Can A Forienger File A Law Suit Here?

[Mcnerge]

Hi to all,

I was offered a position as Regional Sales Manager for a Thai/Foriegn Company here, about 4 month's ago. I was given a letter of appointment, and I flew to Singapore to obtain a Non-Immigrant Visa 'B' to obtain a work permit here, for this new postion, with a signed letter from my new Farang boss, to present to The Thai embassy in Singapore.

Upon my return to Thailand, the new employers said "wait first", my 3 mth NI Visa was near due to expire, after waiting nearly 3 month's, and still no new job..!!

They then asked me to carry out some marketing research, and obtain some new contacts for them, which I completed...still no job...and no payment for my services.

I went to thier Office on numerous occasions, asking what's going on..they just said, wait first..!!!

I have since found out that neither of the 2 Foriegn Directors have work permits themselves!!!, and it was indeed "illegal" for them to appoint me..I have a copy of the Company registration with both foriegners names on it, they have a company bank account, and have been working in this capacity for over 1 year now.."How can this be?.."

I have been out of pocket, awaiting this new postion for over 5 mth's now, and the stress and expenses a mounting. Do other members here think I have grounds (a case) to take them to court.

Thanks,

Frustrated Mcnerge.

[Scott]

It would sound like you do, but I am sure there are some attorneys that can respond to this.

I am surprised they would play by the rules to this point and then not get on with the rest of the procedure of getting you a WP.

Best of luck.

[Mobi]

Hi to all,

I was offered a position as Regional Sales Manager for a Thai/Foriegn Company here, about 4 month's ago. I was given a letter of appointment, and I flew to Singapore to obtain a Non-Immigrant Visa 'B' to obtain a work permit here, for this new postion, with a signed letter from my new Farang boss, to present to The Thai embassy in Singapore.

Upon my return to Thailand, the new employers said "wait first", my 3 mth NI Visa was near due to expire, after waiting nearly 3 month's, and still no new job..!!

They then asked me to carry out some marketing research, and obtain some new contacts for them, which I completed...still no job...and no payment for my services.

I went to thier Office on numerous occasions, asking what's going on..they just said, wait first..!!!

I have since found out that neither of the 2 Foriegn Directors have work permits themselves!!!, and it was indeed "illegal" for them to appoint me..I have a copy of the Company registration with both foriegners names on it, they have a company bank account, and have been working in this capacity for over 1 year now.."How can this be?.."

I have been out of pocket, awaiting this new postion for over 5 mth's now, and the stress and expenses a mounting. Do other members here think I have grounds (a case) to take them to court.

Thanks,

Frustrated Mcnerge.

As a farang in Thailand, your lack of 'local knowledge' can be a very expensive lesson, and companies can mess you around with virtual impunity.

In theory, you should be able to sue. In practise you would need a very good, expensive lawyer, and your chances of success would still not be good, and in any event it will take forever to go through the Thai courts.

Also don't forget that technically, you were in breach of the labour law by undertaking market research work etc. before you were issued with a work permit.

My advice is to write it of to experience and start afresh.

[monty]

Not sure if it will actually help you, but the directors can be arrested for working illegally, just on the proof of the signed papers you have.

It is illegal to sign any company paper when inside Thailand without holding a work permit (yes, even for those holding a house in company name, if a lawsuit ever happens, all your signed papers are deemd void if you did not hold a WP!)

[bendix]

I tend to agree with Mobi. You would have a case, but I doubt if it's worth pursuing it unless you had deep pockets or believed they had them.

Frankly, I think you should post the name of the company. I half suspect I know who it is already, but I could be wrong.

[taxexile]

My advice is to write it of to experience and start afresh.

but not before you advise the immigration/labour depts. of these people working illegally.

its your public duty !!

[Mcnerge]

My advice is to write it of to experience and start afresh.

but not before you advise the immigration/labour depts. of these people working illegally.

its your public duty !!

Thanks for the input,

What would be the best way to report these guys, as I understand it, they need to be "caught in the act", sometimes the office is not open, in Northonburi, as both of them travel to Suphanburi where the main house is, and the Thai farm workers are getting paid only 100baht a day too...It makes me even more angry, typing, what I know, and what they are getting away with.

Mcnerge.

[britmaveric]

I think you are partially responsible who would wait 5mo and given the constant end around? Proper firms do not act is such fashion. You should have told them to stuff it after two weeks.

[Manchester]

Could you not write a letter to them.............stating all of your costs involved and the work you have done?

Point out to them that you have now realised the signed contract was never valid due to them not having the required WP?

That failing a satisfactory financial offer you will have no choice but to consult a lawyer?

I,m sure they would have alarm bells ringing.

Just a thought.

[Mobi]

My advice is to write it of to experience and start afresh.

but not before you advise the immigration/labour depts. of these people working illegally.

its your public duty !!

Thanks for the input,

What would be the best way to report these guys, as I understand it, they need to be "caught in the act", sometimes the office is not open, in Northonburi, as both of them travel to Suphanburi where the main house is, and the Thai farm workers are getting paid only 100baht a day too...It makes me even more angry, typing, what I know, and what they are getting away with.

Mcnerge.

I reiterate my advice to chalk it up experience.

I know and appreciate that you are very angry and aggrieved- but again please bear in mind this is Thailand. These farangs may well be breaking the law, but they may also have very good Thai contacts and influence. It really isn't worth it. Don't forget you also technically broke the law, and it might be you who ends up in jail - or worse. Believe me, it can and does happen.

Start afresh and try to forget about it.

[Stephen Cleary]

My advice is to write it of to experience and start afresh.

but not before you advise the immigration/labour depts. of these people working illegally.

its your public duty !!

Thanks for the input,

What would be the best way to report these guys, as I understand it, they need to be "caught in the act", sometimes the office is not open, in Northonburi, as both of them travel to Suphanburi where the main house is, and the Thai farm workers are getting paid only 100baht a day too...It makes me even more angry, typing, what I know, and what they are getting away with.

Mcnerge.

Whereabouts in Suphanburi? What is this 'main house' thing?

[kat]

Mobi gives very good advice. It isn't wise to start making threats in LOS, especially to those who seem to carry on with impunity.

Edited November 12, 2007 by kat

[Mcnerge]

My advice is to write it of to experience and start afresh.

but not before you advise the immigration/labour depts. of these people working illegally.

its your public duty !!

Thanks for the input,

What would be the best way to report these guys, as I understand it, they need to be "caught in the act", sometimes the office is not open, in Northonburi, as both of them travel to Suphanburi where the main house is, and the Thai farm workers are getting paid only 100baht a day too...It makes me even more angry, typing, what I know, and what they are getting away with.

Mcnerge.

I reiterate my advice to chalk it up experience.

I know and appreciate that you are very angry and aggrieved- but again please bear in mind this is Thailand. These farangs may well be breaking the law, but they may also have very good Thai contacts and influence. It really isn't worth it. Don't forget you also technically broke the law, and it might be you who ends up in jail - or worse. Believe me, it can and does happen.

Start afresh and try to forget about it.

Thanks Mobi,

I guess you are right, though the law states you can work here under a non-immigrant b visa, whilst your work permit is being processed, " I think" that would cover me for carrying out some marketing services for them, during that period.

I'll just forget about it, as I am aware these guys "do indeed have connections" BUT, it would be pleasing just to have them deported..and then put it down to experience.

The main reason I stuck around waiting so long, is because, they dangled a huge carrot, with high income and new untaped market products..so they are fools unto themselves. it could have worked for them if they played by the rules.

Mcnerge.

[taxexile]

though the law states you can work here under a non-immigrant b visa, whilst your work permit is being processed, "

is that correct ??

[Mobi]

though the law states you can work here under a non-immigrant b visa, whilst your work permit is being processed, "

is that correct ??

I doubt it - but even if that were so, if the company had not really made any attempt to apply for the permit, then you would be in trouble. Ignorance of what they were or weren't doing is no excuse. Further, they could claim that you were aware of the law, and decided to work illegally. It would be their word against yours and they are the ones with the connections.

I hope it all works out for you,Mcnerge, and good luck.

[vegas]

Many years ago I met a bloke in a bar, (yes I know) and he told me he was making premier league football shirts under licence for Puma in Australia and he was frustrated by the fact that his 'local' employees couldn't get the job done and were cheating him. He asked me if I would work for him and he would pay me 80k a month. I was earning 11k at the time so thought all my Christmases had come at once. He told me it would take a while to organise so as I needed to go back to Oz as 11k was not paying the bills. I told him I would be in touch.

It took 9 months and dozens of phone calls before the guy told me he was ready to go and that I should fly to Bangkok and meet his business partner at the Honey Hotel. I'm not completely thick and was somewhat dubious, but decided that as I needed another Thai fix, that I should try my luck.

To cut a long story short, the business partner was not at the hotel and when I called the guy in Australia, he was not home but I spoke to his wife who told me that they didn't have any business in Thailand. I hung arouond for another 5 months before finally finding another dubious person who offered me a job, but again not right away so I had to go back to Australia. Again.

I returned 9 months later to meet with this 2nd dubious person and he told me that he was not ready right now and to go and do something and wait for him, which I duly did. 5 months later and completely out of money, he called me and told me to come in and sign a contract. This guy was in fact legit and I worked for him for 18 months until the financial crisis hit in 97.

Again I returned to Australia and found yet another dubious person who promised me a job, but not right away......

Needless to say I am still here and have been gainfully employed for the past 5 years and just bought a house.

[ThaidleHands]

My advice is to write it of to experience and start afresh.

but not before you advise the immigration/labour depts. of these people working illegally.

its your public duty !!

Thanks for the input,

What would be the best way to report these guys, as I understand it, they need to be "caught in the act", sometimes the office is not open, in Northonburi, as both of them travel to Suphanburi where the main house is, and the Thai farm workers are getting paid only 100baht a day too...It makes me even more angry, typing, what I know, and what they are getting away with.

Mcnerge.

I reiterate my advice to chalk it up experience.

I know and appreciate that you are very angry and aggrieved- but again please bear in mind this is Thailand. These farangs may well be breaking the law, but they may also have very good Thai contacts and influence. It really isn't worth it. Don't forget you also technically broke the law, and it might be you who ends up in jail - or worse. Believe me, it can and does happen.

Start afresh and try to forget about it.

Thanks Mobi,

I guess you are right, though the law states you can work here under a non-immigrant b visa, whilst your work permit is being processed, " I think" that would cover me for carrying out some marketing services for them, during that period.

I'll just forget about it, as I am aware these guys "do indeed have connections" BUT, it would be pleasing just to have them deported..and then put it down to experience.

The main reason I stuck around waiting so long, is because, they dangled a huge carrot, with high income and new untaped market products..so they are fools unto themselves. it could have worked for them if they played by the rules.

Mcnerge.

Have you independently verified that they have meaningful connections or are you just making assumptions based on what they and other have told you? You see, the myth of the "well-connected farang" is generally just that, a myth. The way some farang talk you'd expect them to be dining at the palace on a weekly basis, but the facts almost always prove otherwise; the only officials they've ever met are the cops who give them traffic tickets.

Pretending to have high-level inside contacts is just one of the fantasy lives foreigners like to live and it's standard practice among serial scammers. In reality, they are just a variant on the pathetic pseudo-secret agents you'll find on every third barstool or the dot-com millionaires lingering over the cheapest draft Chang they can find.

Even if these guys do have a meaningful Thai name or two in their rolodex, that Thai individual is not going to stick his neck out to help them once it comes to light they have gotten themselves into trouble. No Thai in his right mind will do that; he's got his career to think of and a dodgy farang is generally not worth it.

As to getting your compensation, you don't deserve any for the work you did. Sorry, but you broke the law by working without proper documentation. And since you crossed that line, a legal action is too risky for you. You don't want these facts coming to light in court.

But by all means do pursue the matter of getting them reported to the police, just don't disclose all the facts. You'll get a measure of personal satisfaction and you'll be helping take out the garbage.

[Mcnerge]

My advice is to write it of to experience and start afresh.

but not before you advise the immigration/labour depts. of these people working illegally.

its your public duty !!

Thanks for the input,

What would be the best way to report these guys, as I understand it, they need to be "caught in the act", sometimes the office is not open, in Northonburi, as both of them travel to Suphanburi where the main house is, and the Thai farm workers are getting paid only 100baht a day too...It makes me even more angry, typing, what I know, and what they are getting away with.

Mcnerge.

I reiterate my advice to chalk it up experience.

I know and appreciate that you are very angry and aggrieved- but again please bear in mind this is Thailand. These farangs may well be breaking the law, but they may also have very good Thai contacts and influence. It really isn't worth it. Don't forget you also technically broke the law, and it might be you who ends up in jail - or worse. Believe me, it can and does happen.

Start afresh and try to forget about it.

Thanks Mobi,

I guess you are right, though the law states you can work here under a non-immigrant b visa, whilst your work permit is being processed, " I think" that would cover me for carrying out some marketing services for them, during that period.

I'll just forget about it, as I am aware these guys "do indeed have connections" BUT, it would be pleasing just to have them deported..and then put it down to experience.

The main reason I stuck around waiting so long, is because, they dangled a huge carrot, with high income and new untaped market products..so they are fools unto themselves. it could have worked for them if they played by the rules.

Mcnerge.

Have you independently verified that they have meaningful connections or are you just making assumptions based on what they and other have told you? You see, the myth of the "well-connected farang" is generally just that, a myth. The way some farang talk you'd expect them to be dining at the palace on a weekly basis, but the facts almost always prove otherwise; the only officials they've ever met are the cops who give them traffic tickets.

Pretending to have high-level inside contacts is just one of the fantasy lives foreigners like to live and it's standard practice among serial scammers. In reality, they are just a variant on the pathetic pseudo-secret agents you'll find on every third barstool or the dot-com millionaires lingering over the cheapest draft Chang they can find.

Even if these guys do have a meaningful Thai name or two in their rolodex, that Thai individual is not going to stick his neck out to help them once it comes to light they have gotten themselves into trouble. No Thai in his right mind will do that; he's got his career to think of and a dodgy farang is generally not worth it.

As to getting your compensation, you don't deserve any for the work you did. Sorry, but you broke the law by working without proper documentation. And since you crossed that line, a legal action is too risky for you. You don't want these facts coming to light in court.

But by all means do pursue the matter of getting them reported to the police, just don't disclose all the facts. You'll get a measure of personal satisfaction and you'll be helping take out the garbage.

Thanks ThaidelHands,

A great response, and thanks for putting this drama in perspective, in such a creative manner.

Their connections are suppose to be "Generals"..who have them picked up in golf carts at the airport and have all their immigration papers stamped for them, when coming in and out every mth or so...

I do believe, in this case that, they do hide behind these Generals, however, you are right in saying that they too (The Generals) would not stand up and defend any farang who is breaking any laws..they too, would run like the bus driver. TIT

Yep, thanks, I'll just take out the garbage. Great advice.

Mcnerge. (Learning curve).

[Mobi]

Thanks ThaidelHands,

A great response, and thanks for putting this drama in perspective, in such a creative manner.

Their connections are suppose to be "Generals"..who have them picked up in golf carts at the airport and have all their immigration papers stamped for them, when coming in and out every mth or so...

I do believe, in this case that, they do hide behind these Generals, however, you are right in saying that they too (The Generals) would not stand up and defend any farang who is breaking any laws..they too, would run like the bus driver. TIT

Yep, thanks, I'll just take out the garbage. Great advice.

Mcnerge. (Learning curve).

Well this is my last word on this matter because it is getting silly.

There is no way you can "independently verify that they have meaningful connections', and if they do indeed have some generals on their side you would be extremely foolish if you were to pursue this any further.

I have been in police stations with ranking army officers; believe me, they carry considerable clout and I doubt whether any general will run for cover. The way it works is that no-one will interfere with anyone else's little arrangements or scams - it's you scratch my arse and I'll scratch yours, and any farang who gets in the way is asking for it.

This country is full of garbage so unless you are going to be a one man vigilante, I'd leave well alone.

[TheDon]

I think your out of luck. Im sure they have themselves cover somehow.

You could always burn the place to the ground

[Upcountry]

I agree with Mobi.

I've seen my share of amateurish foolishness from supposedly official organizations, job offer with the salary lowered after it was first offered, etc. etc. Things just don't work here they way they may 'back home'.

As soon as you realize you've stepped into some sh$tty quicksand it's time to extricate yourself and move on.... You'll only be hurting yourself more to mess around with trying to turn them in to officials that may in fact be on the take themselves.

They best revenge is to live well.

But, that said, getting the word out here on TV, and other expat forums, etc. (maybe Monster.com forums too), about the 'company', or whatever, would help other potential victims avoid the same trap.

[ThaidleHands]

Thanks ThaidelHands,

A great response, and thanks for putting this drama in perspective, in such a creative manner.

Their connections are suppose to be "Generals"..who have them picked up in golf carts at the airport and have all their immigration papers stamped for them, when coming in and out every mth or so...

I do believe, in this case that, they do hide behind these Generals, however, you are right in saying that they too (The Generals) would not stand up and defend any farang who is breaking any laws..they too, would run like the bus driver. TIT

Yep, thanks, I'll just take out the garbage. Great advice.

Mcnerge. (Learning curve).

Well this is my last word on this matter because it is getting silly.

There is no way you can "independently verify that they have meaningful connections', and if they do indeed have some generals on their side you would be extremely foolish if you were to pursue this any further.

I have been in police stations with ranking army officers; believe me, they carry considerable clout and I doubt whether any general will run for cover. The way it works is that no-one will interfere with anyone else's little arrangements or scams - it's you scratch my arse and I'll scratch yours, and any farang who gets in the way is asking for it.

This country is full of garbage so unless you are going to be a one man vigilante, I'd leave well alone.

I'll grant that my choice of words could have been better, so please strike "run for cover" and replace that with "disavow the relationship" or similar. It's far easier just to stop returning calls and let the foreigner twist in the wind.

There are so many factors weighing against this hypothetical relationship between the bad farang and the fictional generals it's hard to know where to start. But the OP and others might consider these factors:

If these relationships did exist, did you see any photos on the office walls of Mr. Ripoff and General Somchai at a business or social affair or out on the golf course? These are magic talismans in every modern business and political culture. At these levels you publicize your relationships rather than conceal them.

Despite the tendency of the Thai military and police bureaucracies to bloat at the top, the actual number of all General Officers active, inactive or retired, in all services is still small, on the order of a few hundred probably and certainly not counted in the thousands. The number of foreigners (or more specifically farang) who would rate that sort of red-carpet treatment outside of an official delegation is likewise vanishingly small.

There are no poor Thai Generals nor any without substantial business, political and social ties. It wouldn't be politic to discuss in too much detail how they make their money -- and much of it is legitimate -- but scratch the surface and you'll find their wealth is generally two or three orders of magnitude above what you'd expect based on their official salaries. It strains credibility to think they'd have time for a couple of farang businessmen with a small number of Thai employees and two offices and maybe a factory or farm.

And even allowing that Mcnerge has perhaps seen only the tip of the iceberg of their wealth, why would such wealthy, well-connected and successful foreigners spend their time dealing directly with him? They'd have a middle-manager do that. Look past the gold watch and the late-model sedan; are there really any indications of wealth that would allow them to play the economic game with elite Thai who function at or just below the national policy level?

As to claims of vigilantism, that's a bit extreme. And using such a loaded term only serves to discourage people who might otherwise take action and help put illegal businesses and businessmen out of the picture. There's no reason I should allow my competitors an advantage when I'm absorbing the costs of compliance with the law. Weeding out the unscrupulous players by legal means serves to make a more honest and transparent business environment which in turn benefits both employers and workers alike.

Or if the moral, social and economic implications aren't enough to justify taking some action, there's at least the visceral satisfaction of payback.

[Loaded]

As a few have said already there are many wannabes in LOS. I knew an English teacher with a masters who told me his girlfriend is connected. She is as black as a coal mine during a power cut and comes from a wooden shack so I thought unlikely. I later found out the policeman, she's connected to, is a low ranking traffic cop who had sex with her in return for protection from hassles with farangs. The farang loves her, she's pregnant and now they're planning to get married - romantic if you ask me

Edited November 12, 2007 by Loaded

[Manchester]

If they were so well connected to " Generals" ( i,m still laughing at that one ) and they sign them through immigration so fast how come they don,t have WP,s?

A couple of shifty foreigners hiring some Thai labour at 100 baht a day. Connected to " Generals".

Excuse me whilst i fall on the floor with a rib tickling laugh.

[Samuian]

Get a GOOD lawyer with experience in just this field - get him in on 10-15% - on a "if win" basis - I have done it in a labor - case and WON!

AND I got the money - he got his AFTERWARDS!

No messin' around with some Lawyer - that will certainly turn out very costly AND won't get you anywhere!

[LinkPopularity]

well, maybe those guys are crooks, maybe not ... maybe they are just not the best business men and had some delay, maybe somebody screwed them over and they are struggling themselves ... where is their gain? how much did they steal from you? you're just complaining about the loss of time, so they didn't really profit from you, did they?

if they're really so bad, then just put some details here ... we only heard 1 side of the story so far, maybe you just didn't qualify after all ?

I find it disturbing to see the mob ready to lynch already ...

[Samuian]

I find it disturbing to see the mob ready to lynch already ...

You may, but I find issuing a letter of Employment, is regarded as 'pomised employment' the OP did have cost f.E. obtaining a NON-B Visa his Trip to Singapore and in fact he has an illegal Visa status and his WP is invalid too by now!

Well nobody did anything wrong of course!

There are certain limits and certain rules we ALL got to have to stick to - don't we?

[varun]

I very much doubt your former farang employers are 'well-connected' w/ Thai generals.

People who are well-connected don't brag about it openly rather, use it when they feel necessary, period.

It's best to forget about this and not really worth the time and money.

What will cost you is pursuing this and hiring expensive lawyers to take this matter to court.

What will not cost you is placing a phonecall to the 'concerned parties' tipping them about a certain establishment that has been operating illegally.

Rest assured, if you give them a precise address and names, they will investiagate further.

[dantilley]

though the law states you can work here under a non-immigrant b visa, whilst your work permit is being processed, "

is that correct ??

Yes, or a least it was last year when I was waiting for my work permit.

Farrangs getting screwed over by their employers is pretty common over here it seems - not all as badly as McNerge here, but i know of a number of people who've been dismissed illegally, not been paid owed commissions, signed contracts for jobs which turned out to be non-existant, etc., etc... it certainly pays to make sure everything's contractually legal and watertight.

[Pepe']

Yes you can sue.

However after years of experience, personally, and via many friends and family your chances of collecting one bhat even in the wild chance that you did win in court is slim to none.

Best of luck though...