Can Someone Help Me With The Precise Meaning "toleh"

[kojac_phx]

My two cents...

It can be used as a grave insult, I've used it once in this fashion and never needed to again after that. Never been lied to by that person again. I wouldn't recommend it's usage in this fashion, but sometimes it's the only way to get the point across when 'go hok' doesn't cut it. Use at your own risk and be prepared for the consequences.

It is used more frequently, IMHO, to describe exaggerated, prissy, over-acting, such as is frequently seen on reality TV or celebrities who are seen as 'fake' such as Tata Young. This is common among the younger Thais, primarily female, with probably about age 35 being the cut off.

Used appropriately, it can enhance your interaction with locals, showing you have gone beyond the language course and dictionary, and bothered to learn the slang as well, knowing when to laugh or make a joke, not appearing too 'stiff' in your language, etc. There are situations where you need to use 'safe' Thai and others where slang or cursing is commonplace, probably more so than anyplace in the West. Listen to the conversation to know which crowd you are in, if it's not obvious from who you're dealing with, just like back home. You wouldn't say 'bullshit' to your pastor or someone you just met in the office, but in many other situations it's part of your standard conversational arsenal once you've evaluated the situation. In another culture, it's sometimes more difficult to determine the situation and in that case, don't use it until you've heard someone else using slang and observed no condescension.

[stateman]

Beware of people advising you to strive for ignorance and tip tow around a language, because they

aren't comfortable using it. This is not good advise.

Toleh is acceptable to use around friends while joking, said different it

can leave a much different impression on others, I believe though it always carries

an informal meaning, and I doubt there is a formal conversation where it would be appropreiate in.

Maybe cutter007 go out and use it in the real world and post the experience here!?

[withnail]

Used appropriately, it can enhance your interaction with locals, showing you have gone beyond the language course and dictionary, and bothered to learn the slang as well, knowing when to laugh or make a joke, not appearing too 'stiff' in your language, etc.

Agreed, but how many times when you hear a foreigner swearing in Thai do you feel that they are using slang appropriately? Have they gone beyond the language course and dictionary or rather never been on a course or opened a dictionary? In my experience when you here a foreigner swearing in Thai (or indeed a Thai swearing in English) it is more likely to be someone with a pathetically small vocabulary that can barely hold down a conversation. That's why it usually sounds so cringeworthy.

Some of the posters here (including yourself kojac) seem to have a better grasp on such subtle nuances, but I think we can all agree that until you know what you are doing it would be better to avoid using language that might cause offence. More than one of us has had an experience where we have made a mistake and it wasn't appreciated.

[sabaijai]

Not good to use this in second person, but it's very common for Thais to use it in third person, i.e., talking about someone else. I wouldn't hesitate in such circumstances, among friends.

[keemao]

doleh is used by bar girls almost exclusively. in my years of friendships with Thai men and women, I've not once heard this work spoken in conversation....'kee goh' is the most common way to call someone a liar, however it is offensive if said at wrong time. 'doleh' if playing, teasing, joking and said correctly is ok, but not really spoken by men. I believe it best to avoid altogether if you don't have a strong grasp of the language.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

[DavidHouston]

Let's get some authoritative definitions around this word. The following is from the internet version of the Royal Institute Dictionary - the latest "big book" edition (as Rikker terms it RID99) - not the newest "New Words" version:

ตอแหล ๑ [-แหฺล] เป็นคําด่าคนที่พูดเท็จ (มักใช้แก่ผู้หญิง); ช่างพูดและแสดงกิริยาน่ารัก (ใช้เฉพาะเด็กที่สอนพูด).

"[Definition} 1. a word cursing someone who speaks untruths (usually used about women); someone who speaks and acts in a cute manner (used only with children whom you are teaching to speak).

ตอแหล ๒ [-แหฺล] ว. เรียกต้นไม้ที่ให้ผลเร็วผิดปรกติ เช่น มะเขือตอแหล.

"(saying) used to call a tree (or plant) which produces fruit of a greater frequency than usual, for example, a "toh leh" eggplant."

The word ด่า may be important in this context. This word is defined in Lexitron as to "abuse; swear; curse" and by Domnern Sathienpong as, "to criticize; find fault with (someone: to scold, chide, berate, tell (someone) off, attack someone, malign, . . . ; to swear (at), use abusive language".

(BTW, I looked at the big RID99 and found that the definitions there were idential to the on-line version. The "New Words" supplement does not carry any corrections or additions for this word.)

Can someone please tell us if these official definitions reflect common usage? Also, I was unaware of the gender-liked connotation of this word; have any of you? And, if my translation needs repair, I would welcome your suggestions. Thanks.

Edited November 21, 2007 by DavidHouston

[mangkorn]

Used appropriately, it can enhance your interaction with locals, showing you have gone beyond the language course and dictionary, and bothered to learn the slang as well, knowing when to laugh or make a joke, not appearing too 'stiff' in your language, etc.

Agreed, but how many times when you hear a foreigner swearing in Thai do you feel that they are using slang appropriately? Have they gone beyond the language course and dictionary or rather never been on a course or opened a dictionary? In my experience when you here a foreigner swearing in Thai (or indeed a Thai swearing in English) it is more likely to be someone with a pathetically small vocabulary that can barely hold down a conversation. That's why it usually sounds so cringeworthy.

Some of the posters here (including yourself kojac) seem to have a better grasp on such subtle nuances, but I think we can all agree that until you know what you are doing it would be better to avoid using language that might cause offence. More than one of us has had an experience where we have made a mistake and it wasn't appreciated.

Points well-made, withnail. I previously posted: "As for the admonitions against farangs using it, that surely holds true for farangs who can't speak Thai well..."

Of course there is no need for them to use such words. I didn't mean to set off a firestorm with my comment, but just to make the point that for the very few farangs who do speak well, the context of each situation dictates usage - and one should be smart enough to have a proper "sense of audience" when choosing words to use.

In my working-class neighbourhood, there isn't a single bar girl, nor anyone who ever considered becoming one. But out on these sois around here, you surely will hear words like that, and far worse, believe me. When I started learning, and being able to comprehend what I was overhearing, I thought Thais were among the ruder people I've come across - at least in my neighbourhood. And I wondered where was all the vaunted politeness one is constantly told about? But in fact it's just everyday speech, and not what one wishes to teach to outsiders. The real test is: are you on the kind of terms with people that may permit you to speak as they do? And that is the case in every language.

In Latin America, we always tell the gringos learning Spanish that they shouldn't use certain words because they are not polite - and we put on airs about how we are so very respectful, etcetera. But we are terribly vulgar when we get to going on in our genuine everyday speech. Quite embarrassingly so, truth be told...

It sounds stupid, and offensive, when a European who can't speak Spanish worth a dam_n starts using our many off-colour colloquialisms. But when someone has been around - someone who truly lives the culture - and is quite fluent, it's no problem.

That said, I do appreciate meadish's point that this forum attracts a lot of farangs who cannot speak Thai well (and in fact live cocooned in farang ghettos), and thus discretion is the better part of everything in such case.

Cheers.

[ThaiAdventure]

Just my two penneth...

dtoh lere is used quite commonly in Issan as a surrogate for goh hok but with the added insinuation that you are trying to pull the wool over the proverbial eyes (a bit like a white lie I suppose). But if you want to say bullshit you would say Kii tua which is definately a no-no in most circles

(unless you add tha, la, la after it...lol).

Maybe this is why you hear it mainly in the bar scene and why many central speaking Thais think it is a sign of a lack of class!

[cutter007]

Was the poster of this message 6 years old or something?

What if you actually have to express the sentiment with the meaning bullshit?

Do you people have a backup word........what........khoo hook maak maak.

'khoo hook'????

I'm sorry... but unless you can produce better transcription than that, or just write it in Thai, I guess you should be a little more careful with criticizing others for not knowing the language well enough.

To answer your question, there are other strategies of handling people lying than outright confrontation. Sometimes they work better, sometimes not.

I don't disagree that people should learn all aspects of a language and when it is appropriate to use a word, but I don't think it is out of place to make a warning based on personal experience either.

Context is in each situation, not on this web board. Hence it is impossible to foresee what kind of specific situations posters will find themselves in, and how they carry themselves.

Before being comfortable with a language it is a good idea to err on the side of caution and politeness. At least it seems to work for me.

Sure I could have wrote it in Thai text, but it is my understanding that Thai Visa is an English only

website, so you actually aren't suppose to use Thai text. But maybe I am mistaken.

Sorry if my phonetic text isn't up to par, normally I don't communicate in phonetic text.

I have used "toleh" plenty of times, and never had a bad reaction to it, but I was sure of the meaning and

when to use it before I ever attempted to say it myself. Which should be the same approach you should use

to any word that you believe might have a negative connotation.

To give you a perspective of where my Thai language abilities lie, I just finished reading The Devinci Code in Thai,

but I did have to use the dictionary for obscure vocab that I never learned.

Edited November 28, 2007 by cutter007

[cutter007]

Thanks, David Houston I never knew the other meaning to the word.

And I interested to try and use it the next chance I get.

[DavidHouston]

Sure I could have wrote it in Thai text, but it is my understanding that Thai Visa is an English only

website, so you actually aren't suppose to use Thai text. But maybe I am mistaken.

Sorry if my phonetic text isn't up to par, normally I don't communicate in phonetic text.

From the Rules of these forums: "13) English language is the only acceptable language on thaivisa.com, except of course in the Thai Language Forum where Thai is encouraged."

[DavidHouston]

To give you a perspective of where my Thai language abilities lie, I just finished reading The Devinci Code in Thai,

but I did have to use the dictionary for obscure vocab that I never learned.

Wow! I am very impressed. Congratulations - reading an entire novel in Thai is not an easy feat. Any interesting vocabulary that you picked up that might be of interest to us in this forum? We are always very happy to learn new Thai words and expressions from people who have made the effort to improve themselves.

[Virin]

Some Thais enjoy teaching bad words to foreigners, urging them to use it, poor them! To be a clown with no clue what they're doing.

There is a story, one farang male was taught by his colleagues - Thai males, the word "แดก - daek" means eat, but they didn't tell it is impolite, they thought it's fun, this guy was encouraged to use this word to girls in the office, unfortunately this farang guy asked his Thai boss in front of Thai clients "แดกข้าวหรือยัง" - Have you had food yet?, you can imagine the rest.

The word "toleh" is definitely a rude word but viewed differently depends on background of each person, whenever someone saying this word, negative image goes to the person who says it, not the one that is mentioned.

Thai proverb: สำเนียงส่อภาษา กิริยาส่อสกุล - săm-niang sòr paa-săa gì-rí-yaa sòr sà-goon (accent indicates language, manners/behavior indicates family/ancestor) or a tree is known by its fruit.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Virin

[mangkorn]

Some Thais enjoy teaching bad words to foreigners, urging them to use it, poor them! To be a clown with no clue what they're doing.

There is a story, one farang male was taught by his colleagues - Thai males, the word "แดก - daek" means eat, but they didn't tell it is impolite, they thought it's fun, this guy was encouraged to use this word to girls in the office, unfortunately this farang guy asked his Thai boss in front of Thai clients "แดกข้าวหรือยัง" - Have you had food yet?, you can imagine the rest.

The word "toleh" is definitely a rude word but viewed differently depends on background of each person, whenever someone saying this word, negative image goes to the person who says it, not the one that is mentioned.

Thai proverb: สำเนียงส่อภาษา กิริยาส่อสกุล - săm-niang sòr paa-săa gì-rí-yaa sòr sà-goon (accent indicates language, manners/behavior indicates family/ancestor) or a tree is known by its fruit.

Great proverb. Thanks for that one.

As for the story, if there's any truth to it, the guy was surely the dimmest bulb in the office anyway...

And แดก is impolite, but Thai women often like to say: แท้แต่ไม่มีจะแดก

[p_brownstone]

It is used more frequently, IMHO, to describe exaggerated, prissy, over-acting, such as is frequently seen on reality TV or celebrities who are seen as 'fake' such as Tata Young. This is common among the younger Thais, primarily female, with probably about age 35 being the cut off.

The more common idiom to describe this sort of behaviour is "wer" (sorry - still no Thai on this Computer).

This is a contaction of the English word "over", as in over-acting, over reacting etc. as regularly seen on Thai Soaps, but the word is used in everyday connotations and conversations however, again, usually it is used by girls / women, not men.

Patrick

[sabaijai]

doleh is used by bar girls almost exclusively. in my years of friendships with Thai men and women, I've not once heard this work spoken in conversation....'kee goh' is the most common way to call someone a liar, however it is offensive if said at wrong time. 'doleh' if playing, teasing, joking and said correctly is ok, but not really spoken by men. I believe it best to avoid altogether if you don't have a strong grasp of the language.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

Not used by bar girls " almost exclusively". I hear it used by my university-educated Thai male and female friends all the time. You need to make a distinction between words that are OK to use when talking about third parties (out of earshot) and words you would rarely use to someone's face.

There is a story, one farang male was taught by his colleagues - Thai males, the word "แดก - daek" means eat, but they didn't tell it is impolite, they thought it's fun, this guy was encouraged to use this word to girls in the office, unfortunately this farang guy asked his Thai boss in front of Thai clients "แดกข้าวหรือยัง" - Have you had food yet?, you can imagine the rest.

It's nowhere near as vulgar as "แดกข้าว" in my experience. I would not hesitate to use ตอแหล among Thais I know well (but not addressed to them), but I would not use "แดก" except with very close friends.

[Joel Barlow]

but isn't that the ice-cream vendor song:

mah mai daek

mah mai daek

mah mai koey dai daek

?

[stud858]

On 11/16/2007 at 12:03 PM, taxexile said:

its an impolite word used by impolite people to aggressively insinuate that what you are saying to them is untrue/bullsh1t/rubbish.

i.e. you dirty liar , you lying bastard , you're full of sh1t , etc.etc.etc.

never a good idea for a foreigner to attempt to swear or badmouth in thai.

it sounds ridiculous , can get you into all kinds of trouble and just marks you out as a loser who associates with other losers.

I agree. Also i refrain from the side spitting action.  Tway. 

Two palms together in front of the eyes and never potty mouth.

Politeness till death. 

Have a very delightful day. 

 

 

[bannork]

Jeezuz, 11years later!

Sabaijai, why did you leave the Thai language forum? You're sorely missed along with Meadish Sweetball.