Anti-corruption Coup

[thaigene2]

Well - since the coup was about getting rid of a 'corrupt' populist leader and his party, why isn't anti-corruption a main policy issue of the political parties in the run up to the election?

I read the two English-lang papers each day, and I haven't yet seen a major news report on any of the parties taking on political/civil service corruption as a campaign issue.

I'm sure I've missed something, and hope you can put me right on this. But are the Democrats and others on the record in their "Manifestos" about counter-corruption in the civil service or politics (come on, don't laugh..seriously), or any other parties for that matter?

I mean, shouldn;t this be THE BIG ISSUE since that was the reason for the coup???

[tijnebijn]

You are kidding right ?

[soundman]

The anti corruption parties don't have enough money to get anybody to vote for them.

[chanchao]

Well - since the coup was about getting rid of a 'corrupt' populist leader and his party, why isn't anti-corruption a main policy issue of the political parties in the run up to the election?

I read the two English-lang papers each day, and I haven't yet seen a major news report on any of the parties taking on political/civil service corruption as a campaign issue.

I'm sure I've missed something, and hope you can put me right on this. But are the Democrats and others on the record in their "Manifestos" about counter-corruption in the civil service or politics (come on, don't laugh..seriously), or any other parties for that matter?

I mean, shouldn;t this be THE BIG ISSUE since that was the reason for the coup???

Yup. You'd think so.

But then the coup of course wasn't about corruption at all.

Google "A coup for the Rich", and read the PDF.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[londonthai]

political program for the political parties is no more than ticket to power - once there they don't care about their promises and electorate. Soon they would become corrupt themselves - that's the logic of the system.

[jumnien]

Corrupt is just another word for human. Better get used to it.

[macleod101]

i met Thaksins son a while ago in London, he swears that it's only a minor tax issue, and nothing 'corrupt'.

I don't think being corrupt was the real issue behind the coup either..

[sriracha john]

i met Thaksins son a while ago in London, he swears that it's only a minor tax issue, and nothing 'corrupt'.

Only a multi-multi-baht billionaire would classify 12 billion baht in back taxes as "minor"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=91769

Edited December 3, 2007 by sriracha john

[chanchao]

It's all relative, SJ.

I submit greater evils have been done to Thailand this year than tax issues of any amount.

[Sakeopete]

Thais are not stupid they know the score and will vote for the highest bidder because at the end of the election thats the only thing they will really gain. Corruption will be back to normal and the politicians will forget about them untill near next elections.

[Stephen Cleary]

I just recently translated two party Manifestos (The Machima Party one was very detailed....with a lotta complete nonsense)

Both manifestos did declare that they would crackdown on corruption, but what was interesting, in doing so, they would raise the salaries of all civil servants, govt officials, district heads, army and police etc....

It seems therefore, that according to them, the roots of corruption lies in low salaries. That for me personally, is pretty pathetic. Just another stunt to win the hearts and minds of the most influential to secure votes.

[thaigene2]

I just recently translated two party Manifestos (The Machima Party one was very detailed....with a lotta complete nonsense)

Both manifestos did declare that they would crackdown on corruption, but what was interesting, in doing so, they would raise the salaries of all civil servants, govt officials, district heads, army and police etc....

It seems therefore, that according to them, the roots of corruption lies in low salaries. That for me personally, is pretty pathetic. Just another stunt to win the hearts and minds of the most influential to secure votes.

Thanks Stephen Cleary,

Well at least one party showed some interest in the 'supposed' primary reasons for the coup.

When I think back - only a little more than a year ago really - all the yellow-T-shirts of the PAD people rallying against corrupted politicians - and few doubted Thaksin's defense against that (but again supposedly 'the real' supporters of democracy - "PAD" - or maybe it meant people 'against' democracy? Does anyone really know any longer?)

So since "corruption" was the big thing - WHERE IS THAT DEBATE NOW?

I'm sure all the hi-so Nation and Bangkok Post editors will step forward upon reading this right? (by the way, why do all their names start with 'na' or have a hyphon? - just wonderin..)

[macleod101]

i met Thaksins son a while ago in London, he swears that it's only a minor tax issue, and nothing 'corrupt'.

Only a multi-multi-baht billionaire would classify 12 billion baht in back taxes as "minor"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=91769

i understand 12b is a lot, but 12b to him is like £50 to me... he's not actually legally obliged to pay these taxes as he was out of the country for exaclty that, taxc reasons..

[Chloe82]

i met Thaksins son a while ago in London, he swears that it's only a minor tax issue, and nothing 'corrupt'.

Only a multi-multi-baht billionaire would classify 12 billion baht in back taxes as "minor"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=91769

i understand 12b is a lot, but 12b to him is like £50 to me... he's not actually legally obliged to pay these taxes as he was out of the country for exaclty that, taxc reasons..

Thaksin and his government were guilty of corruption, dictatorship, demagogy, treason, having conflicts of interest, acting undiplomatically, tax evasion, the use of legal loopholes and hostility towards a free press, lèse-majesté, selling domestic assets to international investors, and religious desecration to name a few.

Human Rights Watch described Thaksin as 'a human rights abuser of the worst kind'.

Good Riddance To Bad Rubbish.

Chloe.

[Tony Clifton]

Thaksin's son saying it is a minor issue makes perfect sense.

It's a minor issue to him as it wasn't his company or money.

[Ricardo]

I just recently translated two party Manifestos (The Machima Party one was very detailed....with a lotta complete nonsense)

Both manifestos did declare that they would crackdown on corruption, but what was interesting, in doing so, they would raise the salaries of all civil servants, govt officials, district heads, army and police etc....

It seems therefore, that according to them, the roots of corruption lies in low salaries. That for me personally, is pretty pathetic. Just another stunt to win the hearts and minds of the most influential to secure votes.

Part of the arguement in defence of having corruption has always been that, were it not for 'tea-money', you'd have to pay people properly to do their jobs, and that would mean taxes going up. So No, I find this believeable, and not just a stunt.

Whether it would work, and help reduce corruption, is of course another matter.

[Plus]

Civil servants should be paid on par with private sector employees of a similar status. Thai bureaucracy at the lower levels is not particularly corrupt, most do their jobs honestly, it's when the real money gets involved there are all sorts of obstacles.

Corruption in the civil service wasn't the issue, btw, it's peanuts.

Thaksin's corruption was far more dangerous and a lot more sophisticated than some guy demanding a kickback - he issued illegal laws, started illegal businesses and ORDERED not to collect taxes.

[slapout]

If increasing salaries would stop or even slow down corruption, how do you explain the mega millioniare politicans who were still very active or trying to get back into positions of authority in Thailand. If you believe some of the figures which have been thrown around about the amount of money involved in corruption I dont think you could raise salaries high enough to fill the trough from which the pigs are feeding. Report,charge,trial, and prison terms for those found guilty. The appeal for conviction of crimes here is longer that death conviction appeals in many countries. Its a very suspect judicial system from start to finish, as it presently operates.

[Briggsy]

Because of 1) the voting habits of most of the population 2) the patron-client structure of society 3) the way the legislation concerning registering a party and candidates is framed and 4) the huge amounts of money involved, there is no real anti-corruption party. If one were to emerge as a serious contender, the leaders would be in serious danger.

It is far more likely to see some senior civil servants that want to tackle corruption.

[macleod101]

so he's been proven guilty? I thought they had just proven the loop hole that he found.. didn't know they had anything more on him.. i know thai media is very different too ferang media on this subject.. i will hit his son next time i see him, if ya prove to me that he did all those things...

oh you can find him in Thai pub/club/restaurant. gloucester road, london on a friday night

[Tony Clifton]

so he's been proven guilty? I thought they had just proven the loop hole that he found.. didn't know they had anything more on him.. i know thai media is very different too ferang media on this subject.. i will hit his son next time i see him, if ya prove to me that he did all those things...

oh you can find him in Thai pub/club/restaurant. gloucester road, london on a friday night

Ask him about education in Thailand.

Did he attend university?

Was the entrance exam difficult?

He was caught cheating.

What can a boy do? It's a common family gene!

[sriracha john]

i met Thaksins son a while ago in London, he swears that it's only a minor tax issue, and nothing 'corrupt'.

Only a multi-multi-baht billionaire would classify 12 billion baht in back taxes as "minor"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=91769

It's all relative, SJ.

I submit greater evils have been done to Thailand this year than tax issues of any amount.

Indeed, it is relative that.... we're just talking about the son here. His Dad was infinitely worse.

Edited December 4, 2007 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

I'm sure all the hi-so Nation and Bangkok Post editors will step forward upon reading this right? (by the way, why do all their names start with 'na' or have a hyphon? - just wonderin..)

Please clarify what you implying.

[John K]

In reply to the Op’s initial post:

all the changes that need to be made just can’t all be done at once. It is like some surgeries that are performed in steps over a period of time. If the entire procedure was done at the same time, the patient may die from overwhelming the bodies ability to recover.

In this case corruption is so intertwined in the economy the country could collapse into anarchy. However the new constitution is a very good first step allowing new veins to grow before continuing the process.

[chanchao]

However the new constitution is a very good first step allowing new veins to grow before continuing the process.

John, the new constitution has been drawn up by ex militrary cronies and has in it that half the Senate is APPOINTED, not elected.

This in stark contrast to the "People's Constitution of 1997" that was torn up. This constitution is the first (and only) one written under democratic circumstances. That constitution was excellent; for sure some lower level regulations were in need of maintenance to prevent electoral stalemates, such as the one committed by the Democrats in the Southern provinces that effectively blocked elections to proceed, even though there was a VERY clear win by a third successive landslide.

Anyway, search Wikipedia for a few of those words, it has quite a few things in there that can't be written here.

Edited December 4, 2007 by chanchao

[thaigene2]

However the new constitution is a very good first step allowing new veins to grow before continuing the process.

John, the new constitution has been drawn up by ex militrary cronies and has in it that half the Senate is APPOINTED, not elected.

This in stark contrast to the "People's Constitution of 1997" that was torn up. This constitution is the first (and only) one written under democratic circumstances. That constitution was excellent; for sure some lower level regulations were in need of maintenance to prevent electoral stalemates, such as the one committed by the Democrats in the Southern provinces that effectively blocked elections to proceed, even though there was a VERY clear win by a third successive landslide.

Anyway, search Wikipedia for a few of those words, it has quite a few things in there that can't be written here.

Yes, I mean really John, are you saying that all those civil servants in their special t-shirts and driving Benz's SHOULDN'T be confonted...cause God forbid...it might cause 'anarchy'? What do you call a Coup d'Etat against a majority-elected Government - and a military that has left the door open to another one if another populist party (read Benz-threatening party) comes to power again?

At some point people - even uneducated people will see through this - it's just a matter of time. It would be better to reign in the nonesense now than later IMHO. And start a process that includes everyone - a real inclusion not the rubbish that's spouted by the upper-middle-class parties to 'unite.' Poor people know that's a joke..and it doesn't matter what level of education they have. The clock is ticking - better to sort it now than later..and while there is still a steady hand at the main rudder..

[chanchao]

Hear hear. Completely agree.

[sriracha john]

I'm sure all the hi-so Nation and Bangkok Post editors will step forward upon reading this right? (by the way, why do all their names start with 'na' or have a hyphon? - just wonderin..)

Please clarify what you implying.

*bump*

[chanchao]

Come on, it's not that hard. He feels The Nation and Bangkok Post are touting the Middle Class / "Democrat" Party line.

And so do I. Especially The Nation.

[thaigene2]

Come on, it's not that hard. He feels The Nation and Bangkok Post are touting the Middle Class / "Democrat" Party line.

And so do I. Especially The Nation.

Yes I'm suggesting exactly that - and I agree The Nation is the most obvious (shame cause otherwise it's a good rag).

The upper classes and upper middle classes are petrified. You can almost feel it. And when these priviledged people and their unjustifiably rich paws and grand-paws who made their money through (hmm...we can't actually say that or go down that road can we?).. realise they may be in for a re-run of the last political-power session, then it looking very scary for all. Why? Cause they won't let it happen..This is where the 'conciliation' is supposed to happen...problem is, they expect the populist-poor supporters to do all the "conciliation' (you know, "Our general-daddy's won this fight - so now you must prostrate! and we're off to Greyhound for dinner -- Jaew!!!")

Anyway - look, this is all an academic post I'll admit - cause just like the Thai-vs-English media here - the Thai media never reports a word of this kind of debate..so it's harmless to the hi-so's. And of course they know that.

Edited December 6, 2007 by thaigene2