Thai men are almost the only topic for discussion in this forum girls...I m wondering though. Are they better than western men? In what ways? Is it our limited choice? Is it the dark skin and the smooth talking? All my western girlfriends have at some point of their lives been used,abused and brokenhearted by thai men. Still they keep going back for more... What makes them so special? How do they compare to farangs? Share your experience.maybe we can solve the mystery of the thai males together.

IMHO, they're not. Give me a decent, honest Western man over a S.E. Asian man or most other men any day of the week.

This isn't to say that Western men are not Asian or multi-ethnic, they were just born or raised or live or have been influenced in a positive way by Western values such as honesty, fair play, intimacy, and respect for women.

Before I get flamed, not everyone is going to agree with me, and I'm sure your S.E. Asian man is much different, and yes, there are some that are different, but after two years I'm still looking for him.

So a western man is better? I live in the states I know only a handful of guys that are decent including me You have good and bad everywhere have you not learned this by now. Plus some guys treat a queen like a whore and a whore like a queen players come to think of it

This being the thailand expats forum & this being the womens section, a lot of western women here will have had or have a thai b/f or husband. Whether they are better or worse is never the issue & something, I, as a moderator am consious not to start.

I dislike generlisations in all forms & asking why thai men are better than western men is the same as asking why the colour red is better than blue. Pointless. It's personal preference, I happen to be lucky to have met my husband, he happens to be thai & he happens to be a decent person.

I have had shit thai boyfriends in the past & shit boyfriends from other places too. I also have friends who have great boyfriends & husbands from England, South Africa, America, Germany, Australia, Malaysia, Ireland (you get my drift) the list can go on & on. Shall we start a topic about why Australian boyfriends are better than Englsih ones or Irish boyfriends are better than Swedish. No didn't think so, cause it would be a generalisation of a whole nation of people.

Having bad luck with blokes is usually a reflection of how you allow yourself to be treated. If your boyfriend is bad to you, who's fault is it if it continues, his for being a shit human being or yours for allowing it to happen? Personally I know my idea on the subject but you make your own way in life

Rant over

Whew! Boo, well said if a bit hard. But I tend to agree, my sister continually has bad luck with men (back home), but this is not because American men are so bad, merely because she makes bad choices. Personally, I think she picks men she knows will not work out because she is unwilling to commit fully to a relationship just yet. This way is easier, it is doomed to fail.

I konw why my guy is better than previous boyfriends but it has nothing to do with being Thai and everything to do with the fact that he is a decent, honest, trustworthy guy who treats me with love and respect. Did I get lucky? Yes, in that I met him and no, in that I wouldn't be interested in a guy who wasn't decent, honest, and trustworthy and who didn't treat me with respect.

This being the thailand expats forum & this being the womens section, a lot of western women here will have had or have a thai b/f or husband. Whether they are better or worse is never the issue & something, I, as a moderator am consious not to start.

I dislike generlisations in all forms & asking why thai men are better than western men is the same as asking why the colour red is better than blue. Pointless. It's personal preference, I happen to be lucky to have met my husband, he happens to be thai & he happens to be a decent person.

I have had shit thai boyfriends in the past & shit boyfriends from other places too. I also have friends who have great boyfriends & husbands from England, South Africa, America, Germany, Australia, Malaysia, Ireland (you get my drift) the list can go on & on. Shall we start a topic about why Australian boyfriends are better than Englsih ones or Irish boyfriends are better than Swedish. No didn't think so, cause it would be a generalisation of a whole nation of people.

Having bad luck with blokes is usually a reflection of how you allow yourself to be treated. If your boyfriend is bad to you, who's fault is it if it continues, his for being a shit human being or yours for allowing it to happen? Personally I know my idea on the subject but you make your own way in life

Rant over

Is this somewhat directed at me without actually saying it is?

In case it is directed at me in particular, or even no one in particular, let me backtrack for a moment. I already mentioned that I dated several S.E. Asians, including a Thai man, and am still looking. Do you know why? Precisely because I believe as you do that "If your boyfriend is bad to you, who's fault is it if it continues, his for being a shit human being or yours for allowing it to happen?" Let's just say I don't allow it to happen, which is why I am currently not in a relationship with any of them.

I think SBK is more on the mark, when she talks about making bad choices. That is definitely one of my major faults. I can make bad choices at home in the West, and here, however, in my experience, the bad choices here are much worse. Yes, I know there are good relationships possible here between western women and S.E. Asian men. I can believe this, although, in all honesty, I am skeptical of many of them. Or maybe I should say that I am skeptical of them for myself because I know I cannot gloss over many things. But I know there are individuals within cultures, and exceptions to everything, which is why I said I am still looking.

However, I think there are different cultural expectations (is that a generality, or a reality?). Is it really a generalisation to perceive and register obvious cultural differences of expectations and methods of dealing with conflict, love, relationships, government, money and just about everything? I mean, we are in Thailand, just start by reading the newspapers. Don't blast me for noting and stating the differences.

Personally, I don't fancy getting into intimate relationships within a culture that finds it acceptable to routinely lie about nothing. As a "general" rule, trust is not really a value here, and I find this problematic, especially within the context of close relationships. I'm sure on the reverse end of it, many of the men here don't fancy a relationship with a woman like me who analyzes and comments. So, it goes both ways. Secondly, the status of women and our place within the public and private sphere is much different. Thirdly, the way we are expected to navigate these differences is also much different.

This all being said, I know the powerful effects of falling in love and finding "the one", or that man. If I did, other parts of myself besides my head would begin to rule. This is natural. I experienced this myself, when I started to fall in love with someone here. And then the reality of how his culture treats women and what that meant about his behaviour toward me smacked me in the face. I've had great men and plenty of "bad" men in the West, but I've never felt like a sub-human as a woman until I came to Asia.

I think you may be a bit sensitive kat, my post wasn't aimed at you or anyone in particular, it was made as a reference to the generalisation that thai men were somehow better or worse than others.

Reading your posts though, I would like to say that making statements like,

Personally, I don't fancy getting into intimate relationships within a culture that finds it acceptable to routinely lie about nothing. As a "general" rule, trust is not really a value here

makes me wonder where you have been living in LOS & who you've been associating with & yes, is a gross generalisation. But if thats how you feel, then don't bother, be alone & enjoy your time in asia, don't subject yourself to the trauma & heartache of being disallusioned & disapointed all the time.

This part of your post interests me the most though;

Yes, I know there are good relationships possible here between western women and S.E. Asian men. I can believe this, although, in all honesty, I am skeptical of many of them. Or maybe I should say that I am skeptical of them for myself because I know I cannot gloss over many things.

Are you suggesting that relationships between western women & thai men are somehow dishonest or worth less than if they were with western men? You say you can't gloss over many things so I wonder if your suggesting that women like me & sbk do?

You say you can't gloss over many things so I wonder if your suggesting that women like me & sbk do?

Well, heck Boo, I gloss over things all the time! I try really hard to not look at my hubby's burgeoning tummy (or mine for that matter), I gloss over the fact that he snores like heck, and that sometimes he is inconsiderate (but then, who isn't sometimes? myself included). I suspect Kat's problem with SE Asian men isn't their cultural incompatibility but that same old thing I see over and over again in multi-cultural relationships; the unwillingness to compromise. Certainly I tend to do the "women's work" more than my husband, but my mom taught me a valuable lesson many years ago when we were first married. She and my father have been married nearly 40 years, mostly happily but also with some hard times. My dad is quite an old-fashioned man, he was raised by his grandparents in a rural area during the Depression and the War. Mom does alot of the "womens work". One day I commented on the fact that my dad gets up in the middle of the night to make a snack and leaves his peanut butter covered knife on the counter when he could easily put it in the sink. I then asked her if this didn't drive her crazy. She replied, "At first, it did but then I thought about it. There are alot of things your father does for me that I couldn't do myself. I think I can put his peanut butter knife in the sink. After all, it's only a small thing and why should our relationship have difficulty because of such a small thing as a peanut butter knife?"

The moral of the story? Don't sweat the small stuff. After all, that's all it is, is small stuff.

My husband doesn't lie or treat me with disrespect. I don't mind compromising some of my needs to meet his, nor does he mind compromising his to meet mine. If neither partner is willing to do this then obviously the relationship is bound to fail.

And then the reality of how his culture treats women and what that meant about his behaviour toward me smacked me in the face.

My husband comes from the same culture and he has never lied to me nor treated me disrespectfully. Does that say more about him or about your choices? Think on it, it is possible for Thai men to behave in an honorable, respectful way.

No, I do not mean to suggest that you and SBK gloss over things. I'm sorry if I seemed too sensitive, as you said. I think healthy relationships are possible here, and I said I think there are exceptions. Somewhere in my mind's eye I can visualize one of these healthy relationships, which is why I haven't completely given up. And I agree for the most part with SBK's sentiment that men are men, and she is just happy to find a man that treats her well and respects her. That is how I feel, but it just so happens that I am residing in Asia at the moment, not that I am trying to date a man from Asia. It was the same in the states - the few Asian men that I dated were just part of a social environment that I was a part of and we were attracted, but not because they were specifically Asian. I think it is possible, but definitely not easy. But no, it's not like I look at western women in relationships here and think that they've sacraficed themselves. Everyone has to make their own cross-valuations about what is important and not important in compromise.

In terms of my "gross generalisation" Boo, do you think I am making this up or stating this for my own convienence? It is much easier for me to deny that casual lying happens. Honesty is not a virtue in Thai society. Duty, honor, obedience, and familial loyalty are virtues here. So is saving face and observing the codes of patron/client relationships. Even the concept of love is different in S.E. Asia. Honesty and integrity are Western concepts along with the bundle of what we recognize as ethical behaviour. That bundle is different here and exists for different reasons under a different context. Granted, but that is not to say that the differences are non-existent.

There is also a different time and spatial construct in our perception of relationships. If you are considered a short-time or "outside" social contact, there is no duty to treat you as someone in the "inner" or longtime group. Emphasis is on maintaing harmony and face, not honesty. There is also a cultural avoidance of conflict, and of anything unpleasant. For anyone who lives here and has observed, these things are widely acknowledged. It is also widely acknowledged that foreigners in Asian societies will always be foreigners.

So, you still think I'm making a "gross generalisation" Boo? If that's the case, I will gladly give you a list of books that I have read over the last 2 years on Thai society, Thai history, Thai social critics, Western philosophers beginning with Polinus, Spinoza, and Plato, Thai literature, several books and numerous research papers on gender relationships in Thailand specifically, and to a lesser extent Asia, my direct experience dating several S.E. Asian men, and my professional experience where I had to interview over 200 S.E. Asians, mostly men, my personal observations from living here for 2 years, and my lurking and participating in other threads that deal specifically with foreigners living and conducting relationships in S.E. Asia.

We can even have a casual look at past indicators here. Why is Thailand one of the highest ranked countries for infidelities? Why are so many Thai women stranded with children? Why is Thailand one of the most intractably corrupt nations right now, according to several international surveys? Why are there so many stories of deceit and rip-off scams, long-term and short-term? Why do many of these scams even go up to the highest of the highest levels of government and society, to the point that it is an internationally recognized fact that Direct Foreign investment is very often ruled by cronyism and corruption?

Thai businesses can not even trust each other, because the undercutting is so incredibly fierce. Who do you think hires the hitmen that take out competitors and social activists on a regular basis? The attitudes which permit this to happen are so deeply entrenched down to the very roots of society, going back at least 150 years.

Does this mean that I think every Thai is a liar? No. I've been deeply touched by many ordinary Thais. HOwever, I'm under no illusions about where I am. What we call the truth is highly mutable here. People can criticize my own country's policies or culture in America, but if you state the truth, I can't deny it. There are generalisations that are true, but there are also explanations under the generalisations. How on earth do you talk about cultures and poltics without first analyzing generalities and working your way down from there? Try it, and you will find it impossible.

" ... makes me wonder where you have been living in LOS & who you've been associating with & yes, is a gross generalisation."

I've been living in BKK Boo, associating with all kinds of people, i.e. - educated, non-educated, professional, non-professional, etc. - just as I do at home. I know my candor rankles people, and unfortunately, I do dwell on the negatives here. That is why I know it is time for me to leave. When I am somewhere else and have time to reflect, I'm sure the good things about Thailand will haunt my memory the most. I've glimpsed what looks like good relationships here, I just haven't been lucky enough to find one. Much of this could be my choices or isolation here. Maybe I'm just not lucky or the problem is me, as you suggest. Maybe it's actually a combination. Or maybe what I say is true for some, and not true for others.

SBK - I really appreciate your comments, especially about your mom and the peanut butter knife. I can so relate to that story. And I can appreciate what you were saying about compromise. I don't judge. Afterall, women also have these kinds of discussions in the West about compromise, etc.

But I have to tell you that my troubles here are not in the least related to issues about multi-culturalism. I am about as multi-cultural as you can get without losing your mind, from a multi-racial and multi-ethnic background. I have had to think about race and identity long before I could even talk, so no, that is not it. Actually, maybe that background enables me to look at these things head on.

Kat, If you read you own statement you will see where I see the gross generaliasation. Does corruption, lying, infidelity, spousal abuse & abandonment not happen anywhere else, or is it only a south east asian thing? Are only western men honest, honorable & decent? That was the implication of your post & that was the generalisation.

"Kat, If you read you own statement you will see where I see the gross generaliasation. Does corruption, lying, infidelity, spousal abuse & abandonment not happen anywhere else, or is it only a south east asian thing? Are only western men honest, honorable & decent? That was the implication of your post & that was the generalisation."

No, Boo, most of those things happen elsewhere. Spousal abuse and gender violence are big problems in other countries, not only Thailand. Especially developing countries that don't see it as a problem or don't have the will to change the status quo. My father is latino, and he not only hit my mother on a regular basis, but spousal abuse is also a prevelant condition in other latino societies (I will get shit for saying this at home and around other latinos as well, btw). Then I come to Asia and find out gender violence and spousal abuse is prevelant here. Same thing in Africa. Same thing in every traditional society. There are problems in modern socities as well. No, I am not saying the problems don't exist elsewhere. Does that mean that I view latino men as wife beaters - no. But I know the shorthand of attitudes and expectations from my culture. I know the best and the worse.

But there are different degrees and scales to problems and situations. In South Africa, rape is out of control. The amount of misinformation about AIDS has led to child and even infant rape. This is painful, and I would like it not to be so. But my not wanting it to be so doesn't change that it is so. It just increases the odds that no one will ever do anything about it. In certain parts of South America, if a rapist offers marriage to his victim, he is absolved of the rape. In certain communities of the United States, violence is a daily reality. This violence includes a disprorportionate number of people from my ethnic group. Should I deny this? Or should I analyze the history and the social dynamics behind these conditions? If we don't do this, how can we ever remedy a situation or take responsibilty for what is ours?

It so happens that there are unique cultural and historical circumstances in Thailand, that contribute to its own unique set of social conditions and problems just like everywhere else in the world. And recognizing it and stating it isn't what makes it so.

Anyway, this is where I'm coming from, cheers Boo, nothing personal intended.