Anatta - How Can We Unattach From The Concept Of Self

[AYJAYDEE]

I'm a bit rusty and would appreciate the members of this forum discussing this topic as, when I studied Buddhism many years ago I always had trouble understanding how to unattach from my 'self'. Especially when the world/society/friends etc see s as a 'self' with specific characteristics - Seonai who likes Italian food, doesn't like violence and wears outlandish clothes for example

as far as ive seen it addressed, it seems that one shud merely remind oneself that the self is impermanent and leave it at that. when the time comes, the truth of this will become evident and the problem will go away. i realize this may conflict with other advice to believe nothing that cannot be verified for oneself, so i guess the best thing to do is remember that it is said by some that this is true and if it is true, it will be seen as true at some future time and if it isnt , this too will be seen as true at some time. either way, the truth will be seen and the question will become irrelevant.

so for now, i plan on acting as if anatta is in fact tru and if i find out i am mistaken, then i will be less mistaken.

[AYJAYDEE]

So what do you guys say the self is?

Is it a mental codification - a summary that is accorded a status apart from its components- composed of all those things that the mind relates to the satisfaction of its own needs?

Do animals have a 'self'? Do plants? Do amoeba? And what happens to the self when the amoeba splits in two? Does each of the 'offspring' have a self? And what happened then, to the original's 'self'?

what anatta means to me is there is no PERMANENT UNCHANGING self.

[Samuian]

...got an answer these days I didn't even had a question yet for it...

[sleepyjohn]

I'm a bit rusty and would appreciate the members of this forum discussing this topic as, when I studied Buddhism many years ago I always had trouble understanding how to unattach from my 'self'. Especially when the world/society/friends etc see s as a 'self' with specific characteristics - Seonai who likes Italian food, doesn't like violence and wears outlandish clothes for example

Seonai

the Buddha repeated one teaching again and again. It's a practise for becoming cognizant of the parts that we are made up of physical and mental and addresses your request directly. I used it as my main practise for quite some time and it works. It's now called the Satipatthana Sutta.........something like the "establishment of (the four foundations of) mindfulness".....and I think it's in the Digha Nikaya.

There's a good book with the text and interpretation whose author escapes me now late at night but it's quite understandable anyway I'm sure you'll find texts on the net choose a readable one.

[seonai]

Sleepy John,

I read the Satipatthana Sutta and i have read it many years ago actually and I see it's significance but it sort of scares me in a sense... it scares me because I feel that if I can totally understand it, I will completely change

I guess I'm still clinging to the 'me' aspect

Does anyone else feel that?

[camerata]

I guess I'm still clinging to the 'me' aspect

Does anyone else feel that?

Yes, I think everyone is afraid to some extent of the idea of giving up self-view for the same reason we are afraid of death. But since few of us are likely to reach sotapanna level in this life, there's really no need to worry. Also, the way Ajahn Sumedho (among others) explains it, elimination of self-view ends the separation of the individual from everything else in the cosmos. We are no longer alone. I believe this non-aloneness accounts for much of the "bliss" of nibbana.

On the more mundane level, any serious practice of Dhamma results in substantial changes to our personality. It's not like, say, Power Yoga, where a competitive businessman can recharge his batteries and then go back and kick ass at the office. The same businessman practising Dhamma (correctly!) would end up changing his job.

[sabaijai]

Sleepy John,

I read the Satipatthana Sutta and i have read it many years ago actually and I see it's significance but it sort of scares me in a sense... it scares me because I feel that if I can totally understand it, I will completely change

I guess I'm still clinging to the 'me' aspect

Does anyone else feel that?

I think anyone who practices dhamma eventually faces this fear. At first the task of overcoming the idea of self seems impossible, and then when we actually see, through practice/right view, that it's entirely possible to see through the fiction, emotional reactions such as fear, regret, etc, crop up naturally.

It's like seeing a mountain in front of you and thinking there's no way you can move it. But you study and practice dhamma anyway and then one day, you suddenly realise you've picked up that mountain and are holding it over your head. What to do now? If you let go, the mountain will crush you. But once you've picked it up, it's very difficult to put down.

I expressed a similar fear to dhamma teacher Joseph Goldstein during a retreat once. He chuckled and said, 'That's dhamma for you. Once it has its hooks in you, it'll drag you kicking and screaming all the way to nibbana if you let it.'

Of course it's not 'you' or 'I' accomplishing any of this. It's sati. When sati comes to the fore, there is no self, no fear and no regret.

[chownah]

Sleepy John,

I read the Satipatthana Sutta and i have read it many years ago actually and I see it's significance but it sort of scares me in a sense... it scares me because I feel that if I can totally understand it, I will completely change

I guess I'm still clinging to the 'me' aspect

Does anyone else feel that?

The Buddha teaches that all things are impremanent (with the exception of nibhanna)...this means that no matter what, you will completely change...it is impossible to stop this process....so the question becomes which things do you want to incorporate into your changing? I don't think that you need to fear that there will be some instantaneous major change in your existence (although I suppose this could happen).....almost assuredly you will change slowly and by small degrees. If you see that a certain change is likely to come and that realization is unsettling or upleasant in some way then just try to be aware of the feelings that arise...try to be aware of when and how they arise...remember that these feelings are impermanent and will pass too.

Chownah

[seonai]

Camerata, Sabaijai and Chownah, thanks!! Yes that's the feeling. When I was practising before (about 13 years ago now) I reached a point where I nearly ordained as a nun in Bkk because I wanted to be away from wordly things and continue my practise. Then I married and had a child - something I said I'd never do and afterwards felt it was 'Gam' taking place naturally. I had more wordly stuff to learn.

I feel in my life, once, I have been near that moment of seeing something much higher than 'existance' and that I ran from it because it frightened me - that was purely via Theravadin style meditation

Quick edit to mention that I am a great follower of the Kalama Sutta which says that 'Even if I (the Buddha) speaks of something you do not have to believe it until you have actual experience of it yourself and know it to be true' - ie 'blind' faith is not Buddhist, it must be experienced by the individual

For example, I think (not belive) that my experience with meditation and my fear of 'letting go' comes from past life experience in one way or another but I have no logic to support this information

[seonai]

camerata I love the bit about the power yoga and the business man studying Dhamma and SabaiJai I love this 'If you let go, the mountain will crush you. But once you've picked it up, it's very difficult to put down.'

[jamesc2000]

I don’t know about everyone else here but I cannot wait to get rid of my alter ego James!

James really isn’t me!

[AYJAYDEE]

I'm a bit rusty and would appreciate the members of this forum discussing this topic as, when I studied Buddhism many years ago I always had trouble understanding how to unattach from my 'self'. Especially when the world/society/friends etc see s as a 'self' with specific characteristics - Seonai who likes Italian food, doesn't like violence and wears outlandish clothes for example

your "self" is in a constant state of change. you are not the same person u were a second ago due to things that happened internally and externally so the self you were supposeedly attached to no longer exists

[jamesc2000]

I always get confused when I read there is no permanent unchanging self.

So I think there is something there but it is something that keeps changing - like the weather.

I think it might be more correct to say there is nothing, there is no self.

Although we feel solid and real, we actually do not exist. “We” are just illusions.

We don’t exist and nothing exist.

If we knew that the “self” does not exist, then maybe it might be easier not wanting to be attached to nothing.

[AYJAYDEE]

we exist at any moment in time but we do not possess a permanent unchanging essence or self. our existance can be likened to a candle flame. the gasses being burned at any instant are not the same as the ones that burned an instant ago but are the direct result of those gases that burned before. the flame looks to be the same flame observed previously but is not in fact the same flame! so our existance as a sentient being. we look the same as an instant ago but we are not. we are however created by the existance of an instant ago.

[camerata]

I always had trouble understanding how to unattach from my 'self'. Especially when the world/society/friends etc see s as a 'self' with specific characteristics - Seonai who likes Italian food, doesn't like violence and wears outlandish clothes for example

As for the "how," I think every aspect of the eightfold path is a method of diminishing attachment to the self. From the simplest practice (like dana or Right Speech) up to meditative absorbtion, everything is geared towards selflessness. The thing about your "personality" is to realize that it is simply cause and effect. That you don't like violence is an effect of genetic programming going right back to the beginning of the species. That you like outlandish clothes may be an effect of your life experience - perhaps a leftover from a rebellious phase in your youth. It's pretty easy to see every aspect of personality as cause and effect and not some inherent qualities that form an unchanging self.

Something else that is emphasized especially by Ajahn Sumedho is that our memories and dreams (for the future) tend to strengthen the sense of a continuous self. But memories aren't real and dreams aren't real. You can't recreate with 100% accuracy an event that happened in the past, and in any case it is just a visual thought rather than the actual event. Thoughts about the future are just fantasies because the future will never happen the way we think it will. Hence the practice of staying in the present moment, through meditation or daily mindfulness.

I think the things we do to enhance the self - like wearing outlandish clothes perhaps - need to be reduced as much as possible. At least that's what I try to do.

[jamesc2000]

I really don’t mean to be difficult or obtuse but the concept of outlandish clothes is just a concept of your mind!

What is outlandish is particular to your mind and maybe normal to another person. What maybe outlandish to you one minute might be ok another minute when you thought about it again.

A man wearing a bright orange dress maybe outlandish to you but maybe perfectly normal to a monk.

Edited January 11, 2008 by jamesc2000

[camerata]

I always get confused when I read there is no permanent unchanging self.

It's clearer if you look at the teaching of the three characteristics of existence - anicca (impermanence), dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anatta (not-self). It's the impermanence of ourself and things around us that cause all the suffering, and it's because of the impermanence that nothing has a permanent self or essence.

We can see quite easily that when our favourite camera breaks down, that it didn't have a permanent existence as a camera, and this causes us unhappiness because it's not what we wanted. Our spouse's looks will deteriorate over the years and this will cause us some unhappiness. We ourselves will change physically and mentally and this will cause us suffering too. It's this clinging to the self as a permanent, unchanging entity that causes all the problems.