Dark Days Are Ahead

[Mobi]

Even the revised, slightly moderated draft of the proposed Internal Security Bill (ISB), will effectively allow the state apparatus to fully control law and order within society by curbing the public’s rights to think differently and to say what they think. Opponents of the bill say it violates 10 articles of the constitution; is tantamount to signing a blank cheque to those in power, with the ISO Chairman having the power to arrest anyone without a court warrant, while officers acting under this law would be immune from judicial review. Ministers could exploit the ISB to transfer good, decent civil servants, with whom they didn’t get along. A former ambassador to London has said that Thailand will be considered a military state if the bill is passed in its present state.

Then there is the latest draft of the new Film and Video Act. This law will forbid people under the age of 25 to see certain movies. This law will give the State an unchallengeable right to ban films that touch on “The Nation”, “the Religion” and “The Monarchy”, notwithstanding the fact that there are already existing laws, such as the les majeste law and the anti obscenity law. This law will also forbid any Thai movies to be sent to screen out of Thailand without the approval of the Film and Video committee.

It just seems to me a little disconcerting that only a very small percentage of the population have any clue as to what is going on in Parliament, and what effect it may have on their future lives.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Mobi

[pumpuiman]

I agree. But I've given up worrying.......Corruption runs so deep nothing seems to matter, sadly.

But I believe the people feel that if things go wrong in government.......they can just stage another coup, start over.

A sorry state of affairs.

[meom]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Thais are quite creative when it comes to circumventing the law so I'm not to concerned yet.

[elkangorito]

Considering what the rest of the world is doing, we are not "currently" in a bad situation.

Georgia, Afghanistan, Zimbabwe, Venezuala, Myanmar, Pakistan, Turkey, Iraq (how could I forget them), Iran, North Korea, Russia...the list goes on. Most of these places (not all) are under dictatorial control. The dictators are clinging to their power & killing people in the process.

From what I saw of Thaksin when he was in power, he displayed all the hallmarks of a dictator, number one being control over the media. Then of course, his heavy handed & violent approach to "solving" the problems of the south. Let's not forget the thousands of alleged "drug dealers" he "fixed".

You are right. I just hope that the Thai people realise what is happening to their country & that they learn to recognise an "up & coming" dictatorship. If not, I'll move to the next non-western non-dictatorship country but I fear that the world is running short of these places

[WAERTH]

It is a trend unfortunately. And not just in non-western countries. Even in our countries back home governments push more and more silly laws to intervene in everyone's daily lives.

Waerth

[pointofview]

The Uk will fully ratify the EU Treaty next year thus handing over control of thier parliment, military, and police. Since its inception the EU has brought in 117,000 new laws (one hundred and seventeen thousand laws). Thjs basicaly means that any citizen of the EU is subject to arrest at any time should they step the wrong way - unless of course they are fully aware of all the laws.

The current US Patriot Acts 1 & 2 sare equally as scary.

God bless Thailand!

[Pepe']

Government is way out of control everywhere.

I think here in the US it's the worse because we do things under the guise of freedom, democracy and the pursuit of happiness kind of thing...

I think the US and GB set the standard because we, they claim to be the good guys...

[elkangorito]

It is a trend unfortunately. And not just in non-western countries. Even in our countries back home governments push more and more silly laws to intervene in everyone's daily lives.

Waerth

For example, the US Patriot Act.

Even John Howard re-introduced the "Les Majeste" law in Australia. Of what are these people afraid?

Remember that movie called "V". I believe the catch phrase was "A people shouldn't be afraid of their government. A government should be afraid of their people".

Edited November 10, 2007 by elkangorito

[pointofview]

It is a trend unfortunately. And not just in non-western countries. Even in our countries back home governments push more and more silly laws to intervene in everyone's daily lives.

Waerth

For example, the US Patriot Act.

Even John Howard re-introduced the "Les Majeste" law in Australia. Of what are these people afraid?

Remember that movie "V". I believe the catch phrase was "A people shouldn't be afraid of their government. A government should be afraid of their people".

Of course you have answerd your own question - they are afraid of the people. People are starting to wake up therefor the psychopaths (elite) and those that do their bidding (governments) are putting in place measures to protect themselfs!

[elkangorito]

It is a trend unfortunately. And not just in non-western countries. Even in our countries back home governments push more and more silly laws to intervene in everyone's daily lives.

Waerth

For example, the US Patriot Act.

Even John Howard re-introduced the "Les Majeste" law in Australia. Of what are these people afraid?

Remember that movie "V". I believe the catch phrase was "A people shouldn't be afraid of their government. A government should be afraid of their people".

Of course you have answerd your own question - they are afraid of the people. People are starting to wake up therefor the psychopaths (elite) and those that do their bidding (governments) are putting in place measures to protect themselfs!

Yes! The allure of "power" must be very strong for these people. I quite often wonder if they have any hobbies besides being "control freaks". My guess is that they are very bored & can't do what most people do...that is, get along with others in such a way as to inspire freedom of humanity as opposed to stifling it. Then again, in their minds, they must think that they are doing a wonderful thing in spite of all the massive demonstations etc against them.

Edited November 10, 2007 by elkangorito

[elkangorito]

As a matter of course, I try to invoke conversations about Thai politics with my Thai colleagues. This is invariably unsuccessful as they are more focused on being happy "now". Whilst this seems to be a logical thing to do (I mostly agree with this ideal), it does not seem to them that a government can abuse them. They don't seem to think about suffering.

As a further example of this, I asked my Thai students what they thought about riding motorbikes without helmets after 3 students died in motorcycle accidents within 3 months. The overall answer was that they understood that helmets can prevent death but what is the problem with death? I agreed with their answer but then asked them, "What if you don't die? What if you are a vegetable or permanently incapacitated in some way?" There was no answer to this.

EDIT: There was no "verbal" answer but there were looks of disdain on the faces of many. I think that they know the answer but are afraid to deal with it.

Edited November 10, 2007 by elkangorito

[ThaidleHands]

So, it's like Singapore without the prosperity?

[keemapoot]

So, it's like Singapore without the prosperity?

Yes, that's a good analogy, but it is more than that. Singapore is merely a City-State, and Thailand is a country the size of England or France. Yet, Singapore is a magnet for investment, which is the opposite of Thailand, even in spite of similar lip service to "democratic" principles.

Thailand exists in a vacuum, but luckily has a great tourism infrastructure, and automobile manufacturing to sustain a certain level of growth.

[meemiathai]

"What if you don't die? What if you are a vegetable or permanently incapacitated in some way?" There was no answer to this.

What if the presence of helmet made one a vegetable whilst without one one would have just died?

[ThaidleHands]

So, it's like Singapore without the prosperity?

Yes, that's a good analogy, but it is more than that. Singapore is merely a City-State, and Thailand is a country the size of England or France. Yet, Singapore is a magnet for investment, which is the opposite of Thailand, even in spite of similar lip service to "democratic" principles.

Thailand exists in a vacuum, but luckily has a great tourism infrastructure, and automobile manufacturing to sustain a certain level of growth.

No, Thailand has great tourism marketing. The actual infrastructure is a sad joke. The greatest problem of Thai tourism is overcapacity which inevitability leads to a lower quality experience. The reason this hasn't gutted the industry is three-fold: the cost of a vacation in Thailand has not gotten more expensive as quickly as other competing destinations; comparable destinations are behind the curve on marketing; there's still a large untapped market for first-time travelers from the West and elsewhere to exotic destinations, i.e. unsophisticated Asia travelers.

The most pleasant thing about Singapore, perhaps... you can go entire days there without seeing a uniformed policeman. And they never expect a back-hander for doing the job they were hired to do.

[Spee]

It just seems to me a little disconcerting that only a very small percentage of the population have any clue as to what is going on in Parliament, and what effect it may have on their future lives.

I'm really torn on this one. Personally, I'm about as anti-big government libertarian as they come. On the other hand, I think much of the Thai population is rural and based in small enclaves of a few dozen to a few hundred people.

I've spent more time in the Thai countryside that in the big cities. Although I hate generalizing, in the country, the biggest concerns seem to be food on the table, some beer and whiskey in the fridge, a few baht in the pocket, a functioning scooter or truck, a roof over the head and basic medical care for illness or injury. These things are generally available to most people. Relatively speaking, these are fairly basic needs which are probably impacted little if any by the style of central government in place.

It is on the regional and global scale where the government of an emerging country plays the biggest role in the country's future. Any responsible government has to be provide for basic infrastructure and defense, and not get in the way of allowing the economies to develop in the ways of the global free marketplace. This is the biggest fear that I see with the recent government trends.

These trends tend to cause isolationism, not because that is the goal, but rather because they drive away multinational corporations who may wish to conduct business there. So the "cause" of bad government results in the "effect" of corporations going elsewhere. This eventually flow down to the regional and local levels, putting straing on the economy, making it harder for small and medium businesses to prosper, and so on.

But the bottom line remains that for all of it's growth, Thailand is still basically a rural agrarian country. Rice and other produce, fish and other meats, are relatively plentiful and inexpensive. All of this has happened at will continue to happen regardless of the kind of central government. Compare that with many countries in Africa, where central governments are causing mass starvation within their citizenry. It's like night and day.

[keemapoot]

So, it's like Singapore without the prosperity?

Yes, that's a good analogy, but it is more than that. Singapore is merely a City-State, and Thailand is a country the size of England or France. Yet, Singapore is a magnet for investment, which is the opposite of Thailand, even in spite of similar lip service to "democratic" principles.

Thailand exists in a vacuum, but luckily has a great tourism infrastructure, and automobile manufacturing to sustain a certain level of growth.

No, Thailand has great tourism marketing. The actual infrastructure is a sad joke. The greatest problem of Thai tourism is overcapacity which inevitability leads to a lower quality experience. The reason this hasn't gutted the industry is three-fold: the cost of a vacation in Thailand has not gotten more expensive as quickly as other competing destinations; comparable destinations are behind the curve on marketing; there's still a large untapped market for first-time travelers from the West and elsewhere to exotic destinations, i.e. unsophisticated Asia travelers.

The most pleasant thing about Singapore, perhaps... you can go entire days there without seeing a uniformed policeman. And they never expect a back-hander for doing the job they were hired to do.

Some very good points. However, Thailand's allure is not just marketing, but also reality. The interesting cultural elements, the great beach resorts, and the abundance of naughty activities seems to be a potent elixir.

However, my point is that these things just go only so far. Then, you have to start exhibiting the characteristics of an important 70 million population country.

I think Thailand will fail at this.

[ThaidleHands]

It just seems to me a little disconcerting that only a very small percentage of the population have any clue as to what is going on in Parliament, and what effect it may have on their future lives.

I'm really torn on this one. Personally, I'm about as anti-big government libertarian as they come. On the other hand, I think much of the Thai population is rural and based in small enclaves of a few dozen to a few hundred people.

...

But the bottom line remains that for all of it's growth, Thailand is still basically a rural agrarian country. Rice and other produce, fish and other meats, are relatively plentiful and inexpensive. All of this has happened at will continue to happen regardless of the kind of central government. Compare that with many countries in Africa, where central governments are causing mass starvation within their citizenry. It's like night and day.

Governments will always oppress people to the maximum extent the people will tolerate. That will to resist oppression is in turn a function of culture, enlightened self-interest and access to political power or force of arms.

[ThaidleHands]

So, it's like Singapore without the prosperity?

Yes, that's a good analogy, but it is more than that. Singapore is merely a City-State, and Thailand is a country the size of England or France. Yet, Singapore is a magnet for investment, which is the opposite of Thailand, even in spite of similar lip service to "democratic" principles.

Thailand exists in a vacuum, but luckily has a great tourism infrastructure, and automobile manufacturing to sustain a certain level of growth.

No, Thailand has great tourism marketing. The actual infrastructure is a sad joke. The greatest problem of Thai tourism is overcapacity which inevitability leads to a lower quality experience. The reason this hasn't gutted the industry is three-fold: the cost of a vacation in Thailand has not gotten more expensive as quickly as other competing destinations; comparable destinations are behind the curve on marketing; there's still a large untapped market for first-time travelers from the West and elsewhere to exotic destinations, i.e. unsophisticated Asia travelers.

The most pleasant thing about Singapore, perhaps... you can go entire days there without seeing a uniformed policeman. And they never expect a back-hander for doing the job they were hired to do.

Some very good points. However, Thailand's allure is not just marketing, but also reality. The interesting cultural elements, the great beach resorts, and the abundance of naughty activities seems to be a potent elixir.

However, my point is that these things just go only so far. Then, you have to start exhibiting the characteristics of an important 70 million population country.

I think Thailand will fail at this.

I know Thailand will fail at this. Fact is, the beaches here are being trashed, the people are growing more surly by the year, the Land of Smiles is increasingly the Land of Scams, etc. Eventually the totalitarian regimes of the rest of mainland South-East Asia will fall, and Myanmar will offer an incredible array of unspoiled beaches and islands, Laos will offer the same cultural attractions at a fraction of the cost, and Cambodia will still be there to provide the naughty as well as a more motivated pool of workers.

The only reason Thailand is ahead at this point is the accidents of history, mostly British imperialism and American anti-communism; a level playing field would leave them behind very quickly. Ten years of democracy in Myanmar and Laos and it won't matter a whit if Bangkok sinks into the Gulf or not.

[elkangorito]

It appears to me as though the "uncivilised" (tongue in cheek) world MUST follow the western trends. I think that this is very sad because I so much enjoy being away from the western crap. Singapore, unfortunately, is simply an Asian country that has been largely westernised. I shall not be going there.

Many countries seem to fear the loss of their culture to western idealoligy (perhaps justifiably so), which is not at all an unreasonable fear. The only thing that I don't like is that "nationalism" seems to spring from this fear, which leads to such things as excessive censorship etc.

Fears do nothing but segregate the world. If only people realised that a culture is like anything...it has a life & death...that then we can begin to coexist in relative harmony. EVERYTHING has a life & a death.

Look at the classic example of religion. How many people & governments are acting violently to preserve a religious ideal? And for what reason? It doesn't make sense. Many people seem to think that there are only 2 choices...western culture or "original" culture, when this is clearly not the case.

[keemapoot]

Which colour shirt are you wearing tomorrow, yellow or pink? Everything else is heretic.

Edited November 10, 2007 by keemapoot

[lazeeboy]

So, it's like Singapore without the prosperity?

Yes, that's a good analogy, but it is more than that. Singapore is merely a City-State, and Thailand is a country the size of England or France. Yet, Singapore is a magnet for investment, which is the opposite of Thailand, even in spite of similar lip service to "democratic" principles.

Thailand exists in a vacuum, but luckily has a great tourism infrastructure, and automobile manufacturing to sustain a certain level of growth.

No, Thailand has great tourism marketing. The actual infrastructure is a sad joke. The greatest problem of Thai tourism is overcapacity which inevitability leads to a lower quality experience. The reason this hasn't gutted the industry is three-fold: the cost of a vacation in Thailand has not gotten more expensive as quickly as other competing destinations; comparable destinations are behind the curve on marketing; there's still a large untapped market for first-time travelers from the West and elsewhere to exotic destinations, i.e. unsophisticated Asia travelers.

The most pleasant thing about Singapore, perhaps... you can go entire days there without seeing a uniformed policeman. And they never expect a back-hander for doing the job they were hired to do.

Some very good points. However, Thailand's allure is not just marketing, but also reality. The interesting cultural elements, the great beach resorts, and the abundance of naughty activities seems to be a potent elixir.

However, my point is that these things just go only so far. Then, you have to start exhibiting the characteristics of an important 70 million population country.

I think Thailand will fail at this.

I know Thailand will fail at this. Fact is, the beaches here are being trashed, the people are growing more surly by the year, the Land of Smiles is increasingly the Land of Scams, etc. Eventually the totalitarian regimes of the rest of mainland South-East Asia will fall, and Myanmar will offer an incredible array of unspoiled beaches and islands, Laos will offer the same cultural attractions at a fraction of the cost, and Cambodia will still be there to provide the naughty as well as a more motivated pool of workers.

The only reason Thailand is ahead at this point is the accidents of history, mostly British imperialism and American anti-communism; a level playing field would leave them behind very quickly. Ten years of democracy in Myanmar and Laos and it won't matter a whit if Bangkok sinks into the Gulf or not.

not to far off with that quote.....

[ThaidleHands]

It appears to me as though the "uncivilised" (tongue in cheek) world MUST follow the western trends. I think that this is very sad because I so much enjoy being away from the western crap. Singapore, unfortunately, is simply an Asian country that has been largely westernised. I shall not be going there.

Many countries seem to fear the loss of their culture to western idealoligy (perhaps justifiably so), which is not at all an unreasonable fear. The only thing that I don't like is that "nationalism" seems to spring from this fear, which leads to such things as excessive censorship etc.

Fears do nothing but segregate the world. If only people realised that a culture is like anything...it has a life & death...that then we can begin to coexist in relative harmony. EVERYTHING has a life & a death.

Look at the classic example of religion. How many people & governments are acting violently to preserve a religious ideal? And for what reason? It doesn't make sense. Many people seem to think that there are only 2 choices...western culture or "original" culture, when this is clearly not the case.

You can take the opposite point of view and state with as much validity that Singapore is a Western country that was largely Asianized. The only difference is in whether you start the analysis from day-to-day household culture or the political culture.

In the usual sense, a culture rarely "dies". That typically only happens when the population falls below a critical mass and can't recover from a natural disaster or is subjected to genocide. Cultures evolve. Where did Norman and Anglo-Saxon-Jutish cultures go? They're here on ThaiVisa; we call them Englishmen and Americans and Australians, etc. Where did the dinosaurs go? One probably crapped on your balcony this morning; we call them birds.

[Spee]

It just seems to me a little disconcerting that only a very small percentage of the population have any clue as to what is going on in Parliament, and what effect it may have on their future lives.

I'm really torn on this one. Personally, I'm about as anti-big government libertarian as they come. On the other hand, I think much of the Thai population is rural and based in small enclaves of a few dozen to a few hundred people.

...

But the bottom line remains that for all of it's growth, Thailand is still basically a rural agrarian country. Rice and other produce, fish and other meats, are relatively plentiful and inexpensive. All of this has happened at will continue to happen regardless of the kind of central government. Compare that with many countries in Africa, where central governments are causing mass starvation within their citizenry. It's like night and day.

Governments will always oppress people to the maximum extent the people will tolerate. That will to resist oppression is in turn a function of culture, enlightened self-interest and access to political power or force of arms.

Yeah, I agree totally with your sentiments. The point I was trying to make is, where a government in Africa actively makes policy to starve half the population, well that is truly oppression. But is a typical rural Thai who was always had food, shelter, money and medical care (however modest in each case), really being oppressed by the central government?

Obviously there are many clear cases of corruption and oppression where people are denied opportunity to prosper, business do not have equal access to the marketplace, and so on. Definitely these things need to change for Thailand to prosper on a larger and more global sense in the coming decades.

[xyborg]

<br />

"What if you don't die? What if you are a vegetable or permanently incapacitated in some way?" There was no answer to this.

<br />What if the presence of helmet made one a vegetable whilst without one one would have just died?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

What if we crash tested 100 bikes with people on them using helmets and seeing what % did end up vegetables?. Id like to be a turnip!!

[TonyLeung]

They are not going to ban movies for people under 25 years old, my guess that its just a motion to extort money from whomever, similar to those laws not to long ago which banned the advertising of alcohol.

[Mobi]

Some interesting comments here.

Only one has commented on the 25 age rule for certain movies. Well, I agree it might not get passed into law, but the 'Movie" draft bill is already well advanced, and has already been revised after taking into account movie industry input etc. Yes, it might end up like the proposed law, a few years back, which would have imposed a 10 p.m. curfew on all Thais under 18 years old. That one almost reached the statue books..

We shall just have to wait and see, but the mentality of a government who would impose censorship on adults who already have the right to vote and are old enough to be conscripted into the armed forces is very worrying. I doubt there are many other countries who would seek to restrict under 25's from seeing certain movies.

Also worrying is the curtailment of freedom of expression and opinion and the right to criticise which will be imposed on movie makers. And clearly any movies which are even slightly critical of Thailand and/or its institutions, will not be allowed to be sent for screening out of Thailand. A lot of cheap, rubbish films are made here, but Thailand also makes some very good films, a few of which have won international awards. These have been made by independent producers, and are invariably critical of certain aspects of Thai culture/institutions, and show the suffering and injustices heaped on the poor. Undoubtedly these types of films would disappear under the proposed new law.

The ISB is worrying, not only because it will reaffirm totalitarian regimes, but because it will further stifle freedom of thought and a fundamental right to the truth - be it Thai history, geopolitical issues, or just a decent and honest education.

I agree with those that have said that for a majority of the poor, rural communities, their main concern is the food on the table and what simple luxuries they can acquire to provide them with a few pleasures in life. This is human nature.

But there will eventually come a time when the basic desires of the poor are satisfied, and then, they may well ask themselves why their human spirit is being suppressed by a far off, corrupt and militaristic central government.

[Payboy]

So, it's like Singapore without the prosperity?

no, its only like thailand without the make-up....

[Samuian]

I don't know the real problems - the days to come will be much, much darker - with or without whatever bill - then the days we have seen in the past.

this bill is part of the preparations - the get ready if this and that szenario happens and believe me it certainly will - wait till the elections are through!

and get ready for a bumby ride!

[wilko]

looking for an intelligent comment on Mobi's OP but sadly nothing there...most unsubstantiated crap and the (Pol?) pot calling the kettle black.