Do You Hear The Word Farang Used By Thais In A Derogatory Way?

[qualtrough]

As a fluent Thai (Issan)/Laotian speaking American I can assure you that the word "Farang" is generally not used in a derogative manner.

Then having given us your experience of how the word is 'generally' used - I take it you accept that at other times it is used in a derogatory manner.

Or are you saying that as a fluent Thai speaker you do not ever pick up on the use of the word Farang hitched with derogatory classifiers and/or with inflection of voice or perhaps stressing of pronounciation that carries derogatory sense?

He said it is generally not used in a derogatory manner, not never used that way. It appears here that you do accept that the term 'farang' itself is neutral, and must be coupled with derogatory words in order to be offensive. If that is the case, why do you have a problem with the use of farang as a term for white or European people? The offensive words in the UK that you allude to earlier were offensive terms in and of themselves. It wasn't necessary to add 'dirty' 'ugly' etc. to the N word to make it offensive. The N word alone was sufficient. Comparing farang to those types of terms persuades to me that you can in no way be fluent in Thai, at least using the normal definitions of 'fluent'.

Edited December 1, 2007 by qualtrough

[Jingthing]

We are being taught impermanence. Not such a bad lesson to learn for us Western farangutans.

[qualtrough]

I have been living in Thailand for almost a decade yet Scotland is my home.

Thailand is not your home unless you have permanent residency at the very minimum or Thai citizenship. Most of us are merely temporary visitors, living here from one stamp to the next, one extension to the next. And that is certainly true in the eyes of the authorities, and the law, and more importantly Thailand isn't your home in the eyes of the vast majority of Thais simply because you are not Thai, and never will be. What gives you the right to think otherwise?

Don't kid yourself that owning property and motor vehicles (which incidently I also own in Thailand) makes this your home.

Even having a family here doesn't make it so for the vast majority.

I know it's hard to accept, but dems the facts.

Back on topic, I find it hard to believe so many people haven't ever heard Thais use that word in a derogatory manner.

It is very clear Emperor Tud that you do not know what the word 'Home' means. Here is the Webster's definition:

Home

Main Entry:

1home Listen to the pronunciation of 1home

Pronunciation:

\ˈhōm\

Function:

noun

Etymology:

Middle English hom, from Old English hām village, home; akin to Old High German heim home, Lithuanian šeima family, servants, Sanskrit kṣema habitable, kṣeti he dwells, Greek ktizein to inhabit

Date:

before 12th century

1 a: one's place of residence : domicile b: house

Put simply, a home is the place where you hang your hat. It has nothing to do with your visa status, ability to work, or any of the other things you mentioned. If you have lived here 10 years and do not consider it 'home' that is your prerogative, but whether you like it or not Thailand is your home.

Pretend all you want if it pleases you. I outlined the facts as to why you cannot consider Thailand a permanent home when you are by definition merely a temporary resident.

Here's some more definitions of home for you...

the place or region where something is native or most common.

a person's native place or own country.

of, pertaining to, or connected with one's home or country

at home,

a. in one's own house or place of residence.

b. in one's own town or country.

So we can clearly see, using these definitions that while you are in your actual place of residence or domicile as in your house or condo, you may consider yourself 'at home', however you cannot by definition be 'at home' in Thailand, being not your own country nor native place.

If you could become a permanent resident, or gain citizenship, then you would be in a position to call Thailand home.

As it stands, the vast majority of us are just temporary visitors and home is far, far away, whether we have a home in Thailand or not.

Indeed, using your weak definition, I am at home now typing this. However Thailand is not my home by definition, nor do I consider it so.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Sorry you feel that way, but as I said earlier that is your prerogative. Fortunately permanent resident and perhaps even citizenship some day is an option for me. I have lived here on and off since 1980 and permanently since 1995. There is nothing in Thailand's history to suggest that farangs en masse are in any danger of being evicted. Some people need more security than others, but usually those people don't travel much. You are obviously an exception.

[kiakaha]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...sorry, did i just yawn ?

[qualtrough]

Sorry you feel that way, but as I said earlier that is your prerogative. Fortunately permanent resident and perhaps even citizenship some day is an option for me. I have lived here on and off since 1980 and permanently since 1995. There is nothing in Thailand's history to suggest that farangs en masse are in any danger of being evicted. Some people need more security than others, but usually those people don't travel much. You are obviously an exception.

Good luck with the permanent residency and citizenship. When you obtain them you'll then be in a position to truly be able to call Thailand your home. I neither want or need either.

I take issue with your statement that "Thailand's history to suggest that farangs en masse are in any danger of being evicted" when we just have to cast back to a year last October when the writing was on the wall for many people living in Thailand on tourist visas and 30 day entry stamps.

Make no mistake, the more of us that arrive here in Thailand looking to stay here long term the more difficult it will become. There may be no "en masse evictions", but there certainly will be a cap on the amount of Western foreigners allowed to stay here for long periods and continuing tightening of visa regulations to that effect.

There is also nothing to suggest Western foreigners will be welcomed to Thailand as immigrants or even permanent residents en masse or otherwise, ever!

Thailand is my home in the sense of home used by most people. I live here and have done so for 16 years. It is where my children were born and live, where my wife lives, and where I work. If you want to define home in a more restrictive sense you are free to do that, but it is not the definition of home that most people think of. Home is defined as the place where you live for most people. As for Thailand becoming more restrictive, those things come and go. The people you mention had no right to assume they could use those methods indefinitely as they clearly violated the spirit of the law, if not the letter. Many nations, perhaps most, have immigration laws far more restrictive than Thailand's, so I don't know what you are moaning about.

Edited December 1, 2007 by qualtrough

[rysbrnr]

As a fluent Thai (Issan)/Laotian speaking American I can assure you that the word "Farang" is generally not used in a derogative manner.

Then having given us your experience of how the word is 'generally' used - I take it you accept that at other times it is used in a derogatory manner.

Or are you saying that as a fluent Thai speaker you do not ever pick up on the use of the word Farang hitched with derogatory classifiers and/or with inflection of voice or perhaps stressing of pronounciation that carries derogatory sense?

I'm saying in most cases it not used as a negative word and yes I do pick up on it's use negatively when it's WITH derogatory classifiers and sometimes inflection of voice.

The word by itself is NOT derogative... If a Thai person were to use Farang in a negative way it would go like this.... "hey.... that asshol_e farang guy was yelling at me just because I can't understand english very well" Notice the word asshol_e was used in conjunction with Farang. If you hear someone attach Farang with a bad term such as dirty, cheap, bastard etc then I would say it's bad otherwise, Farang is just another word in the Thai vocabulary.

How else would a Thai person refer to a caucasian foreigner in Thaliand? There's got to be some word in their vocabulary that means that right?

If a non-English speaking Asian man lived in England and everywhere he went people called him "Asian" should he be offended?.... say he doesn't know what Asian means in English,...would it be safe for him to assume that Asian is derogative?.... To English speakers.... they'd say NO, "Asian" is not derogative. However if the someone says "ugly slant-eyed Asian" Then we'd all agree that "Asian" was used negatively.

So yes, Farang and Asian CAN be used in a derogative way... but in GENERAL everyday use, those words are not.

This topic really shouldn't be this large of an issue. Everyone is argueing over one word and it's use/meaning...which varies from person to person anyway.

[camerata]

This topic really shouldn't be this large of an issue. Everyone is argueing over one word and it's use/meaning...which varies from person to person anyway.

Interesting, isn't it? That one word never fails to get a large number of members ranting and raving about their dissatisfaction with Thais and Thailand. As I said before, we farang don't like to be labelled.

[camerata]

Who ever said that Thais aren't ever racist? WHO?

Not explicitly. But we now have 17 percent of people who say they have NEVER heard the word farang which means WHITE PEOPLE (racial term) used in a negative way. So that means to me they are saying Thais are not ever racist to white people at least in their personal experience. You are correct, I don't remember anyone saying Thais aren't racist towards other races such as blacks.

Farang is a racial-based term, as is Caucasion, Chinese and African. But using a racial-based term does not make one a racist. For the record, these are the definitions of racism from dictionary.com:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Incidentally, your poll asks "Do you hear the word farang used...? (present tense) not "Have you ever heard the word farang used...? This makes the "never" answer less definitive. In any case, if a Thai occasionally uses the word farang in a negative context, that does not make it a racial slur, which is what some people are implying it is. "You dirty, lying, scumbag, Caucasian!" doesn't turn "Caucasian" into a racial slur - it just reinforces the separation between the curser and the cursee.

[camerata]

There is also nothing to suggest Western foreigners will be welcomed to Thailand as immigrants or even permanent residents en masse or otherwise, ever!

My experience at Immigration when I obtained permanent residence was that I was welcomed.

[kmart]

Perception of what is "derogatory" or not, may stem from the listener's own opinion of self-worth or indeed state of mind. Some people, alienated from their normal surroundings and culture may become paranoid and suspicious of everything said in their presence that may or may not pertain to them at all...

I just asked my wife to try and say the word "farang" in a sneering, nasty derogatory way, that initially startled me, and then made me somewhat sexually aroused; and then,... led to the most passionate sex we've ever had!... I'm just a little concerned that her not saying "farang" in a derogatory manner during lovemaking may lead to future disappointment...?

[wamberal]

So meemiathai , do you seriously consider this sh*t normal ?!? C'mon guess one of the reasons HK & S'pore become a world class city .. is because the likes of you & me can live there, as integrate members of the society & not the laughing stock of the society ! Now it is one thing , when you hear some village bumpkin calling you names & makes round eyes, but would you be happy , if your collegues,friends in HK kept calling you Gweilo ... Let me guess THEY DO NOT !

When I lived and worked in Hong Kong my nickname was "fei-lo" - which means "fat man".

This nickname was widely used, even by senior managers in referring to me in front of quite junior staff.

Hong Kong and Singapore have become important cities primarily because of their locations. As incomes rise, so do education levels, and thus the veneer of western civilisation (good for business) is more apparent.

I have absolutely no problem in being referred to as "farang". On occasion it does seem a little bad mannered, to my western sensibilities. But, hey, when I am in Thailand I am not in the west. So if the Thais think it is okay, then it is okay.

Nobody will change Thailand, except the Thais. And if they want to call us "farang", guess what? They will, until the caribou come home. And we will still be "gweilo" in Hong Kong, and "ang mo" in Singapore.

[GuestHouse]

Interesting that Qualtrough skipped answering this point in his rant.......

Kudos indeed where the arguments made are made respectfully - but be aware - you may know the old adage 'Respect has to be earned' well we have a different take on that 'We start with respect and its up to the individual which way things go after that. I can assure you, he could not have made a better case against himself that the ranting, abusive and offensive language he chose.

[asiaworld]

Wow qualtrough, you've just confused me badly, as i was thinking abt reply to meemiathai's challenge So now ,if i invest in overseas properties, that puts my homes in number of different places,which are of no relevance with my visa status,nationality & may change,once i sell property?!? i am caucasian, with some mongoloid backgroud,meemiathai, and since i am multiple national & have confusing background i do not think, this is the right place for me to post my CV!

Funny thou, once you research a few of user's posts, it is somewhat easy to figure quite a lot of personal information about any user,a bit too much for a public forum like this, me thinks.. Now your situation really baffles me,meemiathai..

U live in HK, but spend most of your time on TV . Yeah, i know TV ;IS unique, in that NO other country requires a forum, so grand,just to help the poor/confused foreigners to figure out how to do simple things in this country..

i know you've got a bit of rural isaan, in your family. But, why don't u live here, if you soo fascinated, with LOS?! Its not like it'd cost u a fortune to move, just couple of hrs.&couple of thousands..

My postings here were Not of personal grudge,or frustration,but simply intent with though of people like memiathai & qualtrough in mind, who may have thai spouse & kids, stay here half their lifes, & still be,as foreign in the eyes of majority of thais, as any tourist, who just got off the airplane (& ur legal standing, won't be much better,unless u astute)

Edited December 2, 2007 by asiaworld

[torrenova]

Well it is certainly not used as the Japanese use gai-jin which can also have negative connotations. The word farang is often used in an abusive way, the same as some english may use the word "paki" to deride all who look like a certain race. That is how many of the Thais use the word farang.

Of course we will have here the detractors who see it only ever being used in a positive light. But then, some people think all is right with the world and there is no wrong and no evil. Perhaps they live by themselves.

Over 15 years, I hear it used in a negative fashion more by the lower class and uneducated in areas where there is a large western population. Move outside of these areas and whilst some may use it as a form of abuse or more often as a jealousy statement, the overall use is less negative.

To defend the position that it is purely a word for Thais to describe people from the west is naive and insulting to those who do come from there.

[asiaworld]

Spot on torrenova,but actually in japanese gaijin(waiguoren/outcountry) IS the correct & mainstream word for Foreigner, it used with anyone korean/chinese etc. nothing wrong with it @ all... Now F....g is pure/simple slang word..

Now if anyone points me its use in any official writings.... >>it's a challenge..

How young can you be qualtrough; watch any older movies, Nigger was used upto 70s in daily speach, i just watched a movie frmo 60s recently .. People evolve you see.. sometimes faster,sometimes not .

[qualtrough]

Interesting that Qualtrough skipped answering this point in his rant.......

Kudos indeed where the arguments made are made respectfully - but be aware - you may know the old adage 'Respect has to be earned' well we have a different take on that 'We start with respect and its up to the individual which way things go after that. I can assure you, he could not have made a better case against himself that the ranting, abusive and offensive language he chose.

I find it interesting that you characterize my post that addressed the points you raised without indulging in argument ad hominem as a 'rant'. One popular definition of rant is 'a loud bombastic declamation expressed with strong emotion.' I see nothing in my reply to your post that fits that bill. Your characterizing that reply as a rant now makes me wonder how much of that employees disagreement with you could fairly be described as a rant. Is anyone disagreeing with you 'ranting.?

Now, back to your point. I overlooked that passage as I addressed the bulk of the points you raised, mea culpa. What I find curious is that you have now changed your description of the situation considerably (coincidently in your favor I am sure) by stating that this person used 'abusive and offensive' language. Here is what you originally wrote when describing that situation:

The term 'Farang' was one that expatriates (and EuroThais) stated they objected to at which point we had to suffer a tyrade [sic] from a Thai member of staff complaining 'This is Thailand you don't tell Thai people how to speak.... if we want to use 'Farang' etc etc'.

The vitriol he poured out was evidence enough of why many expats and all the EuroThais objected the term and there after I never heard the term openly used in the office again.

My original reply to this was that I could fully understand the anger of someone upset that people were telling him how he should use his own language. I stand by that opinion. I would not defend offensive and abusive language, but you chose not to make that as clear in your previous post.

Although I don't condone the way he expressed his displeasure, I fully understand his anger. Several people more knowledgeable in Thai than either you or myself, including a native speaker, have stated that farang is NOT an offensive term, and that to be offensive it must be coupled with offensive or derogatory words or spoken in such a way as to make the desire to offend clear. Given that, it is patronizing and presumptuous in the extreme to be giving lectures to Thais on how to use their own language. We have enough of a problem in the West now with the bowdlerization and dumbing down of language in an effort to render everything politically correct. Could we not leave the Thais alone, particularly as we are guests in their country?

I will leave it to others here to surmise why you failed to address my other responses to your previous post.

Edited December 2, 2007 by qualtrough

[madjbs]

Nigger was used upto 70s in daily speach,

It was used in daily speech but it was still said as a derogatory way to refer to black people. It always was racist but in those days racism against black people was acceptable so that’s why you can here it in old movies etc.. The word "negro" used to be acceptable and not a racist word however.

[qualtrough]

Spot on torrenova,but actually in japanese gaijin(waiguoren/outcountry) IS the correct & mainstream word for Foreigner, it used with anyone korean/chinese etc. nothing wrong with it @ all... Now F....g is pure/simple slang word..

Now if anyone points me its use in any official writings.... >>it's a challenge..

How young can you be qualtrough; watch any older movies, Nigger was used upto 70s in daily speach, i just watched a movie frmo 60s recently .. People evolve you see.. sometimes faster,sometimes not .

Do you speak Thai fluently? I didn't think so. So how are you to know that farang by itself is offensive? As others with considerably more knowledge of the language have pointed out, the term by itself is neutral and not an offensive term used to describe westerners. It can indeed be made offensive by combining with offensive words, but so what? Any word can. What exactly is your point then?? In the US nigger was considered offensive in most parts of the US for more than 100 years, and the word itself was offensive. It didn't need to be coupled with anything in order to be an insult. Calling something farang food, farang style, or someone a farang is not intended to offend, and indeed would only offend the type of farang that wants to be offended by something. I would suggest that those offended by the word are too sensitive to live in Thailand, much less Asia, and would be better off staying at home where they can hear only words that appeal to them.

[Jingthing]

Any word can.

Q, this is not true.

Take a word like tree. Yes, you could say, those trees are taking all our good jobs, but a tree is not a RACIAL group of HUMAN BEINGS. You continue to deny that this kind of difference is important. I find that, Thai fluency or not, very intellectually dishonest.

At the very least, maybe you can respond to this point, the DIFFERENCE between a RACIAL WORD about people and just ANY word and why you think all words are the same with equal amounts of POWER. You may be fluent in Thai but you have failed to learn the immense power of WORDS in all societies, and that all words are not equal. I don't think you have ever responded to this challenge even though you have asserted that all words are the same many, many times.

Farang may be (I agree that it is) a neutral word in itself, but it is most certainly not just ANY word.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[asiaworld]

Do you speak Thai fluently? I didn't think so. So how are you to know that farang by itself is offensive? As others with considerably more knowledge of the language have pointed out, the term by itself is neutral and not an offensive term used to describe westerners. It can indeed be made offensive by combining with offensive words, but so what? Any word can. What exactly is your point then?? In the US nigger was considered offensive in most parts of the US for more than 100 years, and the word itself was offensive. It didn't need to be coupled with anything in order to be an insult. Calling something farang food, farang style, or someone a farang is not intended to offend, and indeed would only offend the type of farang that wants to be offended by something. I would suggest that those offended by the word are too sensitive to live in Thailand, much less Asia, and would be better off staying at home where they can hear only words that appeal to them.

Hmm.. you have a funny way of proving your point, now it's my thai knowledge you're after.. well to answer your older question, english IS my native/adopted language . Have you heard of native proficiency . To explain, i didn't know any english in the first 8 years of my life ..And i know at least 5 more languages on similar level.. Anyways i don't think, you have good chance of winning the language contest .

Also your previous point, that you can't tell the native speaker, what to say is NOT good.. > Does it mean, i can insult anyone i like, with any words i like & non native speakers can't say anything against it ?!? Are U 4 REAL ?!?

[qualtrough]

Any word can.

Q, this is not true.

Take a word like tree. Yes, you could say, those trees are taking all our good jobs, but a tree is not a RACIAL group of HUMAN BEINGS. You continue to deny that this kind of difference is important. I find that, Thai fluency or not, very intellectually dishonest.

You are being silly. The word itself, as you admit, is neutral. You have offered no convincing reason why the word should be discarded simply because it can be coupled with other words in order to be offensive. You surely must realize that any word used to replace farang in Thai can and will be coupled with offensive words? So what then would be the point of discarding one inoffensive word for another? Fckuing German, <deleted> Westerner, Fckuing white man, all are just as offensive. What do you possibly think you could gain from banishing the word farang? What you and others are arguing about is Thai behavior, not the word farang. If you want to change Thai behavior, good luck, but you are wasting your time obsessing with the word farang. Complain about Thais all you want, but farang is not the problem.

P.S. I hope someone with a background in linguistics is following this thread. It would make a good case study of the ignorance many here have about language in general. The idea that concepts that hold for one language are readily comparable and applicable to another language is ludicrous.

Edited December 2, 2007 by qualtrough

[Jingthing]

Q, why do you lie?

I have NEVER ONCE advocated banishing the word FARANG!

I like the word. I use it. I agree it is neutral in itself. I find it very useful and appropriate in many situations. I do think if people are talking about more specific groups or individuals, they should do so, but you are correct, you can't regulate poor usage.

I am just calling you out on your assertion that a racial word is the same as JUST ANY WORD, which is obviously a false assertion.

Yes, the issues are around the USE of the word, sure, so what? Doesn't make the word farang the same as the word tree.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[qualtrough]

Do you speak Thai fluently? I didn't think so. So how are you to know that farang by itself is offensive? As others with considerably more knowledge of the language have pointed out, the term by itself is neutral and not an offensive term used to describe westerners. It can indeed be made offensive by combining with offensive words, but so what? Any word can. What exactly is your point then?? In the US nigger was considered offensive in most parts of the US for more than 100 years, and the word itself was offensive. It didn't need to be coupled with anything in order to be an insult. Calling something farang food, farang style, or someone a farang is not intended to offend, and indeed would only offend the type of farang that wants to be offended by something. I would suggest that those offended by the word are too sensitive to live in Thailand, much less Asia, and would be better off staying at home where they can hear only words that appeal to them.

Hmm.. you have a funny way of proving your point, now it's my thai knowledge you're after.. well to answer your older question, english IS my native/adopted language . Have you heard of native proficiency . To explain, i didn't know any english in the first 8 years of my life ..And i know at least 5 more languages on similar level.. Anyways i don't think, you have good chance of winning the language contest .

Also your previous point, that you can't tell the native speaker, what to say is NOT good.. > Does it mean, i can insult anyone i like, with any words i like & non native speakers can't say anything against it ?!? Are U 4 REAL ?!?

You danced around the question. If you are fluent or reasonably proficient in Thai just send me a PM in Thai. That will settle the issue quite easily.

[asiaworld]

attention fluent thai speakers !>> what comes to your mind, when you hear the thai hit song 'Farang keenok' ?!?!?

is it about the tasty fruits , thai farmers grow... or any other thought may cross your mind

honest answers pliiiiiiiiiiiiz

[qualtrough]

Q, why do you lie?

I have NEVER ONCE advocated banishing the word FARANG!

I like the word. I use it. I agree it is neutral in itself.

I am just calling you out on your assertion that a racial word is the same as JUST ANY WORD, which is obviously a false assertion.

Yes, the issues are around the USE of the word, sure, so what? Doesn't make the word farang the same as the word tree.

Jingthing, as others have pointed out here, your rationales have shifted as this thread progresses. Frankly, it is not clear to me exactly what point you are trying to make, other than that you want to win every argument. You know nothing of Thai and even less of linguistics so I don't know how you are qualified to make the sweeping judgments about farang that you make.

[Jingthing]

Q: thanks again for NOT responding to my point. I haven't shifted at all. I am critical of the usage of the word by Thais, why do they call me individually a farang if they know I am an American? and yes many Thais are racist against many racial groups including farang and to deny that is to put your head in the sand, but I have not once favored trying to change Thai behavior. Observing and being critical is not the same thing as a crusade of change, which I don't think we have any power to do so anyway in Thailand, where as I said before WE DON'T REALLY MATTER.

BTW, you are fluent in Thai, GIVE IT A REST. We all know that now.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[qualtrough]

attention fluent thai speakers !>> what comes to your mind, when you hear the thai hit song 'Farang keenok' ?!?!?

is it about the tasty fruits , thai farmers grow... or any other thought may cross your mind

honest answers pliiiiiiiiiiiiz

It is a tongue in cheek but derogatory usage playing on the fact that farang keenok is both a vegetable and a description for a tightwad farang. It has no bearing on whether or not farang is offensive. Note that farang must be modifed by the adjective keenok in order to provide any offensive effect. If the song was titled Farang it would just be about farangs, or a piece of fruit. So what point are you trying to make? I don't see anyone arguing here that farang can not be coupled with other words in order to make it offensive. But that is true of any word, so what is the issue?

[qualtrough]

Jingthing, in case you wondered. I bought some more peanuts. Enjoy

[Jingthing]

I don't see anyone arguing here that farang can not be coupled with other words in order to make it offensive. But that is true of any word, so what is the issue?

There he goes again. Amazing!

Edited December 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Jingthing, in case you wondered. I bought some more peanuts. Enjoy

You could have fooled me. You don't even directly respond to very pointed challenges. What credibility does that give you? Just fall back on your fluency and personal insults. You need to get better peanuts.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Jingthing