65% Of Voters Ready To Sell Votes

[astral]

Certain countries like to push Democracy as the way to move forward.

This post is a perfect example of why some nations are simply not ready for Democracy,

or if they do want it they have to educate their people not accept bribes in exchange for votes.

[Plus]

They (the Junta) wanted to build a just and fair society where government actually serves the people but no one wants it anymore.

That's hilarious!

So far I can't see any evidence to the contrary. Their adversaries tried very very hard to dig dirt on the junta and the government but after a year of digging all they came up is "he has more than one wife" and "he build a house in a protected area".

By any standard the current rulers have not taken the power for self-gratification.

That's a stark contrast with politicians who are supposed to "actually represent the people's concerns".

What's sad is that some people really believe in these political slogans.

[chownah]

I think the members of the military dictatorship want to install THEIR ideas about what a just society is....and so far they seem to think that they have the right to throw out anyone whose ideas are different from theirs.....let's not forget that "a just society" is not some singularly well defined thing...that's why there is so much political activity...people don't agree on what is "a just society"...the idea that the military should interfere with the people's struggle to get "a just society" because it disagrees with their own idea of "a just society" is exactly why ALL military dictatorships take over countries world wide....when was the last time that any dicator said "things were working well and a just society was well established but I thought I would just ruin it all and take over."...? It doesn't happen that way....ALL dictators take power to rectify the "unjust society" which they encounter and to create a "just society"......don't be fooled by their rhetoric.

Power to the people,

Chownah

Edited October 25, 2007 by chownah

[Plus]

Emperor, all the transgressions you mentioned, including the house, happened before Surayud took the office. He himself admitted to being a "reformed goon".

The fact, as it stands at the moment, is that they didn't take they power for themselves but for the country.

>>>

Chownah, junta's ideas of a "just society" are far closer to what I think it to be than that of any Thai political party running in these elections (apart from Democrats).

The alternative proposed by junta's opponents is a tight feudal network based on patron client relationships and unquestionable loyalty, the so called "Asian way".

Is it just? Well it is, as long as you are on the inside and the bosses are not abusing you. Everything else - the government, the law, the police - is subordinate to this network. The recent case in Yasothon where the local businessman's thugs beat up a policeman inside a police station with full consent of police chief is a glaring example of where power really lies.

The fact is that network is rotten to the core and the junta tries to stop it from legitimising itself through elections.

[ozzydom]

An interesting aside to this discussion,,, On BBC news last night Thaksin was quoted as saying that he would make funds available in JANUARY for his Manchester City manager to purchase new strikers...Maybe he is sure that his loot will be freed up following the election.....

[hammered]

An interesting aside to this discussion,,, On BBC news last night Thaksin was quoted as saying that he would make funds available in JANUARY for his Manchester City manager to purchase new strikers...Maybe he is sure that his loot will be freed up following the election.....

Id be surprised if he didnt have a lot of loot outside of Thailand already.

[John K]

They (the Junta) wanted to build a just and fair society where government actually serves the people but no one wants it anymore.

That's hilarious!

So far I can't see any evidence to the contrary. Their adversaries tried very very hard to dig dirt on the junta and the government but after a year of digging all they came up is "he has more than one wife" and "he build a house in a protected area".

By any standard the current rulers have not taken the power for self-gratification.

That's a stark contrast with politicians who are supposed to "actually represent the people's concerns".

What's sad is that some people really believe in these political slogans.

It's not very hard to find dirt on the Junta.

For example, men under Surayud's command were seen shooting protesters and dragging them through the lobby of the Royal Hotel during the military's brutal crackdown of Bloody May in 1992.

Doesn't sound like a "just and fair society" to me.

For human rights abuses alone this Junta have plenty of dirt all over them my friend.

I think you may be trying to take things out of context here. That was a different time with different scenarios. If you look back in your past I am sure you will find things you did that were right back then but wrong now. I think that is true in every persons life to some extent. That is not to say what happened back then with Sonthi was right.

[TAWP]

An interesting aside to this discussion,,, On BBC news last night Thaksin was quoted as saying that he would make funds available in JANUARY for his Manchester City manager to purchase new strikers...Maybe he is sure that his loot will be freed up following the election.....

Id be surprised if he didnt have a lot of loot outside of Thailand already.

Well, he _knows_ who's are gonna win and therefor knows he will be pardoned from anything he has done before.

[hammered]

An interesting aside to this discussion,,, On BBC news last night Thaksin was quoted as saying that he would make funds available in JANUARY for his Manchester City manager to purchase new strikers...Maybe he is sure that his loot will be freed up following the election.....

Id be surprised if he didnt have a lot of loot outside of Thailand already.

Well, he _knows_ who's are gonna win and therefor knows he will be pardoned from anything he has done before.

Maybe. Still a bit of a gamble though.

[John K]

An interesting aside to this discussion,,, On BBC news last night Thaksin was quoted as saying that he would make funds available in JANUARY for his Manchester City manager to purchase new strikers...Maybe he is sure that his loot will be freed up following the election.....

Id be surprised if he didnt have a lot of loot outside of Thailand already.

Well, he _knows_ who's are gonna win and therefor knows he will be pardoned from anything he has done before.

Maybe. Still a bit of a gamble though.

Gentlemen, I am astonished at you. Did you forget the primary rule about understanding what Thaksin says? Please take note of Tony Clifton’s avatar.

[Plus]

I'm taking nothing out of context, merely pointing out the present PM of Thailand was in charge of a group of men that shot at, beat and possibly murdered unarmed protesters in May 1992. Of course Surayud denies giving the direct orders but the fact he was in charge speaks volumes IMO.

I pointed it out because these are the kind of people that Plus and evidently yourself believe have the interests of the Thai people at heart.

It begs the question that, if they indeed have only the best intentions, why so many human rights abuses since they had the coup last year?

As far as the Giles book goes, the primary source of this allegation, Surayud was in charge of a group of soldiers who secured nearby hospital. They didn't shoot anyone but rough handled protesters where were hiding inside.

The "news" has been out for a year and no one picked up on it - there's nothing in it to implicate Surayud in any serious "rights violations". Fifteen years ago it was probably the norm all over the world and no one heard of crowd control and anti-riot training.

I won't be surprised if he was engaged in far more cruel practices in the height of anti-communist war thirty years ago. He is not proud of it.

[John K]

I am getting a bit confused in the direction of this thread or perhaps it is starting to drift slightly off topic. Can someone clarify where this is going and how it relates to vote buying. I am having a difficult time in seeing the connection with events in 1992 tie in with all of this. It appears I am missing some crucial bit of information to see the connection. Did the events in 1992 start the vote buying practice?

[Jai Dee]

Sonthi's panel unconstitutional: Chaturon

Chaturon Chaisang, an adviser to the People Power Party, yesterday called the special committee against vote-buying unconstitutional.

"The Cabinet should dissolve the panel," he said.

According to the charter, the Election Commission has the duty to ensure a fair election, not the executive branch.

That means Prime Minister Sonthi Boonyaratglin, who obviously wants to destroy the old power clique, should not have been appointed panel chairman, he said.

"Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont should re-assign a role for Sonthi. He should skip every task relating to the election because he comes from the junta," he added.

Source: The Nation - 27 October 2007

[John K]

I nearly fell of my chair Jai Dee on post #110. That is right up their with the stuff George Bush would say.

I can imagine the thinking process behind this one. I imagine it went something like this:

No vote buying!!! how can that be. How will we ever get back into office with that, its not fair. Nobody will vote for us unless we pay them. I better say something like it is not constitutional and blame someone else for this absurdity. Can someone bring me another Valium please the blue one not the yellow.

[Jai Dee]

I nearly fell of my chair Jai Dee on post #110.

I must admit, I raised an eyebrow when I read it the first time too.

[Plus]

Here's a more detailed descrtiption of what had happened:

"..Surayud, while he was serving in the armed forces in 1992, was partly responsible for the blood bath against unarmed pro-democracy demonstrators. He personally led a group of 16 soldiers into the Royal Hotel which was a temporary field hospital. Here, his soldiers beat and kicked people. News reports from the BBC and CNN at the time show soldiers walking on top of those who were made to lie on the floor."

http://www.isj.org.uk/docs/CFRbook.pdf

Give it a rest, Emperor, you are grasping at straws in your blind attempt to discredit Surayud. Why don't you acknowledge Surayud's achievments in cleaning and modernising Thai army during four years he was in charge, including his stated belief that the army should stay out of politics. It's all there, in you IHT article, why don't you pay attention to that?

There's no evidence so far to suggest that Sonthi's and Surayud's attempts at cleaning up Thai politics are not sincere. It wasn't the coup for themselves. They both wanted to "reset" democracy after cleaning up the "viruses and malware" and they haven't deviated so far.

>>>>

Vote buying is only one part of enticing voters to sway their decisions.

A company vying for a valuable government contract would do anything they can to get it. Simply handing out cash is often not the best way. Free dinners and entertainment, paid trips and hotels, building up "friendship" and "special relations", sabotaging competition - there are all sorts of tricks apart from pure business presentations.

Therefore governments all over the world have very strict bidding rules and if you get caught, you are busted. The same should apply to politics.

EC's recent campaign rules realise that better than we so far acknowledged on this board. They are trying to completely regulate all interactions between politicians and the public to prevent any kind of collusion. Interestingly, everyone is up in arms and Democrats are saying that restricting this public interaction would lead to comparative increase in value of "private" vote buying.

I do not have a position on that. The devil is in the details, but in principle I agree with the EC's idea as long as it leads to transparency and equal footing.

[Jai Dee]

There are some other developments and reactions to the EC's regulations posted in this thread.

[brahmburgers]

unfortunately, I can't vote in Thailand. But if I could, I'd sell my vote as often and for as much as possible. I'll set up a PayPal donation button and tell the heavies where to find it online.

[Tony Clifton]

Gentlemen, I am astonished at you. Did you forget the primary rule about understanding what Thaksin says? Please take note of Tony Clifton’s avatar.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[JetsetBkk]

I nearly fell of my chair Jai Dee on post #110.

I must admit, I raised an eyebrow when I read it the first time too.

I read it twice just to make sure. Then once more. Unbelievable.

Thailand is not ready for democracy. God knows - or Buddha - what it is ready for. Just more of same nonsense until the masses get educated.

[yeti]

And now answers to the same vote buying questions, by Thai politicians : Democracy for sale.

[John K]

Again I had to go back and read post #110. I now am certain that it qualifies as the post of the month.

[junkofdavid2]

By making a press release in advance that the majority of people of a country like for example, "Pakistan", would sell its votes, it would make it easier for the Pakistani government to later declare a "failure of elections due to vote buying", now wouldn't it?

And oh, is it considered vote buying when the Democrats offer all sorts of welfare benefits to the lower classes to buy their votes?

Oops! Nope! I forgot! That's not vote buying, that's just being "liberal"...

Edited October 27, 2007 by junkofdavid2

[hammered]

Mr. Ten Kate has a new piece up at Asia Sentinel:

http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?opti...9&Itemid=31

It mostly just runs through recent EC rule changes fro the election with a few quotes. Unfortunately no real analysis this time and nothing really new, but link provided for those interested.

[John K]

including his stated belief that the army should stay out of politics. It's all there, in you IHT article, why don't you pay attention to that?

A tad ironic that he is PM of a military junta then is it not?

I ask you again about the human rights abuses? Why, if they serve the people's best interests why the continuing human rights abuses?

Give it a rest, Emperor, you are grasping at straws in your blind attempt to discredit Surayud.

It's not the man personally I am trying to discredit, it's the whole junta and the machinations behind it.

Anyway, we are getting slightly sidetracked so I promise I won't criticise the Junta again on this thread...

Just for the record, can you list the ‘actions’ this junta did that were not moving the country toward democracy. I am not talking about floated ideas, but actual actions.

[blaze]

I nearly fell of my chair Jai Dee on post #110. That is right up their with the stuff George Bush would say.

I can imagine the thinking process behind this one. I imagine it went something like this:

No vote buying!!! how can that be. How will we ever get back into office with that, its not fair. Nobody will vote for us unless we pay them. I better say something like it is not constitutional and blame someone else for this absurdity. Can someone bring me another Valium please the blue one not the yellow.

Why is that so funny?

Would you entrust the supervision of fairness in the American election (or any other for that matter) to someone who has made it very clear that they are NOT impartial?

[John K]

It strikes me as funny because it is an open admission they plan to buy votes. It is a bit like showing you ID to the bank teller while robbing a bank. If it were a non issue to them nothing would have been said. Right up there with some of the stories I read on “crooks to stupid to live.”

The EC is the only one that has any pull here, so what the government wants has to get past them first. If you recall Thaksin manipulated the EC, and now they have been insulated and given powers they never had before.

All they are doing is looking for vote buying, and not just PPP vote buying. If the Democrats buy votes the same penalties apply.

[blaze]

It strikes me as funny because it is an open admission they plan to buy votes. It is a bit like showing you ID to the bank teller while robbing a bank. If it were a non issue to them nothing would have been said. Right up there with some of the stories I read on “crooks to stupid to live.”

The EC is the only one that has any pull here, so what the government wants has to get past them first. If you recall Thaksin manipulated the EC, and now they have been insulated and given powers they never had before.

All they are doing is looking for vote buying, and not just PPP vote buying. If the Democrats buy votes the same penalties apply.

Where in that article, is there an open admission that the PPP plans to buy votes? Did you not read the article? In fact, Chaturon says the same thing you did- that the responsibility for ensuring a fair election rests with the EC. NOT a special committee chaired by the Minister of the Interior- Gen Sonthi.

Edited October 27, 2007 by blaze

[John K]

It strikes me as funny because it is an open admission they plan to buy votes. It is a bit like showing you ID to the bank teller while robbing a bank. If it were a non issue to them nothing would have been said. Right up there with some of the stories I read on “crooks to stupid to live.”

The EC is the only one that has any pull here, so what the government wants has to get past them first. If you recall Thaksin manipulated the EC, and now they have been insulated and given powers they never had before.

All they are doing is looking for vote buying, and not just PPP vote buying. If the Democrats buy votes the same penalties apply.

Where in that article, is there an open admission that the PPP plans to buy votes? Did you not read the article? In fact, Chaturon says the same thing you did- that the responsibility for ensuring a fair election rests with the EC. NOT a special committee chaired by the Minister of the Interior- Gen Sonthi.

I see any action like what Sonthi set up as a policing action. Personally I don’t see that is wrong as it is typical with other forms of crime.

Who was it that brought the evidence to light from the newly installed security camera that started the downfall of the TRT? Was it an official, or just a regular Somchai?

It does not matter who finds the culprits. The PM has repeatedly asked the public to get involved in stopping vote buying even offering rewards. For that fact, you could go out and watch for vote buying.

I can recall several events in American history where the sitting president asked the American people to personally get involved.

As for an open admission to buy votes, this is a plain as it could be at least for me. Compare it to the bitching and moaning a smoker would do when they find another level of banishment has been imposed. Non smokers will say nothing because it has no negative effect on them.

Perhaps you can’t see it but then perhaps both you and I have had different schooling. For me I need to watch for things like this when working with someone. It is part of what I do to understand what is not being said.

[blaze]

It strikes me as funny because it is an open admission they plan to buy votes. It is a bit like showing you ID to the bank teller while robbing a bank. If it were a non issue to them nothing would have been said. Right up there with some of the stories I read on “crooks to stupid to live.”

The EC is the only one that has any pull here, so what the government wants has to get past them first. If you recall Thaksin manipulated the EC, and now they have been insulated and given powers they never had before.

All they are doing is looking for vote buying, and not just PPP vote buying. If the Democrats buy votes the same penalties apply.

Where in that article, is there an open admission that the PPP plans to buy votes? Did you not read the article? In fact, Chaturon says the same thing you did- that the responsibility for ensuring a fair election rests with the EC. NOT a special committee chaired by the Minister of the Interior- Gen Sonthi.

I see any action like what Sonthi set up as a policing action. Personally I don’t see that is wrong as it is typical with other forms of crime.

Who was it that brought the evidence to light from the newly installed security camera that started the downfall of the TRT? Was it an official, or just a regular Somchai?

It does not matter who finds the culprits. The PM has repeatedly asked the public to get involved in stopping vote buying even offering rewards. For that fact, you could go out and watch for vote buying.

I can recall several events in American history where the sitting president asked the American people to personally get involved.

As for an open admission to buy votes, this is a plain as it could be at least for me. Compare it to the bitching and moaning a smoker would do when they find another level of banishment has been imposed. Non smokers will say nothing because it has no negative effect on them.

Perhaps you can’t see it but then perhaps both you and I have had different schooling. For me I need to watch for things like this when working with someone. It is part of what I do to understand what is not being said.

Just show me in the article what specifically Chaturon said that indicates he wants to buy votes- he has said that he wants the full authority to ensure a fair election to rest with the EC. That doesn't sound like he wants to buy votes- it's the same thing you said.

My schooling taught me not to prejudge the motivation of others without evidence. No matter how attractive the urge to confirm my own prejudices. Though I suppose I could also rely on what is NOT being said- and what is NOT being done- and in fact what does NOT exist in reality- to come up with a whole range of things that support my 'theories'.