Flash Flood kills 4 Swiss, 2 Thai, 1 German and 1 Brit In Surat Thani

[Bagsida]

there are no signs outside the cave saying that you cannot go in. there never has been. this information is incorrect.

Hello Donna,

o.k. it not helps the victims, but today I saw in German TV a warning sign in front of the cave in Thai & English.

Yes, this incident was reported in German news today.

Bagsida

[Scott]

There are a number of caves in public parks throughout various countries that require permits to explore alone or go further than is considered reasonably safe. Carlsbad Caverns in the US is one that comes to mind. The Black Hills of South Dakota also has restricted access as do some caves in France. Caves on private property are subject to laws on trespassing. This is done to both for safety concerns for people as well as to provide that damage isn't done to the fragile ecosystem that exists in some caves. I am talking about caves that pose a danger, not simply a small hole in a mountain in which daylight usually penetrates.

Some years back, there were a bunch of folks here in Thailand (including a politician as I recall) who were looking for gold in a cave. Several people perished in this persuit over the years--I think the air is bad or not enough oxygen in the deeper interior. Maybe someone here may recall.

Guides, if they are licensed, and if not, they shouldn't be called or allowed to advertise themselves as guides, should make sure that folks are prepared, including a minimum of safety equipment and from the sounds of it, people probably shouldn't be allowed (by the guide) to go in without proper footwear.

I don't wish to argue with anyone about the overall safety--my concern is that when you hire a "guide" who should know the level of rigor and difficulty as well as what is needed for a successful mission, you are entrusting them with your care. This accident is tragic and I certainly don't know enough about it to blame the guides, since I doubt that they wished to perish in the cave, but in general, greater precaution is necessary in such ventures here.

[PadThaiGuy]

Why is the industry treated as a cash cow joke?

Most of the Thais involved in the tourist industry have zero repsect for their clients.

Racism is the answer.

They would put you on a bus to hel_l for a 5thb profit.

[sriracha john]

Tragic for this to happen, there was a guy from Belgium drowned in the same cave a couple of years ago, there are signs outside both in English and Thai warning tourists not to go into the cave during heavy rains.

AND... the group was verbally warned, as well, by both another tour guide AND apparently the National Park staff. All of the above was ignored with catastrophic results.

[madjbs]

Why is the industry treated as a cash cow joke?

Most of the Thais involved in the tourist industry have zero repsect for their clients.

Racism is the answer.

They would put you on a bus to hel_l for a 5thb profit.

Why is it racist? If a Thai person is on the tour as well do they get some kind of secret warning?

The answer is about being greedy and stupid.

[LaoPo]

I still find it amazing that the topic title has not been changed!

Death toll 4 Swiss 2 Thai 1 German 1 Briton and 1 Survivor (Briton).

I did send a report asking for it to be updated but it has been ignored, quite disrespectful realy.

You have a point here and I reported as well, after reading your message, but maybe because it's night now the Mods have missed it so far...?

LaoPo

[loveandlaughter]

From Guardian newspaper UK:

'One minute I was in a beautiful place ... the next there was death all around me'

· British survivor tells of 16-hour ordeal on ledge

· Fiance among eight swept away and killed by floods

Ian MacKinnon in Bangkok and Karen McVeigh

Monday October 15, 2007

The Guardian

A young British woman described yesterday how her fiance was swept away by a torrent of water and drowned as she clung to a ledge in a Thai cave hit by a flash flood that claimed the lives of five other hikers and two local guides.

Helena Carroll, 21, from Solihull, near Birmingham, was eventually rescued after clinging to the craggy face of the pitch black cave for 16 hours.

Her fiance, John Cullan, 24, had saved Ms Carroll when he grabbed her as she slipped and almost fell as they desperately climbed to escape rising waters. But she last saw him when he lowered himself into the raging torrent in an attempt to seek help, fearing they would both die if they remained in the cave in Khao Sok National Park in southern Thailand.

Article continues

"I cannot believe I am the only survivor," she said, hours after her rescue. "I can't believe my John is dead. One minute I was in what I thought was the most beautiful place in the world. The next thing there is death all around me."

The couple had been in the vast Tham Nam Thalu limestone cave complex for some time before they heard a roar of water and seconds later saw a German boy aged 10 and one of the guides swept away, followed by a Swiss couple and their teenage daughters.

Other guides in the area famed for its tigers and ancient rainforest do not take tour groups to Tham Nam Thalu during the monsoon because of the dangers of sudden, devastating floods. Police had erected signs warning against visiting during the rainy season.

But the British couple were oblivious to the risks when they set out from their simple cottages at Bamboo House, about 40 miles (60kms) from the lake, on Saturday morning - intent only on another adventure in their holiday of a lifetime.

"We had to decide whether to put down the money for a house or go on holiday," said a distraught Ms Carroll, who works for the industry training provider Empower. "We decided to take a holiday and up until then it was a dream holiday in the most beautiful place I had ever been to."

The excursion involved a boat trip on Chaiw Lan Lake and an hour-long trek through the forest, before they reached the cave mouth.

They descended into the chasm using torches handed out by their two Thai guides to light their way. Ms Carroll said they saw spiders and bats as they moved through the waterfall-studded cavern before hearing the torrent behind them. "I saw this rush of water coming towards us," she said. "John and I started climbing. The first thing we saw was the tour guide and 10-year-old German boy being dragged away, then the Swiss couple and their two lovely girls.

"As we climbed I lost my grip and slipped down but John grabbed me and pulled me up. We kept climbing higher and found a ledge. We were all alone in the dark. We could not see anything as all the torches had gone."

The couple debated their next move and Mr Cullan, who works in the asbestos industry, eventually decided he had to raise the alarm even though his finance believed their best chance of survival was to stay put.

"John said: 'If we stay here we're going to die'. But I said we should stay," she said. "At least we were safe there. But he decided that he would get into the current and flow with it. He thought the current would take him out, then he could bring help to rescue me. He slipped into the water and that's the last I ever saw of him. He let go and he was just gone."

Alone in the darkness, Ms Carroll clung to the ledge, shivering and listening to the rumbling torrent. She lost track of time before she saw a bright beam of torchlight and cried out to alert the rescuers.

At first she was told only that many people had died and their bodies had been found eight hours before her discovery yesterday morning. But it was only when she was taken to the makeshift mortuary that she found out that she was the only survivor.

"I saw John's body in a box next too one of the beautiful little Swiss girls," she said. "It was awful. John is a big man - 14 stone - and everybody remarked how big he was. I wanted to be left alone but it was impossible.

"I can't believe I am the only survivor. I can't believe my John is gone. I want to go home as soon as possible, but I want to make sure John is taken care of."

Ms Carroll called her parents and told them she was fine.

Police identified the foreign victims as a Swiss family, Benno Fisher, 49, Stalder Fisher, 48, Ambarea Fisher, 17, and Sarah Fisher, 15, and Eddie Gaempe, 10, of Germany. The boy's mother did not go on the trip as she was ill, but believed it would be safe as he was in the company of other adults.

One tour operator, who has been taking visitors to the national park for eight years, said they never travel to the cave during the wet season as the waterscan quickly rise without warning.

"Our tours to the cave begin at the end of October, when the water is OK, up until the second week of May," said Paa Nipattong, Trekking Thai Ecotours manager. "We do not take tourists to Tham Nam Thalu in the rainy season at all."

[sriracha john]

Some years back, there were a bunch of folks here in Thailand (including a politician as I recall) who were looking for gold in a cave. Several people perished in this pursuit over the years--I think the air is bad or not enough oxygen in the deeper interior. Maybe someone here may recall.

When Ratchaburi senator Chaowarin Latthasaksiri announced that at last a lost gold hoard had been found in a cave in Kanchanaburi province he became an overnight national hero. He has held an unwavering belief for the past decade that the Japanese had stashed some US$25 billion worth of gold towards the end of World War II. Despite never being able to show anything concrete previously, his assertion that this time it was definitely there and could be used to pay off the Thai national debt, he was believed.

Prime Minister, Thaksin Shinawatra even made a whirlwind visit to the Lijia cave where the cache supposedly lay buried. Media attention was frenetic, this could pull Thailand out of its economic woes, and everything will be all right again, they said.

But as the days went on the situation became more and more bizarre. No gold surfaced but suddenly out of nowhere a US war bond turned up with a face value of US$100 million, or a photocopy of one, supposedly part of a US$55 billion haul still in the cave. Never mind that the US never printed and bonds that had a face value of more than US$10 million. Never mind the fact that the bond had the signature of ex-treasury official Donald Regan, who wasn't around in 1934, when the bond was dated. These small facts just got in the way of a good story.

The Prime Minister started to distance himself from the alleged find, despite giving it credibility by turning up at the cave in the first place. The international press labelled Thaksin a dream merchant following the Lijia episode.

- ThaiNews / April 2001

The lost treasure of Lijia Cave is now notorious as the biggest hoax in Thailand's history. The fraud reeled in and some argue was abetted by Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra. Thaksin flew to Lijia on the April 13 and after being privately shown evidence by Chaowarin, made vague pledges to enlist remote sensing satellites to probe the cave. If the find was genuine, he told reporters, it could pay off the US$61 billion national debt from the Crash of '97. A poll released after Thaksin's visit showed 62% of Thais believed the treasure was real. "The whole thing is a symptom of a society in crisis," says Sunai Phasuk, a former history lecturer at Bangkok's Chulalongkorn University. With Thailand's economy still in sorry shape, he says, "people don't have much hope, so they want the quick fix, the pot of gold." To many the Prime Minister looked like a sucker.

Tales of Japanese war gold have floated around the Thai-Burma border for decades. According to Micool Brooke, author of The Treasure of the Samurai, Japanese war veterans were arrested several times digging for loot near the Death Railway. Last year, six Thais suffocated while searching Lijia Cave.

- Time Magazine / April 23, 2001

[LaoPo]

I still find it amazing that the topic title has not been changed!

Death toll 4 Swiss 2 Thai 1 German 1 Briton and 1 Survivor (Briton).

I did send a report asking for it to be updated but it has been ignored, quite disrespectful realy.

You have a point here and I reported as well, after reading your message, but maybe because it's night now the Mods have missed it so far...?

LaoPo

Thanks Mods, for changing the Topic headline to accuracy.

LaoPo

[madjbs]

In the gold in the cave case, I don’t know if the Thais that died were real cavers or just villagers out to get rich. However, normally while caving in long deep systems such as the ones here, cavers use cigarette lighters to check the oxygen levels as they move along the cave. You don’t suffocate all of a sudden so you need to check the flame every so often. If it can’t light then get out quick.

Edited October 15, 2007 by madjbs

[Totster]

I still find it amazing that the topic title has not been changed!

Death toll 4 Swiss 2 Thai 1 German 1 Briton and 1 Survivor (Briton).

I did send a report asking for it to be updated but it has been ignored, quite disrespectful realy.

I still find it amazing that the topic title has not been changed!

Death toll 4 Swiss 2 Thai 1 German 1 Briton and 1 Survivor (Briton).

I did send a report asking for it to be updated but it has been ignored, quite disrespectful realy.

You have a point here and I reported as well, after reading your message, but maybe because it's night now the Mods have missed it so far...?

LaoPo

Topic title has now been changed, apologies for the delay.

Totster

[PadThaiGuy]

Why is the industry treated as a cash cow joke?

Most of the Thais involved in the tourist industry have zero repsect for their clients.

Racism is the answer.

They would put you on a bus to hel_l for a 5thb profit.

Why is it racist? If a Thai person is on the tour as well do they get some kind of secret warning?

The answer is about being greedy and stupid.

I say racism because I can speak some Thai and have overheard what they call us.

We are generally referred to as Dogs by people in the tourist industry.

[madjbs]

"They" being who exactly. Seriously though, exactly how much Thai can you speak?

[animatic]

THE SOUTH

Tidal waves, female tourist murdered and raped, civil war, ferry boats capsizing, farang mafia gangs in land scams, plane crash, female Russian tourists shot and murdered and now this latest incident.

Seems that the Southern provinces of Thailand is Jinxed.

THE TOWN

Steampipe explosion, flooded subways, tourist murdered by homeless men, women pushed under subway, local mafia in garbage scam, gang wars, 3 people killed execution style. And now duble shooting just a few blocks away...

Seems that New York City is Jinxed.

(please don't be a fearmonger)

Yes, ditto.

Bad stuff happens to good people every where.

It is truely sad about this, and yes it seems badly planned,

and the tour guides seem to have ignored the closed for rainy season signs.

But "The South" per se is a lot bigger and differentiated than the list above.

Any given 60 million people have a normal percentage

of rotten apples in the bunch

[donna]

there are no signs outside the cave saying that you cannot go in. there never has been. this information is incorrect.

Hello Donna,

o.k. it not helps the victims, but today I saw in German TV a warning sign in front of the cave in Thai & English.

Yes, this incident was reported in German news today.

Bagsida

hmmm. i wonder how long those signs have actually been there. i NEVER saw signs posted anywhere and wonder if they have suddenly appeared to protect someones ass? its possible.

lets assume that they WERE there then. how many people would take them seriously? come on, we all know what its like when we are on holiday. feeling a little adventurous and all. i would bet that if just ONE group member had questioned it, the others would have jumped on board too, especially as there were children in the group. i shall remain a doubing thomas on this one. sorry. of course, i can very well be wrong on this point.

[Galong]

usually when i went in to the cave, i had one guide (usually very experienced), the boat driver, myself, and often one more national parks guy with us. one person for a party of eight is simply not enough.

I don't mean to sound insulting, but please tell us how you knew your guide was 'very experienced'?

your questions arent insulting at all. i will do my best to answer them to the best of my ability.

the guides i were using were licenced guides (no, i know that doesnt mean a lot here, but it at least makes them legal). they had been working for the operator i was using for some time and did the cave walk a couple of times a week. by experienced, i do mean experienced on THAT particular walk. as for them being trained in outdoor adventure activities, i highly doubt it.

Did your guide:

1. Have at least two dependable waterproof sources of light for every person in the party and with fresh batteries in each light?

No. we did not have two per person. i made every group member take their own flashlight and made sure they had brand new batteries. i usually carried spares with me, as well as a spare flashlight.

2. Was your guide within talking distance to the party members for the duration of the walk... especially anywhere where someone could get in trouble?

when i was taking groups on that walk, i would have the NP guy or the boatman up the front, i would be in the middle and the guide would do the sweep at the back of the group. usually there was only 1 minute between the head and the sweep. in the difficult parts of the cave, we would all stop and do it one by one (especially at the steep waterfall drop in the middle of the cave) and i would have the group members swim two by two to the shallow water, leaving nobody to do it alone.

3. Were you given any sort of a briefing about exactly what you were getting into?

on my first training trip into the cave, i was given no instruction at all so i had no idea what the heck i was getting myself in to. as a result, i learned as much as i could and briefed my groups thoroughly on what they were getting in to. some people opted out of the cave walk after me telling them what they were in for, and i was usually thankful for that as i respect someone who knows their limitations.

4. Were you given any instructions about what to do if something goes wrong while swimming in the cave?

the guides didnt often do this, but i did it myself before going in. as i mentioned above, the most dangerous spot is that drop off in the middle, so i made them swim two by two to the shallow water. i always did a head count once everyone was down. if a swimmer did get into any difficulty, i always told them to try to get to an area of the wall where they could grab on to and wait for us. as mentioned earlier, we were usually never more than a minute behind them.

5. Did your guide have a proper first aid kit?

Yes. always.

6. Did your guide have any way of contacting help if there was an accident? Or at the minimum, have a person left behind who knew exactly what to do if you were one hour late? Two hours late? Longer?

as we were always staying at either Tone Toey or Ploen Pry, they always knew when to expect us back. both stations had a two way radio as far as i am aware and could contact the headquarters in the event of an emergency. im not sure what the situation is now though.

i am unsure as to whether they had procedures in place in the event of a group not returning.

This is a big part of what I do for a living, so I'm interested in just what sort of safety precautions were taken in your experience? I hope I didn't sound insulting... I'm just interested in how you answer my questions so I can feel better about at least one guide who did it properly. I'm sure they're out there.

my guides varied, but the BEST two guides in Khao Sok was a young bloke called You and also the husband of my friend, Aoo. These guys had the most common sense of all guides in the park in my opinion. in my opinion these two guys have passengers safety in mind at all times.

i guess that i am lucky that in over 5 years of tour leading i did not have one accident or incident that could be credited to the fault of a guide. the worst thing that happened to me was when we hit a submerged tree on the lake and the boat sank. with a hole the size of a football in the bottom of the boat we made it to shore before the boat was filled with water. no injuries and no loss of personal belongings. aside from that, nothing to mention.

i used to work for BHP in melbourne, and had the safety mentality drummed into me for years. i guess it rubbed off and i still put a lot of this into practice today.

Thanks...

Thanks for all of your answers Donna.

OK, so it sounds like you were a guide in some of your trips in Khao Sok. Having a Westerner on a trip who knows what the guests are about to get into and with the ability to describe what to expect makes a big difference. Having a 'sweep' guide is extremely important. In fact, the person in the back is the most important as they can see everything in front of them. The most safety conscious person in the group should be at the back. Walkie Talkies are helpful for bringing the group back together if the sweep decides that the group is getting to spread out.

By 'license' I'm guessing it was a TAT license which means absolutely NOTHING when it comes to safety, common sense or adventure touring. The TAT only knows how to fill planes and hotels. They're pathetic when it comes to everything else. But as you point out, that makes them legal, so the TAT should be included in the upcoming law suit. They need a wake-up call!

The park is closed for a week or so now. They don't need to close the park, they need to get all of the guides that go to the park certified and if they don't follow a strict set of guidelines there needs to be serious consequences. This will require enforcement, so I'm just dreaming. This will happen again I'm afraid. I am going to suggest to the park and the TAT (in other words waste my time) that they call in outside help for training guides to international standards. At the very least they should copy some of the guidelines for trekking and caving.

The company that lead this trip was Bamboo Company from the river area of Khao Sok.

Thanks again Donna...

[sriracha john]

Helena Carroll, 21, was the sole survivor from a party of nine exploring a cave complex in southern Thailand.

"I saw John's body in a box next to one of the Swiss girls."

"I can't believe my John is gone. I don't know what to do now."

"I want to go home as soon as possible, but I want to make sure John is taken care of."

"I have spoken to my family to tell them I am all right. John lost his father two years ago and his mother is on a holiday cruise."

"I hope somebody can tell her before she hears this on the news."

----------------

Trip of a lifetime: John Cullen, 24, wrote on his blog

----------------

The couple, who had met at primary school and had been together for four years, chose to go on a year-long holiday of a lifetime rather than put a deposit on a house.

They were six weeks into the trip when they visited Khao Sok national park in southern Thailand

----------------

The tragedy at the cave, where a German woman drowned five years ago, happened after several hours of monsoon rain.

*This is apparently in addition to the Belgian man who was also reported as having died in the same cave earlier.*

----------------

- Daily Mail (UK)

Edited October 15, 2007 by sriracha john

[taxexile]

Briton drowns in Thai cave saving girlfriend

By Thomas Bell and Andrew Drummond in Bangkok

Last Updated: 1:36am BST 15/10/2007

A young British woman was the lone survivor of a flash flood that swept her boyfriend and seven other tourists to their deaths in a cave in southern Thailand.

Helena Carroll after she was rescued from the cave

Helena Carroll, 21, of Solihull, Birmingham, told how she was left clinging to a ledge for hours after the freak wave washed through Nam Talu cave in Khao Sok national park.

The dead included her fiance, John Cullen, 24, a Swiss couple and their two teenage daughters, a 10-year-old German boy and two Thai guides.

Local reports said that before they had set off on Saturday, locals and other tourists warned the group not to enter the cave after several hours of monsoon rain had made it unsafe.

Last night Miss Carroll described how her boyfriend saved her life before slipping into the torrent and disappearing.

advertisement"One minute I was in what I thought was the most beautiful place in the world. The next thing there is death all around me," she said.

"I guess we had got half way through the cave I heard this sudden roar.

"I looked behind and saw this rush of water coming towards us. John and I started climbing. The first thing we saw was the tour guide and the German boy being dragged away, then the Swiss couple and their two lovely girls.

"As we climbed I lost my grip and slipped down but John grabbed me and pulled me up. We kept climbing higher and found a ledge.

"We were all alone in the dark. We could not see anything as all the torches had gone.

"John said, 'If we stay here we are going to die'. But I said we should stay. At least we were safe where we were. But he decided that he would get into the current and flow with it. He thought the current would take him out, then he could bring help to rescue me.

"He slipped into the water and that's the last I ever saw of him. He let go and he was just gone."

The 1,700ft-deep Nam Talu cave complex is set in spectacular scenery of jungles and limestone cliffs about 400 miles south of the capital, Bangkok. It is a popular tourist attraction because of its spectacular architecture and wildlife. But it is also a notorious death trap during the monsoon.

A owner of a local tourist lodge yesterday said that the cave was "too dangerous" to explore during the rainy season while the provincial governor, Winai Phopradit, said he had ordered for the cave to be closed before the accident happened.

"We have signs both in English and Thai warning tourists not to go into the cave during heavy rains," he said.

Reports said that a group leaving the cave complex had warned the Miss Carroll's party not to go in. Last night she said she was unaware of any such warnings.

"I was alone in the dark," she continued. "All I could see was insects that light up, like fireflies and hear the rumbling of the water. I sat there shivering all night. I had no idea what the time was.

She said she was told the others had been found at midnight local time yesterday, "eight hours before I was rescued".

"All of a sudden I saw a bright light. It was the light of a torch and so I started shouting 'Help. Help. I'm over here.'

"When I got out I was told that many people had died. They did not say I was the only person who had lived. Then they took me to a place which was being used in a mortuary.

"I saw John's body in a box next to one of the beautiful little Swiss girls. It was awful. I can't believe I am the only survivor."

Miss Carroll said she and Mr Cullen had decided to take a "dream holiday" of travelling around the world instead of putting the money down on a new house.

"I can't believe my John is gone. I don't know what to do now. I want to go home as soon as possible, but I want to make sure John is taken care of."

According to he local police chief, Phijarn Galayaseri, the mother of the German boy, Eddie Gaempe, had stayed behind because she was feeling unwell. "[she] did not think it was dangerous because there were many adults," he said.

"It was so sad," said Miss Carroll. "I saw the mother take her son wrapped in a plastic bag in a car to Phuket."

Miss Carroll's parents paid tribute to Mr Cullen, who was also the best friend of their son. Helena's mother Carol Caroll, 54, described Mr Cullen as "the loveliest guy you could ever meet".

daily telegraph uk

it is possible the warning was given in thai between the two guides , but the tour group were not told of it by the guide and given the information to enable them to make an informed decision whether to continue or not.

a poster held back from making a comment about trusting these (mostly) poorly trained unprofessional "guides"

i find it hard to believe that a guide , even one with no experience or conscience , would take small children into a cave like this , that entailed swimming in the dark and descending waterfalls.

can anybody be a guide here in thailand , what exactly is the training if any ?

on the news last night a thai official commented that westerners like to confront nature and enjoy an element of danger.

many people on this forum say they love thailand because there are no controls over what we can do here and we are responsible for what happens to us , they are glad to leave the nannying governance of the west behind them , that may be ok for those who come to live here , but tourists deserve some protection , they deserve some standards , the thais should really be putting some of the huge profits made from tourism into improving standards and ensuring compliance with them.

and journalists who write sugary articles for free magazines about how wonderful the hotels are here and how wonderful the restaurants are here and how happy and smiley the thai people are , should start to publicize how there are no standards here to ensure the safety of tourists when they ride in poorly maintained vehicles , driven by boozed up taxi drivers , taken on dangerous excursions by untrained guides , all overseen by profit motivated officials in league with the t.a.t who close their eyes to all this.

until professional journalists tell it like it is in the mainstream western media , nothing will ever change here.

in two days this tragedy will be forgotten and there will be no inquiry into it by the thais , there will be no findings or recommendations for improvements. maybe a bigger sign will be erected , but it will soon be taken down by the first guide to get 10 people signed up for a trip down the cave.

accidents do happen , but these deaths were unnecessary.

Edited October 15, 2007 by taxexile

[Galong]

Thanks a lot for you insight Taxexile... I agree with everything you said.

You said, "can anybody be a guide here in thailand , what exactly is the training if any?"

Yep, anyone who can come up with the large sum of money that it takes to get a TAT license. I wonder if these guides had a TAT license... there are a lot of guides who don't. If these didn't, that seems to me to be reason enough to put the director of their company in jail.

You said, "on the news last night a thai official commented that westerners like to confront nature and enjoy an element of danger."

Typical Thai shifting of responsibility. And, how the heII does this official know that Westerners like danger? This is entirely uncalled for and a very irresponsible thing to say... why am I not surprised though.

I'll bet that if the tourists in this group were told of the dangers that many, if not all, would have opted to do something else.

Your analysis of journalists is spot on too. They sugar-coat everything to appease the powers that be, afraid to offend anyone by telling them the truth.

I plan on contacting some outside media sources to see if they'd like to know the truth about adventure travel here and the facts about the Thais' attitude about safety.

This "accident" was completely avoidable. May their souls rest in peace...

[sriracha john]

But the British couple were oblivious to the risks when they set out from their simple cottages at Bamboo House

The company that lead this trip was Bamboo Company

Might I inquire as to your source of this information?

The news article cites Bamboo House in Surat Thani:

Lonely Planet Guide on Bamboo House

while you reference Bamboo Company:

Bamboo Company Tours website which is located in Trang, but does describe doing Kao Sok tours on their website.

Are these two entities connected? Or are you referencing a different Bamboo Company than the one above?

Edited October 15, 2007 by sriracha john

[Galong]

But the British couple were oblivious to the risks when they set out from their simple cottages at Bamboo House

The company that lead this trip was Bamboo Company

Might I inquire as to your source of this information?

The news article cites Bamboo House in Surat Thani:

Lonely Planet Guide on Bamboo House

while you reference Bamboo Company:

Bamboo Company Tours website which is located in Trang, but does describe doing Kao Sok tours on their website.

Are these two entities connected? Or are you referencing a different Bamboo Company than the one above?

My source was the manager of Grai Son floating bungalows on the reservoir. I asked more than once if he was sure about the name. He said yes.

Thanks for the correction. In retrospect I should have checked more sources before my statement... sorry. I'm very upset right now.

[donna]

Thanks a lot for you insight Taxexile... I agree with everything you said.

You said, "can anybody be a guide here in thailand , what exactly is the training if any?"

Yep, anyone who can come up with the large sum of money that it takes to get a TAT license. I wonder if these guides had a TAT license... there are a lot of guides who don't. If these didn't, that seems to me to be reason enough to put the director of their company in jail.

the TAT licence belongs to the company, but the guide must be licenced, and this certification is given upon completion of a TAT course. i do not believe that any first aid is included in this course (not that it would have helped in this case) and i do not believe that any adventure training is given. the guides in khao sok are mainly 'pink' cards - meaning that they are licenced to guide in seven provinces in the south.

You said, "on the news last night a thai official commented that westerners like to confront nature and enjoy an element of danger."

Typical Thai shifting of responsibility. And, how the heII does this official know that Westerners like danger? This is entirely uncalled for and a very irresponsible thing to say... why am I not surprised though.

I'll bet that if the tourists in this group were told of the dangers that many, if not all, would have opted to do something else.

I agree with your comment about shifting responsibility. guides should have the balls to say NO in favour of safety, and not fear having their pay deducted in the event of not being able to do a particular activity. (im not sure of whether this was the case, but it would not surprise me at all)

Your analysis of journalists is spot on too. They sugar-coat everything to appease the powers that be, afraid to offend anyone by telling them the truth.

anything to protect the valuable tourism industry on the eve of the biggest high season for some years.

I plan on contacting some outside media sources to see if they'd like to know the truth about adventure travel here and the facts about the Thais' attitude about safety.

i dont think its only the thais attitudes, galong. i have seen a few western leaders in thailand with little regard for their passengers safety.

This "accident" was completely avoidable. May their souls rest in peace...

[sriracha john]

But the British couple were oblivious to the risks when they set out from their simple cottages at Bamboo House

The company that lead this trip was Bamboo Company

Might I inquire as to your source of this information?

The news article cites Bamboo House in Surat Thani:

Lonely Planet Guide on Bamboo House

while you reference Bamboo Company:

Bamboo Company Tours website which is located in Trang, but does describe doing Kao Sok tours on their website.

Are these two entities connected? Or are you referencing a different Bamboo Company than the one above?

My source was the manager of Grai Son floating bungalows on the reservoir. I asked more than once if he was sure about the name. He said yes.

Thanks for the correction. In retrospect I should have checked more sources before my statement... sorry. I'm very upset right now.

Thank you for your response.

Do you know if the Bamboo Company is the same as the website given above?

[TAWP]

Why is the industry treated as a cash cow joke?

Most of the Thais involved in the tourist industry have zero repsect for their clients.

Racism is the answer.

They would put you on a bus to hel_l for a 5thb profit.

<deleted>, it's not about race, it's about profit.

Don't be so ignorant - ever noticed that the people being sent to UK and forced to work under slave-like conditions is done so by fellow Thais? Profit, not race.

Profit, even if walking over the death of others.

[taxexile]

i have seen a few western leaders in thailand with little regard for their passengers safety.

i thought westerners were prohibited from working as tour guides in thailand.

[donna]

i have seen a few western leaders in thailand with little regard for their passengers safety.

i thought westerners were prohibited from working as tour guides in thailand.

yes, you are correct. a westerner is not allowed to work as a tour guide in thailand. they ARE, however, allowed to work as a tour LEADER. there is a difference, albeit not such a big difference.

a tour leader SHOULD have a licenced THAI GUIDE with them at all times. many companies employ a 'sitting guide' which is used for legal reasons only.

a leader is able to advise their passengers on where to go and what to do. they are allowed to tell them things like 'the seven eleven is around the corner. if you want to do such and such an activity we can help you arrange it'.

once that tour leader starts talking about Thai culture and customs they are breaking the law as they are encroaching on the 'guiding' area which is reserved for Thais.

having said all that, i do know some western leaders who know a lot more about Thailand than their Thai guides. this is no criticism on Thai people at all, as we all know that people outside our own country can easily know much more than we do about it.

please lets not turn this into another work permit issue. lets keep it on topic as much as we can as this has been a very informative thread so far.

[lazeeboy]

i have seen a few western leaders in thailand with little regard for their passengers safety.

i thought westerners were prohibited from working as tour guides in thailand.

yes, you are correct. a westerner is not allowed to work as a tour guide in thailand. they ARE, however, allowed to work as a tour LEADER. there is a difference, albeit not such a big difference.

a tour leader SHOULD have a licenced THAI GUIDE with them at all times. many companies employ a 'sitting guide' which is used for legal reasons only.

a leader is able to advise their passengers on where to go and what to do. they are allowed to tell them things like 'the seven eleven is around the corner. if you want to do such and such an activity we can help you arrange it'.

once that tour leader starts talking about Thai culture and customs they are breaking the law as they are encroaching on the 'guiding' area which is reserved for Thais.

having said all that, i do know some western leaders who know a lot more about Thailand than their Thai guides. this is no criticism on Thai people at all, as we all know that people outside our own country can easily know much more than we do about it.

please lets not turn this into another work permit issue. lets keep it on topic as much as we can as this has been a very informative thread so far.

disaster after disaster and today there will be more people going to the caves ,money money money ..

[donna]

as reported earlier, i believe that the cave is currently closed.

[Tony Clifton]

Why is the industry treated as a cash cow joke?

Most of the Thais involved in the tourist industry have zero repsect for their clients.

Racism is the answer.

They would put you on a bus to hel_l for a 5thb profit.

<deleted>, it's not about race, it's about profit.

Don't be so ignorant - ever noticed that the people being sent to UK and forced to work under slave-like conditions is done so by fellow Thais? Profit, not race.

Profit, even if walking over the death of others.

Prosperity at all cost.

For the poster earlier who doubts a guide would take a child into the cave, you can see children acting as airbags, sitting in front of motorcycles carrying 4 passengers. You'll also see frequently expensive cars driving at breakneck speeds with children moving around freely on the back seat with no seat belts on, sometimes the parents even hold babies in their arms. No doubt there are NO second thoughts about bringing people of all ages in there if it pays.

[Bagsida]

The discussion about security, responsibility, warnings ......

I think we all have to know, that Thailand belongs to the "newly industrializing countries" and there is a lot to improve.

It was one more really tragic incident, but have you ever tried to walk as a pedestrian on a street on Phuket without a pavement ? The risk to be overrun by a truck or pickup shure is much higher as to be drowned in a cave - this happens every day in Thailand and in many other countries with low savety-thinkings, but many of these incidents are not interesting enough for the newspapers and you also not can find warnings like "to walk here might be dangerous" or "be carefull by using the pedestrian crossing because nobody takes care for".

Comparable tourism-accidents with boats, ships, caves, bus, jeep, diving also can be found in Egypt,Turkey,Greece,Tunisia (and all other african countries),Cuba, Dominican Rep. etc.

I also hope the Thai authorities wake up now and improve the security, beginning with antagonizing the "motorbike-gangs" - about the last attacks against tourists in Rawai and one Phuket-Expat who was murdered, you also can read in the Phuket Gazette.

<a href="http://www.phuketgazette.com/news/index.asp?ref=2006528162143" target="_blank">http://www.phuketgazette.com/news/index.as...f=2006528162143</a>

I hope, I hope, I hope the Thai authorities recognize the critical savety-situation and take fast steps to improve this - if not I see short-term or medium-term no good future for the tourism in these regions - I also think it would be helpfull if leading international tourism-companies, foreign newspapers, TV-Stations etc. set the authorities under direct pressure for more security like "if you not improve the situation within 2 month, we would have to look out for new destinations with better security for our customers for the next high season".

May be the first step for more savety on Phuket is the new Police-Headquarter, which is planned near by the airport.

Bagsida

Edited October 15, 2007 by Bagsida