Killing Insect Life

[camerata]

In Ajarn Sumedho's books he makes the point over and over that we shouldn't be annihilating insect life just because it is inconvenient to have around. He also mentions that one of many distractions while meditating (presumably in the forest) is the worry about getting malaria.

Does anyone have any practical tips on keeping critters out of the house/condo/apt or getting rid of them once they're in - without killing them? My place is pretty good on the whole - the occasional cockroach and centipede (ugh!), but the main problem is whenever the mae-ban cleans the place it ends up swarming with mosquitos.

I remember there is some kind of citrus plant that is supposed to keep mosquitos away. Also some kind of electronic dog-whistle type of gizmo that mossies don't like, but I've never tried them or seen them in Thailand.

[sabaijai]

In Ajarn Sumedho's books he makes the point over and over that we shouldn't be annihilating insect life just because it is inconvenient to have around. He also mentions that one of many distractions while meditating (presumably in the forest) is the worry about getting malaria.

Does anyone have any practical tips on keeping critters out of the house/condo/apt or getting rid of them once they're in - without killing them? My place is pretty good on the whole - the occasional cockroach and centipede (ugh!), but the main problem is whenever the mae-ban cleans the place it ends up swarming with mosquitos.

I remember there is some kind of citrus plant that is supposed to keep mosquitos away. Also some kind of electronic dog-whistle type of gizmo that mossies don't like, but I've never tried them or seen them in Thailand.

Ask your mae ban to keep the door shut while she cleans.

Lemongrass and it's extracted oil, citronella, have a mild repellant effect. I've heard the sound repellants don't work at all but have never tried them myself.

The first year I came to Thailand, in 1977, I was keen to learn more about Buddhism and decided I wanted to stay in a wat for awhile. I was living in Chainat province at the time, and asked some Thai friends to recommend a local wat where I could spend a week or two.

They recommended a little forest wat atop a hill at the outskirts of the capital. Before I could stay there, they said, I would have to have a chat with abbot and get his permission. Before I did that, they gave me my first lessons on proper etiquette in Thai temples, how to sit in front of a high monk, etc. One of the last things they told me before I ascended the hill was, "And don't slap at mosquitoes in front of the abbit, even if they're biting you."

I sat down for my chat with the abbot in the late morning and it lasted about an hour and half. This particular wat was swarming with day-biting mossies, and I must have been bitten at least 150 times during that hour and a half. Every inch of exposed flesh had been bombarded by the time I left, but the abbot had given me permission to come a stay beginning the following weekend.

As I was making arrangments for my wat stay over the next couple of days, I starting feeling terrible. By the 3rd day I was in hospital with a raging case of dengue fever! I was laid out for three weeks and never made it back to that wat at all.

I try never to travel anywhere in rural Thailand anymore without carrying a supply of insect repellant. I find that the Jaico brand, available in most 7-Elevens and other convenience stores, works best.

Edited August 22, 2004 by sabaijai

[Darknight]

so was the abbot stung as well ?

[Totster]

so was the abbot stung as well ?

Good question....

I use Sketolene, works ok for me... and I am particulary tasty to mossies !!

totster

[meadish_sweetball]

I think all things citric have a slight mozzie-repelling effect. The most widely used anti-mozzie stick used in Sweden also uses a citric concoction mixed with a low level of DEET (about 10 times less than some of the Thai brands). DEET is carcinogenic by the way, so for people staying in Thailand long-term, you should try to figure out other solutions.

In my summerhouse in Sweden, I installed a supersonic device on the wall facing the verandah. The first thing that happened when I turned it on was that a little mozzie flew up to it to check it out. I swear I could hear him have a little chuckle to himself before he flew off to tell his mates. In other words, confirming what sabaijai's sources said.

[sabaijai]

so was the abbot stung as well ?

Just noticed your Q, hadn.t checked this thread in awhile.

No doubt everyone at the monastery had had dengue fever earlier in their lives and was immune. Although there are four strains of the dengue virus in Thailand, one is much more common than the other three. Once you've had the virus, you're immune to that strain. I've only had it once, so guess I'm at potential risk for another three cases ...

[camerata]

I was never able to get the mae-ban to keep the window closed while cleaning the room because she keeps her mop out there on the balcony. In the end I discovered that Lemonene spray (made from citrus oil extracted from orange peel) puts mozzies off their feed without actually killing them outright, and sprayed on surfaces will prevent ants from appearing. I combine the Lemonene with Citronella Extract placed near the head of the bed at night. It's a small can that gives off a strong citrus smell when opened and seems to keep mozzies away.

Both products are available at big supermarkets and can be used in the kitchen or around children.

[chownah]

What about rats. This time of year all of the rats and mice that lived hither and yon in the empty rice fields are forced to leave as the paddy is filled up with water and planted. They head for high ground....my garden and house. Rats will climb up a corn plant and eat the corn about one week before its ripe enough for you to want to pick it....the result is nice corn fed rats and frustrated cornless gardeners. My feeling is that if no farmers ever killed any rats then farm output would be considerably lower...way way lower....famine? I don't enjoy killing rats but I put poison out and the poison disappears so I guess.......I haven't seen any dead bodies yet. Is it reasonable for me to think that I have not killed the rats and they have killed themselves by eating the poison?? It's not like I forced their mouth open and shoved it down their throats. Another thing to consider is that I am not killing rats just because it is inconvenient for them to be around....I avoid it as much as possible but frankly if YOU want to eat corn on the cob then I don't see how killing rats can be avoided.

Please help me!!!! I don't want to burn in hel_l for an eternity!!!

Chownah

P.S. Actually I wasn't going to post all of the above....I was just going to say that citronella does not come from lemongrass...it comes from a closely related plant...I'm growing some myself...once you get it started it pretty much maintains itself...having the plants growing doesn't seem to have much affect on the mosquitos. When I get time I'm going to experiment a bit with processing the leaves in various ways to see if I can come up with an easy home made application to repel mosquitos.

Chownah-

Edited July 9, 2006 by chownah

[sabaijai]

I was never able to get the mae-ban to keep the window closed while cleaning the room because she keeps her mop out there on the balcony. In the end I discovered that Lemonene spray (made from citrus oil extracted from orange peel) puts mozzies off their feed without actually killing them outright, and sprayed on surfaces will prevent ants from appearing. I combine the Lemonene with Citronella Extract placed near the head of the bed at night. It's a small can that gives off a strong citrus smell when opened and seems to keep mozzies away.

Both products are available at big supermarkets and can be used in the kitchen or around children.

Will look for the Lemonene, sounds like very useful stuff.

I googled and found this description of the chemical contents (assuming it's the same product, that is).

[camerata]

I don't think it's the same stuff. This stuff says on the label, "Composition: D-Lemonene 15% w/w" and "made from 100% citrus oil." I remember some years ago the label said "Insecticide," but now it says "Insects Protector." A quick Google turned up this story in the Pattaya Mail:

Lemonene ad banned from TV

The Consumer Protection Office has ordered a ban on commercial spots by Lemonene for advertising itself as an insecticide agent which, said scientists, was not true. The aromatic substance D-Lemonene, extracted from citrus peels, was yet to be proved effective in killing insects, they said.

Though the substance is highly acceptable to the fact that it is free of side effects when used in repelling mosquitoes, it was necessary that the advertisement be honest to customers, said the office. Lemonene solvent would kill insects only if it was concentrated enough, 15 percent at least, and when sprayed directly, with sufficient amount, to the body of insects, scientists said.

The CPO said though Lemonene’s "non-poisonous" label was acceptable, its claim as a non-poisonous insecticide was untrue and must be corrected. Lemonene has been on the market for several years and has already become popular among health-conscious households annoyed by mosquitoes and other insects.

CPO introduces tough measures against several untrue and "dishonest" ads; experiments in the US found D-Lemonene effective in paralyzing nerve and breathing systems in insects but not killing; the Medical Science Department is to find out the facts.

* * *

My experience is that if I spray it in the air instead of directly on the insect the mosquito will still be flying around the next day, but it doesn't bite me. I suppose this isn't surprising if its nervous system has been paralyzed.

The same company that makes the citronella extract also makes a eucalyptus extract that it claims is "Anti Cockroaches." That might be useful too.

[Suthep_Steve]

Has anyone tried the Vitamin B-1( Thiamine Hydrochloride ) trick. Where you take it to slight excess (please be careful) and the body excreates it through the skin. There is an urban myth that mosquitos don't like it. I think it only works for a couple of days before your liver kicks in and you pee it out instead. Oh yes and you will smell a bit like a pharmacy for a few days as well but if your in the forest only the mozzies will mind.

Another one that you find on the net when you google for such things is

"Avon Skin-So-Soft bath oil mixed about half and half with alcohol. mix your own: 20 drops Eucalyptus oil 20 drops Cedarwood oil 10 drops Tea Tree oil 10 drops Geranium oil 2 oz. carrier oil ( such as Jojoba ) Mix together in a 4 oz. container. Apply to skin as needed avoiding the eye area. Keep out of reach of children. Test on a small area of skin for sensitivities . Experiment with different percentages of essential oil"

To be honest it's not so bad where I live, I heard that the local guy in charge of spraying in our area is very hard working. Or maybe the pollution is killing them off.

When I had a house in the UK we had a small ant problem. We solved that one by putting out sugar solution in the opposite direction from the house in the garden. But the ant season is very short in the UK as it's generally to cold and wet for them to become a problem.

[camerata]

I've been taking 200 times the recommended daily dose of B1 for years and it hasn't helped me with mozzies.

[sabaijai]

I don't think it's the same stuff. This stuff says on the label, "Composition: D-Lemonene 15% w/w" and "made from 100% citrus oil." I remember some years ago the label said "Insecticide," but now it says "Insects Protector." A quick Google turned up this story in the Pattaya Mail:

Lemonene ad banned from TV

The Consumer Protection Office has ordered a ban on commercial spots by Lemonene for advertising itself as an insecticide agent which, said scientists, was not true. The aromatic substance D-Lemonene, extracted from citrus peels, was yet to be proved effective in killing insects, they said.

Though the substance is highly acceptable to the fact that it is free of side effects when used in repelling mosquitoes, it was necessary that the advertisement be honest to customers, said the office. Lemonene solvent would kill insects only if it was concentrated enough, 15 percent at least, and when sprayed directly, with sufficient amount, to the body of insects, scientists said.

The CPO said though Lemonene’s "non-poisonous" label was acceptable, its claim as a non-poisonous insecticide was untrue and must be corrected. Lemonene has been on the market for several years and has already become popular among health-conscious households annoyed by mosquitoes and other insects.

CPO introduces tough measures against several untrue and "dishonest" ads; experiments in the US found D-Lemonene effective in paralyzing nerve and breathing systems in insects but not killing; the Medical Science Department is to find out the facts.

* * *

My experience is that if I spray it in the air instead of directly on the insect the mosquito will still be flying around the next day, but it doesn't bite me. I suppose this isn't surprising if its nervous system has been paralyzed.

The same company that makes the citronella extract also makes a eucalyptus extract that it claims is "Anti Cockroaches." That might be useful too.

Yes seems to be an entirely different product. The more common name for the chemical extract itself appears to be D-limonene. So it's commonly available in Thailand?

[Sheryl]

If you have a garden, planting lots of citrus helps reduce both mosquitos and snakes.

I also find that burning insence seems to discourage them and it smells nicer than repellent sprays. And of ocurse insect repellent worn on the body doesn't kill, just repels.

regarding chownah's rat issue...Cats will solve it plus cats are absolute devas, I am convinced (but then, as a cat lover, I am by definition demented on the subject of felines). Now I maybe wrong here but I think that as long as one doesn't attempt to encourage the cats to kill rats the fact that they naturally do is not "bop"for you. Or am I rationalizing? Anyhow I truly didn't get my cat because of the rat/mouse problem but do enjoy their absence now that I have her. (I have actually rescued still live mice from her clutches several times...but that's no prob because by that point I figure they know there's a cat about & won't be back.)

Until recently I have also spared the many scorpions & centipedes about. However having finally been stung by one I must say I am sorely tempted to change the scorpion policy....

[camerata]

So it's commonly available in Thailand?

All I can say is it's available at the big stores (Villa, Tops, Foodland, etc) frequented by farang.

[orlandoiam]

Hi-- although I don't know how well they work, you can buy those electronic devices at Home Pro on the second floor beside Carrfour (same building) on Ratchada. It's the Cultural Center stop on the subway.

[popshirt]

I've bought and used those electronic thingies, in my opinion they don't work. Save your baht.

[chownah]

I just want to try to keep this topic on track....this is NOT a topic about the best way to kill insects....or rodents....its about how to repel insects because some people like to follow their views about not killing living things and one way to avoid killing insects is to repel them so there is not need to kill them.

On the other hand, popshirt's post says that the electronic thingies don't work anyway so I guess his post isn't about how to kill insects but rather how to try to kill insects and fail at the undertaking!!! I'm wondering if the Buddha' teachings would indicate that trying to kill and insect is just as bad as actually killing one....any opinions on the Buddha's teachings on this?

Edited August 19, 2006 by chownah

[popshirt]

I just want to try to keep this topic on track....this is NOT a topic about the best way to kill insects....or rodents....its about how to repel insects because some people like to follow their views about not killing living things and one way to avoid killing insects is to repel them so there is not need to kill them.

On the other hand, popshirt's post says that the electronic thingies don't work anyway so I guess his post isn't about how to kill insects but rather how to try to kill insects and fail at the undertaking!!! I'm wondering if the Buddha' teachings would indicate that trying to kill and insect is just as bad as actually killing one....any opinions on the Buddha's teachings on this?

Electronic devices are not meant to kill anything. The send out an ultra-high-frequency sound that insects don't like, so they stay away. At least this is the theory. So my post was on topic after all.

[chownah]

Popshirt,

Sincere apologies!!! I thought you were talking about electronic bug zappers that kill bugs! My mistake, sorry.

Chownah

[camerata]

Yes seems to be an entirely different product. The more common name for the chemical extract itself appears to be D-limonene. So it's commonly available in Thailand?

Bad news. When I bought a refill this week the D-lemonene content had been raised from 15% to 30% and the label carried all the usual warnings. It mentions spraying on surfaces but not spraying in the air.

[chownah]

You could always dilute it back to the 15%......increase the good kamma factor AND save on cash!!!!!!

[ThaiPauly]

So what about Ticks?

My Dog was infested with them, we were pulling hundreds at a time from here even though she had been apparantly Imunised through injections and tablets.

We pull hundreds out of her and off the wall and we kill them...what else are we supposed to do

We had the house sprayed by professionals, it did not work....a few nights ago I awoke itching like mad because they had got into the bed and were busy eating ME.

The only thing I could do was to flush the blighters down the loo after pulling them out.

We had the house fumigated again the other day and I have not seen one in a while.

My query is apart from food for other isects, what purpose do Mozzies and Ticks serve in this world

BTW..I use repelant for Mozzies too and we have screens all over the house so we hardly get any inside, so I dont have the need to kill them. I have also used a Mozzie Ban which kept them away, although I dropped it, it broke and I have not bothered to get another one.

I don't kill snails, I throw them over the fence, well those that my wife does not poison, but I don't feel good if I tread on one by accident.

But the Ticks......what should one do???? What IS the alternative to killing them, if I round them up and throw them outside the Dog will just bring them all back in, She needs her excersise, I can't keep her in doors all day can I?

[cm das]

I've heard that eating lots of garlic discourages mosquitos from biting. I don't know if it's true but I do eat a lot & mosquitos always seem to prefer others to me.

[camerata]

My query is apart from food for other isects, what purpose do Mozzies and Ticks serve in this world

From the Buddhist perspective they don't have to serve any purpose at all. The only thing that matters is that they are sentient and - once dualistic thinking is eradicated - not separate from ourselves.

But the Ticks......what should one do???? What IS the alternative to killing them, if I round them up and throw them outside the Dog will just bring them all back in, She needs her excersise, I can't keep her in doors all day can I?

I think a Buddhist solution would be to avoid keeping a dog!

Personally, I think we just have to accept the kammic consequences of killing some small critters (not to mention the holocaust every time we use antibiotics!), otherwise life would be unbearable.

Japanese Zen monks had to put up with a lot of fleas and mossies but they were quite philosophical about it. A few haiku from Issa:

my hut's fleas

how cute!

they sleep with me

hop off, fleas

and see

Matsushima

a good day!

fleas are dancing

and hopping

for you fleas

the night must be long...

and lonely?

thippity thump!

the fleas this long night

in a fine mood

borrowing the crossroads temple

from fleas and mosquitoes

I sleep

[sabaijai]

borrowing the crossroads temple

from fleas and mosquitoes

I sleep

[ThaiPauly]

Sorry , but I don't accept that I should not keep a dog, so therfore I cannot accept your rationialisation Camerata.

If you are saying to me that I should not destoy life that is eating Me and my Dog alive I will have to think a lot deeper about my commitment to Bhuddism...my Wife is a devout Bhuddist and spends many many hours a week at various temples and making merit..but even SHE will kill a tick......These critters are making our lives unbearable

I take it you have not got any pets then?

Edited due to a stupid spelling mistake

Edited September 21, 2006 by ThaiPauly

[camerata]

Sorry , but I don't accept that I should not keep a dog, so therfore I cannot accept your rationialisation Camerata.

If you are saying to me that I should not destoy life that is eating Me and my Dog alive I will have to think a lot deeper about my commitment to Bhuddism...

Well, there are other options. You could keep the dog inside. Or you could just exercise the dog on the street and not let it near the grass. Or put the ticks in a bag and throw them outside. Ot hire a mae-ban to clean the dog so you don't have to do it. Failing that, you have to accept the kammic consequences of breaking one of the precepts. We can't change the Dhamma to suit our lifestyle - it's up to us to find a skillful solution to the problems we encounter.

I try to reduce potential problems by living without wives, children or pets.

[chownah]

ThaiPauly,

I don't think it is quite right to talk in terms of what one "should" and "should not" do.....at least I have never got the impression from my readings of the scriptures or interpretations of them that this is what the Buddha was trying to convey.

I think that the Buddha was trying to teach that we are all in a state of spiritual ignorance and that he has given us a way to make progress towards diminishing and eventually ending this ignorance. I also think that he taught that even though we are in this state of ignorance we each must look at the world as it makes sense to us and try to see how the Buddha's teachings help to explain how it works and how to sharpen our skills so that we see reality more clearly.

My own view is that as we mature spiritually our ideas about what is right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable, and helpful and unhelpful will change and mature too. I don't think that the Buddha was saying that if you do not see the validity or the meaning of some of the teachings that you must accept or act on them.....but I think he taught that it is best for us to think about these things and study the scriptures and study life itself to see what it means. If we do this then it is almost guaranteed that we will make progress.

As to whether to kill insects or to keep a dog or whatever activity that might seem debateable.....try to understand the issues from as many perspecitves as you can find especially including Buddhist ideas.

I'm a farmer and I kill insects and rodents regularly....I don't really enjoy doing it....I avoid it...almost everytime I do it I try to have a calm heart and mind and not act out of anger or hatred but out of a feeling of necessity...I often apologize to them for doing this and I try to remember that they are alive just as I am alive and that they are impermanent just like I am impermanent and if I should die suddenly at any second (which is what my actions are causing for them) then that will be ok with me.....in short I try to be aware of the reality of what it is I am doing....trying to be mindful.

[ThaiPauly]

ThaiPauly,

I don't think it is quite right to talk in terms of what one "should" and "should not" do.....at least I have never got the impression from my readings of the scriptures or interpretations of them that this is what the Buddha was trying to convey.

I think that the Buddha was trying to teach that we are all in a state of spiritual ignorance and that he has given us a way to make progress towards diminishing and eventually ending this ignorance. I also think that he taught that even though we are in this state of ignorance we each must look at the world as it makes sense to us and try to see how the Buddha's teachings help to explain how it works and how to sharpen our skills so that we see reality more clearly.

My own view is that as we mature spiritually our ideas about what is right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable, and helpful and unhelpful will change and mature too. I don't think that the Buddha was saying that if you do not see the validity or the meaning of some of the teachings that you must accept or act on them.....but I think he taught that it is best for us to think about these things and study the scriptures and study life itself to see what it means. If we do this then it is almost guaranteed that we will make progress.

As to whether to kill insects or to keep a dog or whatever activity that might seem debateable.....try to understand the issues from as many perspecitves as you can find especially including Buddhist ideas.

I'm a farmer and I kill insects and rodents regularly....I don't really enjoy doing it....I avoid it...almost everytime I do it I try to have a calm heart and mind and not act out of anger or hatred but out of a feeling of necessity...I often apologize to them for doing this and I try to remember that they are alive just as I am alive and that they are impermanent just like I am impermanent and if I should die suddenly at any second (which is what my actions are causing for them) then that will be ok with me.....in short I try to be aware of the reality of what it is I am doing....trying to be mindful.

I can see the perfect sense you make with your post Chownah

Thank You