Racism Against Isaan Folk By Bkk Thais?

[RY12]

I have a gf from Isaan and I've been wondering if there really is 'racism' or bias against Isaaners in central Thailand (bkk) and if so how serious it is. Looking on the net, it appears like only in the last 50 years that Isaaners have stopped viewing themselves as Lao, if it even has stopped. Yet it also appears like linguistically and culturally Laos isn't that different from central Thailand in the first place. So I'm not clear what's going on. Obviously Isaan people are poorer, and supposedly they look different from bkk thais because they may have flatter/wider noses, and might have darker skin (but that could just be because they work in the sun, and the thais with prominent noses are actually half-chinese). But when it comes down to it, do Thais really see a difference? to my untrained eye they all look the same, except in Bkk I notice some more Chinese-looking Thais (whiter skin, prominent noses).

So will an elite social circle in Bkk ostracize an Isaaner? What if the Isaaner is rich? educated? Should an Isaan person feel ashamed to try to call themselves Thai, i.e. are they being disrespectful to their Lao heritage when they say they're Thai? I don't want my gf to try to imitate or suck up to Bkk Thais if she is actually distinct from them and they actually look down on her heritage- I want her to be proud of her heritage and not try to feign like she's Thai like the gov't apparently wants.

My last question- do educated or non-educated Bkk Thais serious view themselves as the masters of SE Asia like I've heard, or do the educated ones realize that's not true? I know for a fact that in many respects the Khmer 'civilized' SE Asia in the Middle Ages, despite the fact that everyone in SE Asia seems to hate them. Architecture, trade, and customs mostly came from the Khmer as I understood it. It appears as if 1000 years ago, the Thais and Lao (back then indistinguishable from eachother) came down into Khmer-controlled SE Asia from their snowy home in China (hence their lighter skin compared to the Khmer, and the steep roofs of Thai houses). The Lao broke off from the Thais and settled in the crappy eastern land. But everything seemed to mix and no ethnicity seemed more advanced than the other.

I wonder if at the time of colonization (1800's) the Thais AT THAT TIME viewed themselves as superior, or if all of SE Asia was equally respected. Maybe the only reason the modern Bkk Thais view themselves as superior is because, for unrelated circumstances, they happened to have a good trading area in Bangkok and happened to have good diplomacy with the West, NOT because of any inherently superior society.

I have no idea if I'm correct or not, all I know is that the people who are the LEAST Thai in this whole are equation are those half-Chinese that Thai media and culture seems to glorify as the beautiful leaders of SE Asia. I can tell you with near certainty that there's no way in hel_l the old kings of Siam looked anything like these chinese-looking baffoons on Thai tv. Go ahead and claim that Chinese culture and appearance is superior is to Thailand's, but don't try to claim that the Chinese traits ARE Thai!!

Edited November 30, 2007 by RY12

[phibunmike]

I think reading Pira Sudham's books would give you an insight into this from the Isaan perspective.

Cheers,

Mike

[lukey1979]

Mate Lighten up!

Does'nt every big city of every country in this world turn its nose up at the outside, outdoorsy folk ? Yes in my experience they do. Where i come from in the south of England we call the northeners monkeys! So what They call us shandy drinking Poofs! haha.

It hasnt come to ethnic cleansing just yet so hold that phone call to the United Nations.

[Prakanong]

Mate Lighten up!

Does'nt every big city of every country in this world turn its nose up at the outside, outdoorsy folk ? Yes in my experience they do. Where i come from in the south of England we call the northeners monkeys! So what They call us shandy drinking Poofs! haha.

It hasnt come to ethnic cleansing just yet so hold that phone call to the United Nations.

But its true southerners are soft southern shandy drinkers

Sorry could not resist - I agree with you. The BKK Thai's are credited to always looking down on their country cousins from Isaan but as you point out this happens in many many countries around the world.

I have never ever heard any of my Thai colleagues at my current company ever put down Isaan people and they are all BKK Thai's or Sino-Thai's middle class and educated. They might not do it in front of me?

I have heard other nationalities I work with put others down and comment on national traits. Its mostly comments though and not meant to be put downs ie Aussies ae vociferous, Indians ask too many questions, Singaporeans are anal, Filipino's like to have fun, sing and dance and so on.

Outside of work I have heard a lot more - some Singaporeans can be quite superior regarding Malay's, Indonesians etc. I have heard Indians blame the Burmese for being thieves.

There are national traits though that can be identified, even regional traits - but we should recognise the strengths of these and if we find these funny try not to use it to put others down (I must admit I do take the piss out of a certain Euro country and their mannerisms but thats a work thing )

Edited November 30, 2007 by Prakanong

[RY12]

Maybe I should lighten up mate, it's just that it's pretty shocking to learn your gf is in a caste system, if it really is such. Granted, it may just be like what you guys say- just a city-rural thing. I've read on the internet about how it's social suicide to go to events in BKK with your gf if she's Isaan- I wonder if that really is "caste tension" or if it's just social unconformtable-ness like if I took a mexican immigrant girlfriend to a company picnic.

Let me know about your personal experiences. My gf herself says its more of a poor/rich thing, and she's seriously Lao looking! almost like a hills tribe woman.

Wikipedia says 16% of Thais are Thai-Chinsese, and HALF of Bangkokers are Thai-Chinese! Apparently it wasn't until the 70s that they fully assimilated, and now they're in positions of power and wealth; apparently even the King is part chinsese. I've also read that these Thai-Chinese look down on Thais! So I wonder if there really is a tension between Thais and Isaaners, or if it's just between Thai-Chinese and Isaaners. dam_n Chinese! Well, I guess getting angry at their racism only dignifies it...

[RY12]

I think reading Pira Sudham's books would give you an insight into this from the Isaan perspective.

Cheers,

Mike

Thanks, I've looked into it and it looks like a good read.

[Prakanong]

Maybe I should lighten up mate, it's just that it's pretty shocking to learn your gf is in a caste system, if it really is such. Granted, it may just be like what you guys say- just a city-rural thing. I've read on the internet about how it's social suicide to go to events in BKK with your gf if she's Isaan- I wonder if that really is "caste tension" or if it's just social unconformtable-ness like if I took a mexican immigrant girlfriend to a company picnic.

Let me know about your personal experiences. My gf herself says its more of a poor/rich thing, and she's seriously Lao looking! almost like a hills tribe woman.

Wikipedia says 16% of Thais are Thai-Chinsese, and HALF of Bangkokers are Thai-Chinese! Apparently it wasn't until the 70s that they fully assimilated, and now they're in positions of power and wealth; apparently even the King is part chinsese. I've also read that these Thai-Chinese look down on Thais! So I wonder if there really is a tension between Thais and Isaaners, or if it's just between Thai-Chinese and Isaaners. dam_n Chinese! Well, I guess getting angry at their racism only dignifies it...

I can assure you I took my ex-Missus from Isaan to company events. Maybve they were too polite to say anything but she never complained and neither did one girl before her.

Maybe it is a poor rich thing but all the girls from our BKK office a little rich kids

She also came to company events in Singapore with Singaporeans, Chinese (from mainland) Indian, Filipino, Euro's and they bloody doted on her - that did not happen in Thailand but i was not expecting that.

Remember - a lot of other Asians look down on Thailand and all of its people - they like visiting for food, shopping golf, the beach and sex but..............................

Edited November 30, 2007 by Prakanong

[meadish_sweetball]

It isn't a caste system as a real caste system is much more rigid.

There are no laws stopping Isaanites from getting tertiary education or rising to positions of power except for the same prejudiced mechanisms and attitudes that can stop people from outside the accepted power elite rising to positions of power in other countries.

It's true Isaanites are often stereotypes as being boorish, uneducated country-bumpkins, etc. but that doesn't mean they can't make it in life, it just means it can be more of an uphill struggle and requires a (metaphorically) thick skin.

The taboos associated with a caste system is something else.

[Ollie]

Well my wife must be confused as she was born and raised in Bkk, then moved to the village where her family now live, then worked for a few years in Bkk (Colgate) and now she's with me in the UK.

Her preferred destination to live - her village.

Where will we end up? In Korat or the surrounds, but not in her village!

The only areas in Bkk she is uncomfortable in is near those areas, as she thinks being seen with me, she is viewed as, well, you can guess what. I guess that makes her a snob? So no more hotels in Soi5 for me (Soi77 next time).

She just talks about hi-so, lo-so and as she and I are firmly in the latter, we're both comfortable.

[tomo22]

It isn't a caste system as a real caste system is much more rigid.

There are no laws stopping Isaanites from getting tertiary education or rising to positions of power except for the same prejudiced mechanisms and attitudes that can stop people from outside the accepted power elite rising to positions of power in other countries.

It's true Isaanites are often stereotypes as being boorish, uneducated country-bumpkins, etc. but that doesn't mean they can't make it in life, it just means it can be more of an uphill struggle and requires a (metaphorically) thick skin.

The taboos associated with a caste system is something else.

No doubt about it yes they do and the chinese variants are the worst. My wife deals with then very well.

When they are rude she just says is that your Merc or BMW there. How many more repayments must you make. Then she will say we have money in the bank in property in farming what fund do you have Nil. A mortgage, loans for car, school fee's. What happens if you lose your job. My husband holds so and so position in his company whats yours.

Then they shut up and you find so many new friends.

P.S. Actualy happened But my wife is my wife would not recommend.

Sorry but I could not resist

[plachon]

My best Thai friend is an Isaaner, who is smart and educated. He got his Masters degree from a University in Japan and was one of the few people from Isaan amongst the mostly central Thais there. He told me he was stigmatised by his compatriots who made fun of him for being a backward Lao and lesser Thai than themselves. Yet, like with the South, central Thais would never think about giving up Isaan or the South and are quick to include them as "Thais" when it suits their colonial mindsets. At one time it was de rigeur for hi-so central Thais (many of whom are ethnically chinese) to have Isaan servants around the house, so it is understandable how the Thai soap opera stereotypes have come about putting Isaan people in the "dumb, country-bumpkin, scheming behind the nai's back" type and rarely, if ever, on an equal level financially, academically or socially with their central Thai counterparts.

Luckily, many Isaan people are very academically gifted and can compete intellectually, if not socially or financially in a biased society.

[bina]

my husband, korat born and raised, poor (shack, but family does own some rai), dark skinned, snub nosed; refuses to speak issaan thai (i am KORAT, I SPEAK KORAT THAI) , does speak issaan thai with the nong khai ubon and udon thani contingencies; he does associate being ISAAN = boorish/dull/stupid/uneducated/country/poor ... the last two are correct: he is uneducated and poor. definitely not stupid. definitely very counter snobby (along the lines of 'i am poor but honest, i dont suck up to anybody, dont belong to anybody, and all those city slickers are lying fakers.... sort of thing)...

he is also very aware of the 'looks' and 'attitudes' of embassy workers/officials et al that see him as 'issaan'.

i think it is hard to draw a specific line as uneducated/poor and lacking city wise skills and looks (good well taken care of clothing, decent hair cut, etc) probably says more about u then your city of birth.

there is a good comic sequence from that comedy group (cant remember their name but they also once did a rendition of hava nagila israeli folk song issaan style in bangkok it was on utube) that are issaan . they do a number on a guy from issaan that tries , in the big city, to impress some girl that is not very interested in her. in the end, the girl meets up with her friends and spouts out a lot of men bor, and pudai (issan thai) and the guy freaks out as she pulled one over on him.

they do several numbers making fun of themselves as issaan folk trying to be not isaan...

here in israel the thai workers band together by muubaan and changwat (korat, kon kaen, ubon etc) and anyone kmer (buriram etc) gets picked on more.

bina

[AYJAYDEE]

I have a gf from Isaan and I've been wondering if there really is 'racism' or bias against Isaaners in central Thailand (bkk) and if so how serious it is. Looking on the net, it appears like only in the last 50 years that Isaaners have stopped viewing themselves as Lao, if it even has stopped. Yet it also appears like linguistically and culturally Laos isn't that different from central Thailand in the first place. So I'm not clear what's going on. Obviously Isaan people are poorer, and supposedly they look different from bkk thais because they may have flatter/wider noses, and might have darker skin (but that could just be because they work in the sun, and the thais with prominent noses are actually half-chinese). But when it comes down to it, do Thais really see a difference? to my untrained eye they all look the same, except in Bkk I notice some more Chinese-looking Thais (whiter skin, prominent noses).

So will an elite social circle in Bkk ostracize an Isaaner? What if the Isaaner is rich? educated? Should an Isaan person feel ashamed to try to call themselves Thai, i.e. are they being disrespectful to their Lao heritage when they say they're Thai? I don't want my gf to try to imitate or suck up to Bkk Thais if she is actually distinct from them and they actually look down on her heritage- I want her to be proud of her heritage and not try to feign like she's Thai like the gov't apparently wants.

My last question- do educated or non-educated Bkk Thais serious view themselves as the masters of SE Asia like I've heard, or do the educated ones realize that's not true? I know for a fact that in many respects the Khmer 'civilized' SE Asia in the Middle Ages, despite the fact that everyone in SE Asia seems to hate them. Architecture, trade, and customs mostly came from the Khmer as I understood it. It appears as if 1000 years ago, the Thais and Lao (back then indistinguishable from eachother) came down into Khmer-controlled SE Asia from their snowy home in China (hence their lighter skin compared to the Khmer, and the steep roofs of Thai houses). The Lao broke off from the Thais and settled in the crappy eastern land. But everything seemed to mix and no ethnicity seemed more advanced than the other.

I wonder if at the time of colonization (1800's) the Thais AT THAT TIME viewed themselves as superior, or if all of SE Asia was equally respected. Maybe the only reason the modern Bkk Thais view themselves as superior is because, for unrelated circumstances, they happened to have a good trading area in Bangkok and happened to have good diplomacy with the West, NOT because of any inherently superior society.

I have no idea if I'm correct or not, all I know is that the people who are the LEAST Thai in this whole are equation are those half-Chinese that Thai media and culture seems to glorify as the beautiful leaders of SE Asia. I can tell you with near certainty that there's no way in hel_l the old kings of Siam looked anything like these chinese-looking baffoons on Thai tv. Go ahead and claim that Chinese culture and appearance is superior is to Thailand's, but don't try to claim that the Chinese traits ARE Thai!!

Of course the central thais consider themselves superior to the isaan people. why shud that bother you?

i can assure you, the isaan folks are every bit as bright as the city folk and better lookin to boot, so pity the city folk for their ignorance and tell your girlfriend how great she is every day.

[my friend I]

About 20 years ago, a world war 2 movie was dubbed into the local language, the allies spoke Thai, the germans E-sarn.