Second Class Citizens

[PhilHarries]

When I was in Thailand working I never considered myself second class and wouldn't if I was there now. But it all changes once your working life comes to a close. Personally I don't buy into the class system and do not particularly care whether I am considered a citizen or not. What I do consider important is that there be a way I can stay, with or without visa runs I don't mind, for the remainder of my life. I do not want to be constantly scanning the newspapers and immigration web sites for changes to the rules. I want the rules laid out clearly and unambiguously so that I can comply with them and be issued a visa without any fear of misinterpretation or personal interpretation of those rules by immigration.

I don't want to be a burden on society and when I finally hang up my boots I will have enough to live comfortably for the rest of my time. But that's what I want to do is live comfortably and hassle free. If Thailand doesn't want to give me this that's okay, it's their country, I will just have to consider the alternatives. To be quite honest I'm a bit of a drifter so a life split between Thailand, Malaysia, Viet Nam and the Philippines wouldn't be such a bad thing although I would prefer to settle down as I don't travel quite so well these days.

I understand that such rules may, and in the past have, let in undesirable elements of other societies but these could easily be eradicated by an honest, uncorruptible police force. But now I am dreaming again.

[seonai]

Hey PhilHarries, best of luck mate xxx Seonai

[Heng]

Second Class Citizens, Why do we put up with it?

You can't be a Second Class Citizen of Thailand if you are not in the first place a Citizen.

An excellent point. But let's not forget the hundreds of folks allowed citizenship each year.

[chanchao]

I like the idea of an advocacy group, but I just wouldn't want to be anywhere near the people who would be in it.

[Scott]

When I look around here, I am quite glad that I have a different citizenship. It's a great place to visit, it's a nice place to live, but frankly I think it's best to be from somewhere else.

[bendix]

I can't help wondering what would happen if the Thai authorities made it compulsory for us to become Thai citizens if we have been here for more than a year or so. I'm pretty sure the whining hordes would pack up their bags when they realised that rather than spending their times drinking beer in Soi Cowboy and shagging flat-nosed farmer's daughters for a pittance, they would be expected to do national service or spend time as a monk, their opinion may change.

Actually, what a dam_n good idea. Compulsory citizenship for all expats - that might get rid of the freeloading scum who really want to cherrypick their Thai experience rather than contribute anything back to their chosen new homeland.

[Heng]

I doubt there would be a mass exodus, Bendix. I think many of the "whining hordes" would be first to queue up, get sorted, and then get right back to whinging about something else.

[PeaceBlondie]

My retirement income is several times the average Thai teacher. I live in a nice moobahn, drive a sportbike and a nice old car, and don't have that much to complain out being 'mistreated.' It's easier to be gay here, than to be Christian. I'm not second class anything. I'll leave Thailand if I want to, or if they make me.

I also will not be a third-rate, mis-managed, abused employee here. And if I never learn Thai, I won't ever notice the word farang being used derogatorily!

[sonicdragon]

Isn't it obvious that the "ruling class" does not want a cosmopolitan society ? They want a homogenous society (as far as possible). It's their country. Why should foreigners expect to be able to come here and have the same kind of rights as thai people. Such a system would be completely open to abuse in the eyes of the thais.

[bendix]

Immigration has nothing to do with the basic human right of treating people as equals.

We dont want to be treated as equals, though, do we? Let's be honest for a while.

We want to have it all our own way. We want to come over to a third world country with our money and lord it over the locals. We want to capitalise on our goodluck of being born in the west and transfer our wealth to a poorer country because - well - that makes us even more like farang gods.

We use our relative wealth to insulate ourselves from the realities of a third world existence but when our gracious hosts (who, frankly, tolerate far more than i would from the quality of foreigners i see every day) say we can't own land to protect their own people from us using our money to raise prices, we complain. "Hey, not fair. Why not? Why not? Whine a lot, we're second class citizens.

Well, boo fuc_king hoo.

Grow up and accept it and be thankful that you're allowed to be here at all.

Ask yourselves a simple question. Would you be prepared to give up your home citizenship if it was easier to get Thai citizenship? If the answer is no, then you really have nothing to complain about.

[Dakhar]

The idea of an advocacy group with money thrown at it would fail because:

1) It would be seen as ant-Thai, and those involved would be thrown in jail.

2) The Thai govt gets a w00dy over showing the world how it refuses to influenced by outsiders. Despite the fact it would benifit them, they would rather be backwards.

SoundMan stated dispite your bank account, Thais will still treat you like low class, and I have to agree.

[a2396]

Second Class Citizens, Why do we put up with it?

You can't be a Second Class Citizen of Thailand if you are not in the first place a Citizen.

Exactly right. The OP must have some unusual job skills or education. I am an "educated professional" and I would have a slim chance of obtaining employment or PR status in Singapore. I know Malaysians who work in Singapore & they have little chance of PR status, let alone citizenship, unless they marry a Singaporean. There is no way I would consider giving up the citizenship of my home country and they do not allow dual citizenship in any case.

[LoveDaBlues]

My Thai wife lived with me in the Uk for over twenty years. She was always to proud to be Thai to want a British passport -bui she did have indefinite leave to remain and she could own land.

We returmned to live permanently(?????????) in Thailand this year.

The house here is not in joint names ---it is in her name only !

I couild afford and would like a more expensive house- my /her house is worth 2m baht.!

Most of my money is offshore- how does this benefit the Thai?

My life is run one year at a time Ie visa to visa

Most of my Thai friends do not know how uncaring their law is.

I could be sent home simply because the immigration officer dealing with my visa does not like my aftershave!!!!

My wife says if this every haapens we shall loook at at adjacent countries.

I love my wife and want her to enjoy her life here in her native country.

There should be humanitarian reasons for immigration too.

Glad you're not prone to exaggeration.

Has there ever been a SINGLE case to date where a retiree who meets the requirements has been 'sent home' for purely arbitrary reasons? None that I'm aware of.

Sure things can change. Things can change in ANY country. I'll keep taking my chances here.

[onzestan]

Why would I feel second class here when I'm a guest in this country?

Why do people always compare Thailand or Thai institutions with countries they consider superior.

Why not compare Thailand with the rest of the world, I can name a whole lot of countries that are far worse than Thailand, including my home country.

I know who and what I am and if others don't think the same so what.

I am accepted here amongst the people that know me well enough (well maybe not all) and this includes Thai's and foreigners.

What's wrong with a little gratitude towards the country that has graciously allowed you to live here, isn't that whats wrong with a lot of immigrants in the western world.

My 2 cents

onzestan

[ade100]

Second Class Citizens, Why do we put up with it?

You can't be a Second Class Citizen of Thailand if you are not in the first place a Citizen.

Exactly right. The OP must have some unusual job skills or education. I am an "educated professional" and I would have a slim chance of obtaining employment or PR status in Singapore. I know Malaysians who work in Singapore & they have little chance of PR status, let alone citizenship, unless they marry a Singaporean. There is no way I would consider giving up the citizenship of my home country and they do not allow dual citizenship in any case.

The OP just has an MSc in Information Systems and about 10 years experience in the field. Nothing special. But yes I have heard that for other Asians, getting the Employment Pass in Singapore is not so easy.

True. Singapore does not all dual-nationality. You cannot hold a Singapore passport and an EU passport. You can however become a Permanent Resident and maintain EU nationality.

But back to Thailand...

[a2396]

I can't help wondering what would happen if the Thai authorities made it compulsory for us to become Thai citizens if we have been here for more than a year or so. I'm pretty sure the whining hordes would pack up their bags when they realised that rather than spending their times drinking beer in Soi Cowboy and shagging flat-nosed farmer's daughters for a pittance, they would be expected to do national service or spend time as a monk, their opinion may change.

Actually, what a dam_n good idea. Compulsory citizenship for all expats - that might get rid of the freeloading scum who really want to cherrypick their Thai experience rather than contribute anything back to their chosen new homeland.

I am sure your comments are in jest. Such an idea is quite impractical, as I am sure you know. Certainly, the beer drinking, woman chasing, sleeze-ball farangs are totally outnumbered by their whisky-drinking, gambling, underage female chasing, Thai counterparts.

[Prakanong]

My Thai wife lived with me in the Uk for over twenty years. She was always to proud to be Thai to want a British passport -bui she did have indefinite leave to remain and she could own land.

We returmned to live permanently(?????????) in Thailand this year.

The house here is not in joint names ---it is in her name only !

I couild afford and would like a more expensive house- my /her house is worth 2m baht.!

Most of my money is offshore- how does this benefit the Thai?

My life is run one year at a time Ie visa to visa

Most of my Thai friends do not know how uncaring their law is.

I could be sent home simply because the immigration officer dealing with my visa does not like my aftershave!!!!

My wife says if this every haapens we shall loook at at adjacent countries.

I love my wife and want her to enjoy her life here in her native country.

There should be humanitarian reasons for immigration too.

Why bother complaining? You think you will get somewhere?

What applies in the UK , USA etc does not apply in Thailand.

If you cannot accept that.............then sorry but you should return back to the UK.

IMHO

Why bother complaining about anything in th world then?

Why do NGO's and other supra-national organisations exist? - to pay salaries of the staff or to try and make changes?

[meemiathai]

I think we better get back on topic. It is serious stuff and I don't want the OP to feel his thread being spoiled by people who disagrees with him.

[asiaworld]

Would be nice to keep this thread on the topic , instead of polluting it with rotten sarcasm , which may get it censored& closed..There's Farang Pub subforum for you also .. you know .. Samran had a very valid post in the end of first page . But a few other posters , made me think about the whole feasibility of advocasy group , and how may it help .. Unfortunately there's a segment of bend over farangs, that Thailand attracts , that prefer to wear rose-colored glasses, and keep it that way in their bubble of reality, when/if Thailand developes , it would be greater disaster for those .. I mean serious, what would be their chances to get laid in M'sia or S'pore with much more sofisticated population... Of course the option of naturalising here, should be only opento those , who are willing to assimilate , but it should be made a more Realistic & Attainable goal . How to go about it , educate the population, let them know , that there are white people among them , who MAY just may make a good compatriots , if given chance .. Now years back , in S'pore i've come across a great poster, in the police station: which said .. You can't spot illegal immigrant by the colour of their skin! That's sort of educational ..

Now how many times in their lives , those caucasian looking thai citizens & PRs have to PROVE themselves, by flashing their IDs/passports to prove, they're not tourists here eh...

Now they would surely appreciate more educated countrymen ..

[mrtoad]

Would be nice to keep this thread on the topic , instead of polluting it with rotten sarcasm , which may get it censored& closed..There's Farang Pub subforum for you also .. you know .. Samran had a very valid post in the end of first page . But a few other posters , made me think about the whole feasibility of advocasy group , and how may it help .. Unfortunately there's a segment of bend over farangs, that Thailand attracts , that prefer to wear rose-colored glasses, and keep it that way in their bubble of reality, when/if Thailand developes , it would be greater disaster for those .. I mean serious, what would be their chances to get laid in M'sia or S'pore with much more sofisticated population... Of course the option of naturalising here, should be only opento those , who are willing to assimilate , but it should be made a more Realistic & Attainable goal . How to go about it , educate the population, let them know , that there are white people among them , who MAY just may make a good compatriots , if given chance .. Now years back , in S'pore i've come across a great poster, in the police station: which said .. You can't spot illegal immigrant by the colour of their skin! That's sort of educational ..

Now how many times in their lives , those caucasian looking thai citizens & PRs have to PROVE themselves, by flashing their IDs/passports to prove, they're not tourists here eh...

Now they would surely appreciate more educated countrymen ..

Point taken.

[kdvsn]

I spend half my time in Singapore where my work is based but have a second home on Phuket. As an educated professional, it was very easy for me to get a Work Permit for Singapore. I could become a Permanent Resident or even a Singapore Citizen at any time. I am treated as an equal by the host society and my skills are recognised and in demand.

Contrast this with Thailand. Work Permits and Visas are not easy to come by. It is extremely difficult to become a Thai citizen even if married to a Thai. Consequently most of us will never be able to vote or to own land here. Even setting up a business is extremely difficult as a non-Thai. Jobs adverts often specify “Thai Nationality” and our skills are generally not welcome or recognised. Ex-Pats also complain about having to pay much higher prices than the locals do for pretty much everything.

In many countries immigrants have fought for their rights to be treated equally and to enjoy citizenship. Examples such as the African-Americans, the Afro-Caribbeans in the UK and the Maghrebians in France come to mind.

So why do we just accept second class citizen status? Why don’t we stand up for our rights? If Asians can hold EU passports and participate in the life and the economy of the EU countries, why do we stay as outsiders in Thailand?

Note this is not a thread about Thailand’s inequalities. It is asking why the international people here don’t do more to oppose it.

Looking forward to your intelligent, informed, charming and witty replies. Please try to resist replies in the “if you don’t like it, you can F off” genre as I am already aware of this option.

Lastly, apologies to the veterans who have discussed this before. I did do a search and found little on the topic.

Singapore is an unusually good country for a Western profesional to relocate to. It's not that they merely treat you as an equal, it's that unless you are a complete clod they will treat you as a superior. You do need a good stream of incoome for Sinagore to be financially atractive though -- if you make enough money to hang out with the bankers at Harry's Quayside then Singapore it great, but not so much if you're working on local wages.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The idea of an advocacy group with money thrown at it would fail because:

1) It would be seen as ant-Thai, and those involved would be thrown in jail.

2) The Thai govt gets a w00dy over showing the world how it refuses to influenced by outsiders. Despite the fact it would benifit them, they would rather be backwards.

SoundMan stated dispite your bank account, Thais will still treat you like low class, and I have to agree.

Right on

[PeaceBlondie]

That's all, folks. We don't have time to hand out all the warnings. Topic closed.

...ADDED: by request of the OP, I'm reopening this for serious discussion about second class citizenship for farang in Thailand.

Do not feed the trolls. 46 posts have been deleted.

[ade100]

Thanks to asiaworld and the moderator for getting us back on track. And for those who wish to discuss romantic encounters between British gentlemen and Asian ladies, I understand there are other outlets available.

To summarise:

Asiaworld and jinthing suggested some sort of pressure group or advocacy group that could be used to put the non-Thai argument forward to the government. I suspect the only argument would be an economic one. If Thailand wishes to become an advanced “first world” country, it is unlikely to do it without capitalising on foreign talent, skills and investment (as Singapore has done). But does Thailand want to become a wealthy, advanced “first world” country? And should it?

Bendix points out that we don’t really want equality. We want the best of both worlds; to maintain our Western wealth while having all the advantages of Thai citizenship. A fair point. But surely there could be a better solution to what we have now. In Singapore, a Permanent Resident does not have to keep having to do visa runs, reporting to police stations and immigration offices, etc.

The point has also been raised about people who have families or who are retired here. Making people jump through a million hoops just to spend time with their families just seems plain wrong to me.

Lastly there have been many posts in the “why complain about it” genre. It was never my intention to set up a complaining about Thailand thread. I was just interested to see if anyone had any ideas about how the situation could be improved. A hundred years ago, my female compatriots did not have the right to vote or to own land. They achieved it not through complaining, nor violence, nor indifference but through standing up for their basic human rights. I know we are not Victorian women, but shouldn’t we be doing the same thing?

[DirkGently]

I agree with all those that say Thais don't care. One doesn't have to look far to find contempt for 'farangs'. Like most racism it is bred from ignorance. From cradle to grave Thais are expected to be clones of one another and live by the mantra "Don't think about it. It's to serious".

Today, for example, I went to a sale for staff in my building as was refused entry because I was not Thai. The staff running the sale wanted me to come in and the staff from my office thought it stupid of him, but he wouldn't relent. Both his brain cells were no doubt grinding away to produce the thought 'not Thai'.

However, I try not to let the constant stream of nonsense and buffoonary wear me down. I have more money than most Thais. A far better education than most and almost certainly a better world view than the majority.

But hey, the golf is cheap and the weather fine.

[Jingthing]

The idea of an advocacy group with money thrown at it would fail because:

1) It would be seen as ant-Thai, and those involved would be thrown in jail.

2) The Thai govt gets a w00dy over showing the world how it refuses to influenced by outsiders. Despite the fact it would benifit them, they would rather be backwards.

SoundMan stated dispite your bank account, Thais will still treat you like low class, and I have to agree.

Right on

I suspected this might be the case. Oh well!

I guess my idea was if the goals were kept small enough, they could be adopted slowly with great diplomacy.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Jingthing

[samran]

I raised the idea of an advocacy group but I have no idea if such an effort would any chance of working here, assuming the collective goals could be agreed on as well as raising the money. We would need to hear from some real Thai insiders for an opinion about that. Any such people reading here?

I'm no insider, but in many respects I think the law strikes a pretty fair balance all things considered. The only area where I have a problem is that people with family members aren't granted permanent visas. This is unfair. Foriegn ownership rights, yes ideally, but Thailand (and it is mainly a great majority of uneducated Thais IMHO) need another 20 years to get used to the idea that a when a foreigner owns land here, it doesn't mean stealing it from the Thai people. But, that will come.

Apart from that though, I simply know too many people here, foriegners (farang and asian) who are going about with their work, lives and business. Many independently I might add. They apply and easily receive PR after a point, and are biding their time till they can get citizenship.

So I don't really buy the whole 'second class citizen' business. The first generation of migrants always struggle, not matter where you look in the world. The proof of the pudding is is the second generation, and I know a couple of second generation mixed Thai/farang or farangs children born and grown up here who have Thai passports. They all seem to be doing very well I must say.

As usual your post is filled with tripe and nonsense.

First generation of migrants? Biding their time until citizenship?

A handful of Westerners if you're lucky become Thai citizens.

I get sick of repeating myself. You are not an immigrant if you have a Non-Immigrant visa or permanent residency. You are merely a temporary visitor for purposes other than tourism or a resident.

Immigration has nothing to do with the basic human right of treating people as equals.

Seeing I like tripe:

frankly, I'd take your posts much more seriously it didn't come from a poster who ended up as the 'victim' in just about every human interaction he had here in Thailand. You don't strike me as particularly objective. I may not be objective either, but the other side of the story needs to be heard, or are you saying the 'oh woe is me brigade' should have the only say in these issues.

[camerata]

Asiaworld and jinthing suggested some sort of pressure group or advocacy group that could be used to put the non-Thai argument forward to the government. I suspect the only argument would be an economic one. If Thailand wishes to become an advanced “first world” country, it is unlikely to do it without capitalising on foreign talent, skills and investment (as Singapore has done). But does Thailand want to become a wealthy, advanced “first world” country? And should it?

I can tell you pretty easily why such a pressure group would fail: national pride. Developing countries don't like foreigners pressuring them (and who can blame them?). What was it Putin said a couple of days ago? "Foreigners should keep their snotty noses out of our business!" If foreigners tried to pressure the Thai government, it would have the opposite effect of what was intended.

In any case, I don't see much chance of "temporary visitors" pressuring a government over visa issues, and the bona fide immigrants (PR holders and naturalized Thais) have long since learned that you don't get ahead in a groupist society by going against the flow and making demands.

[Jingthing]

I can tell you pretty easily why such a pressure group would fail: national pride. Developing countries don't like foreigners pressuring them (and who can blame them?). What was it Putin said a couple of days ago? "Foreigners should keep their snotty noses out of our business!" If foreigners tried to pressure the Thai government, it would have the opposite effect of what was intended.

In any case, I don't see much chance of "temporary visitors" pressuring a government over visa issues, and the bona fide immigrants (PR holders and naturalized Thais) have long since learned that you don't get ahead in a groupist society by going against the flow and making demands.

What you say makes sense. That is why I suggested that Thai people run this organization. Are you saying there is no possible Thai way that any change at all could (in theory) be effected, again slowly and gingerly? I doubt this is absolutely true, that there is absolutely no way this could be done, but I also doubt we will ever organize enough to try it.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Jingthing

[camerata]

What you say makes sense. That is why I suggested that Thai people run this organization. Are you saying there is no possible Thai way that any change at all could (in theory) be effected, again slowly and gingerly?

I think effecting changes at government policy level - if it could be done at all - would take a network of very senior and well-connected Thais. Money would not be the issue. The issue would be how to get such an influential group on board and willing to risk their reputations and call in favours for foreigners in general.

As for creating an official organization in Thailand, this is complicated and requires investigation and approval from the police special branch (a legacy of the old communist days). That's why you see so many "clubs" in Thailand, and "associations" or "organizations" usually have famous people involved. Needless to say, foreign pressure groups are viewed with suspicion by the police.