Representing Your Home Country

[snowflake]

This just popped into my head now...

When I travel with my students to Malaysia, Singapore,Australia and different places in Thailand I always tell them that they have to behave. They ask me why everytime and I always answer.... WHEN FOREIGNERS or OTHER THAIS see you they, they judge where you come from by your behaviour. If you are bad, they think bad things about your home, do you like that? They will always say no and they do try to behave (they are kids, so it stops with the trying)

Now I thought about how some of the foreigners here in Thailand behave, I do understand that many Thais do not like us... Thais are in general very nice and friendly and when they are drunk they either pass out or go home to girlfriends or simmilar things... Foreigners on the other hand does not know when to stop, we drink and get louder, more aggressive, think we own the world... Drink untill we throw up and make a big scene... Some uses drugs and thinks that is ok, but is it all ok? We are here, we live here but should they accept everything that we do? would you accept that where you come from?

Where I come from drug usage is not legal, ANY DRUGS... If you get caught, you go to jail, simple... so for me no problems there... Then you have the dimwits that think since they come from a country where weed is "semiok" it is ok here as well, is it? NO... The laws of the country are very strict on this, use drugs, go to jail... Think Malaysia... I am white so I can use drugs???? no you are using drugs, you get shot or hanged, dont know how they do it but you die... simple...

Why can we not start to behave a little better and try to make them like us more and more... In the end, we came here, we have to adjust our ways of life... or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

Anyways, I am finished at the end of this year so for me the choice is made... But it wold be nice to leave here and know that people would say that I was a nice and polite guy who was friendly and respected the Thai way of life. And that may in turn be benefitial for the next person from my country that came here?

Any thoughts? or comments...

PS I DID NOT TRY TO WIN A SPELLING CONTEST HERE, SO DONT EVEN BOTHER...

[Tatler]

My little Snowflake,

I totally agree with you, too many so called teachers come to Thailand for a 1 year party and sometimes do a bit of teaching when they're not too pissed or stoned. I have done a 1 year working traveling visa in Australia and New Zealand which was two years of getting pissed up BUT i didn't have a job as a teacher or working at a school.

I think the problem lies with certain schools which only want young beautiful FARANGS to make there schools look good, again this is typical Thailand were the outside looks good but the inside is a f*cking mess.

[Logarhythm]

What's worse ? Getting aggressive, loud, thinking you own the world and throwing up when your'e pissed, or threatening to kill someone because they insulted you?

[londonthai]

you only represent yourself - diplomats represent their country.

teaching kids nationalism is rather a bad idea, you limit their development in the contemporary world

[Daren]

Smoking grass is Thailand is a crime and I think you would be hard pressed to find any one who would try to deny that fact. Certainly any one who stays here for an extended period of time is aware of the general Thai views on booze, drugs and cigarettes. But, just as in your country people choose to breaks certain laws and sometimes they're forced to face the consequences. Obviously most people get away with relatively minor offenses that's one reason why they continue to do them. Asking people to obey all laws, all the time is good but not realistic. Have you ever broken a law in Thailand?

As for the gentle nature of drunken Thais, I must whole-heartedly disagree. I have seen more violent, bloody massive brawls here in LoS than anywhere else in the world. Mind you I'm not British , but I have traveled a bit. And, I have never seen an entire nightclub, packed with 200-300 people, erupt into an shower of glass shards except in Thailand. Imagine what would happen to a venue in any western country if they had more than one massive bottle-chucking, all out brawl. Would they be allowed to continue business? Here in NST, I have seen over a dozen of these horrendously stupid fights (and not just at Fusion). Also, I have seen huge gang fights on the street in Phangan, Pattaya, Phuket and Bangkok... and, was it westerns doing the fighting? NO! Do you think alcohol had something to do with those fights? Probably.

As for your comments on respect and understanding, I think you're right. Cultural awareness and sensitivity are so important here or anywhere you go. But it's not my job to "fix" the perceptions of Farang by Thais nor am I bothered my prejudiced individuals form any country. Don't they have a word for it when someone dislikes another person based only on the color of their skin.......?

[markwhite]

I always tell them that they have to behave. They ask me why everytime and I always answer.... WHEN FOREIGNERS or OTHER THAIS see you they, they judge where you come from by your behaviour.

This appears to tell them that other people are judgmental and their opinions are more important than what they, as an individual, think.

Now I thought about how some of the foreigners here in Thailand behave

I have to agree with some of your sentiments here.

However I will also acknowledge that at times I have been a dope-smoking drunken shaggabout (more back in the UK when I was younger than now in Thailand), though I was never really prone to getting violent. So when I see people acting in ways like this, I realise that it reminds me of things I used to do but have put behind me now and try to extend to them the possibility that they are also just learning their own way of growing out of it.

Of course some people never do. It's a shame really - living your whole life like that and never realising that there's something different.

We are here, we live here but should they accept everything that we do? would you accept that where you come from?

I find the Thai people I meet and really get to know to be generally non-judgmental about other people, except when they talk from the heart which does not happen in public. I understand many others see this as a facade or fake face that hides the real feelings, but again I can recognise that in my own behaviour when I smile sweetly at someone who is being a pain in the backside, so maybe I understand why they do it.

As for 'should', well that's up to them in my opinion. Acceptance is something (along with patience and tolerance and those sort of things) that is the sort-of opposite to trying to control everything that happens to impinge on one's experience. People will be prats - you can't change it, so what is the alternative?

Why can we not start to behave a little better and try to make them like us more and more... In the end, we came here, we have to adjust our ways of life... or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

Behaving 'better' is accepting a label of 'good' living and then trying to exceed that. It means nothing except to those people who have previously defined 'good'. Trying to make people like you will often mean losing sight of what makes you like you. If you like making other people happy, excellent. If doing things to make other people happy causes you to be miserable, then you're on the wrong track in your life. It's not a 'fits all sizes' answer to life.

Living solely by cultural expectations is restrictive. If you cannot do something because it would be looked down on by others, you live your life through other people. I prefer to live life for myself. However this does not mean that I ignore all cultural expectations. I accept that if I wear shoes into someone's house, that I'm committing a cultural gaff of sorts. If I insist on wearing my shoes into everyone's houses knowing that I'm causing offense, then I'm being insensitive at the very least. But walking back into my house to get my car keys with my shoes on is not a problem for me. Other people with deep seated cultural issues might remove their shoes first, or feel some degree of guilt.

For me it's a question of balance. To be aware of what the cultural expectations are and the consequences of not following them. But to decide for myself what I do. Not to just do everything because others think I should.

But it wold be nice to leave here and know that people would say that I was a nice and polite guy who was friendly and respected the Thai way of life. And that may in turn be benefitial for the next person from my country that came here?

A sentiment I can appreciate, and I do like the word 'respected'. I believe this is something that can be reciprocated mutually and that Thai people remember that I am not Thai and respect me for having different ways.

As for it benefitting the next UK farang coming here...that's not in my mind. There might be some Thai people who truly believe that every farang coming here to teach English is the next Mark Karr or Christopher Neil and I won't waste my time trying to change the mind of someone with such a closed belief system.

I am me, and the person that comes next will be someone else. I cannot try to be someone I am not just to influence the way others think of me. If I make a mistake today, I will be a different person tomorrow. If people cannot accept that I am learning in my life, just as everyone is, then it really is not my problem.

All I can do is to be myself and accept what I am. Everything else comes from there.

[snowflake]

All of you make very good points indeed, but in the general should we as teachers try to behave a bit better than the rest?

I do know that the Thais can be bad with group fights and so, but that is their culture, never one and one... always gang/team against gang/team... Not saying it is good but that is a result of society and can not blame that... I have been to Fusion more times than anyone else here as I went there almost every night for the first 2 years here and I do have to say that it is getting worse and worse down there... I have stopped going there and I do not miss it at all...

My point is that we should perhaps strive to be better than them since we always claim that we are...

Logarhythm Posted 2007-10-19 14:58:03

What's worse ? Getting aggressive, loud, thinking you own the world and throwing up when your'e pissed, or threatening to kill someone because they insulted you?

I do know what you say but as we all know we are talking in general... faceloss in Thailand is a very serious thing and whoever does not respect that has a major problem... Besides that is just a personel think, I am talking more of a general behaviour among all of us...

Why do I constantly hate driving among Thais? because they do drive like shit and they do not give way... But then again, that is how it works down here... I did for a while have a very bad reputation when I drove a big bike down here like a lunatic with a death wish, and I do see that some of the foreigners here now are just like me. Very bad...

I do know that living and obeying all the rules are difficult, if not impossible... But trying should be one thing we all would do...

The drugs is another thing... Sure I do not mind people that smokes some shit and anyone can argue that its better than alcohol, but hey newsflash... Its still not leagal... If you get caught take it as a man and do not cry about how stupid Thais are because they caught you... Break the law, pay the price... Dont follow the messed up example that is on another Thai Teacher Forum... I do think we should all agree that if you do use drugs, and it is not legal, once should be prepared to pay the price, even if it is a jailsentence here in Thailand...

I have been many times tempted to break the laws in more seriuos terms but the fact that it is the law stops me... I do not wish to spend 5 min in a jail cell...

Thais are very judgemental and anyone who tells you different lies... They do look at you and you are measured the second they have had a 2 second look at you... They will judge you on the following criteria: HOW MUCH DO YOU HAVE AND HOW MUCH CAN THEY TAKE.... (There are ofcourse other factors as well)...

Anyways... I am now going to enjoy my rainy day and looks for jobs in Europe...

Would it be so hard to try to behave a bit better than the rest? To let the next farang that ends up here start of with a bit better reputation???

Edited October 22, 2007 by snowflake

[markwhite]

I'll throw a few thoughts in again then, but please take them in context of the discussion and not as a personal attack.

My point is that we should perhaps strive to be better than them since we always claim that we are...

Do you mean 'we' or are you referring to yourself?

You recently posted a few messages that were less than happy where you seemed to be questioning the "what's it all about" issues. If you're questioning yourself and your behaviour as a part of that sort of self-examination then fair dues to you - it's a activity well worth doing by everyone in my humble opinion.

If you are talking about the collective and generalised 'we', then are you the one setting the rules by which you think others 'should' behave?

I am talking more of a general behaviour among all of us...

Do you think the generalised 'we' really care?

The people who live here because some women's company can be bought or because they view Thai women as some sort of servile pleasure service are less likely to give a toss than people such as yourself who are at least questioning your or other's behaviour.

Or if you are talking about 'we' as teachers (I'm not, by the way) then it depends what you are trying to teach.

From the little I've been told chatting to people I know or have met who are teachers, they say that the approach to teaching English in Thai schools is rote, unadventurous, book driven, tedious, etc. That they 'teach'. They do not help pupils to learn (apologies to all teachers who are able to and do disagree with this - it's only what I've been told and read in forums).

If this is in any way accurate and you want to teach pupils to listen, do what they're told and conform, then I think the best way to go about it is for 'we' to listen, do what we are told and conform and set the example first. So I'd agree with you in general with what you are saying. Be a model visiting citizen and follow all of the rules.

Which is a reason why I'm strongly resisting all suggestions from people who meet me and say 'Why don't you teach English?' ;-)

I did for a while have a very bad reputation when I drove a big bike down here like a lunatic with a death wish, and I do see that some of the foreigners here now are just like me. Very bad...

You say 'very bad' now. Did you think it bad then but still do it anyway? What was your reason for doing it at the time?

I do know that living and obeying all the rules are difficult, if not impossible... But trying should be one thing we all would do...

At first I thought you were talking about customs, but when you say 'rules' I'm confused. Are you talking about morals, customs or laws? Or something else.

Thais are very judgemental and anyone who tells you different lies...

You have just passed judgement an entire country of people, and passed judgement on anyone who disagrees with you.

There's a phrase somewhere that's something like 'Before trying to remove the mote of dust from your brother's eye, first remove the plank from your own'.

Would it be so hard to try to behave a bit better than the rest?

Personally I find it reasonably easy. Other's don't, for various reasons.

There are things I can do in life and things I cannot. Changing myself, I can do. Slowly. Painfully. But I can and do change.

Changing others I cannot do. That's up to them.

[snowflake]

Mr. White,

The motorbike thing was a response to someone else...

I do understand what you say and I do agree with you on most of the items that you bring up. I do however still live in the fantasy land that we should all try to be a little better...

I am not saying that Thais are perfect-- FAR FROM

I am not saying that foreigners are bad -- FAR FROM

What I am trying to get out here, weather you are a teacher or not is that we should all strive to be a little better than the rest. I think as a foreigner here in Thailand we should try to act better and behave as well as we can. This is so that the Thais in the end will start to think in better ways about us and they might ease off on the VISA restrictions... and stuff like that... HEY we might even be able to buy land one day as well... (dont hope)

I know i am dreaming, kick me in the footballs and I will snap out of that dream...

[seonai]

Sounds like snowflake needs to melt a bit...

[markwhite]

Mr. White,

Shall we keep it formal then Mr Flake? ;-)

I do understand what you say and I do agree with you on most of the items that you bring up. I do however still live in the fantasy land that we should all try to be a little better...

And I hope it comes over that I can appreciate the sentiment behind what you are saying. My view is that by being what we are, and in achieving that will have come to understand what we are, we change without having to try.

I know i am dreaming, kick me in the footballs and I will snap out of that dream...

I put myself firmly in the 'romantic idealist' camp for many years, so I certainly won't knock you for doing something similar.

It appears we have two different opinions that overlap somewhat in agreement, but differ in other ways. I have no problem with that at all :-)

Mark...

[JaiRawnNitNoi]

For me personally, it all comes down to being a guest in the country. When I stay in Thailand, I feel very much like the way I feel when I am a guest in someone's home. I recognize that I don't fully understand the situation, and try not to cause offence. As I get more comfortable in the country, I feel a ltitle more relaxed and can loosen up a bit as I would in a good friend's home. But I try not to get loaded in public and keep my voice down, but still manage to enjoy myself.

I doubt that it can change much about how the Thais I meet feel about farang in general, but I try not to make things worse for others.

[ThaidleHands]

I doubt that it can change much about how the Thais I meet feel about farang in general, but I try not to make things worse for others.

Thank you. It would be nice if more farang felt this way.

[seonai]

Your nick gives it away a bit JRNN

[limbos]

This just popped into my head now...

When I travel with my students to Malaysia, Singapore,Australia and different places in Thailand I always tell them that they have to behave. They ask me why everytime and I always answer.... WHEN FOREIGNERS or OTHER THAIS see you they, they judge where you come from by your behaviour. If you are bad, they think bad things about your home, do you like that? They will always say no and they do try to behave (they are kids, so it stops with the trying)

Now I thought about how some of the foreigners here in Thailand behave, I do understand that many Thais do not like us... Thais are in general very nice and friendly and when they are drunk they either pass out or go home to girlfriends or simmilar things... Foreigners on the other hand does not know when to stop, we drink and get louder, more aggressive, think we own the world... Drink untill we throw up and make a big scene... Some uses drugs and thinks that is ok, but is it all ok? We are here, we live here but should they accept everything that we do? would you accept that where you come from?

Where I come from drug usage is not legal, ANY DRUGS... If you get caught, you go to jail, simple... so for me no problems there... Then you have the dimwits that think since they come from a country where weed is "semiok" it is ok here as well, is it? NO... The laws of the country are very strict on this, use drugs, go to jail... Think Malaysia... I am white so I can use drugs???? no you are using drugs, you get shot or hanged, dont know how they do it but you die... simple...

Why can we not start to behave a little better and try to make them like us more and more... In the end, we came here, we have to adjust our ways of life... or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

Anyways, I am finished at the end of this year so for me the choice is made... But it wold be nice to leave here and know that people would say that I was a nice and polite guy who was friendly and respected the Thai way of life. And that may in turn be benefitial for the next person from my country that came here?

Any thoughts? or comments...

PS I DID NOT TRY TO WIN A SPELLING CONTEST HERE, SO DONT EVEN BOTHER...

Snowflake,

Not so sure where you get your impression from that Thais go home and go sleep after a nights drinking. IMHO, Thais are most 'dangerous' when they get angry and all their cropped up emotion comes out in one big gulp and a lot of times this happens when they are drunk. One wrong word amongst (Thai) friends can cause them to get up, go home, not to sleep, but to get their knife and gun and do serious bodily harm to the 'supposed' offender.

Persoanlly, I prefer not to get drunk with Thais anymore. Not saying that some Westerners are real c*nts when they get drunk and behave like morons.

[canadiangirl]

I try to give people a positive impression of my country. I do my best to act politely and have some idea of local customs and values.

There are values from my own culture that I feel strongly about, and that I would potentially take a stand for, even if they are not the local values -- but I don't see the point in offending people over small things, where it would just be simpler to go with the flow.

It's about picking your battles, IMHO.

[Daylene]

Smoking grass is Thailand is a crime and I think you would be hard pressed to find any one who would try to deny that fact. Certainly any one who stays here for an extended period of time is aware of the general Thai views on booze, drugs and cigarettes. But, just as in your country people choose to breaks certain laws and sometimes they're forced to face the consequences. Obviously most people get away with relatively minor offenses that's one reason why they continue to do them. Asking people to obey all laws, all the time is good but not realistic. Have you ever broken a law in Thailand?

As for the gentle nature of drunken Thais, I must whole-heartedly disagree. I have seen more violent, bloody massive brawls here in LoS than anywhere else in the world. Mind you I'm not British , but I have traveled a bit. And, I have never seen an entire nightclub, packed with 200-300 people, erupt into an shower of glass shards except in Thailand. Imagine what would happen to a venue in any western country if they had more than one massive bottle-chucking, all out brawl. Would they be allowed to continue business? Here in NST, I have seen over a dozen of these horrendously stupid fights (and not just at Fusion). Also, I have seen huge gang fights on the street in Phangan, Pattaya, Phuket and Bangkok... and, was it westerns doing the fighting? NO! Do you think alcohol had something to do with those fights? Probably.

As for your comments on respect and understanding, I think you're right. Cultural awareness and sensitivity are so important here or anywhere you go. But it's not my job to "fix" the perceptions of Farang by Thais nor am I bothered my prejudiced individuals form any country. Don't they have a word for it when someone dislikes another person based only on the color of their skin.......?

I totally agree with you Daren... That's one of the reasons why I now avoid being in places where there's 80% drunken Thai men. They always would find something to argue about.. and they don't settle their arguments with their fists (which for me is a lot better than throwing bottles at each other like crazy kids...or worst, paying someone to have their enemies shot! ) Geez, even coming from another Asian country, I have never seen men act like they do here...