Will Thailand Always Be A Poor Country Because

[Prakanong]

pi is booming economically? huh? pi is less known to the world than los.

They are doing well with call centers and exporting nurses and doctors.

Not just nurses and Dr's - we have some Dr's but other senior researchers are working here from the PI.

I also know some PI guys setting up there own computer biz and getting a lot of work around the region - I know no Thai's doing the same thing.

I love Thailand dwarly but the PI seemed to have more buzz about it on recent visits with regard to call centres and IT work

Just look at the monthly remittance going back to PI from their oversea's workers - 2 billion USD a month - how much ios going to Thailand in foregien currency from the same sources.

As I said I do like Thailand and have mentioned that our BKK has some great people - its just that the PI is my dynamic from what i see in this area

[Prakanong]

a rising sea floats all boats -- it's not impossible that the next economic power of the world is somewhere in asia (china or india?), which would bring wealth into the region, no doubt boosting Thailand and other neighboring countries up in the process.

Really - India and China are going to be economic powers?

Yes - Thailand and the others will get wealthier too - the question is relativity.

We have Singapore - a developed country - growng at developing country rates of 7-8%

Thailand a developing country growing at rates of a mature economy.

Then you have to look at Thailands competition - Vietnam is rising fast - Malaysia has to import 2 million foreign workers.

Porter has done some work on competative analysis of nations but he dos have his critics

[JimmyCA]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

Country IQ estimate

Thailand 91

Philippines 86

China (PRC) 100

India 81

Thailand has a median IQ of 87, over 1 standard deviation less than the international norm. In other words, the median IQ in Thailand of 87, 50% higher - 50% lower, compares with the international norm 37% lower than 87 - 63% higher than 87.

[JimmyCA]

pi is booming economically? huh? pi is less known to the world than los.

They are doing well with call centers and exporting nurses and doctors.

Not just nurses and Dr's - we have some Dr's but other senior researchers are working here from the PI.

I also know some PI guys setting up there own computer biz and getting a lot of work around the region - I know no Thai's doing the same thing.

I love Thailand dwarly but the PI seemed to have more buzz about it on recent visits with regard to call centres and IT work

Just look at the monthly remittance going back to PI from their oversea's workers - 2 billion USD a month - how much ios going to Thailand in foregien currency from the same sources.

As I said I do like Thailand and have mentioned that our BKK has some great people - its just that the PI is my dynamic from what i see in this area

PI, although much more educated, is much poorer than Thailand as PI is more corrupt. Nice place, nice people but poor as dirt.

[Prakanong]

pi is booming economically? huh? pi is less known to the world than los.

They are doing well with call centers and exporting nurses and doctors.

Not just nurses and Dr's - we have some Dr's but other senior researchers are working here from the PI.

I also know some PI guys setting up there own computer biz and getting a lot of work around the region - I know no Thai's doing the same thing.

I love Thailand dwarly but the PI seemed to have more buzz about it on recent visits with regard to call centres and IT work

Just look at the monthly remittance going back to PI from their oversea's workers - 2 billion USD a month - how much ios going to Thailand in foregien currency from the same sources.

As I said I do like Thailand and have mentioned that our BKK has some great people - its just that the PI is my dynamic from what i see in this area

PI, although much more educated, is much poorer than Thailand as PI is more corrupt. Nice place, nice people but poor as dirt.

I agree with you but they do seem more dynamic to me currently - there seemed to be a buzz about the place that I do not pick up in Thailand now.

I have to admit I am biased by the people from PI I am in contact with though but that is the same for Thailand too - my boss id from ther PI as are 4 other senior people here in the regional HQ of this very large and successful MNC employing over 100,000 people!

The ones that do seem to get up off their <deleted> and do something when they get out.

[dog412]

<a href="http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations"" target="_blank"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations</a></a>

Country IQ estimate

Thailand 91

Philippines 86

China (PRC) 100

India 81

Thailand has a median IQ of 87, over 1 standard deviation less than the international norm. In other words, the median IQ in Thailand of 87, 50% higher - 50% lower, compares with the international norm 37% lower than 87 - 63% higher than 87.

if you could please explain that formulae to my Thai friends in Surin, then i will let them explain it to me, before i attempt to critique it. you gotta love knowledge!

[canadiangirl]

a rising sea floats all boats -- it's not impossible that the next economic power of the world is somewhere in asia (china or india?), which would bring wealth into the region, no doubt boosting Thailand and other neighboring countries up in the process.

Really - India and China are going to be economic powers?

Porter has done some work on competative analysis of nations but he dos have his critics

Well, like everyone else -- I don't know. I'm just hazarding a guess. Sorry, I don't know if you're being sarcastic here -- I guess it's pretty obvious that they are powers -- I just wonder if one of them will replace the US eventually.

I can't help but feel that the West has lost most of its animal spirits, while Asia has ambition to spare. I might be wrong.

Edited November 1, 2007 by canadiangirl

[LinkPopularity]

well, just check the growth of the middle class in Thailand and then this statement is proven to be wrong

[Prakanong]

a rising sea floats all boats -- it's not impossible that the next economic power of the world is somewhere in asia (china or india?), which would bring wealth into the region, no doubt boosting Thailand and other neighboring countries up in the process.

Really - India and China are going to be economic powers?

Porter has done some work on competative analysis of nations but he dos have his critics

Well, like everyone else -- I don't know. I'm just hazarding a guess. Sorry, I don't know if you're being sarcastic here -- I guess it's pretty obvious that they are powers -- I just wonder if one of them will replace the US eventually.

I can't help but feel that the West has lost most of its animal spirits, while Asia has ambition to spare. I might be wrong.

A common view is that China will replace the USA as the worlds larges economy sometime around the middle of the century - there are a lot of assumptions in that model though as there are in any opposing view.

Asia is certainly where its at now for growth and an exciting place to work - I do beleive we in the west have lost some of our drive and edge but thereis a lot put away in the bank so to speak after being in the ascendant for so many centuries.

We do live in interesting times and the next generation will even more so.

Look at the frae of China being built up in the USA - a bit like it did with Japan regarding trade in the 80's but China has the addition of the military and even the space race now. I can remember the rush for Japanese degree's in the 80's - is it Mandarin now?

[Prakanong]

well, just check the growth of the middle class in Thailand and then this statement is proven to be wrong

Yes the middle class is growing but at what rate and what is the % of middle class in Thailand now - urban and rural?

[dog412]

a rising sea floats all boats -- it's not impossible that the next economic power of the world is somewhere in asia (china or india?), which would bring wealth into the region, no doubt boosting Thailand and other neighboring countries up in the process.

Really - India and China are going to be economic powers?

Porter has done some work on competative analysis of nations but he dos have his critics

Well, like everyone else -- I don't know. I'm just hazarding a guess. Sorry, I don't know if you're being sarcastic here -- I guess it's pretty obvious that they are powers -- I just wonder if one of them will replace the US eventually.

I can't help but feel that the West has lost most of its animal spirits, while Asia has ambition to spare. I might be wrong.

if by "animal spirits" you mean intelligence, i think you are underestimating the value of the so called west. simple numbers say it to a point, 1 billion China, 1 billion India, and growing. of course with those numbers they are going to be "powers", if they become super, that will be partially up to them and theirs. may the powers that be grant them the insight of wisdom and charity, no matter what system they decide to call it.

[Heng]

I often wonder if those who are so critical of Thailand, and how they choose to do things, share their obsrervations with Thai neighbours - I suspect that most don't. It seems to me a bit appaling that people can be so ungrateful to a host country. It is probably all smiles and friendly chat in front of a Thai's face but once safely hid behind a computer screen, the disgruntled farang, can tell the world how the Thais are doing it wrong.

These people are quick to point out how the the west does things the proper way in regards to; education, work ethic,health, police ad nauseum, but isn't it strange how these same people continue to live in Thailand. I suppose some people get some type of satisfaction from looking down on their Thai neighbour and being critical.

IMO it's mostly therapeutic. The most common 'tell' is combining all western achievements from the Greeks to Motorola and saying 'where would you be without "us" ?' (somehow implying that he/she is related to Socrates or is a telecoms expat, apparently feeling unwanted or unappreciated), the same way some blacks like to try to take credit for their cultural contribution to music, or as silly as Arabs saying that they should be accepted in whatever society because 'you use Arabic numerals in everyday life,' or the Chinese saying 'where would you be without the magnetic compass or gun powder?,' etc. etc. In other words it's therapy for someone who apparently is questioning his/her own self worth but cannot bear to do so on an individual level, and thus tries to do so on a broader 'team' level.

had you really believed in , what i considered a great paragraph, you would not have felt the need to add the final sentence. individualism is a tough road.

There you go.

Next time, try electrical tape or magic marker.

[dog412]

your omission of the sentence

I often wonder if those who are so critical of Thailand, and how they choose to do things, share their obsrervations with Thai neighbours - I suspect that most don't. It seems to me a bit appaling that people can be so ungrateful to a host country. It is probably all smiles and friendly chat in front of a Thai's face but once safely hid behind a computer screen, the disgruntled farang, can tell the world how the Thais are doing it wrong.

These people are quick to point out how the the west does things the proper way in regards to; education, work ethic,health, police ad nauseum, but isn't it strange how these same people continue to live in Thailand. I suppose some people get some type of satisfaction from looking down on their Thai neighbour and being critical.

IMO it's mostly therapeutic. The most common 'tell' is combining all western achievements from the Greeks to Motorola and saying 'where would you be without "us" ?' (somehow implying that he/she is related to Socrates or is a telecoms expat, apparently feeling unwanted or unappreciated), the same way some blacks like to try to take credit for their cultural contribution to music, or as silly as Arabs saying that they should be accepted in whatever society because 'you use Arabic numerals in everyday life,' or the Chinese saying 'where would you be without the magnetic compass or gun powder?,' etc. etc. In other words it's therapy for someone who apparently is questioning his/her own self worth but cannot bear to do so on an individual level, and thus tries to do so on a broader 'team' level.

had you really believed in , what i considered a great paragraph, you would not have felt the need to add the final sentence. individualism is a tough road.

There you go.

Next time, try electrical tape or magic marker.

your omission of the sentence in question in your reply has nicely saved my tape and magic marker from unnecessary use. my lcd thanks you.

[thai thai]

Thailand did not invent the telegraph, the train, the telephone, the television, or the transistor...but I am convinced that it did invent 'Murphy's Law'...

Edited November 2, 2007 by thai thai

[elkangorito]

Who in bloody h3ll, wants Thailand to be like the Western "slave" countries? Who wants "all work & no play"? Of course, all this doesn't apply if you "invest" in the stock market, which basically means that others do all the work whilst you rake in the money. The stockmarket should be abolished...a western world "weak point".

[TonyLeung]

I often wonder if those who are so critical of Thailand, and how they choose to do things, share their obsrervations with Thai neighbours - I suspect that most don't. It seems to me a bit appaling that people can be so ungrateful to a host country. It is probably all smiles and friendly chat in front of a Thai's face but once safely hid behind a computer screen, the disgruntled farang, can tell the world how the Thais are doing it wrong.

These people are quick to point out how the the west does things the proper way in regards to; education, work ethic,health, police ad nauseum, but isn't it strange how these same people continue to live in Thailand. I suppose some people get some type of satisfaction from looking down on their Thai neighbour and being critical.

IMO it's mostly therapeutic. The most common 'tell' is combining all western achievements from the Greeks to Motorola and saying 'where would you be without "us" ?' (somehow implying that he/she is related to Socrates or is a telecoms expat, apparently feeling unwanted or unappreciated), the same way some blacks like to try to take credit for their cultural contribution to music, or as silly as Arabs saying that they should be accepted in whatever society because 'you use Arabic numerals in everyday life,' or the Chinese saying 'where would you be without the magnetic compass or gun powder?,' etc. etc. In other words it's therapy for someone who apparently is questioning his/her own self worth but cannot bear to do so on an individual level, and thus tries to do so on a broader 'team' level.

...'see? that's why I shouldn't have to leave every 90 days, should be able to own land, and why I don't think you should have your 'brother' sleeping over all the time.'

You nailed it.

[elkangorito]

........how the the west does things the proper way in regards to; education, work ethic,health, police ad nauseum, but isn't it strange how these same people continue to live in Thailand. I suppose some people get some type of satisfaction from looking down on their Thai neighbour and being critical.

garro, I generally agree with you but can't you recognise the difference between a western country & Thailand? I think you can. Whether you disagree or not, your list with my comments;

1] Education - for what purpose is education? Are the LIFE SKILLS of "cooking" or "how to get along with your fellow man" taught at school? Or are people taught the basics of how to become "corporate fodder"?

2] Work ethic - in the West, this means working yourself to death for a few bucks. Here in Thailand, it means being able to sustain yourself, even though you may still be "poor". Then again, what is the definition of "poor"?

3] Police - in the Western world, you can't scratch your bum without breaking a law. Here in Thailand, not only can you scratch your bum but you can avoid trivial problems by paying the right person an appropriate amount of money. This is called "looking after yourself", something that the Western world has rejected. Basically, you have to take responsibility for your own life here in Thailand. The Western "rules" allows one to avoid personal responsibility if "obeying" the "law".

At the end of the day, I'd sooner be in a "backward" country & have less stress than put up with all the regulatory crap of the Western world.

[TonyLeung]

did you have many problems with police back home elk?

[elkangorito]

did you have many problems with police back home elk?

No.

[TonyLeung]

did you have many problems with police back home elk?

No.

Well you commented on not being able to do anything back home without the police bothering you. If you havent had problems with the police back home what is the basis of your statement?

[peter991]

My thoughts on this topic:

1) Issan people will always be poor because of lack of decent education, excessive alcohol consumption, expensive loans, the lack of work ethic and the lack of planning for tomorrow. I could easily obtain two crops from my rice farm each year as I have abundent water - but the villagers would rather take life easily and only work a few months of the year, planting and harvesting one crop a year.

2) Honest city Thais will never become rich, because even with a university education it is very hard to obtain meaningful work. My partner is sitting for an examination tomorrow, along with 30,000 other people, hoping to obtain a permanent government position. There's 30 permanent positions available. Not great odds! The next chance he will get is in 2 years' time when the next examination is held. Lack of job security restricts your lifestyle.

3) Unequal rewards: Study hard and apply yourself - load yourself up with hundreds of thousands of baht in debt due to educational LOANS (not grants) and spend the rest of your life paying them off - OR don't do well at school, have no debts and escape to the entertainment/nightlife areas of Thailand, pick up a bit of English and make up to 30,000 baht a month working in a bar.

Peter

[TheDon]

My thoughts on this topic:

1) Issan people will always be poor because of lack of decent education, excessive alcohol consumption, expensive loans, the lack of work ethic and the lack of planning for tomorrow. I could easily obtain two crops from my rice farm each year as I have abundent water - but the villagers would rather take life easily and only work a few months of the year, planting and harvesting one crop a year.

2) Honest city Thais will never become rich, because even with a university education it is very hard to obtain meaningful work. My partner is sitting for an examination tomorrow, along with 30,000 other people, hoping to obtain a permanent government position. There's 30 permanent positions available. Not great odds! The next chance he will get is in 2 years' time when the next examination is held. Lack of job security restricts your lifestyle.

3) Unequal rewards: Study hard and apply yourself - load yourself up with hundreds of thousands of baht in debt due to educational LOANS (not grants) and spend the rest of your life paying them off - OR don't do well at school, have no debts and escape to the entertainment/nightlife areas of Thailand, pick up a bit of English and make up to 30,000 baht a month working in a bar.

Peter

Thats excatly the Isaan options for decent looking girls living around there.

Bangkok people have a better chance to make it and majority wouldnt even think about the bar for work. But in general I think Thailand is improving more over the years.

They have seem to of come along way in the last 20 years.

[kmart]

........how the the west does things the proper way in regards to; education, work ethic,health, police ad nauseum, but isn't it strange how these same people continue to live in Thailand. I suppose some people get some type of satisfaction from looking down on their Thai neighbour and being critical.

garro, I generally agree with you but can't you recognise the difference between a western country & Thailand? I think you can. Whether you disagree or not, your list with my comments;

1] Education - for what purpose is education? Are the LIFE SKILLS of "cooking" or "how to get along with your fellow man" taught at school? Or are people taught the basics of how to become "corporate fodder"?

2] Work ethic - in the West, this means working yourself to death for a few bucks. Here in Thailand, it means being able to sustain yourself, even though you may still be "poor". Then again, what is the definition of "poor"?

3] Police - in the Western world, you can't scratch your bum without breaking a law. Here in Thailand, not only can you scratch your bum but you can avoid trivial problems by paying the right person an appropriate amount of money. This is called "looking after yourself", something that the Western world has rejected. Basically, you have to take responsibility for your own life here in Thailand. The Western "rules" allows one to avoid personal responsibility if "obeying" the "law".

At the end of the day, I'd sooner be in a "backward" country & have less stress than put up with all the regulatory crap of the Western world.

More utter faux-hippy crap from this guy. The only thing stopping Thailand becoming a total authoritarian police state is laziness and ineptitude on behalf of the cops here. If you think avoiding responsibility for your actions by paying a bribe to the local cops is some sort of "highlight" of Thai society, then you better hope that the reverse of the coin doesn't happen to you, ie; someone pays the cops to f^ck you up for a few Baht. **flame removed***

[sonnyJ]

did you have many problems with police back home elk?

No.

Well you commented on not being able to do anything back home without the police bothering you. If you havent had problems with the police back home what is the basis of your statement?

He just likes the nice life here?

[TonyLeung]

did you have many problems with police back home elk?

No.

Well you commented on not being able to do anything back home without the police bothering you. If you havent had problems with the police back home what is the basis of your statement?

He just likes the nice life here?

What?

[mittheimp]

Are we discussing whether Thailand is a poor country, or its inhabitants are poor?

I have lived in Isaan for 7 years, and what I write below is based on my own observations from my village and many neighbouring villages

Thailand as a country is not poor. there are many natural resources, exports are good, but all the money earned is mismanaged either at a national level or a local level.

Sadly the majority of the people are destined to always be poor. The people of Isaan ,some 18 million strong, are nearly all poor, often of their own making. Most have little education, and what education they are given is not the best since teachers in the main realise the kids will either end up in farming or the sex industry, with just a few able to get work in Bangkok, shortly thereafter moving themselves to the more lucrative sex industry. Basic wages are low, those in the "entertainment" industry generally fritter away their large earnings, leaving their families back home just as poor as ever.

Those that do work in labouring jobs, whether near home or in the bigger cities, and they number many millions, not only earn around 200bt a day, but travel back to their homes regularly for every village wedding, death, lucky home party or similar, most of which last 3/4 days. Once home they are reluctant to return to work, so it is no surprise they rarely have any money. They often ask me why farangs have more money, but won't give up their work ethic and culture and work continuously 5/6 days a week as we have all done, foregoing all the parties during working hours. Western funerals last an hour or 2, whilst Thai ones require everyone to attend for 4/5 days. Most western weddings are on Saturdays and are just 1 day events compared to 2/3 days in Thailand. There is money there for making, but they need to change their thinking and move into the 21st century.

Debt is rampant out here in the Isaan villages. Many work just to pay off the interest on their loans which can run at 10% a month or more. Even the rice farmers borrow to buy fertiliser, and pay the workers to harvest the rice. They pay their interest in bags of rice, and frequently have only a couple of bags left for their own use.

Compared to workers in the west, the majority are lazy - work for a few days - drink for a further few days - borrow money to return to their work, and commence the cycle again.

So yes I believe they are destined to always be poor, and their children's outlook is no brighter, since they are not encouraged by their parents to better themselves.

Despite all the obvious poverty, they seem a happy and contented lot, which is more than can be said of most people on good salaries back in the west.

How is it of their own making not to be given a decent education?

Some observations you make are true... but isnt this pattern a result of their being very little realistic chance of social mobility - apart from, as you point out, through the sex industry?

Thais working in manual labour jobs in BKK and elswhere are expected to work 6 or even 7 day weeks, get no paid holiday and work generally through horendous working conditions.....i therefore disagree entirely with this sentence......They often ask me why farangs have more money, but won't give up their work ethic and culture and work continuously 5/6 days a week as we have all done To get a holiday the only option is often to quit the job as taking time off is not permited..

How many farangs have had to work under the conditions that the majority of Thais do? not many i think!

[garro]

The argument that the Thais are poor due to lazyness can best be described as a 'crock of shit'.

I have met plenty of social welfare claimants from Europe who can 'live like kings' in LOS.

There is no way that these people can be described as working hard for their money.

In fact I would say that Thailand tends to attract the least productive of the west's citizens.

Your average Thai will spend a lifetime working hard and still not have a nice pension to look forward to.

My father-in-law is in his seventies and still works on the land.

A teacher/nurse/doctor works just as hard in Thailand as they do elsewhere but get far less money for their efforts.

Industry is moving away from the rich west because they don't want to pay the high wage bills.

They know that they can get people to work much harder in places such as Thailand for a fraction of the cost.

I have read some ignorant posts on Thai Visa, but the argument that Thai people are poor due to laziness certainly deserves some recognition as medal-winning ignorance.

Edited November 3, 2007 by garro

[Edonista]

In fact I would say that Thailand tends to attract the least productive of the west's citizens.

As long as:

1) I am forbidden whatever manual work

2) I cannot own 100% of my business, yet I have to pay 100% to own 49% only

3) I must pay taxes on 600,000 baht minimum yearly income and must hire four Thais to get work permit and visa

you can bet I will stay zero productive !

[Austhaied]

Maybe i'll get slated for this..but it does seem to me that Thai's are generally a lazy lot, sure they work long hours and pays none to good but maybe it's just an attitude of mind if i'm working in a shop and theres no customers i'd go and sought some thing out, clean anything to relieve the boredom, Thai's always seem to be standing around doing sod-all! They seem to lack any initiative, maybe it's the heat or more likely an education sytem that does'nt encourage using your brains too much.

You shouldn't get slated for that. It's the truth unfortunately.

[pampal]

By and large the problems of the rest of the world are all self-made. - Look at Africa and the ethnic hatred, social strife, blatant greed, corruption, etc?

Btw; any slaves sold aboard Western ships were done so by African slave traders. Slavery is still rife in Africa even now.

One man's "culture" is another man's slavery.

Did  the artificial borders created by imperial powers have anything  to do with the hatred and strife you mention?

Did the puppet regimes installed by imperial powers to safeguard their interests do anything to solve these problems?

Did the slave demand in the US do anything to discourage Africans from the slave trade, if there is no market, then no product is necessary, or is that a wrong assumption?

Edited November 3, 2007 by pampal