permanence.

That's something to consider. We suggested a cap on the size of plot that a foreigner and his spouse could own jointly. We never stipulated a size but had 1/2 rai in mind. If you had a plot of 2 rai you could split off 1/2 rai and build your house on it and work something out with the rest. Put it in the wife's name, leaseback etc.

Malaysia has a good workable retirement package and it would be nice if Thailand would consider something similar to that in the future. People who retire want some type of stability in their lives. Year to year was great when we were Hippies but life and needs change with time.

[lukamar]

the other volunteers' work permits that are working outside of Bangkok.

Thai Nationals and those with dual nationalities, one of which is Thai, don't need a work permit John.

[thai_narak]

i would suggest that the first thing that you have to request is for foreigners' right to vote. when you have this right you can lobby anyone for anything but until then there's no way, not in a million years.

[lukamar]

i would suggest that the first thing that you have to request is for foreigners' right to vote. when you have this right you can lobby anyone for anything but until then there's no way, not in a million years.

Foreigners can vote. All you have to do is get your permanent residence and then apply for Thai Citizenship. Shouldn't take a lot more than 13 or 14 years if you are lucky...LOL

Small things would make big improvements. Instead of no we can't, why not yes we can. There is strength in numbers, the foreign community is fragmented and the government agencies know that, we will get nothing or even lose ground, if we do not pull together.

[thai_narak]

i would suggest that the first thing that you have to request is for foreigners' right to vote. when you have this right you can lobby anyone for anything but until then there's no way, not in a million years.

Foreigners can vote. All you have to do is get your permanent residence and then apply for Thai Citizenship. Shouldn't take a lot more than 13 or 14 years if you are lucky...LOL

Small things would make big improvements. Instead of no we can't, why not yes we can. There is strength in numbers, the foreign community is fragmented and the government agencies know that, we will get nothing or even lose ground, if we do not pull together.

exactly, so who needs AOFT?

[Mobi]

I'm going to stick my head in the firing line here.

Some of your aims seem to be sensible, and I see nothing wrong in principle with a group of like minded people with similar aims and desires, getting together to form an organisation to be their lobbying vehicle.

In many ways it is no different to the various Chambers of Commerce that operate here, (and in every country), who lobby the governments of the day on matters that effect their nationals who either live in that country or do business there.

However, no Chamber of Commerce would be effective, without the support of local, eminent expatriate businessmen, who one way or another, carry some clout, and even more importantly, have maintained influential contacts with senior government officials and civil servants in the country in which they operate.

You can't lobby if you don't have the machinery in place to get your proposals to the right level of government.

So it seems that while the AOFT may have good intentions, it's not going to even get to the starting blocks until it start to seriously engage the local expatriate community - especially the influential ones - and develops high level relationships with those in government.

At the moment, you don't even seem to operate within the country.

[tijnebijn]

I'm going to stick my head in the firing line here.

Some of your aims seem to be sensible, and I see nothing wrong in principle with a group of like minded people with similar aims and desires, getting together to form an organisation to be their lobbying vehicle.

In many ways it is no different to the various Chambers of Commerce that operate here, (and in every country), who lobby the governments of the day on matters that effect their nationals who either live in that country or do business there.

However, no Chamber of Commerce would be effective, without the support of local, eminent expatriate businessmen, who one way or another, carry some clout, and even more importantly, have maintained influential contacts with senior government officials and civil servants in the country in which they operate.

You can't lobby if you don't have the machinery in place to get your proposals to the right level of government.

So it seems that while the AOFT may have good intentions, it's not going to even get to the starting blocks until it start to seriously engage the local expatriate community - especially the influential ones - and develops high level relationships with those in government.

At the moment, you don't even seem to operate within the country.

Exactly , but not a bad start .

[wintermute]

I think it would be highly entertaining to film one of the "meetings" just to see what sort of expat specimens show up at a sandwich shop to discuss changing Thai laws.

[sriracha john]

As per post #83, it's inferred that at least more than one Thai National would be attending the meetings along with the expats. Thai Nationals that are apparently volunteering their precious free time in order to increase the rights and privileges of Foreigners that are staying in Thailand.

[mrtoad]

As per post #83, it's inferred that at least more than one Thai National would be attending the meetings along with the expats. Thai Nationals that are apparently volunteering their precious free time in order to increase the rights and privileges of Foreigners that are staying in Thailand.

Whilst I agree that in theory such an organisation would be a good idea, the practicalaties of it lead me to think that it is doomed somewhat to failure.As I beleive what Charles Dickens once wrote, if that happens "I'll eat my head".

I

[dogleg]

practicalaties (nice one!) and influence, meaning brown envelopes stuffed with cash.

We know there is a benefit to Thailand as a whole in expats being here, but what would be the benefit to the Lawmakers to give us more rights?

and where are the benefits IN Canada? Got any more websites?

[DirkGently]

I would love to see it in action.................but back in the real world.

Let's face it the 'haves' couldn't give a stuff about the 'have-nots'. There is zero chance of them being interested in us.

I'm not giving up before it is started, just seeing what is there to be seen. Thai lawmakers take pride in having us jump through hoops, just because they can.

There is also a weakness of mind to deal with when dealing with Thais, not to mention the fact that we are largely seen as cash cows.

I just hope a Thai in England does not face the ignorance we face every day. The day I had a bank manager flip my passport back across the table at me as he said that 'his' bank didn't give bank accounts to farangs, still stings. I was new back then and asked what that meant and he just said 'aliens'. I told him straight that he was an ignorant idiot that only had his job because his staff were even less intelligent than he was.

I went to another branch of the same bank as was allowed to open the account I wanted.