Chiangmai Versus Bangkok For Retirement

[TheEmperorOfTheNorth]

I think the weather in Chiang Mai is the best in Thailand, period. Take your holiday in March.

It is irresponsible for the media to make predictions about things that they can't possibly know!

Actually it's a bit worse than that; a modicum of research would have given them the knowledge to report accurately (this type of haze lasts for weeks at worst, never months), but they declined. They are not worthy news sources. Sadly this included the BBC. Oh well. They're okay when it comes to Brit politics, but anything outside of their island and you're down to almost The Nation level.

[BlackArtemis]

I grew up a chronic asthmatic (nebulizer 4-5 times a day) Now I have been in Chiang Mai for 2 years and not once have I had a flare up or an attack. Currently I live within the old city and though there is more traffic here, still no proble and while I agree that last year was bad, it was not like that for the previous 2 marches I have been here. Furthermore, if you live out in San Sai etc the air is soooo crisp and clean, literally you can take a bike ride out and feel the quality of air change. Take a few trips up here and spend some time in both the hazy season and clear season before you make your decision

[cloudhopper]

If it's mountains and rivers, there just might be the perfect place for you within a few hours drive of cosmopolitan CM, in just about any direction...

[meadish_sweetball]

I think it's a good idea to have another location to live in for 2-3 months a year, to avoid the burning season. Personally, I really enjoy going to the islands during that period. Low season for tourism, and excellent water for snorkling and diving.

That being said, each year is different, and this year in Chiang Mai was the worst anyone can remember as far as I have heard.

The extraordinary weather conditions that caused this year's haze may or may not occur again for a long time, nobody can tell with any degree of certainty.

It is not too difficult to set up a fairly well insulated room/house with air conditioners that filter out most of the harmful particles. I stayed indoors most of the burning season this year and felt nothing as long as I did, (except having a sore throat for 2-3 days).

[stateman]

if you live out in San Sai etc the air is soooo crisp and clean, literally you can take a bike ride out and feel the quality of air change.

I had at one time decided to settle in Sansai/Maerim, until I found that there is an EQ center located underneath.

[camerata]

Choosing anywhere 6 or 7kms out of the city centre here will virtually guarantee you carbon-monoxide-free lungfulls. Look for the patches of grey/white or rust brown lichen growing on tree trunks. Most of our trees have them and you only see them in areas of Very clean air.

I guess 7kms out of town would be fine if there is reliable public transport. What kind of radius does the smoke from fires cover for the two months? I got bronchitis in Bangkok because I was stupid, but I've learnt to cope with the pollution here so I could probably do the same in CM. I'll have to go up there and check it out one weekend. I've only ever been there in November and December, never in February.

[camerata]

I think it's a good idea to have another location to live in for 2-3 months a year, to avoid the burning season. Personally, I really enjoy going to the islands during that period. Low season for tourism, and excellent water for snorkling and diving.

I definitely like the idea of not being in the same place all year.

It is not too difficult to set up a fairly well insulated room/house with air conditioners that filter out most of the harmful particles. I stayed indoors most of the burning season this year and felt nothing as long as I did, (except having a sore throat for 2-3 days).

For a couple of months I wore a good-quality face-mask in Bangkok which worked quite well.

[BlackArtemis]

if you live out in San Sai etc the air is soooo crisp and clean, literally you can take a bike ride out and feel the quality of air change.

I had at one time decided to settle in Sansai/Maerim, until I found that there is an EQ center located underneath.

And here I thought a free "magic fingers" added to my bed was a bonus!

[chiang mai]

Let's be perfectly clear, CM's pollution comes from a range of sources and living outside of the city will not negate all of them:

http://www.chiangmai-mail.com/077/features.shtml

The burning season is the most obvious source of prolonged airborne contamination by particulate matter but frankly the rest of the year is not too much better.

[camerata]

How is Immigration in CM? I have permanent residence so all I should need to do is get a re-entry permit once a year. I've never had any trouble with Immigration Bangkok and they seem to get more efficient by the year.

And how about the issuance of work permits, just in case I do find some kind of work? This is relatively painless in Bangkok these days.

[JuniorExPat]

Camerata

As I am sure you realize, it is absolutely necessary for you to come visit and allow the Chiang Mai TV'ers to physically present the evidence. You are obviously a long term resident of the Kingdom and I for one would enjoy picking your brain not least of all on PR in return for some local knowledge!

If you can handle Bangkok pollution with a suitable mask or whatever measure you take and you are happy to take trips if the climate/atmosphere is not so good (and it seems so from your posts) then I suspect that you will thoroughly enjoy Chiang Mai, the slightly more temperate climate, the ease of access to great countryside, the calmer pace, the lower cost of living . . .

In the burning season, if the pollution passes your threshold then I am sure that you will be able to cope long enough - as you have in Bangkok - to get a ticket out of town to visit the coast or the mountains for some cleaner air.

Discussing medical facilities always fires up a debate in these parts - I find Chiang Mai Ram to be good, some complain of unscrupulous pricing, there are several good facilities here each with their own crowd of fans and decriers (hmm did I make that word up?!). As a Thai speaker I am sure you will find the medical care almost if not equal to that in Bangkok. We do not have Villa or Foodland but we do have Tops and Rimping, we have UBC DSTV, True cable (in the more central areas) and the local WETV service, ADSL can be had from several providers and is probably not as good as in some parts of Bangkok but there are a plethora of packages (including via True cable) to choose from and reams of differing opinions in this forum on the quality of service as reported by local expat users for you to filter through . . . Charm? Charm we have in bucketloads in comparison to Bangkok and in bottles full in some cases (ref Friday night at Tuskers!).

We have Mad Dog for a mainly expat crowd, pizzas, breakfasts and lubrication - we have The Laughing Leprechaun for excellent food and a charming host, we have The Pub an historical landmark in farang culture, The UN Irish Pub, The Chiang Mai Saloon, The Gymkhana Club . . . . . however you may wish to avoid the expat crowd and enjoy the hospitable nature of the majority of those born and bred in Chiang Mai, there are more clubs, pubs, bars, waterfalls, temples, shops and markets than you can shake a stick at - your research trips should be brimful of places, people and things to explore.

As with most things in life: it's what you make it but Chiang Mai has a pretty good foundation to build on.

The appalling ageist remark by Wizzard of Oz is right on the money! However in recent years I feel that the average expat age has come down - it doesn't feel quite so much like Bournemouth or Costa del Pensioner these days!

All in all I would recommend that anyone who is considering moving to Chiang Mai heads south, south is good, south is better, head south young man!

JxP

[ThaiPauly]

How is Immigration in CM? I have permanent residence so all I should need to do is get a re-entry permit once a year. I've never had any trouble with Immigration Bangkok and they seem to get more efficient by the year.

And how about the issuance of work permits, just in case I do find some kind of work? This is relatively painless in Bangkok these days.

Immigration up here are great IMHO, maybee others will disagree but I have found renewing visas a very easy job here, and the Immigration staff are very freindly. but hey its a freindly place

I have lived in BK for a year bfore deciding to make CM my home and have never regretted it.

There is always something to do or somewhere to go ..life is never dull here if you don't want it to be.

Some good restaurants , good department stores.....and way cheaper than BK.

IMO just about everything is 30% cheaper than BK, except for cars.

If you want to socialise we have some very good TV piss-ups here that for me have lead to some long standing feindships as well.

[PeaceBlondie]

carmerata, the transport system is a big contrast. We've only had taximeters for a year or two, likewise real buses that go various unknown places throughout the city. I contrast it like San Antonio and Houston: the first has always had a population that used public transport; the second has always had folks with their own motor vehicles. But since you're fluent in Thai, you can figure out the songtaews, songlors, motosai taxis, buses, etc.

Ulysses G and I agree on so much that you might not know our politics are different. In normal years, unless you have acute and chronic respiratory problems, you'd only have to wear a mask about one month per year (you may already do that in BKK).

As ThaiPaully says, our immigration police office here is probably one of the best, esp. considering the big workload they have.

[Tyke]

It's likely that in a few years I'll be retiring in penury after spending most of my working life in Thailand, and therefore not eligible for a pension. That means I won't be able to afford my reasonably priced rented condo in the centre of Bangkok anymore. The options would seem to be move to Bangkok's cheaper suburbs or to Chiangmai. I've only been to Chiangmai once in the 70s, once in the 80s and once last year, but I like the place and the friendly people. However, I don't know much about living there.

What are the features that make CM a better place to retire than Bangkok? I have PR, so visa stuff isn't a problem. I don't drive in Bangkok because I live near a BTS station. I do appreciate the good medical facilities in Bangkok, shops like Villa, UBC cable TV and decent ADSL access, but the place has zero charm these days and the suburbs are boring.

Convince me that Chiangmai is better!

Having strong connections to both places, Bangkok wins hands-down. There are 100 times more choices of everything in BKK and if that's what u want you can actually live more quietly here. By that I mean in CM there is a stronger sense of community, but a lot of it is fake and not easy to get away from. All tose charity events, pub quizzes, team sports etc etc is a must to be avoided. However if u want to be seen as a big fish in a small pond then CM is for you! The problem with BKK is getting away by car or bike - horrendous. Again, BKK every time.

[Ulysses G.]

Bangkok is a big, ugly city, where Chiang Mai is more like a small town, but with good farang food, shopping, movie theatres, ect. and everything is cheaper.

Bangkok is fun for a few days, but I rather live somewhere else long term.

[meadish_sweetball]

It's likely that in a few years I'll be retiring in penury after spending most of my working life in Thailand, and therefore not eligible for a pension. That means I won't be able to afford my reasonably priced rented condo in the centre of Bangkok anymore. The options would seem to be move to Bangkok's cheaper suburbs or to Chiangmai. I've only been to Chiangmai once in the 70s, once in the 80s and once last year, but I like the place and the friendly people. However, I don't know much about living there.

What are the features that make CM a better place to retire than Bangkok? I have PR, so visa stuff isn't a problem. I don't drive in Bangkok because I live near a BTS station. I do appreciate the good medical facilities in Bangkok, shops like Villa, UBC cable TV and decent ADSL access, but the place has zero charm these days and the suburbs are boring.

Convince me that Chiangmai is better!

Having strong connections to both places, Bangkok wins hands-down. There are 100 times more choices of everything in BKK and if that's what u want you can actually live more quietly here. By that I mean in CM there is a stronger sense of community, but a lot of it is fake and not easy to get away from. All tose charity events, pub quizzes, team sports etc etc is a must to be avoided. However if u want to be seen as a big fish in a small pond then CM is for you! The problem with BKK is getting away by car or bike - horrendous. Again, BKK every time.

I never felt any pressure whatsoever to participate in charity events, pub quizzes and team sports here in CM.

[sabaijai]

Choosing anywhere 6 or 7kms out of the city centre here will virtually guarantee you carbon-monoxide-free lungfulls. Look for the patches of grey/white or rust brown lichen growing on tree trunks. Most of our trees have them and you only see them in areas of Very clean air.

I guess 7kms out of town would be fine if there is reliable public transport. What kind of radius does the smoke from fires cover for the two months? I got bronchitis in Bangkok because I was stupid, but I've learnt to cope with the pollution here so I could probably do the same in CM. I'll have to go up there and check it out one weekend. I've only ever been there in November and December, never in February.

The haze of the burning season covers the entire northern region and is most concentrated in agricultural areas. Seven kms or 70 kms outside of Chiang Mai makes no difference. Chiang Rai is just as bad, and Pai was worse during this past season. It's part of the northern experience. Happens in Isan too except there are fewer mountain valleys that capture and hold the smoke. The severity of the problem varies with wind direction. Low constant winds from the northeast - as we had last season - are the worst as they trap burning haze against the eastern escarpments of northern Thailand's main mountain ranges (to the west and NW or Ch Mai) while at the same time increasing the risk of carrying sparks from unattended, controlled burning into grasslands or dry forest underbrush, igniting larger fires and thus generating more smoke. If there are no winds the problem is not that noticeable (well, visually it is, but the SPM doesn't go above hazard levels) and if there are winds from the west or NW the haze can even clear away.

It's on everyone's minds these days because this year was one of the worst on record, due to a longlasting cold front from China creating the perfect conditions for a terrific haze. Mae Hong Son Province was far worse than Chiang Mai Province, i.e., it had the highest SPM counts. The post-200 SPM haze lasted one month this year, by the way. Not two months or more as some folks have implied.

I coped by staying in my a/c office more than I usually would. Next year if we see another bad conflagration of weather and smoke, I may escape to northern Yunnan.

March and April in the islands is not low tourist season, by the way. They are the second highest months, numberwise, after the Dec-Feb peak. It's the most popular time of year for Thai tourists and the islands also get a larger Easter crowd from Europe, America and Australia.

[Steve2UK]

Having strong connections to both places, Bangkok wins hands-down. There are 100 times more choices of everything in BKK and if that's what u want you can actually live more quietly here. By that I mean in CM there is a stronger sense of community, but a lot of it is fake and not easy to get away from. All tose charity events, pub quizzes, team sports etc etc is a must to be avoided. However if u want to be seen as a big fish in a small pond then CM is for you! The problem with BKK is getting away by car or bike - horrendous. Again, BKK every time.

Not wanting to knock Tyke, but I can't help wondering about/at the thinking that seems to lie behind these comments. CM is not a cruise ship nor yet a retirement home where the passengers/inmates almost can't escape being roped in to group activities. I have great farang friends (some I met through ThaiVisa and some not) and a wide, varied circle of Thai friends - after just over a year of living here. None of the farang friends would want to go anywhere near "charity events, pub quizzes, team sports etc" - and (probably) none of the Thai friends even knows about them. We mix (I could say pick and mix) just fine - and the "community" aspect (fake or otherwise) is no problem to stay away from - just as it's easy to stay 99% clear of the Thapae/Night Bazaar tourist nests.

My instinct is that the kind of person who does feel ensnared by the community (group, club whatever) is going to get that sensation wherever they go to live - it's probably part of their personal baggage. But then, I'm with Groucho Marx on this: "I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member." Similarly, my instinct is that the OP couldn't care less about being seen as a big fish............ any more than I could.

Finally, IMHO, I'm entirely happy with (say) half-a-dozen choices of (nearly) everything - suits me just fine. If that choice factor were major for me, I'd have wanted to stay in London - which makes BKK look provincial.

As they say: "up to you"................ the personal choices are there to be made.

[ShakaIsuzu]

I wonder where the 'community pressure' thing comes from.. I've lived in Chiang Mai for a long time, and have so far managed to avoid making Western friends.

Well, there's one guy who goes to the same pub as me that I sometimes chat with.. Don't feel any pressure there.

BTW, what is good about Bangkok is that it's centrally located within Thailand; you CAN actually get to a beach from there in an hour or two, without flying.

Edited November 17, 2007 by ShakaIsuzu

[Ricardo]

I had at one time decided to settle in Sansai/Maerim, until I found that there is an EQ center located underneath.

Actually it is about 30 km below us, which is quite a safe distance, really ... I hope !

[JimGant]

For those Yanks who were in Thailand during Vietnam, remember the first thing you heard about Chiang Mai: It has the prettiest girls, and with the longest legs.

Still does.

Problem is, all that pollution causes erectile dysfunction. So who cares......

[Cyberstar]

BTW, what is good about Bangkok is that it's centrally located within Thailand; you CAN actually get to a beach from there in an hour or two, without flying.

And from lower Sukkhumvit (the only livable place in Thailand in some people's opinion) - it takes how many hours to get to a nice and peaceful piece of unspoiled nature, where one can neither see, smell nor hear any motor vehicles? How long does it take to get to some high point (e.g. such a fancy thing as a mountain top) where there is no concrete in sight in any direction?

Edit// - Not to mention a beach where the view and general environment isn't dominated by motor vehicles, concrete and plastics.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Cyberstar

[Tyke]

BTW, what is good about Bangkok is that it's centrally located within Thailand; you CAN actually get to a beach from there in an hour or two, without flying.

And from lower Sukkhumvit (the only livable place in Thailand in some people's opinion) - it takes how many hours to get to a nice and peaceful piece of unspoiled nature, where one can neither see, smell nor hear any motor vehicles? How long does it take to get to some high point (e.g. such a fancy thing as a mountain top) where there is no concrete in sight in any direction?

Edit// - Not to mention a beach where the view and general environment isn't dominated by motor vehicles, concrete and plastics.

So how do u get to such places from Chiang Mai? Usually by motor vehicle obviously. If u really want to avoid all the things mentioned here then don't live in Chiang Mai - it's now more polluted than Bangkok and the traffic is nowadays about as bad in some parts. Better live in the countryside. I realise it is easier to get to such places from Chiang Mai, but then are are few parks in CM, unlike BKK which has some very nice ones. And there are many great places to live in Bangkok - riverside living is wonderful, as is around Sathorn Road. I really don't want to mention other jewels within a stone's throw of the centre in case it leads to a mass migration of farangs there.

[ShakaIsuzu]

BTW, what is good about Bangkok is that it's centrally located within Thailand; you CAN actually get to a beach from there in an hour or two, without flying.

And from lower Sukkhumvit (the only livable place in Thailand in some people's opinion) - it takes how many hours to get to a nice and peaceful piece of unspoiled nature, where one can neither see, smell nor hear any motor vehicles? How long does it take to get to some high point (e.g. such a fancy thing as a mountain top) where there is no concrete in sight in any direction?

Edit// - Not to mention a beach where the view and general environment isn't dominated by motor vehicles, concrete and plastics.

Oops, sorry for highlighting a good aspect about Bangkok. I'll disregard the lower-Sukhumvit issue though it's actually convenient for getting out of town as there's an expressway entry right there.

But anyway:

Khao Yai is 2-3 hours away

Ko Samet is 3-4 hours away.

Wong Amat / Jomtien / Had Sai Khao / Had Samae is 2-3 hours away.

Ratchaburi / Cha Am is 2-3 hours away.

Kanchanaburi is 2-3 hours away, Sangkhlaburi is a true gem.

Prachuap Khiri Khan is a bit further but it's brilliant; getting there from Chiang Mai is almost out of the question.

Isaan is 3-4 hours away.

So, effectively that means that when you start motoring 6am on your Saturday am (or Friday pm after work), you have a lot of quality tour time ahead of you in your weekend.

Honestly I seriously dislike Bangkok as a place to do anything other than make money, but the ONE good thing about it is that come Friday evening, you have loads of options for your weekend.

Edited November 18, 2007 by ShakaIsuzu

[PeaceBlondie]

So, effectively that means that when you start motoring 6am on your Saturday am (or Friday pm after work), you have a lot of quality tour time ahead of you in your weekend.

Honestly I seriously dislike Bangkok as a place to do anything other than make money, but the ONE good thing about it is that come Friday evening, you have loads of options for your weekend.

In other words, the best thing about Bangkok is that you can get the heck out of Dodge...within several hours of dangerous road travel. I enjoy 7 days a week in Chiang Mai.

[ShakaIsuzu]

In other words, the best thing about Bangkok is that you can get the heck out of Dodge...within several hours of dangerous road travel.

Exactly. Well, in my personal opinion anyways. I know lots of people who love spending time in Bangkok and never tire of all that it offers them.

I enjoy 7 days a week in Chiang Mai.

Me too.

Except when I'm unfaithful and find myself in Lamphun or Hong Kong or something.

Edited November 18, 2007 by ShakaIsuzu

[ShakaIsuzu]

Also, going by the numbers, other popular potential places to retire include Phuket and Pattaya.

[Tyke]

So, effectively that means that when you start motoring 6am on your Saturday am (or Friday pm after work), you have a lot of quality tour time ahead of you in your weekend.

Honestly I seriously dislike Bangkok as a place to do anything other than make money, but the ONE good thing about it is that come Friday evening, you have loads of options for your weekend.

In other words, the best thing about Bangkok is that you can get the heck out of Dodge...within several hours of dangerous road travel. I enjoy 7 days a week in Chiang Mai.

Heck,

cycling on Bangkok's roads, sampling the nightlife, seeing the bright lights from a high-rise well above the low-rise condos you get in CM. Watching the street theatre in Silom road, the myriad of restaurants, cinemas, theatres, etc etc all over BKK - and then occasionally making weekend trips to the countryside or a beach at weekends within a few hours using a wide choice of cheap public or private transport. Oh, and the shopping, oh the wonderful malls, supermarkets, local markets (Jatujak, Lumpini night bazaar, floating markets - and not just the famous ones - there's loads of them etc, etc). The parks, wonderful Lumpini, Railway Park, Jatujak Park. I fall asleep in CM - no time or desire for sleep in BKK. And Khao San Road, the river, canals in Thonburi, Ban Kra Chao. Wonderful Krung Thep, oh soooo boooorish CM. Of course u can get many things in places like London, but cum on getting them in Bangkok is so much better.

[PeaceBlondie]

The only time I went to the floating market, as a tourist, I was very disappointed that it was just a big scam. Chiang Mai condos get up to 20 stories high, and you can see Doi Suthep or Doi Sakhet from the fourth floor! If you get bored in CMai, you could get bored in BKK or Mexico City.

[Tyke]

The only time I went to the floating market, as a tourist, I was very disappointed that it was just a big scam. Chiang Mai condos get up to 20 stories high, and you can see Doi Suthep or Doi Sakhet from the fourth floor! If you get bored in CMai, you could get bored in BKK or Mexico City.

You obviously don't know about all the other floating markets - the ones Thais go to! There are few CM condos 20 stories high due to legal restrictions limiting them to up to 8 floors - Riverview(?) is one of the few that might reach that high. Hillside condo units reache about 15 and that's about it for the whole of CM. I have a condo near Doi Suthep and wouldn't know it was there - can't see it most of the year - due to clouds or pollution haze.

Oh I forgot - Bangkok actually has a seaside (not beaches, though) all of it's own not very far either - with wonderful local SEAFOOD restaurants perched above the waters with freshly caught fish - and i don't mean Pattaya. Few farangs know about that.

There is always something new and exciting to discover in or near wonderful Bangkok - if u take the trouble to find them.