Second Class Citizens

[ade100]

I spend half my time in Singapore where my work is based but have a second home on Phuket. As an educated professional, it was very easy for me to get a Work Permit for Singapore. I could become a Permanent Resident or even a Singapore Citizen at any time. I am treated as an equal by the host society and my skills are recognised and in demand.

Contrast this with Thailand. Work Permits and Visas are not easy to come by. It is extremely difficult to become a Thai citizen even if married to a Thai. Consequently most of us will never be able to vote or to own land here. Even setting up a business is extremely difficult as a non-Thai. Jobs adverts often specify “Thai Nationality” and our skills are generally not welcome or recognised. Ex-Pats also complain about having to pay much higher prices than the locals do for pretty much everything.

In many countries immigrants have fought for their rights to be treated equally and to enjoy citizenship. Examples such as the African-Americans, the Afro-Caribbeans in the UK and the Maghrebians in France come to mind.

So why do we just accept second class citizen status? Why don’t we stand up for our rights? If Asians can hold EU passports and participate in the life and the economy of the EU countries, why do we stay as outsiders in Thailand?

Note this is not a thread about Thailand’s inequalities. It is asking why the international people here don’t do more to oppose it.

Looking forward to your intelligent, informed, charming and witty replies. Please try to resist replies in the “if you don’t like it, you can F off” genre as I am already aware of this option.

Lastly, apologies to the veterans who have discussed this before. I did do a search and found little on the topic.

[Mobi]

I spend half my time in Singapore where my work is based but have a second home on Phuket. As an educated professional, it was very easy for me to get a Work Permit for Singapore. I could become a Permanent Resident or even a Singapore Citizen at any time. I am treated as an equal by the host society and my skills are recognised and in demand.

Contrast this with Thailand. Work Permits and Visas are not easy to come by. It is extremely difficult to become a Thai citizen even if married to a Thai. Consequently most of us will never be able to vote or to own land here. Even setting up a business is extremely difficult as a non-Thai. Jobs adverts often specify "Thai Nationality" and our skills are generally not welcome or recognised. Ex-Pats also complain about having to pay much higher prices than the locals do for pretty much everything.

In many countries immigrants have fought for their rights to be treated equally and to enjoy citizenship. Examples such as the African-Americans, the Afro-Caribbeans in the UK and the Maghrebians in France come to mind.

So why do we just accept second class citizen status? Why don't we stand up for our rights? If Asians can hold EU passports and participate in the life and the economy of the EU countries, why do we stay as outsiders in Thailand?

Note this is not a thread about Thailand's inequalities. It is asking why the international people here don't do more to oppose it.

Looking forward to your intelligent, informed, charming and witty replies. Please try to resist replies in the "if you don't like it, you can F off" genre as I am already aware of this option.

Lastly, apologies to the veterans who have discussed this before. I did do a search and found little on the topic.

In a world where a gentle middle aged British teacher can be summarily thrown in jail, and have crowds whipped up demanding her execution for the crime of allowing some young students to call their teddy bear Mohammed, and the international community is more or less impotent to do anything about it, do you seriously imagine that any international body could care two hoots if a bunch of foreigners in Thailand find it impossible to get Thai citizenship, or obtain work permits?

The issue you have enumerated is low low on the scale of international or bilateral issues, that it doesn't even register in any discussion paper.

I'm sorry, but that's the way the world is, and any attempts to by outside bodies to change things in Thailand would probably result in even more draconian, anti foreigner rules.

The Thais don't care - and neither does anybody else.

[meom]

I don't think Thailand really has any immigrants in the same sense as the US, UK or France except maybe for the Burmese and some people from other surrounding countries that move to Thailand for work in order to make a better life for themselves.

People from US, UK etc move here because it's cheap and not because they can't find a job back home.

Maybe in the distant future when LOS is more wealthy than the US etc then we can immigrate here, fill the shortage in labor and maybe our off spring will be entitled to citizenship.

[soundman]

Allthough many people will debate my point of view, perception is everything. If you perceive yourself as a second class citizen (I use that term loosely) then that is what you are.

Thai soceity is class based & although subtely, very rigidly adhered too.

Being a new "citizen" in Thai soceity, one does have a little leeway when one starts out as to how others perceive you. Act whatever class level you perceive yourself initially & the label will stick. Obviously this translates to the company you keep.

Thai's, even hiso, have to jump through many hoops everyday to get from one side of the beureaucratic jungle to the other. Just because farang have a few extra hurdles to clear doesn't make one a "second class citizen".

If you portray yourself as a "second class citizen" barely making ends meet & keeping a social network of "lower class" Thai's - then that will be the group you are bundled in with even if you have 30mil Baht in the bank. & vice versa.....

Soundman.

[onnut]

A second Class Citizen? I dont think I am a second class citizen. I have a better standard of living here then I would back at home. and I can have a hel_l of a lot more fun living in Thailand then I could living in Singapore. I have lived there so can comment, my brother loves it there and I cant see why.

yeah, I have to pay more than the locals for certain things, but I do not very often go trecking in the national parks, so thats ok.

I love living in Thailand even if nearly everyday I am pisse-d off with something. I have lived in 5 countries and this one is the best.

people moan about corruption, but love it when they get to bribe a traffic cop. you have to take the good with the bad. most of the time its good.

Yeah, the Thais probably do hate us, I think most of them do anyway, but they love having Farang friends. and most of them treat us nice anyway.

Just imagine being an immigrant in the UK. ok the Government welcomes you but the population dont. its the other way round here.

Im staying........

Bye Bye

[OlRedEyes]

Quite correct, the Thais don't care nor does anyone else. Including most expats. Do you really want to be a citizen of a country that seems to be heading backwards at a fair clip? If I had small children I certainly would not want to raise and try to educate them here.

Unfortunately Thailand's immigration policies are an excellent formula for stagnation. Sad really, but then, it is what it is.

[mikethevigoman]

I spend half my time in Singapore where my work is based but have a second home on Phuket. As an educated professional, it was very easy for me to get a Work Permit for Singapore. I could become a Permanent Resident or even a Singapore Citizen at any time. I am treated as an equal by the host society and my skills are recognised and in demand.

Contrast this with Thailand. Work Permits and Visas are not easy to come by. It is extremely difficult to become a Thai citizen even if married to a Thai. Consequently most of us will never be able to vote or to own land here. Even setting up a business is extremely difficult as a non-Thai. Jobs adverts often specify "Thai Nationality" and our skills are generally not welcome or recognised. Ex-Pats also complain about having to pay much higher prices than the locals do for pretty much everything.

In many countries immigrants have fought for their rights to be treated equally and to enjoy citizenship. Examples such as the African-Americans, the Afro-Caribbeans in the UK and the Maghrebians in France come to mind.

So why do we just accept second class citizen status? Why don't we stand up for our rights? If Asians can hold EU passports and participate in the life and the economy of the EU countries, why do we stay as outsiders in Thailand?

Note this is not a thread about Thailand's inequalities. It is asking why the international people here don't do more to oppose it.

Looking forward to your intelligent, informed, charming and witty replies. Please try to resist replies in the "if you don't like it, you can F off" genre as I am already aware of this option.

Lastly, apologies to the veterans who have discussed this before. I did do a search and found little on the topic.

Funny, i was driving in pattaya today and saw all the people ready for xmas and new year etc, not a care in the world and like me when i came to visit first obvlious to the real thailand,. when i came first rightly or wrongly i felt superior,.plenty of money, quite well educated ( by thai standrds ! ) now i feel inferior,.Its as if ill never be fully accepted here even though i live here with my thai wife and daughter, there is always the feeling of not really being welcome and belonging,.A thai in the uk can relax in the thought of being secure and if an immigrant can remain and buy land etc,.not the same can be said of thailand,.its all very one sided,.i do love the country and most of the people i have met have been very nice,.but in the back of my mind is where will they bury me ?,..is this my home ?,.who knows

[Mobi]

....but in the back of my mind is where will they bury me ?,..is this my home ?,.who knows

It's only your home for as long as they agree to extend your visa for another 12 months - or even less in some cases.

Until, that is, they make up new rules and say: "you've got 24 hours to leave the country"

So keep a bag packed, and your money offshore.

[MikeRay]

As long one doesn´t get beaten up because one is white , it´s a better place to live as a foreigner than many places in Europe are.Xenophobia comes along with violence in many countries. Haven´t heard about that in Thailand yet.

[GuestHouse]

Second Class Citizens, Why do we put up with it?

You can't be a Second Class Citizen of Thailand if you are not in the first place a Citizen.

[onnut]

As long one doesn´t get beaten up because one is white , it´s a better place to live as a foreigner than many places in Europe are.Xenophobia comes along with violence in many countries. Haven´t heard about that in Thailand yet.

Very True,

most of the falang that get a kickin over here deserve it for being a Pratt.

I have never had a problem with locals. once even a little old Thai lady let me go first in the check out at tops.

its just the Government that does not want us here.

[dukkha]

If ya cant stand the heat get outta the kitchen I was once told..not meaning to be too glib..

Comparisons are odious was once also told to me...good luck with whatever you choose.. Dukkha

[Mobi]

Second Class Citizens, Why do we put up with it?

You can't be a Second Class Citizen of Thailand if you are not in the first place a Citizen.

Exactly.

[nidge]

Thai's, even hiso, have to jump through many hoops everyday to get from one side of the beureaucratic jungle to the other. Just because farang have a few extra hurdles to clear doesn't make one a "second class citizen".

This is just how i see it. The only main difference is Thais do not have to obtain a visa to stay here. Bureaucracy is difficult for everyone but it always seems worse for you because it's personal. Then you complain to fellow farangs and they have the same experiences. suddenly it feels like its only farangs have the problems and everyone else has it easy.

I don't feel second class, i'm not the same as the Thai people i mix with but i certainly don't feel as if i am in a different class as them.

[paulsmithson]

My Thai wife lived with me in the Uk for over twenty years. She was always to proud to be Thai to want a British passport -bui she did have indefinite leave to remain and she could own land.

We returmned to live permanently(?????????) in Thailand this year.

The house here is not in joint names ---it is in her name only !

I couild afford and would like a more expensive house- my /her house is worth 2m baht.!

Most of my money is offshore- how does this benefit the Thai?

My life is run one year at a time Ie visa to visa

Most of my Thai friends do not know how uncaring their law is.

I could be sent home simply because the immigration officer dealing with my visa does not like my aftershave!!!!

My wife says if this every haapens we shall loook at at adjacent countries.

I love my wife and want her to enjoy her life here in her native country.

There should be humanitarian reasons for immigration too.

[Manchester]

My Thai wife lived with me in the Uk for over twenty years. She was always to proud to be Thai to want a British passport -bui she did have indefinite leave to remain and she could own land.

We returmned to live permanently(?????????) in Thailand this year.

The house here is not in joint names ---it is in her name only !

I couild afford and would like a more expensive house- my /her house is worth 2m baht.!

Most of my money is offshore- how does this benefit the Thai?

My life is run one year at a time Ie visa to visa

Most of my Thai friends do not know how uncaring their law is.

I could be sent home simply because the immigration officer dealing with my visa does not like my aftershave!!!!

My wife says if this every haapens we shall loook at at adjacent countries.

I love my wife and want her to enjoy her life here in her native country.

There should be humanitarian reasons for immigration too.

Why bother complaining? You think you will get somewhere?

What applies in the UK , USA etc does not apply in Thailand.

If you cannot accept that.............then sorry but you should return back to the UK.

IMHO

[Jingthing]

There is no doubt, most of are not citizens, and whatever class we are, we don't have the same legal rights as Thais.

I am no expert on the way things work in Thailand, but it seems to me if a lot of us cared about some of these issues and were willing to back that up with collective MONEY, we could indeed effect positive change over the fullness of time. I am talking about a farang legal rights activist organization that is run by Thai lawyers who are paid with our contributions. I am not talking about big changes quickly, but very small incremental changes, the kind that have taken place for gay people in the US who are still 50 years from full civil rights.

These kinds of things:

easier and more paths towards permanent residence status

ownership of small amounts of land and house with a 100 year provision (back to Thailand)

abolish the 49 percent condo rule, make it 100 percent

permanent residence path for those on retirement visas

more rights for those married to Thais with Thai children

easier paths for citizenship for those with Thai families and badly needed skills, perhaps on a grading system like Australia and Canada, but stricter, at least at first, and still requiring Thai language skills

Just a thought. If we were to throw money at such an organization, does anyone know if it could possibly work? Would it be legal?

While it is true, the Thai government doesn't care about these issues. But maybe with good PR they could be persuaded to see the benefits of this kind of opening up. If nothing else, it would be a positive public relations message to the world, that Thailand is now rich and desirable enough that people from the West are clamoring for Thai citizenship. There is also the issue of fairness: farangs are people too. Somehow, sometime plenty of Chinese people integrated into mainstream Thai culture. Why can't some farangs?

Edited December 3, 2007 by Jingthing

[kiakaha]

I certainly don't feel 2nd class. I'm happy as larry.

Thais are too proud of their Thainess and history of the preservation of this trait to willingly encourage(by way of laws) an influx of non-Thais deeper into the core fabric of society. As far as I am concerned non-Thais will continue to be tolerated and allowed a superficial presence in the years ahead, but dont expect any new law changes. Debating it, complaining about it is nothing short of intellectual gymnastics.I prefer Sudoku puzzles myself.

My advice, adapt. If you are still not satisfied, look for alternatives.

[Colombia]

I am talking about a farang legal rights activist organization that is run by Thai lawyers who are paid with our contributions.

Well i have seen some racist things in my time and this is certainly one of them. You want to start a 'legal right organization' exclusively for those with white skin? What about black skinned Europeans or Americans, Eurasians, Japanese, taiwanese, Korean, Indian and all the other foreigners who live here?

An exclusively caucasian legal network, i have heard it all now!

[Jingthing]

I am talking about a farang legal rights activist organization that is run by Thai lawyers who are paid with our contributions.

Well i have seen some racist things in my time and this is certainly one of them. You want to start a 'legal right organization' exclusively for those with white skin? What about black skinned Europeans or Americans, Eurasians, Japanese, taiwanese, Korean, Indian and all the other foreigners who live here?

An exclusively caucasian legal network, i have heard it all now!

Honey child, have you ever heard of NAACP in America?

It means the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. It is a very important historic group, still active today, even though we don't call African-Americans colored people anymore.

What barn did you grow up in that you never heard of a race based political advocacy group?

In the Thai context, race is already a factor. Indian Thais are already integrated. Chinese Thais are already integrated. Burmese are a special case. Farangs are a special case. Of course it would include black citizens of western countries, why would you be so racist as to assume it wouldn't? Sounds racist to you? Take a pill.

Also, in this fantasy case, if foreigners were allowed to own small plots of land, of course, also Japanese and such would be included as well.

That said, and as whacked out as your racism charge was, you actually bring up an interesting issue. The truth is, whether it is fair or not, whether we like it or not, immigration policies throughout the world do indeed take nationality and by implication race into account in their immigration laws and quotas. I was just brainstorming an idea on how farangs, who are indeed not integrated here, might over time, become more integrated. It is beyond me to suggest ways to make the entire world fair, perhaps you can have a stab at it?

Edited December 3, 2007 by Jingthing

[asiaworld]

In many countries immigrants have fought for their rights to be treated equally and to enjoy citizenship. Examples such as the African-Americans, the Afro-Caribbeans in the UK and the Maghrebians in France come to mind.

So why do we just accept second class citizen status? Why don’t we stand up for our rights? If Asians can hold EU passports and participate in the life and the economy of the EU countries, why do we stay as outsiders in Thailand?

ade100 it is a great thread you've started here & i really hope it will last long & produce some kind of results ! I completely agree with this plea, and happy to see a lot of likeminded souls on this forum ( i think we should organise an activist network, like Martin Luter King did in his time, when they were called Negros ! ) . Now i have been a foreigner most of my life, i have migrated got naturalised twice & got residency in more than Thailand .. So i know a thing or 2 about integrating into new society

Now over the past 10 years Thailand is my ...hmm..base/home/what can i call it .. I like the country, & i can see myself living here & being beneficial, but surely would like a thing or 2 to improve . And it can be done, countries change, societies, people .

Time & right effort changes everything , just observe the fall of communism . To those who say Thailand is NOT an immigrant country .. sorry to bust your balls >> IT IS ! Over the centuries neighbors & thais mixed a lot, khmer, lao, mon, than chinese, indians.. What makes Thailand Greater & Lovelier than for example M'sia, orother multicultural countries, is the SOFT ASSIMILATION ! Like chinese,indians,muslim change name adapt etc.. surely westerners can (& some of them would be happy ) to do the same.(remember thais can legaly change your name almost daily here ) . And now Thailand is an immigrant country, Because certain number of local population chooses to intermarry with foreigners , i know sounds cheesy the way it happends , but lets hope there are honest exceptions ( in any case Thai legislation still allow foreign women married to thai men receive citizenship, without much troubles ) . So give us your ideas , what can we do to make our adopted home

more accomodating

[ade100]

I am talking about a farang legal rights activist organization that is run by Thai lawyers who are paid with our contributions.

Well i have seen some racist things in my time and this is certainly one of them. You want to start a 'legal right organization' exclusively for those with white skin? What about black skinned Europeans or Americans, Eurasians, Japanese, taiwanese, Korean, Indian and all the other foreigners who live here?

An exclusively caucasian legal network, i have heard it all now!

Honey child, have you ever heard of NAACP in America?

It means the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. It is a very important historic group, still active today, even though we don't call African-Americans colored people anymore.

What barn did you grow up in that you never heard of a race based political advocacy group?

In the Thai context, race is already a factor. Indian Thais are already integrated. Chinese Thais are already integrated. Burmese are a special case. Farangs are a special case. Of course it would include black citizens of western countries, why would you be so racist as to assume it wouldn't? Sounds racist to you? Take a pill.

Also, in this fantasy case, if foreigners were allowed to own small plots of land, of course, also Japanese and such would be included as well.

That said, and as whacked out as your racism charge was, you actually bring up an interesting issue. The truth is, whether it is fair or not, whether we like it or not, immigration policies throughout the world do indeed take nationality and by implication race into account in their immigration laws and quotas. I was just brainstorming an idea on how farangs, who are indeed not integrated here, might over time, become more integrated. It is beyond me to suggest ways to make the entire world fair, perhaps you can have a stab at it?

Original Poster here:

Jingthing raises an interesting point. There are many rights groups, associations and councils in the UK and the US who aim to promote greater equality and better rights for ethnic minorities. Why couldn’t we have such a body in Thailand?

Second, in my OP I never mentioned Caucasians or “farang”. I recognise that a Japanese or Korean person living in Thailand would face the same discrimination as Caucasians.

Third, what the Thai government does care about is money. I, like many other internationals, do not want to risk investing too much money in Thailand as I may not even be allowed into the country next year. Singapore is where I will buy my luxury condominium. Thailand is where I will spend as little as possible. Of course if they were to be more “foreigner friendly” I might sell that condo in Singapore and invest in Thailand. Many more like me I suspect.

[asiaworld]

i would add the same.. this is an english speaking forum , but in no way limited by race ..

Heck guess we can even accept well off Burmese into our group

Edited December 3, 2007 by asiaworld

[Jingthing]

I raised the idea of an advocacy group but I have no idea if such an effort would any chance of working here, assuming the collective goals could be agreed on as well as raising the money. We would need to hear from some real Thai insiders for an opinion about that. Any such people reading here?

[samran]

I raised the idea of an advocacy group but I have no idea if such an effort would any chance of working here, assuming the collective goals could be agreed on as well as raising the money. We would need to hear from some real Thai insiders for an opinion about that. Any such people reading here?

I'm no insider, but in many respects I think the law strikes a pretty fair balance all things considered. The only area where I have a problem is that people with family members aren't granted permanent visas. This is unfair. Foriegn ownership rights, yes ideally, but Thailand (and it is mainly a great majority of uneducated Thais IMHO) need another 20 years to get used to the idea that a when a foreigner owns land here, it doesn't mean stealing it from the Thai people. But, that will come.

Apart from that though, I simply know too many people here, foriegners (farang and asian) who are going about with their work, lives and business. Many independently I might add. They apply and easily receive PR after a point, and are biding their time till they can get citizenship.

So I don't really buy the whole 'second class citizen' business. The first generation of migrants always struggle, not matter where you look in the world. The proof of the pudding is is the second generation, and I know a couple of second generation mixed Thai/farang or farangs children born and grown up here who have Thai passports. They all seem to be doing very well I must say.

[kiakaha]

I raised the idea of an advocacy group but I have no idea if such an effort would any chance of working here, assuming the collective goals could be agreed on as well as raising the money. We would need to hear from some real Thai insiders for an opinion about that. Any such people reading here?

I'm no insider, but in many respects I think the law strikes a pretty fair balance all things considered. The only area where I have a problem is that people with family members aren't granted permanent visas. This is unfair. Foriegn ownership rights, yes ideally, but Thailand (and it is mainly a great majority of uneducated Thais IMHO) need another 20 years to get used to the idea that a when a foreigner owns land here, it doesn't mean stealing it from the Thai people. But, that will come.

Apart from that though, I simply know too many people here, foriegners (farang and asian) who are going about with their work, lives and business. Many independently I might add. They apply and easily receive PR after a point, and are biding their time till they can get citizenship.

So I don't really buy the whole 'second class citizen' business. The first generation of migrants always struggle, not matter where you look in the world. The proof of the pudding is is the second generation, and I know a couple of second generation mixed Thai/farang or farangs children born and grown up here who have Thai passports. They all seem to be doing very well I must say.

As usual your post is filled with tripe and nonsense.

First generation of migrants? Biding their time until citizenship?

A handful of Westerners if you're lucky become Thai citizens.

I get sick of repeating myself. You are not an immigrant if you have a Non-Immigrant visa or permanent residency. You are merely a temporary visitor for purposes other than tourism or a resident.

Immigration has nothing to do with the basic human right of treating people as equals.

Just to add , when you get PR in Thailand, your category of visa is actually called an "Immigrant" Visa , as opposed to "Non-Immigrant" and "Tourist" Visas.

[TonyBlair]

I must say, i think the Thai authorities have it right.

Just look at the millions of immigrants who arrived in the UK under my watch.

Tony.

[TonyBlair]

I must say, i think the Thai authorities have it right.

Just look at the millions of immigrants who arrived in the UK under my watch.

Tony.

Who else is going to pay for your pension when the indigenous populous is too lazy or unwilling to do the jobs they don't want?

Cherie and i have private pensions, i have warned the kid's that there will be no state pension by the time they are eligable.

Tony.

[TheDon]

When I move there in a few years you will all be second class to me.

You will buy me beers and massage my feet.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I must say, i think the Thai authorities have it right.

Just look at the millions of immigrants who arrived in the UK under my watch.

Tony.

The hour of decision is nigh Tony. Which nickname do you want to keep ?