Moving My Family From Uk To Los

[smile]

My family and I have just returned from 3 week holiday in Thailand half in Chiang Mai and half in Pattaya. This is the third trip this year. We have decided we would really like to move to Thailand. Initially this would be for 1 year to really explore the Thai culture and geography without the influence of being on holiday. In order to do this we would need to sell up in the Uk and live off the investment. If after a year we decide up roots and move here permentley we would like to get longer term visas if possible. We are a family of 4. My spouse and I are not married but have two girls aged 4 and 9 and we have been together for 20 years. Currently I am in IT as a network manager but I do not want to continue this if possible. The first year seems pretty straight forward. Get an non-immigrant multiple entry visa for £90 each and re-enter the country every 90 days. It is the longer term visas I could do with help for. If for example we had £250,000 - £300,000 of net realisable assets what options would we have. I have read varying info stating that you need between Bht3000000 and 10000000 for an investment visa. Can this money ever be taken back out of Thailand? If it is in a government bank would you realise interest?

Sorry for the novel but need to know as much as possible.

[lopburi3]

Without marriage you do not receive family visa considerations. With children you will have very expensive education expense/insurance/etc and no income to speak of. Look very closely before you jump. Life in Thailand is not a vacation, unless you are here on a vacation, and have the funds to afford it. With children of that age you would likely go through your savings quickly and have no retirement means later. But it is your decision - but check the costs and if you can afford the future as a non-immigrant.

There appears to be a 3 million investment visa available from immigration and money would earn interest but must remain in account as long as visa is needed.

[astral]

Given the current tightening up on visa issue, I am not sure that you will get a multi-entry Non Immigrant visa, probably only a single entry.

Even if you do, you will be faced with travel expenses for the whole family to do a visa run every three months, plus the disruption to life and schooling that this involves.

Consider Lopburi's comments very carefully.

[boris]

Excellent advice from Lopburi and Astral.Your comment that you wish to explore Thai culture and geography without the influence of being on holiday is puzzling since having the free time to do so would I have thought been one of the points of being on holiday here.Specifically you would be certifably insane to sell your UK property.If you really do want to test the waters (and frankly your motivation seems very woolly,) rent your property out while you are away.Harsh words you may think but I have seen this kind of half-baked infatuation with Thailand so many times before, usually based on ignorance, and it normally leads to disaster.Key message: don't sell your property you dope.

[thaiflyer1]

Anybody know why this posters local user time is running on thai time? He has been a member since 13/03/04 so i would assume he isnt trolling as no one would create a nickname and then hang onto it for 5 months before posting, would they? I checked Begs time and he is running 2 hours ahead of thai time ,which would fit i suppose. Just curious thats all........any ideas?

[wave]

I agree with Boris, do not sell your property in the UK ....rent it out! What happens if after 3 months you decide it isn't right, you've spent a load in the Los you move back to the UK and property has risen another 10%(still possible) and you've spent 20% of your funds(very possible!), back home you're now 30% down and stuffed with 2 kids a wife and no job...... No guarantee you will get a 3 month visa either which means you may be making those visa runs a bit more often too.

[lopburi3]

Anybody know why this posters local user time is running on thai time? He has been a member since 13/03/04 so i would assume he isnt trolling as no one would create a nickname and then hang onto it for 5 months before posting, would they? I checked Begs time and he is running 2 hours ahead of thai time ,which would fit i suppose. Just curious thats all........any ideas?

He was posting the same interest in moving to Thailand when he joined and may have even been here at the time so expect that, or default, is reason time is Bangkok. We have given him advise to go slow but it appears his mind is made up now so can only hope that he does not do as planned (sell everything) but only do what he has to do for a six-12 month trial run and retains an escape route.

[Khun ?]

I wish I could of retired at 4 or 9. Go for it dad the kids will love you for it.

[smile]

Thank you all. Constructive advice always welcome. LOPBURI3 you are absolutely corerect. Since my initial posting I went back to check for myself and have only just returned from my third visit this year. I know from my experiences here in LOS that I will always need my eyes open. The fact is that my kids, spouse and daughters absolutely adore the place. Spoke to a few expats. Looked at real estate (I know the situation about owning land). Looked at international schooling for the kids. I probably did not make it clear. Firstly the reason I will sell our property here is that I beleive in the next year there will be a correction in real estate prices in the UK. I would rather have the money earning 5% pa than loosing potentially 10 - 25 %. Then if after a few months or a year we decide we want to come back to England then we should be laughing. I am not going to immediately convert our assets into Thai.

The info I am really looking for is the long term visa (IM / Investment visa). I know I have to look after schooling and if we stay I know we will need to make our capital work for us. I just really believe our standard of life would be so much better and we do NOT want to wait until we are in our sixties before enjoying our life.

[smile]

Sorry one last thing. Why are all you guys their? England,

/ Europe (US) are not places I can say any of us feel at home! Even if I can only manage to educate my kids and feed and cloth them I would I would so much prefer that to be within a SE Asian culture.

[smile]

Spot the typo?

[lopburi3]

I would not use the word "cloth" but am not British. And do not believe your idea that none of us feel at home (at home) is true. Many of us live here because it is easier for us to adapt than our Thai half. But perhaps you get that idea from some of the tourist places that you visited? There is a whole range of people outside of those venues.

Immigration has stated that they still run the 3 million baht investment program here in Bangkok so I would talk with them if interested. Consulates (MFA) have stopped offering this program AFAIK so will probably not be able to help.

But even a multi entry O visa with 90 day trips out of the country could provide time to test the waters.

[boris]

Firstly the reason I will sell our property here is that I beleive in the next year there will be a correction in real estate prices in the UK. I would rather have the money earning 5% pa than loosing potentially 10 - 25 %. Then if after a few months or a year we decide we want to come back to England then we should be laughing.

On this forum there is a vast amount of sound advice available, based on knowledge of this country going back decades, which would help those who think it makes sense to make the move from the West to Thailand.The advice can be summed up concisely as test the waters carefully and don't liquidate your accumulated assets including property.You seem determined to ignore this advice, fair enough for a care free young bachelor but pigheadedly foolish for a family man with wife and daughters in tow.Your comments on the UK property market with respect show you are an economic illiterate.It is far from certain the UK property market will decline at all let alone 10-25%, as opposed to zero growth stagnation which is quite possible.Let's assume your Thailand aspirations go pear shaped after a year or so.To get back in the UK property market you will have a smaller cash sum i.e net of what you have spent in Thailand and on top of that you will have to absorb stamp duty and legal costs, as well as refurnishing.I don't see in this scenario how you can keep ahead of the game with only 5% being earned on the proceeds of your property sale.Come out here by all means and look around, but don't sell your house.But I sense you are someone who always knows best.

[smile]

Thanks again guys. Boris. We have to agree to disagree. I honestly believe there will be correction in UK realestate. First time buyers are now in a position where they cannot get onto the property market. It is all being fueled by Buy To Let investors. Any way this is not about money it is about quality of life.

Ever since Louise (my spouse) and I visited Hong Kong, early las year, we have been back to the far east probably six times and fallen in love with far east culture and people. I understand you all trying to put off people making a rash decision and applaud you all for that. It is not about Thai women, wonderful though they are, it is the culture. If I can pay my kids through education and provide adequate health care for my family I really do not need to worry. I can always come back to the UK and if necessary sit in front of a computer all day and programme.

We, Louise and I, really believe England is not the place to bring up kids if your philosophys are like ours.

We are going to do it for a year and really study where we would like to be and if there are business opportunities. I am NOT talking about a bar or anything as so obviously risky.

Any help in this context would be appreciated.

[Dickie]

Go for it. So it goes pear-shaped? Your kids will love the experience and going back to sunny England and renting a property isn't the end of the world. I intend to sell-up but only take a small % of the profit to LOS. If I screw-up then Oz beckons. If that screws up there's always other places to try.

No one seems to accept that it can be a roaring success.

[astral]

I still have a house in the UK, and the rental I receive there more than covers my housing and bills here, in fact it provides 2/3 of the requirement for a retirement visa, which is quite a reasonable sum for living. To say nothing of sustained capital growth!

In the Uk if you rent your house out, all your expenses, even you mortgage interest are recoverable against the rental income.

Even with the predicted correction in the Uk house market, I think you will find it very difficult to get back in at a later date. There is still a tremendous pressure for housing, particularly in the SE.

Remember the golden rule.

Never bring more money in to Thailand, than you are prepared to walk away from.

You never know when the government may make us all leave, or enforce exchange control, etc. It has happened in other countries.

As others have said, holidaying here and living are two quite different things. Thailand can become very frustrating at times, even for those of us who love it.

The Thai "Never mind" attitude about things that do matter.

Internet that hangs for minutes and the just as suddenly restarts

Read some of the other posts like:

Complaining Expats

What makes you crave Thailand

Loosing face

Bringing money into Thailand

Does your wife realise the risks?

Many a farang marriage has floundered on the rock of the bar scene in Thailand.

Edited August 23, 2004 by astral

[smile]

Again thanks. This isn't a maybe or an if. My family and I love thailand so much we want to give a go. Initially for a year and hopefully for ever. I planned to live on the interest from the capital realised when we sell up in the UK. I appreciate this will be modest for a european, probobly £1500 sterling per month. I am sorry but I really do believe we will see a correction in the UK and I am prepared to take the gamble that if it all goes belly up inside a year I can come back and start again. My wife is very much aware of the risks.

In order to avoid income tax on my investment I would assume that there are offshore accounts to invest in that will be tax free. If my assumption is correct does anyone have any good or bad experiences that they are willing to share. What sort of returns can you expect?

I have been back, this time, for four days and already I am aching to be back. The smiles and the people are addictive!!!

[the scouser]

I really do believe we will see a correction in the UK

This bears out your belief:-

Guardian 23/8/04

Scouse.

[smile]

Thanks. Someone positive. I know we need to go in with eyes open and I see the risk of it all going belly up. However in the current political clime I really do not see or feel the UK / USA / Europe is the place to be, firstly for my kids and secondly for Lou and I. Basket Case I have the same phylosophy as you. Scouser thanks for the link.

[Dickie]

Basket Case I have the same phylosophy as you.

It's 'Dickie', actually.

Basket-case is more an observation than a monicker.

[boris]

I really do believe we will see a correction in the UK

This bears out your belief:-

Guardian 23/8/04

Scouse.

The Guardian article is a fair one and reflects the informed consensus on what will happen in the UK housing market, ie plateau on price inflation and perhaps stagnation for a year or so.However there is no suggestion prices will actually fall, ie the correction is an end of rampant house price inflation.Thus the contents of the Guardian article only serve to prove my earlier point that a 5% cash return on proceeds will not nearly compensate for the costs, including stamp duty, of re-entering the market at a later stage (especially since in practical terms part of the initial proceeds will have been spent on Thailand living costs)

However from his slightly loopy comments on "falling in love with Asian culture" it is clear that Smile is bent upon a course.How can you "love" Thailand when you don't really know anything about it? So the advice once again is don't sell your house, rent it out and come over for an extended visit if you must.At the end of say 6 months stand back and assess whether your infatuation (for that's what it is) with Thailand is still intact.

Incidentally on what basis do you think Thailand is a "better" environment for raising kids.There are certainly some positives but a whole series of negatives as well.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Smile,

You might be happy to know. You are not alone. I have observed a much higher percentage of British people moving their families to Thailand than ever before. I in fact made this comment to a Logistics Company several weeks ago. They in fact conferred that they also are getting more British families selling their house and moving to the Kingdom than anytime in the 20+ years they have had an office in BKK. My surprise is the number of foreigner families moving with kids, not just the single guy. It’s a big crossroads in life with the kids going to a new school thousands of miles in a new culture. I’m sure no family made the decision in a rush.

As I stated the other night, it reminds me reading the history books of people traveling West to California in the mid 1800’s. This time round its go East! Friends told many families traveling to California they were crazy. Some did well and some did not. I'm sure people are telling anybody in the UK doing this, "You are crazy" But they still had the fortitude to make the move.

I do know this; real estate in Pattaya is white hot now. The large demand is coming from Europeans buying houses in Thailand at a fraction of the price back in their country. The number of real estate agents in Pattaya in two years has gone from a handful of firms to now over eighty companies.

The key quotes that I get from families when asking why they are making the move is “taxes in the UK.” That’s always the #1 reason.. “Were getting taxed to death in the UK." “Property values are very high in the UK and Spain and we can buyer a bigger house with less money” Most simply feel they “can live better in Thailand.” In every case, the funds for their move I've seen, is from selling their homes in the UK.

Could this movement away from the UK all have started from the Channel 4 production in the UK called “No Going Back”?

http://www.channel4.com/life/microsites/N/no_going_back/

Whatever started it, “Move East “is now a popular slogan.

Best of luck in Thailand!

Greg Lange

Managing Director

Sunbelt Asia Co., Ltd

www.sunbeltasia.com

[astral]

Again thanks. This isn't a maybe or an if. My family and I love thailand so much we want to give a go. Initially for a year and hopefully for ever.

Go for it then.

We have only been trying to point out the possible pit falls along the path to the Land of Smiles, not the least of which is the difficult visa situation at your age

.

Thailand is a place that people either love or hate. I hope you will still be in the first category by the end of the first year.

Invest you money carefully and with the income you mention you should be able to live well over here. Choose a good offshore haven like the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man to avoid income tax in the UK.

Returns seem to be around 3% for a safe investment, which also leaves additional income to protect your capital sum. I am in the process of placing a sum I realised recently. Despite the correction I would still consider UK property to be a good investment.

Don't bring too much money over here. To put this in perspective, the exchange rate 20 years ago was 25baht/US$1, and 37baht to the pound. Compare that to today's rates and you will see what could happen to your money if invested here!!

Mind you property has also gone up here, but as foreigners we are barred from that type of investment.

If you are in Thailand for more than 180 days in any calendar year you are liable for income tax on money brought in. I believe there is a waiver on interest earned in the previous year. You will need to check with a Tax accountant here and plan accordingly, especially for the first year.

Good luck

[boris]

Smile,

You might be happy to know. You are not alone. I have observed a much higher percentage of British people moving their families to Thailand than ever before. I in fact made this comment to a Logistics Company several weeks ago. They in fact conferred that they also are getting more British families selling their house and moving to the Kingdom than anytime in the 20+ years they have had an office in BKK.  My surprise is the number of foreigner families moving with kids, not just the single guy. It’s a big crossroads in life with the kids going to a new school thousands of miles in a new culture. I’m sure no family made the decision in a rush.

As I stated the other night, it reminds me reading the history books of people traveling West to California in the mid 1800’s.  This time round its go East! Friends told many families traveling to California they were crazy. Some did well and some did not. I'm sure people are telling anybody in the UK doing this, "You are crazy" But they still had the fortitude to make the move.

I do know this; real estate in Pattaya is white hot now. The large demand is coming from Europeans buying houses in Thailand at a fraction of the price back in their country. The number of real estate agents in Pattaya in two years has gone from a handful of firms to now over eighty companies.

The key quotes that I get from families when asking why they are making the move is “taxes in the UK.” That’s always the #1 reason.. “Were getting taxed to death in the UK." “Property values are very high in the UK and Spain and we can buyer a bigger house with less money” Most simply feel they “can live better in Thailand.”  In every case, the funds for their move I've seen, is from selling their homes in the UK.   

Could this movement away from the UK all have started from the Channel 4 production in the UK called “No Going Back”?

http://www.channel4.com/life/microsites/N/no_going_back/

Whatever started it, “Move East “is now a popular slogan.

Best of luck in Thailand!

Greg Lange

Managing Director

Sunbelt Asia Co., Ltd

www.sunbeltasia.com

Oh come off it.First of all Sunbelt has a vested interest in persuading people to relocate with a view to buying one of his brokered "businesses" (that's a whole new subject for separate discussion).In any case, the fact that some British families are selling up to relocate to Thailand or anywhere else means very little.Brits have always emigrated from their crowded little island, some because they were genuinely enterprising and some,to be a little unkind, who had difficulty making it in the UK and subsequently settling down anywhere.Some will have thought the move through carefully and some will not, and Smile "in love with Asian culture" is clearly in the latter category.To compare Thailand with California is absurd.In the latter there were and are almost unlimited possibilities available to the hardworking, ambitious and talented.In Thailand the whole legal system is stacked against the foreigner in ways that Sunbelt should know as well as anyone.But perhaps being honest about this may not be good for business.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Boris,

You make me smile. Sunbelt Asia pays over 50,000 Baht every three months so everyone has the right to express themselves on this Thai Visa forum so I better be able to as well :-) I have to pay the invoice today for the Thai Visa server, would you like to do so for us?

Vested interest in what? LOL. If someone wants to use or not use our service, thats their right. If they do, we try to always go the extra step in customer service. You certainly could do alot worse not using our service. As for the forum though, whatever is on my mind, either good or bad, I voice it.

I simply gave my observation that I'm seeing. How does Sunbelt have vested interest in confirming to that Smilie, hes not alone. He in fact is looking to invest overseas not buying or starting up a business.

As for vested interest... Just a couple days ago, a seller called me complaining I was talking bad about owning a beer bar in Pattaya on this forum and that I stated the odds were against making money. Guess I can't make everybody happy.

Hence I speak my mind and let the chips fall where they may. Either positive or negative.

In Thailand the whole legal system is stacked against the foreigner in ways that Sunbelt should know as well as anyone.But perhaps being honest about this may not be good for business.

I'm involved with ten different businesses in Thailand. Every one of them “doing ok to very well.” The whole legal system is stacked against a foreigner???...please enlighten me, how?

In Thailand, the fact is a number of foreigners own business that make money. Have I seen some that have lost money? Yes but it had 0% with the Thai government legal system. It mostly had everything to do with capital and management. The same as other countries.

Greg Lange

Managing Director

Sunbelt Asia Co., Ltd

www.sunbeltasia.com

[boris]

Boris,

You make me smile. Sunbelt Asia pays over 50,000 Baht every three months so everyone has the right to express themselves on this Thai Visa forum so I better be able to as well :-) I have to pay the invoice today in fact for the Thai Visa server, would you like to do so?

Vested interest in what? LOL. If someone wants to use or not use our service, thats their right. If they do, we try to always go the extra step in customer service As for the forum though, whatever is on my mind, either good or bad, I voice it.

I simply gave my observation that I'm seeing. How does Sunbelt have vested interest in confirming to Smilie, hes not alone. He is looking to invest overseas.

I give you vested interest... Just a couple days ago, a seller called me complaining I was talking bad about owning a beer bar in Pattaya on this forum and that I stated the odds were against making money. Guess I can't make everybody happy.

Hence I speak my mind and let the chips fall where they may. Either positive or negative.

In Thailand the whole legal system is stacked against the foreigner in ways that Sunbelt should know as well as anyone.But perhaps being honest about this may not be good for business.

I'm involved with ten different businesses in Thailand. Every one of them “doing ok to very well.” The whole legal system is stacked against a foreigner???...please enlighten me, how?

In Thailand, the fact is a number of foreigners own business that make money. Have I seen some that have lost money? Yes but it had 0% with the Thai government legal system. It mostly had everything to do with capital and management.

Greg Lange

Managing Director

Sunbelt Asia Co., Ltd

www.sunbeltasia.com

Of course you have a vested interest (in persuading foreigners Thailand is an excellent place to buy a business) and this is perfectly legitimate provided it is openly acknowledged.Why else would you pay Bt 50,000 per quarter?I am sure it is money well spent.

Your use of language suggests there is a Thai input to your message, which is interesting.I have no reason to doubt that Sunbelt gives good service and that your approach is honest.However there are many uninformed people out there who should be aware that your advice is not neutral.You are in business to do business, and there is nothing wrong with this.

There is no doubt the legal system is stacked against the foreigner -restrictions on shareholdings, owning land, bankruptcy practices etc etc.Informally there are in practice many problems with Thai jv partners.I am certainly not arguing that foreigners can't make money in relatively small businesses that come in "under the radar", are farang/westernised Thai oriented and in practice are foreign controlled/managed.I would agree with you that in this sector good management/sufficient investment capital are key issues, but the Sino-Thai plutocracy(who have strong political links) who dominate the Thai business scene will do their best to discourage real competition in the major league.None of this is particularly controversial.

[prism]

I, myself made the big move from the states to LOS having sold the house and all before coming here. It was a huge move but there's a big difference between me and Smile, I'm single so if I crash and burn, I'm not taking a spouse and kids down with me. In his initial post, he asked about obtaining a long term visa investing 3 mil to 10 mil. For yourself, I'm assuming he's under 50 YO, you can deposit 3 mil into a one year fixed savings account at a Thai bank. Bangkok bank pays a whopping %1 interest . Then apply for a Non Imig at a Thai embassy or consulate. You'll likely get a single entry so you'll have to upgrade that to a one year in Thailand. Not all consulates will go for it and I'm not sure about the UK. The consulate in Penang was very resistant and picky about your documentations when I applied so I'd advise going to a reputable lawyer that specializes in visas. Buying a house or condominium for 3 mil won't qualify you. He's not married to his spouse so maybe his spouse will have to open a bank account too.

Sunbelt is a good resource for buying or starting or own business and setting up a company so you can obtain a WP. Obtaining a work permit might be the best way for him to go to get his family here. He might think about marriage too.

Good luck!

Like to know more about having to pay taxes in Thailand on money brought in, anybody have any more info?

[c89109]

If Greg at Sunbelt is paying for the invoice of the "Thai Visa server" does that mean he owns this website as well?

[angie]

Smile,

Go for it, we moved here from England (Manchester) a year ago with our 10 year old son, he has a great education (although very expensive) and loves the place, he has many friends as i am sure your children will have.

I rent my property out in England and would advise this for the first 6-12 months until you feel settled.

We have bought our own company here in Thailand (Bangkok) and everything is going so well.

You will always hear horror stories or pesemistic views, but your an adult and only you and your family know your own strengths and weaknesses, if your certain, do it rather than wish you had not.

Tell your wife not to worry about the "Bar girl scene" as everyone seems to "Throw in" once expat married couples want to settle in Thailand, if you have a good marraige you will be fine, believe me i know!

Good luck fr the future on whatever you decide.

Angie

[Sunbelt Asia]

If Greg at Sunbelt is paying for the invoice of the "Thai Visa server" does that mean he owns this website as well?

I wish we did!!!! Its simply how Sunbelt sponsors the forum by paying for the server. George has done a good job and deserves the rewards of all his work.

www.sunbeltasia.com