Thai Logic

[Ajarn]

TGT...there's whingers where ever you go.  I'm sure you know people who are never satisfied and always look at the glass as being half empty instead of the other way around.

I'd propose that many are satisfied...Some people simply enjoy whinging, and if there isn't any real item to go on about, then they look for something to whine about, and if nothing can be easily seen, then they create it...At that point, they're nothing more than a Troll, in my book...

[ThaiGirlTeen]

At that point, they're nothing more than a Troll, in my book...

Do you reckon there are Trolls at large in this Forum ?

[Ajarn]

It was all a matter of face. The guy's walked away and seen my superior logic (in this case at least) and organised the crew to come pronto. Perhaps he realised it would be better to move the pole beforehand while I was expressing my opinion but to openly change his mind and agree with me there and then would have in his judgement involved a loss of face on his part. If I hadn't said anything the road would now be finished with a power pole in the middle still blocking the way.

Maybe...Or maybe not...

I'm not saying you're wrong by any means, but maybe there were other things happening which you weren't aware of...

For example, The guy with the Tie at the Amphoe office. Is he the guy who tells them what to do, or is he simply a bureaucrat that has nothing to do with the actual construction planning, but is there to do something else, like make sure everyone is there to work, or...? Maybe the plan all along was to move the pole before construction, but this guy didn't know that, so, instead of saying 'I don't know', he simply said the first thing that came to his mind, since the actual construction was not his job?

My point is that I think we all do a lot of 'guessing' here in such situations. We often assume one scenario, but it isn't always the case where we have enough real evidence to make an accurate judgment of the situation, even when we feel sure we do know what's going on. I've found myself in such a situation plenty of times here, unlike back in my home country...

For me, that's when 'MaiPenRai' comes in handy. Instead of getting myself all worked up with my frustrations and value judgements, I try to just let it go, and accept that it's good they removed the pole (as an example), without tripping off all the other stuff about who is thinking/doing what, and who has the superior logic, etc.... I've learned from experience that that is akin to beating one's head against the wall, and serves no useful purpose to them or me.

[Ajarn]

At that point, they're nothing more than a Troll, in my book...

Do you reckon there are Trolls at large in this Forum ?

Hey, if the shoe fits...

[chuchok]

As a friend of mine said to me "there are many Thai people that lack the common sense gene" This is from a guy that has been in business in The Kingdom for 15 years and employs over 100 staff. While he would be the first to state that he is no expert, he did say that while many Thai people lack this gene, there is also a percentage of very, very smart Thais….normally the Thais with close Chinese ties.(No pun intended)

No one is saying that all Thais are thick. Most countries have a percentage of people that are mentally challenged .It’s that there are many things that happen here that a lot of people(falung,thai ,asian) shake their head at the rational.

Example:-

Closing of bars early to stop children being exploited.Why don’t they police it better rather than close bars early?(and no, I am not affected by this at all)

How does a falung in Pattaya commit suicide by having both hands tied behind his back and a plastic bag over his head?

Why does the Thai government deny that there is large scale prostitution in the Kingdom?

Did a Thai minister a few years ago try to outlaw the signs in English at BKK airport(something I heard...)

I am sure that there are many, many examples that people could give.

I love living here and when I hear about (lack of common sense gene ) stories, I love it. It makes my day. I also accept that this is not my country, but I accept the way it is.

Where ever we live we are all allowed to criticize, or is Thailand a communist country? The people that piss me off most are the ones with the “I know more than you attitude .”…and there are a few of those here.

[Boon Mee]

At that point, they're nothing more than a Troll, in my book...

Do you reckon there are Trolls at large in this Forum ?

There's some here who would put you in that catagory, TGT! Not me but there is a subtle difference between a "Troll" and someone who plays "Devil's Advocate". It's a perception thing?

[cobra]

On the subject of logic in general,

... I find your logic highly illogically ... Spock ...episode 7, 24, 71, 115 ...

ok then, put the brain down and just back away from the logic and no one gets hurt ...

[hkthai]

As a friend of mine said to me "there are many Thai people that lack the common sense gene" This is from a guy that has been in business in The Kingdom for 15 years and employs over 100 staff. While he would be the first to state that he is no expert, he did say that while many Thai people lack this gene, there is also a percentage of very, very smart Thais….normally the Thais with close Chinese ties.(No pun intended)

No one is saying that all Thais are thick. Most countries have a percentage of people that are mentally challenged .It’s that there are many things that happen here that a lot of people(falung,thai ,asian) shake their head at the rational.

Example:-

Closing of bars early to stop children being exploited.Why don’t they police it better rather than close bars early?(and no, I am not affected by this at all)

How does a falung in Pattaya commit suicide by having both hands tied behind his back and a plastic bag over his head?

Why does the Thai government deny that there is large scale prostitution in the Kingdom?

Did a Thai minister a few years ago try to outlaw the signs in English at BKK airport(something I heard...)

I am sure that there are many, many examples that people could give.

I love living here and when I hear about (lack of common sense gene ) stories, I love it. It makes my day. I also accept that this is not my country, but I accept the way it is.

Where ever we live we are all allowed to criticize, or is Thailand a communist country? The people that piss me off most are the ones with the “I know more than you attitude .”…and there are a few of those here.

I do agree with you that relative to some developing countries, Thais do lack a general common sense.

However, for every examples that you bring up, I can probably come up with some examples in developed countries where on the surface things does not seem to make sense either.

1. Closing bars early.

Was it in England where the government wanted to close bars early to decrease the level of binge drinking among bar patrons and hopefully avoid the potential trouble afterward? How about some portions of the bible belt in the states where you cannot sell liquor on Sundays. However you can certainly drink at a bar on Sundays.

2. Falling Farung. Without really knowing the entire background or conversations and only knowing what was reported, I am sure that the police suspected otherwise. Suicide was an easy explanation to hide their incompetence in solving the case in the first place.

3. Thai Government denial. They are not that stupid. Who do you think are some of the biggest patrons?? Speaking about government, how about Franch or Germany 35 hours work week law? So much for trying to be competitive with the 1st world.

4. Thai minister?? Don't know. But let's say he did propose it. I recall in California many years ago a proposal that all signs are to be in English??

How about the guy who tried to sue McDonalds? Or the skier who went over the ledge and broke his neck despite all the warnings in the world not take the plunge? Or several decades back when some guy dived into the ocean break only to twist his neck (Newport Beach, CA??). He sued the city....and won??

Again I don't disagree with you. But you will find lack of common sense anywhere in the world.

Oh, I am glad you love living here and can take all the miscues here in Thailand with laughter.

[chuchok]

HKTHAI.

1)closing bars

I come from a country that used to close bars at 6PM….no wonder I’m a soak!!

2)Falling Falung

Funny to read about this, but not funny for his family

3) Thai Govt denial

The very best BS in the world…followed closely by Chinese BS about SARS(Face Rules!)

4) That cld only happen in California…I mean Arnold is the boss….unbelievable !!can only happen in America

5)Common sense does lack in the third world and California,but the third world lacks more than say developed countries....education might be the answer....

[Khun Larry]

What is the reasoning here?

Perhaps the reasoning is that you are trying to think like a westerner when you are inside a southeast asian society. You have to put yourself in the other persons shoes and think of things from their viewpoint. Then maybe you will understand.

Here is another example, albeit far removed. In many middle eastern cultures, it is not recommended for a single male to enter an elevator, when inside the elevator there is already a single woman or a woman with children, who may appear to be married.

The "logic" is that it would be assumed that you were trying to hit on the woman inside the elevator. As a result, both you and she would be viewed as "tainted" if discovered. This could have bad consequences possibly for you and almost definitely for her. This is the "logic" of the culture.

So what is the point?

The point is that whether or not something may seem "logical" or not from a western culture, makes almost no difference if you are in an area where the culture or customs are different.

Western "logic" may not really apply in many situations in Thai culture, and vice versa. There is probably not much anyone can do to change it. The only alternative would seem to be to adjust one's thinking and adapt to the surroundings.

I am not sure about the above use of the term "logical" but agree with the cultural component concept as a way of understanding "What is the reasoning here?"

For starters, Logic, like math, is highly defined. 2 + 2 must equal 4 the world over or there is no logic. So logic is like a language with explicit definitions and accepted meanings called principles.

Approaching problems in a "logical" way requires an understanding (acceptance may be more accurate) of logic principles. It is a developed skill which can be measured. When the expected result is not obtained a logical explanation is sought. Reasoning, it would seem, is the application of logical principles to predict a result or explain the unexpected.

Responses in Thailand generally are not based on logic and reasoning as we know it as Thais lack these skills generally. A poor education system not providing students the ability to comprehend and solve problems, early dropout, combined with a cultural inclination to excuse poor performance would seem to be a large part of the cause. Interestingly, learning these skills in US schools becomes emphasized beginning in the 7th - 9th grades, a time when many Thais have finished their formal education.

In Thailand the response is often unexpected to the westerner. Responses which are consistently unexpected lack logic. However, responses which are unexpected but consistent thereafter would seem logical, a logical pattern exists. Thais seem to have very defined cultural responses which, if applied consistently, could indeed be considered logical. In fact, the result is often highly expected to other Thais.

It is likely the situations without cultural precedent often produce the most interesting "surprises."

[naja]

Just beyond the city limits of Chiang rai there is one building housing 1 minimart,1 internet shop ,and 2 photocopy shops .Across the road there is a very small building housing another photocpy shop. When I mentioned the relatively large number of photocopy shops concentrated in such a small area ,I was told it was a means of "sharing the customers". Who could fault the logic in that statement!

Re:agro workers and their way of thinking- please read the large amount of research on farmers in the third world who are often experimenting all the time. They are certaintly not carry out the type of research that is undertaken on agric.research stations,research which is frequently inapplicable on farms of very small size as most se asian farms tend to be.

[rgr4u]

Face is more important than money....

I might have agreed with that 5 or more years ago, when I didnt know the Thais that well, but nowdays, nup, money is everything to these people, EVERYTHING!

one of the Greatest H.M. King 's speech:-

"Those who do not love 'money' are the person who do not love life, do not love future"

"คนไม่รักเงิน คือคนไม่รักชีวิต ไม่รักอนาคต"

anyway

this statement can be perceived differently due to each person's background (nature or perception)

G.F.B.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[rgr4u]

I've read that to understand the Thai mindset you have to be familiar with the Thai National Anthem. Does anyone know what it translates into English?

[Sulaphat]

In Thailand the response is often unexpected to the westerner. Responses which are consistently unexpected lack logic. However, responses which are unexpected but consistent thereafter would seem logical, a logical pattern exists. Thais seem to have very defined cultural responses which, if applied consistently, could indeed be considered logical. In fact, the result is often highly expected to other Thais.

It is likely the situations without cultural precedent often produce the most interesting "surprises."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is the key, in my opinion. I think that within the Thai culture, Thai "logic" holds up fairly well. That is if you interpret logic as being an expected consequence of a certain action. I think that Thais put different emphasis on different things in many situations. "Face", social hierarchy and harmony, relationships, expectations of others and the like are given more weight in Thailand than in the west. I think that these considerations will influence how a Thai reacts to certain situations more than they will influence a westerner and may confuse a westerner who may be expecting a different outcome.

I think that the West has its own "illogical" situations, even when measured by western logic. I understand that Lewis Carrol was a logician and some of his works poked fun at common assumptions/beliefs which were contrary to logic.

[dugdig]

About the utility pole in the middle of the soi. When you went up to the worker and asked if the pole would be moved it is likely that the worker thought, "Boy, this guy thinks we are really stupid. I think I'll play along with him a bit and see what he does." There actually is a very logical reason why indeed it might have been best to leave the poleinitially and remove it after the pavement was constructed. I'm a licensed civil engineer in Washington State (USA) with road construction my specialty. (Really) A cement utility pole surrounded by cement pavement is structurally sound. Cutting off the pole even with the pavement makes a perfectly useable pavement surface for a back road...no problem whatsoever.

[bollox]

what a load of &lt;deleted&gt; ...

[Doctor John]

what a load of &lt;deleted&gt; ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You may be right there....

[DJ Pat]

what a load of &lt;deleted&gt; ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That defies logic^^

[bmw]

Today, 2004-11-05 11:11:37

In: Thai Logic

By: &lt;deleted&gt;

[Boh Bpen Yang]

I have to agree with an earlier poster about the education system in Thailand. It teaches mostly through memorization and repetition. It is a system to learn data but not how to work the answer out. I have found that, as Thais go out into the world, they have to solve problems or they could not survive. Because many of the people of Thailand are still very connected to a rural background they tend to solve problems with the easiest solution rather than the most effective.

[somtaamgaiyang]

If there is no logical explanation for something happening, assume that there is a financial benefit associated to the decision (payoff, backhander etc).

This has never failed me.

[Ajarn]

I have to agree with an earlier poster about the education system in Thailand.  It teaches mostly through memorization and repetition.  It is a system to learn data but not how to work the answer out.  I have found that, as Thais go out into the world, they have to solve problems or they could not survive.  Because many of the people of Thailand are still very connected to a rural background they tend to solve problems with the easiest solution rather than the most effective.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I completely agree. Thais are not stupid, but some, like many others in this world prefer the easy way out sometimes.... I remember hiring a gardner who had great knowledge and experience, but preferred being told what to do on the job, partly from the sabai-sabai factor, and partly out of fear of being critisiced for doing something wrong.

It can be very frustrating for me at times... Recently, I built a solar heater that was hooked up through my pool water pump. Even though the pump is 2 hp with a very high flow rate, it wasn't enough to carry the water through the solar panels on the roof. I went to a big shop that specialized in water pumps and irrigation systems and asked them to send out their 'chang'. I specifically asked for their most experienced person, because I feared some clueless kid (strong arms/weak mind, the favored employee by many).

So this older 'expert' comes to my house, looks at my system and insists I must buy another pump for my solar setup. I just felt it was wrong because of the power of my pump, which should have planty of pressure flow to do the job....

I can't walk very well, so I gave my digital camera to the guy and asked him to take a photo of the inside of my pump house so I could see the piping setup. I looked it over for perhaps 30 seconds and figured I found the answer. I printed out a colour copy of the plumbing and marked where the pipe leasding to the solar setup was located, and then a place where it should be reconnected to, moving the junction closer to the pump outflow. In the old position, the water had to make too many turns and this extra flow restriction cut down the final pressure to the solar quite a bit...Moving it closer and more direct to the pump solved all the problems... I did take care to present it more as his idea than mine, since I didn't want to have any problems...you know how it goes sometimes...

Anyway, he was very excited to take my photo and his idea back to boss, where I'm sure his boss now thinks that this guy really has acquired great analytical common sense...

I hope he has, too

[Potter]

I've read that to understand the Thai mindset you have to be familiar with the Thai National Anthem.  Does anyone know what it translates into English?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For a translation of the Thai National Anthem, simply make a google search combined with translation. I found this link http://www.thaichicago.net/clate/anthem.html

[Doctor John]

Anyway, he was very excited to take my photo and his idea back to boss, where I'm sure his boss now thinks that this guy really has acquired great analytical common sense...

I hope he has, too 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ajarn,

His Boss probably sacked him for failing to sell you that bigger pump!

[udon]

I was just wondering what the Thai logic was regarding motorcyclists and cars for that matter just driving strait onto a road from a laneway without looking to see if it was safe to do so. So far I've hit 6 bikes and a car this way. And naturally it was my fault or so their logic goes.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and the cop books you and says "it's your fault because if you weren't in Thailand you not have this accident....." TRUE THAI LOGIC

[Ajarn]

I was just wondering what the Thai logic was regarding motorcyclists and cars for that matter just driving strait onto a road from a laneway without looking to see if it was safe to do so. So far I've hit 6 bikes and a car this way. And naturally it was my fault or so their logic goes.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and the cop books you and says "it's your fault because if you weren't in Thailand you not have this accident....." TRUE THAI LOGIC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mostly, it's rule #1. 'failure to control vehicle in a safe manner' or, if serious, like someone dies, it's 'Reckless Driving' or 'Reckless Driving Ending in Death'... That's the reason why they look for which vehicle hit which vehicle by looking at the vehicle with the most forward damage....The idea is that if you hit someone with your front end, you probably should have seen the vehicle, and been able to stop or move out of the way...See rule #1. Against any other evidence, I think it tends to make pretty good sense...

It seems to me that the farangs drivers who have the most problems are the ones who Fail To Conform to Thai driving rules- and yes, there are rules. Learn them. This is one time when conforming is is beneficial to you and others around you.

Main Rule Of The Road. Might is Right. Just like in Thai society, and many other societal 'norms' translate to driving also. Farangs who drive with 'laws' and 'rights' other than thai laws and rules, are headed for a bruisin'- at least. Plenty of logic here. Don't let your own ignorance tell you that there isn't any...

I have driven perhaps a million kilometers here in the past 20 years, in all parts of the country, and even two years of commuting in Bkk traffic everyday... I've never had an accident. Many close calls, though!

[Insight]

I've never had an accident. Many close calls, though! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ouch! I'd be cautious about typing that - this country's made me far too superstitious.

[Ajarn]

I've never had an accident. Many close calls, though! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ouch! I'd be cautious about typing that - this country's made me far too superstitious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hear ya'. You don't think I knocked on my head (wood) after typing that?

[Ajarn]

Anyway, he was very excited to take my photo and his idea back to boss, where I'm sure his boss now thinks that this guy really has acquired great analytical common sense...

I hope he has, too 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ajarn,

His Boss probably sacked him for failing to sell you that bigger pump!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, ya' never know, na'?

But, if I'd bought the pump, they'd have installed it for free. The other way, with the 500 baht service charge, a smart business man would see that the likely in-his-pocket profit off a 1500 baht pump would have been less than the 500 baht (plus parts) he got from me...

Here's hoping for a smart businessman!

[samran]

There is a logic to Thai logic.

Most people wont do anything unless told to do so by a superior. The problem is that to get anything done, you need to know the person at the top of the pyramid and work with them. The guy at the bottom of the pack will not do anything, as initiative is very rarely rewarded in thai society, lest it make someone higher up lose face.