Thaksin And 30 Members Of His Cabinet Indicted

[TAWP]

The way how this one 56 year old man died was clearly not manslaughter.

He was down, and his head was repeatedly beaten until his face turned into something not very appetizing.

His head was not smashed as badly as your post would like to indicate. Have pictures to prove it was?

[TAWP]

One man dead in a street-fight is hardly murder. Manslaughter at best. Guess you are not a lawyer...

Now 2500 dead by special police forces acting on list from higher ups, that would be murders...have you been out protesting they should be brought to justice yet, Howsitgoin?

If you really want to delve in to who connived/approved/winked at the drugs war atrocities or who exactly the "higher ups" are, I should be intertested to hear the results of your research.

I think you are confused, I'm not doing any research.

But neither are any of you it seems. Or show much of a care.

[animatic]

One man dead in a street-fight is hardly murder. Manslaughter at best. Guess you are not a lawyer...

Now 2500 dead by special police forces acting on list from higher ups, that would be murders...have you been out protesting they should be brought to justice yet, Howsitgoin?

The way how this one 56 year old man died was clearly not manslaughter.

He was down, and his head was repeatedly beaten until his face turned into something not very appetizing.

The guy was high and came at them swinging a machette

and tried to get up and swing the machette again.

He should never have done that and the caused his death,

because it caused a natural defensive reaction

and adrenalin rush of panic in those he attacked.

The truely guilty asre those PPP PM's

and supporters who planned this outrage,

and sent a gang of drunken marauders

out searching for PAD members to attack.

And over and above those scum instigators is the chief instigator Samak,

wanting an excuse to put in the SoE,

only to find Anaupong wouldn't move for him.

I will blame Samak,

The PPP PM's

and those others that got them drunk and rilled the gang up,

those that directed them where to go

and the attacking gang members themselves

before I can lay ANY blame on PAD members.

They were guarding their territory and were attacked,

some over reacted, and not illogically. Manslaughter was a byproduct.

But the CAUSE was the instigation by PPP PM's at the stage.

And Samak's decision to let his dogs loose.

This man died for NOTHING, Samak didn't get the reaction he expected.

His hands were not clean before, but they remain bloodsoaked till his last breath.

If you plan for someone to commit a crime,

and during that crime they kill someone,

the PLANNER is EQUALLY culpable.

The instigators must go to their graves bearing FULL blame for this man's death.

I would like to see the report on this poor souls blood contents. It will have a story.

I doubt he went to his death with the clarity of mind he would have liked.

Edited September 27, 2008 by animatic

[sriracha john]

thread title:

Thaksin And 30 Members Of His Cabinet Indicted, total of 47 indicted on a variety of charges

Oh, yes, SJ, the thread title is about 30 members indictment, but

We have a brand new member here who wants to unravel all complexities of Thai politics for the past thirty years. Please give a newbie a warm welcome. We haven't talked about complexities in a long while, since last incarnation of that serial offender who signed under new name every couple of weeks just to talk about complexities.

That fellow was a real pest, like those PPP Cabinet members with several court cases hanging over them. Everytime they swear to start a new life and everytime it ends exactly the same.

and have you noticed how adept he is at not responding to yours or anyone else prompting as to his identity?

He must have gotten tired of being banned after quickly and freely admitting his identity previously. But with all posts subsequently removed, there's no history of these "complexities unraveling."

Have you gotten tired of that and that's why you won't "quickly and freely" admit your identity now, Colonel?

Edited September 27, 2008 by sriracha john

[Plus]

It's becoming a farce, just like politics.

Everyone pretends that this new member is really a new member, the letter of the law (forum rules) is not broken, he can claim reasonable doubt and presumption of innocence in his defence.

>>>

Using multiple identities is against forum rules, and for a good reason. Trying to impersonate someone else in order to advance your agenda is simply showing disrespect to other members who particpate in these discussions in good faith, and refusal to accept the faults and consequences of your own online behavior, stand up and speak for yourself is cowardice.

Even certified nutjobs in this forum don't stoop so low. Lots of people hate Sunrise, for example, but he never hides, he "fights" fairly, at least according to his own rules of debate, and I respect that.

>>>

Samak's removal for a relatively trivial offence seems like an exaggeration, but the truth is, he should never have accepted the post in the first place if he cared about the dignity of the office at all. He just wanted to taste the fame and glory. During international meetings and parties he'd spend all his time telling everyone over and over again that he was The Prime Minister of Thailand. He loved the sound of that.

He never seemed to acknowledge that he got this fame only due to Thaksin and not his personal achievements. He even declared that Thaksin was indebted to him, the vanity has clearly had taken over his head.

He clinged to his post until the last moment like a leech, bullying and intmidating anyone doubting his position.

Just another case of a talented individual being reduced to a state of a pathetic loser. I mean - that man can cook and he can talk, and he isn't stupid.

I can also think of some other examples of God taking away people's intellegence as a punishment.

[Howsitgoin]

He never seemed to acknowledge that he got this fame only due to Thaksin and not his personal achievements. He even declared that Thaksin was indebted to him, the vanity has clearly had taken over his head.

He clinged to his post until the last moment like a leech, bullying and intmidating anyone doubting his position.

Just another case of a talented individual being reduced to a state of a pathetic loser. I mean - that man can cook and he can talk, and he isn't stupid.

I can also think of some other examples of God taking away people's intellegence as a punishment.

That statement is wrong on so many levels i don't even know where to start.

Samak got his fame for having been an extreme right wing rabblerouser in the turbulent 70's. He was interior minister when the interior ministry was still the single most powerful ministry of the country. He was one of the closest advisers of H.M. The Queen during the 70's, himself from a family of palace insiders.

That was long before Thaksin ever thought of entering politics or starting a business.

And what has "God" to do with any of this? Can you be more specific?

[Howsitgoin]

The way how this one 56 year old man died was clearly not manslaughter.

He was down, and his head was repeatedly beaten until his face turned into something not very appetizing.

His head was not smashed as badly as your post would like to indicate. Have pictures to prove it was?

Oh, i guess that makes it OK then, because his head was only completely swollen and slightly disformed, his lower jaw completely misplaced with teeth sticking out at all the wrong places, but he was still somewhat recognizable as a human, and not just an ill defined bloody mess.

Very good. Still no condemnation of this murder.

Rather telling that even the Nation published an article condemning this incident, and the complete lack of acknowledgment by the PAD, which may not exactly fit the present topic of the evils of Thaksin, but does show the double standards existing in the present debate, and also by several active posters here.

Unless you PAD cultists find somehow a way to acknowledge and condemn what happened there, i would suggest to stay away from any topic that deals with law and legal process connected to the present political crises. One may get the impression that your motives for posting in these forums might be interpreted as political activism.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/09/22...on_30084032.php

BANGKOKIAN

PAD-initiated violence

By The Nation

Published on September 22, 2008

The People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) loves to point the finger at its opponents accusing them of using violence against its so-called peaceful assemblies, but it has done everything in its power to cover up the violence committed by its own members, particularly by PAD security guards.

PAD speakers and supporters consistently mention the incident in Udon Thani that saw a group of anti-government protesters attacked by a pro-government group. Likewise a minor clash that occurred between the PAD and police during the latter's first attempt to remove the group from Government House following a temporary order from the Civil Court is also brought up repeatedly to demonstrate how violence is being used against protesters.However, the self-proclaimed peace-loving PAD has never taken the violence committed by its own side seriously. Protest leaders have made aggressive demands for officials who injured protesters last month to be brought to justice, but they have not uttered a word over the death of Narongsak Kobthaisong during a clash between the PAD and rival group the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD) earlier this month. None of the PAD leaders called for justice for Narongsak, who was apparently from the DAAD side, never mind mentioning the possibility of an internal investigation to find the protesters responsible for the killing.

Violence on a different scale has taken place many times during the sit-in protest at Government House. Voluntary guards and the so-called Sri Wichai warriors have a deep mistrust for newcomers who join the protest and suspect them of being members of opposing groups there to infiltrate the protest.

Media representatives are not exempt from this treatment and must go through whole-body searches before entering the protest site. Many of them have also been harassed.

Mere suspicions have sometimes ended up in violence, as a video clip shot by a TV7 cameraman last week demonstrates. The station decided to broadcast the clip showing a group of PAD security guards beating a man at Makkhawan Bridge. The incident happened at about 5.30pm on September 17, when the man, later found out to be Nattaphong Thanetpaisan, walked among the protesters carrying a big bag. He was stopped by the guards, resisted their attempt to search him and was beaten as a result.

Once he realised that the beating was being filmed, one of the guards used a huge blue plastic tarp to block the scene, while the beating went on. The clip is now available on YouTube. A guard told reporters that Nattaphong had been struck because he had refused to allow guards to confiscate an air rifle that he had carried into the area. Nattaphong said he had not intended to carry the rifle onto the protest site but had been trying to walk through the protesters, who were blocking Ratchadamnoen Avenue, heading to Dusit Zoo.

Police said they could not arrest anybody since a complaint had not been filed over the incident. PAD's leaders paid the case no attention.

[Plus]

Oh, Samak was very famous in the 70s, so what? He obviously wasn't satisfied.

He lost it all in the late 90s, Bangkok governor post made him proud again, he still brags about collecting the largest number of votes in history.

It didn't work out and he made a humiliating exit via back door.

Getting PM's position eclipsed it all, the highest possible achievement.

Watching him for almost a year one need to be completely blind to think that he was doing it to serve the country and didn't have a trace of self-aggrandisement in it.

But we are ready to close our eyes for the red cause, aren't we, Howisithanging?

[Howsitgoin]

But we are ready to close our eyes for the red cause, aren't we, Howisithanging?

No, Pus, we are not closing our eyes - au contraire - we are very fascinated by every aspect of this crises.

[animatic]

Bringing a gun to a rally site as politically charged as this one,

is provocation and blindingly stupid. The guy refused to allow

inspection of his package by security. Red flags went up.

He then fought with security.

What is security for but to prevent strange people with weapons from

coming in and causing trouble. They would be pretty ineffective

as security if they were NOT prepared to use force to do their job.

The guy was just very, very STUPID and brought on his own beating.

Regardless of it being on film.

People walk in and out of PAD rally sites unmolested all day long,

the ONLY ones getting problems are those bringing problems to the site.

I see more Anti-PAD cultists here than the other way round.

Or are they part time employee's of the puppet master.

I DO see anti corruption fans

I DO see anti puppet government fans

I DO see people suggesting alternates to the non working system of present.

I DO see people looking at News Clippings and making assessments

And adding black humor occasionally to make it less painful to read too.

Edited September 28, 2008 by animatic

[sriracha john]

It's becoming a farce, just like politics.

Everyone pretends that this new member is really a new member, the letter of the law (forum rules) is not broken, he can claim reasonable doubt and presumption of innocence in his defence.

>>>

Using multiple identities is against forum rules, and for a good reason. Trying to impersonate someone else in order to advance your agenda is simply showing disrespect to other members who particpate in these discussions in good faith, and refusal to accept the faults and consequences of your own online behavior, stand up and speak for yourself is cowardice.

Even certified nutjobs in this forum don't stoop so low. Lots of people hate Sunrise, for example, but he never hides, he "fights" fairly, at least according to his own rules of debate, and I respect that.

respectfully suggest you save your breath, animatic...

[h90]

Bringing a gun to a rally site as politically charged as this one,

is provocation and blindingly stupid. The guy refused to allow

inspection of his package by security. Red flags went up.

He then fought with security.

What is security for but to prevent strange people with weapons from

coming in and causing trouble. They would be pretty ineffective

as security if they were NOT prepared to use force to do their job.

The guy was just very, very STUPID and brought on his own beating.

Regardless of it being on film.

People walk in and out of PAD rally sites unmolested all day long,

the ONLY ones getting problems are those bringing problems to the site.

I see more Anti-PAD cultists here than the other way round.

Or are they part time employee's of the puppet master.

I DO see anti corruption fans

I DO see anti puppet government fans

I DO see people suggesting alternates to the non working system of present.

I DO see people looking at News Clippings and making assessments

And adding black humor occasionally to make it less painful to read too.

beeing a fan of corruption and beeing a fan of the murder (war against drugs) Thaksin while being eductated enough to use the internet is relative improbable, there aren´t many (sunshine seems to be one), but I am sure there some hired from an advertising company.

That´s not a shame, the same happens at almost every election in almost every country. Even Wikipedia has some troubles as the profils of politicans change every day 10 times if elections are comming soon.

[Howsitgoin]

What is security for but to prevent strange people with weapons from

coming in and causing trouble. They would be pretty ineffective

as security if they were NOT prepared to use force to do their job.

The guy was just very, very STUPID and brought on his own beating.

Regardless of it being on film.

First of all - professional security would have detained such a person, and not beaten this person repeatedly while on the ground, as seen on the Youtube Video clearly.

Why do you go to any length to justify even murder to defend the actions of PAD?

PAD has every right to protest, to have their views heard. But PAD has completely overstepped any constitutional right of protest, latest since the point they have staged an armed attacked against NBT, and illegally occupied government house. Their leaders have arrest warrants out against them for treason - a charge much more severe than any charge against Thaksin.

Yet - they blatantly ignore this, and their supporters, like so many here on this forum do that as well.

PAD and their cultists treat the law as if it is a simple tool to be used to destroy their opponents, as seen in this thread, though ignore the law when it is applied against their own actions, which are accumulating - treason, murder, etc.

As Sanitchuda Ekachai wrote in her article on 'Media and Demagogues': "If you want neutrality from the PAD, forget it. If you want rational discussion, forget it."

http://www.bangkokpost.com/blogs/index.php...agogues?blog=64

Edited September 28, 2008 by Howsitgoin

[Siripon]

What is security for but to prevent strange people with weapons from

coming in and causing trouble. They would be pretty ineffective

as security if they were NOT prepared to use force to do their job.

The guy was just very, very STUPID and brought on his own beating.

Regardless of it being on film.

First of all - professional security would have detained such a person, and not beaten this person repeatedly while on the ground, as seen on the Youtube Video clearly.

Why do you go to any length to justify even murder to defend the actions of PAD?

PAD has every right to protest, to have their views heard. But PAD has completely overstepped any constitutional right of protest, latest since the point they have staged an armed attacked against NBT, and illegally occupied government house. Their leaders have arrest warrants out against them for treason - a charge much more severe than any charge against Thaksin.

Yet - they blatantly ignore this, and their supporters, like so many here on this forum do that as well.

PAD and their cultists treat the law as if it is a simple tool to be used to destroy their opponents, as seen in this thread, though ignore the law when it is applied against their own actions, which are accumulating - treason, murder, etc.

As Sanitchuda Ekachai wrote in her article on 'Media and Demagogues': "If you want neutrality from the PAD, forget it. If you want rational discussion, forget it."

http://www.bangkokpost.com/blogs/index.php...agogues?blog=64

The treason charge is very likely to be dropped as there was no attempt to seize control of the state's mechanisms and hence power, only the building.Do you seriously believe the charge of trespassing and illegal occupation is more serious than the charges Thaksin is facing?!

The murder- the UAD marched from Sanam Luang armed with swords,bars and sticks to attack the PAD. What were the PAD supposed to do, roll over and play dead?

I disagree with many of the tactics of the PAD but the central premise of the need for political reform appeals to many.

For instance, how could so called October veterans like Surapong and Chaturon stomach joining with the October 5 apologist, Samak? It makes my stomach churn to see how morally bankrupt the PPP leaders are.

[hammered]

What is security for but to prevent strange people with weapons from

coming in and causing trouble. They would be pretty ineffective

as security if they were NOT prepared to use force to do their job.

The guy was just very, very STUPID and brought on his own beating.

Regardless of it being on film.

First of all - professional security would have detained such a person, and not beaten this person repeatedly while on the ground, as seen on the Youtube Video clearly.

Why do you go to any length to justify even murder to defend the actions of PAD?

PAD has every right to protest, to have their views heard. But PAD has completely overstepped any constitutional right of protest, latest since the point they have staged an armed attacked against NBT, and illegally occupied government house. Their leaders have arrest warrants out against them for treason - a charge much more severe than any charge against Thaksin.

Yet - they blatantly ignore this, and their supporters, like so many here on this forum do that as well.

PAD and their cultists treat the law as if it is a simple tool to be used to destroy their opponents, as seen in this thread, though ignore the law when it is applied against their own actions, which are accumulating - treason, murder, etc.

As Sanitchuda Ekachai wrote in her article on 'Media and Demagogues': "If you want neutrality from the PAD, forget it. If you want rational discussion, forget it."

http://www.bangkokpost.com/blogs/index.php...agogues?blog=64

The treason charge is very likely to be dropped as there was no attempt to seize control of the state's mechanisms and hence power, only the building.Do you seriously believe the charge of trespassing and illegal occupation is more serious than the charges Thaksin is facing?!

The murder- the UAD marched from Sanam Luang armed with swords,bars and sticks to attack the PAD. What were the PAD supposed to do, roll over and play dead?

I disagree with many of the tactics of the PAD but the central premise of the need for political reform appeals to many.

For instance, how could so called October veterans like Surapong and Chaturon stomach joining with the October 5 apologist, Samak? It makes my stomach churn to see how morally bankrupt the PPP leaders are.

The Octoberists are pretty much split into at least five groups now:

The PAD supporters

The Newin supporters

The ex-PPP/TRT group who dont side with Newin and are no longer PPP

The PPP supporting loyalists

The neutrals

I agree that the treason charge wont come to anything.

[Howsitgoin]

The treason charge is very likely to be dropped as there was no attempt to seize control of the state's mechanisms and hence power, only the building.Do you seriously believe the charge of trespassing and illegal occupation is more serious than the charges Thaksin is facing?!

The murder- the UAD marched from Sanam Luang armed with swords,bars and sticks to attack the PAD. What were the PAD supposed to do, roll over and play dead?

I disagree with many of the tactics of the PAD but the central premise of the need for political reform appeals to many.

For instance, how could so called October veterans like Surapong and Chaturon stomach joining with the October 5 apologist, Samak? It makes my stomach churn to see how morally bankrupt the PPP leaders are.

I seriously believe that the charge of treason is more serious than anything Thaksin is charged with. To be dropped or not - is up to the courts to decide, as the charges against Thaksin are.

The attack by UDD is not within the law, clearly, and i do not condone this. Nevertheless - the man murdered, elderly like most of the seriously injured, was not harmed during actual fighting, but was down already, beaten and battered repeatedly, the blows aimed mostly at his head. This was not anymore self defense.

The clearly not legal UDD attack does not justify the murder. Both are wrong.

The terrible fact though is that the state mechanics have been unable to deal with the clearly illegal actions of PAD in Bangkok even, and therefore a vaccum has been created that has allowed citicen groups to take the law into their own hand.

Of course you may counter that previously the UDD attack in Udon was also not being handled correctly. Which is of course is a correct argumentation, but we should not dismiss the fact that upcountry the process of the law is much more dominated and hindred by patronage politics than in Bangkok.

Anyway - two wrongs don't make a right.

The initiative is clearly carried by PAD, their tactics and strategies are superior to UDD's, and therefore the collapse of the state is to be seen as the responsibility of PAD. I would even go so far, that a master strategist such as Chamlong Srimuang has intended this situation.

From my conversations with Oktober veterans i gather that it indeed is a very uncomfortable fact that suddenly they find themselves allied with especially Samak. Nevertheless, we should not just reduce them to simply Samak or Thaksin paid stooges.

Their agendas for a more egalitarian society is still there, and Thai realpolitics (not only in Thailand though) creates at times strange bedfellows.

Samak is out now, and i am sure that many of those Oktober veterans are not too sad about this.

Equally, if not more, disturbing is how Oktober veterans join PAD - a group whose ultranationalist social conservative agenda is even more diametrically opposed to socialist ideals those Oktober veterans once stood for. From a ideology that embraced the rights of the poor to an ideology that tries to take away their vote and voice openly, that dismisses polemically, against every available research, the vote of those as simply having been "bought".

PAD has on their side even more shady characters than Samak that have committed terrible crimes during the 70s and 80s - people like Panlop Pinmanee. How do the PAD Oktober veterans feel to be on the same side with such people?

The morally clean position is to join neither yellow nor red. And some academics have recently started this initiative. Unfortunately nowadays that reduces actors to irrelevance, as very few are willing to listen.

Edited September 28, 2008 by Howsitgoin

[sriracha john]

It's becoming a farce, just like politics.

Using multiple identities is against forum rules, and for a good reason. Trying to impersonate someone else in order to advance your agenda is simply showing disrespect to other members who particpate in these discussions in good faith, and refusal to accept the faults and consequences of your own online behavior, stand up and speak for yourself is cowardice.

Even certified nutjobs in this forum don't stoop so low. Lots of people hate Sunrise, for example, but he never hides, he "fights" fairly, at least according to his own rules of debate, and I respect that.

and on and on it goes

[animatic]

A treason charge put in place by that law abiding citizen Kuhn Samak.

It is destined as a foot note.

Samak caused actual rioting and unrest by unleashing DAAD/UDD into the streets,

to provoque the army into moving against to save HIS FACE... it didn't work.

PAD never professed to have "Professional Security".

This is mostly a grass roots group protesting

profesional GRAFTERS running the government.

So were DAAD / UDD professional ANYTHING...?

Professional rabble rousers maybe?

Professional Taxi Driver Mafia wanting the perks back.

If they were professional soldiers PAD would be gone now.

Vicsious drunken amateurs fighting in the streets

will only cause havoc, but not solve the ongoing corruption problem.

Cut and paste cut and paste Cut and paste cut and paste Cut and paste cut and paste Cut and paste cut and paste

Edited September 28, 2008 by animatic

[Howsitgoin]

Vicsious drunken amateurs fighting in the streets

will only cause havoc, but not solve the ongoing corruption problem.

Very true.

And that includes the PAD, being the group that has the most street presence here.

[animatic]

Vicsious drunken amateurs fighting in the streets

will only cause havoc, but not solve the ongoing corruption problem.

Very true.

And that includes the PAD, being the group that has the most street presence here.

But no visable drunkenness, and only fighting when attacked by others.

A different kettle of fish.

Mostly orderly Civil Disobedience vs drunken rabble rousing and vicious attacks on others.

One is making a point about societal governance by more extended means,

the other is attempting to silence the former with violence and intimidation.

[Howsitgoin]

But no visable drunkenness, and only fighting when attacked by others.

A different kettle of fish.

Of course, PAD guards only show visible drug use. Don't you remember the large amount of Bai Kratom leaves police has confiscated from them during their court ordered attempt to disperse the protest?

Where PAD has resisted and attacked police as well.

Orderly civil disobedience has stopped at the armed attack at NBT - a TV station.

[Plus]

But we are ready to close our eyes for the red cause, aren't we, Howisithanging?

No, Pus, we are not closing our eyes - au contraire - we are very fascinated by every aspect of this crises.

So, which one of them got you banned?

My guess is intolerance of Thai monarchy.

It's Monday, ready to curse yellow shirts people yet? I got one.

>>>>

I don't know exactly who you were in your previous incarnations but judging from the tone of your posts and their general direction, we are not that far away from calls to re-examine Thai history, social order, and the ultimate conclusion - all ills in the present society are results of monarchial system.

So, why don't you reveal the purpose of you coming back to this board, your end game? Even Christian missionaries tell you right away who they are working for. You, on the other hand, want to chip away little by little and hide your true motives until people are "ready".

Fishing for newbies, huh? Cos me and some others heard this one before, it's boring to go through the same routine over and over again.

Or maybe you are genuine new comer? Silly me, then. I apologise.

[younghusband]

It's Monday, ready to curse yellow shirts people yet? I got one.

So have I.Actually I'm not sure that yellow shirts represent a political statement one way or the other these days other than indicating respect and affection.As always some will try and wrap the colour or the flag or some other national symbol round a specific agenda.They are wrong and in my view guilty of a great crime in seeking to exploit for a partisan cause a much loved and unifying national institution which should be above politics, sometimes even resorting to Mcarthyite tactics of which your post is an example.

[Plus]

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. There is a reason why this "new" member doesn't want to disclose his posting history on Thaivisa.

There were folks here whose hatred towards yellow shirts extended far beyond their distaste for all things PAD.

[Howsitgoin]

we are not that far away from calls to re-examine Thai history, social order, and the ultimate conclusion - all ills in the present society are results of monarchial system.

Take a step back here.

This topic is, as you should know, so far out of bounds that i have to wonder about your sanity making such a statement here in public, and i will not be drawn into a discussion of this topic.

Stop second guessing me and throwing around with bad mannered assumptions and wild conspiracy theories.

If you want to discuss with me, then do yourself a favor and start answering on the issues i have raised. If you are in need to discuss the monarchy - then i will refuse to respond. Dig your own grave - don't pull me or others in as well.

[sriracha john]

Dig your own grave

Give it a rest... it's been almost a year.

[hammered]

The treason charge is very likely to be dropped as there was no attempt to seize control of the state's mechanisms and hence power, only the building.Do you seriously believe the charge of trespassing and illegal occupation is more serious than the charges Thaksin is facing?!

The murder- the UAD marched from Sanam Luang armed with swords,bars and sticks to attack the PAD. What were the PAD supposed to do, roll over and play dead?

I disagree with many of the tactics of the PAD but the central premise of the need for political reform appeals to many.

For instance, how could so called October veterans like Surapong and Chaturon stomach joining with the October 5 apologist, Samak? It makes my stomach churn to see how morally bankrupt the PPP leaders are.

I seriously believe that the charge of treason is more serious than anything Thaksin is charged with. To be dropped or not - is up to the courts to decide, as the charges against Thaksin are.

The attack by UDD is not within the law, clearly, and i do not condone this. Nevertheless - the man murdered, elderly like most of the seriously injured, was not harmed during actual fighting, but was down already, beaten and battered repeatedly, the blows aimed mostly at his head. This was not anymore self defense.

The clearly not legal UDD attack does not justify the murder. Both are wrong.

The terrible fact though is that the state mechanics have been unable to deal with the clearly illegal actions of PAD in Bangkok even, and therefore a vaccum has been created that has allowed citicen groups to take the law into their own hand.

Of course you may counter that previously the UDD attack in Udon was also not being handled correctly. Which is of course is a correct argumentation, but we should not dismiss the fact that upcountry the process of the law is much more dominated and hindred by patronage politics than in Bangkok.

Anyway - two wrongs don't make a right.

The initiative is clearly carried by PAD, their tactics and strategies are superior to UDD's, and therefore the collapse of the state is to be seen as the responsibility of PAD. I would even go so far, that a master strategist such as Chamlong Srimuang has intended this situation.

From my conversations with Oktober veterans i gather that it indeed is a very uncomfortable fact that suddenly they find themselves allied with especially Samak. Nevertheless, we should not just reduce them to simply Samak or Thaksin paid stooges.

Their agendas for a more egalitarian society is still there, and Thai realpolitics (not only in Thailand though) creates at times strange bedfellows.

Samak is out now, and i am sure that many of those Oktober veterans are not too sad about this.

Equally, if not more, disturbing is how Oktober veterans join PAD - a group whose ultranationalist social conservative agenda is even more diametrically opposed to socialist ideals those Oktober veterans once stood for. From a ideology that embraced the rights of the poor to an ideology that tries to take away their vote and voice openly, that dismisses polemically, against every available research, the vote of those as simply having been "bought".

PAD has on their side even more shady characters than Samak that have committed terrible crimes during the 70s and 80s - people like Panlop Pinmanee. How do the PAD Oktober veterans feel to be on the same side with such people?

The morally clean position is to join neither yellow nor red. And some academics have recently started this initiative. Unfortunately nowadays that reduces actors to irrelevance, as very few are willing to listen.

Agree with this. That it reduces actors to irrelevence also probably means that any soultion to what is going on will be very far from perfect and maybe invested with a degree of instability further down the line.

[Samuian]

.....edit..... It makes my stomach churn to see how morally bankrupt the PPP leaders are.

Nothing to add!

Now is the question how to purge the nation of this nuisance?

and make the system resistant against ever repeating encroachment!

[Howsitgoin]

.....edit..... It makes my stomach churn to see how morally bankrupt the PPP leaders are.

Nothing to add!

Now is the question how to purge the nation of this nuisance?

and make the system resistant against ever repeating encroachment!

It makes my bile raise when i have to see how Thailand's problems are simplistically and polemically reduced to "morally bankrupt" PPP leaders - this is intellectual bankruptcy that has brought Thailand into the mess it is now.

Now a revolution is performed by people as tainted as the leaders they accuse, with a political aim that they have so far completely failed to define more than in infantile and unrealistic statements of intent, with tactics of creating chaos and destruction, that already resulted in the death of one man, and disabilities of several others (don't forget the Ranger that has lost a leg during the Preah Vihear idiocy).

PAD, its cultists and supporters have damaged Thailand more than Thaksin could have possibly managed to do, and made Thaksin, TRT/PPP look far better than they are.

Thaksin and 30 members of his cabinet indicted is completely irrelevant as long as his accusers have shown nothing but disregard for the law.

Edited September 29, 2008 by Howsitgoin

[Plus]

It makes my bile raise...

Is it what you have been banned for?

To get a lifetime ban one need to be a serial offender, or go for a "big one". Usual flames result in a few days suspension at most.

Why should I give you a benefit of doubt and discuss "issues"?

Here's an issue I want to be addressed first - are you a genuine new member or an old hag banned for life?

I guess it's not the first time for both of us, spare me the drama. Old Colpyat was very adept and hanging out red herrings, it wasn't an offence in itself but was very tiresome. In the end he'd abuse everyone right and left or shouted something stupid on forbidden subjects.

So far you do not behave very differently, I'm afraid it will all end in tears yet again.