Has Being Gay In Thailand Changed You?

[cm-happy]

Has being gay in Thailand changed you? Are you different from what you were in your home country? Please see post about how being gay defines you. Don't really want to hear from people who just holiday here, but from those who are staying here long term or have been here long term

[PeaceBlondie]

cm-happy, you've got two similar topics started at the same time, the other one being whether the word 'gay' defines a person. So, if you don't mind, maybe this topic can be what its title suggests, how living long-term has changed us, as a gay person.

I don't know how much it's changed me, to live here for over four years. At last I can tell total strangers that I have a boyfriend, without fear of being attacked by a Texas tornado. Time changes everybody, hopefully for the best. Expatriate life can be similar in many countries. I've been called farang and gay here, but never katoey..........

[cm-happy]

cm-happy, you've got two similar topics started at the same time, the other one being whether the word 'gay' defines a person. So, if you don't mind, maybe this topic can be what its title suggests, how living long-term has changed us, as a gay person.

I don't know how much it's changed me, to live here for over four years. At last I can tell total strangers that I have a boyfriend, without fear of being attacked by a Texas tornado. Time changes everybody, hopefully for the best. Expatriate life can be similar in many countries. I've been called farang and gay here, but never katoey..........

fine with me PB

[THAILIBAN]

in a few words: from the moment I set feet on Asian surface for the first time (which was not Thailand at that time, even I ended up here for some rather practical reasons ), NOTHING in my life was same as before. I can say, my life has changed 100% from that moment.

nowadays, when I go back to my home country 1 or 2 times a year to see my old folks, it almost amuses me to see under what conditions gay men my age live there. and I feel pity for those gay people my age (not a teen, but not a retiree as well). Because they dont know (or refuse to believe) that Asia is a different world with different values.

still today, some friends from my home country don't believe the stories I tell them about living here. they still insist to say "what u tell us, can not exist". but I know its real, thanks god...

I have a certain "value" over here (and I am not talking about matarialistic things "rich farang" and such).

My self-esteem nowadays is much much higher, and the thought of being forced to go back and live in my native country until my dying days, makes me goosebumps....

Edited December 4, 2007 by THAILIBAN

[farang prince]

Wow!!!! What a question. Well, six years ago I came to Thailand to train some Royal Thai Police. One night a group of us went to a well-known cabaret show in Nana Plaza. And there I spotted the most beautiful creature I've ever laid eyes on. After the show, I met this ladyboy and arranged breakfast together. We have been together ever since. Each day that I wake up next to the love of my life, I start the day out with a kiss and the joy I feel is overwhelming. Has being gay in Thailand changed me? Well, being in Thailand sure has changed me. And I couldn't be happier.

[Jingthing]

It has made me insufferably PICKY. I can't go back now ...

[peekint]

Wonderful Question. "Has Being Gay in Thailand Changed You?"

I grew up in the States, where, outside the major metropoli (and even in parts of those), there is the very real possibility that one can be murdered, beaten, or verbally abused for being at all open about being Gay. I'm not talking about being open by being particularly flamboyant or feminine. Just being a stranger in the wrong clothes, just being with another man and not acting overly "butch", or just seeming out of place can be enough to trigger the hateful and harmful.

I began visiting Thailand in 1989. I moved here full time a bit over 10 years ago.

Here, my long-term same-sex relationship is accepted by family, temple, village, city, general population, and even by most of the government. If I ride a bright Pink Fino scooter, it puts me in no physical danger (except, perhaps, from inebriated vacationing Aussies). When I work, when I shop, when travel, when I relax, I am just myself. We are just ourselves as a couple. At any hotel we stay when we travel around Thailand, there is no need to be shy about asking for "one big bed" for the two of us.

I get joy every time we're served by a lady boy flight attendant or waitress at Black Canyon. I get joy when I see teenage boys in high school in "gay" cliques. I get joy when I see all kinds of folks un-self consciously being themselves because it's just nobody's darn business.

I've found that I can be myself without being confrontational, especially assertive, or even pointed. I was "myself" in the States, but it took effort. Isn't that ridiculous? It took EFFORT to just be natural.

Now, life is just life, love is just love. Like Popeye would say, "I Yam what I Yam"

Wow, what an adjustment that makes when I have to go back to the states to visit the old folks at home. ( I should say my family is quite accepting, even up to my 87 year old Aunt}. I can safely say, when I have no more family there, I won't miss it a bit if I never go back

Yes, I've changed. I can no longer just take the bullshit and say it's part of the struggle for future generations. I now see that the struggle exists because of the mean spirit and evil influence of zealotry. I need no part of that.

[Jingthing]

That's interesting Peekint that you seem to paint Thailand as a kind of gay liberation paradise. I don't think Thai gays see it quite the same way. But it sounds like it is a great match for you, so congratulations.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Jingthing

[peter991]

Asia is a different world with different values

That has to be the quote of the week - or the month. It is so true. Maybe it would make a great T shirt slogan.

Nothing that you read in the media can prepare you for life in Thailand. I grew up in Perth in the 1960s and early 1970s. Went to Melbourne in the mid-1970s. That was an eye-opener. Arrived in Thailand for the first time in 2001. That was like taking off army boots and putting on a pair of slippers.

Although I am not an expat yet, I love Thailand in that I can be myself - I can hold hands with my Thai bf as we walk down the street.

While it's okay for a farang to be gay in Thailand (anywhere from big cities to remote villages), it's a lot harder for gay Thais, who are expected to settle down, marry a girl and produce a family. That's another topic I hope somebody starts one day.

Peter

[ProThaiExpat]

I had to ask my Thai mate to answer the OP's question as I couldn't see what six years has done for me. I was retired in Hawaii before I came here, some say Hawaii is paradise, so the usually work/no work change was already done.

My mate just answered the question as follows, "You are more relaxed than six years ago, for easy going and you don't try to control me as much". I asked more "mae pen rai" and he said "yes".

I do know that I couldn't allow my daughter in the kitchen with me when I was cooking back then, now its no big deal. I really don't care how the food comes out really, since company comes over to see me, not for a gourmet meal.

"Going with the flow", "Que sera sera" are phrases that come to mind. Whether these states of mind would have occurred anyway as a result of long term retirement in the West, I can't say. I do think that Thais in general are more accepting of my and my way of living, especially with a younger Thai who "takes care" of me and makes a very big point of that when out in public. I think it gives him "face".

My daughter told me early on that I needed to allow my mate "to take care of me", "let him do for me" which is what he wanted to do to contribute to our relationship. This I have done. So another un-noticed change.

Short of importing a old friend from the West, it is indeed a difficult question to answer in general. Ah, just thought of one!. Five years ago, I entered all major expenses into Quicken so we could stay on budget, today I just put the gross amount every month into our spending account and when it is gone, it is gone and we tighten our belts until the next month arrives, I do cheat a little and borrow ahead for unusual expenses on occasion.

[peekint]

That's interesting Peekint that you seem to paint Thailand as a kind of gay liberation paradise. I don't think Thai gays see it quite the same way. But it sounds like it is a great match for you, so congratulations.

I guess I wouldn't add the word "liberation" to "Gay paradise"; the choice of word seems to imply some sort of anti-activist bias since Gay-lib was an essentially activist movement (long defunct with that name). Here, the "gay paradise" has arisen quite naturally out of the basics of culture and religion rather than earned by sacrifice and activism. Any negative attitudes toward natural relationships seems to have arrived with the Chinese and Christian Missionary invasions.

My experience is that Thai Gays who move overseas are quite happy to be back in Thailand. Yes, perhaps Thai Gays here don't see what they have - does anyone ever until they lose it? - but they sure take advantage of it.

I would separate the Thai Chinese as a special case, by the way. They live in a completely different sub-culture of family subterfuge which even exceeds that now found in China, Taiwan and Hong Kong. Often isolated communities cling to outdated values and customs as a way of preserving identity.

[Ijustwannateach]

The lack of violent-style homophobia here is indeed refreshing- in fact, I have only encountered it here in a few other foreigners, and they are a small minority indeed. Most of the mainstream Thai guys I have dated, however, are very careful still about their public image. They may be easily identifiable as gay by virtue of their dress, mannerism, and/or being out and about with me; however, they toe the public community line in terms of PDA (public display of affection)- no handholding or anything stronger than that in public- but them's the rules for "good" straight couples, too.

For most Thais, I would guess that homophobia manifests not as a physical revulsion but as a concern over social "rules"- if you're gay how are you going to have children, support the family, keep the whole generational project going? In the past the answer was "simple"- you get married and have kids anyway ("close your eyes and think of Thailand"). Starting with the next generation or so, I'm not so sure.

Anyway, to answer the OP- I have become more tolerant of the ambiguity that exists in human relationships because in Thailand that ambiguity is expressed more prominently and one is forced to come to terms with it. I used to believe that such ambiguities were a peculiarity here, but with more reflection I think that in other places it is simply easier to delude oneself or avoid thinking about them.

"S"

[popshirt]

One of my happiest moments in Thailand occurred on the skytrain one day. There was a group of elementary school students, all boys, and all in their uniforms and probably around 10 years old. One of the boys was wearing lipstick and had obviously plucked his eyebrows. He was treated just like one of the gang. That day, I KNEW I wasn't in Kansas any more!

[Ijustwannateach]

^It's true- I just have to smile inside when I see some of the kids in schools these days. They would have been sacrificed for Jesus in the football stadium at the 50 yard line back where I come from.

[Scott]

Boy has Thailand changed me. Not only did the closet doors swing open, I think they fell off their hinges entirely!

[Steve2UK]

Not to disagree with the preceding posts, but while reading this thread I was reminded of a Thai movie that was shown on TV earlier this week (Thai soundtrack with English sub-titles) which was all about a Thai volleyball team that was almost 100% gay - the exceptions being one straight guy and a post-op katoey (IMO therefore not gay - but that's another topic). Anyhow, the whole thing revolved around them going through to win a national tournament - in spite of blatant dirty tricks by the stiff-shirt (anti-gay?) tournament manager and others. The movie was run through with many examples of taunts and mocking from their macho straight opponents about them being "tootsies" (in the English sub-title translation). My Thai friend told me that the movie is about 10 years old or maybe that the events occurred 10 years ago - it's evidently a true story and the original players are shown in TV footage and photographs at the end of the movie together with captions about what they went on to do in later life. BTW, the team's short-haired female coach is referred to more than once as "that lesbian" (again mockingly).

For all the world, this could have been a US/UK (basically western) movie - but it was pure Thai.

[Pawpcorn]

I'll say that after living in California all my life... And having such wonderful events as having my own brother completely disown me for bringing my then-boyfriend to my nephew's wedding, thus "outing" myself...

After spending 8 days in Bangkok... I already felt more at ease and relaxed than I'd felt my entire life in the States.

Being able to walk hand in hand... and, as a 58 year old... having my beautiful 35 year old Thai boyfriend eagerly seek out my hand to hold... feeling his simple and honest love and affection for me... is like heaven on earth.

Sure, it took 3 previous boyfriends to find one that had such a good heart, but I managed to get that out of the way in less than 3 months... and we've been together every day since meeting 14 months ago.

He gives me the hope and the drive to keep working (a full schedule, teaching English), as we save together, to buy a retirement home together, in 8 or so years in his home town, in North East Thailand.

I don't think that gay Thais have a clue just what a living hel_l it is for gays in other parts of the world.

I LOVE the "Who cares...???" attitude that's predominant here, and I truely cannot consider moving back to the states for any reason.

Sometimes I'll daydream about this or that beautiful spot in California, and feel lonely for it a bit... and then I remember... "Oh yeah, I could get KILLED, just for living there... gay." and thank God I found my way to Thailand.

I think I'm really lucky, and blessed, to have found my bf. I hope other farangs can be as lucky as me.

Pawpcorn

[KKK]

One of my happiest moments in Thailand occurred on the skytrain one day. There was a group of elementary school students, all boys, and all in their uniforms and probably around 10 years old. One of the boys was wearing lipstick and had obviously plucked his eyebrows. He was treated just like one of the gang. That day, I KNEW I wasn't in Kansas any more!

You should watch "Ang Pagdadalaga Ni Maximo Oliveros" a philipines film available with english subtitles as "The Blossoming of Maximo Oliveros". All about a 12-year-old boy who dresses and behaves like a girl.

He has only older brothers. He was probably raised as a girl. It is quite common in Thailand for the last male-child in a line of male offspring to be raised as a girl. That doesn't make him gay of course.

[PeaceBlondie]

Another TV member and I were buying stuff at the big store when I spied four matayom 1 students, age 12. Three girls in girls' uniforms, and a boy who saw himself as a girl, also. Hair done in the katoey style, shopping with the other girls, affecting a falsetto which he thinks is his proper voice. I'm seen enough of them to know the signs. My boyfriend says he was like that. My b/f had 3 older sisters and was the only boy, so it's not as if they wanted him or needed him to be gay. He just was and he just is, though he never wears dresses and only speaks with the feminine ending when he's joking.

And they're versatile in bed! Amazing Thailand.

[endure]

Not to disagree with the preceding posts, but while reading this thread I was reminded of a Thai movie that was shown on TV earlier this week (Thai soundtrack with English sub-titles) which was all about a Thai volleyball team that was almost 100% gay - the exceptions being one straight guy and a post-op katoey (IMO therefore not gay - but that's another topic). Anyhow, the whole thing revolved around them going through to win a national tournament - in spite of blatant dirty tricks by the stiff-shirt (anti-gay?) tournament manager and others. The movie was run through with many examples of taunts and mocking from their macho straight opponents about them being "tootsies" (in the English sub-title translation). My Thai friend told me that the movie is about 10 years old or maybe that the events occurred 10 years ago - it's evidently a true story and the original players are shown in TV footage and photographs at the end of the movie together with captions about what they went on to do in later life. BTW, the team's short-haired female coach is referred to more than once as "that lesbian" (again mockingly).

For all the world, this could have been a US/UK (basically western) movie - but it was pure Thai.

You're talking about 'The Iron Ladies/Satree Lek'. The difference is that in the UK/US the (real) team would never have been allowed to form in the first place.

[Pawpcorn]

One of my happiest moments in Thailand occurred on the skytrain one day. There was a group of elementary school students, all boys, and all in their uniforms and probably around 10 years old. One of the boys was wearing lipstick and had obviously plucked his eyebrows. He was treated just like one of the gang. That day, I KNEW I wasn't in Kansas any more!

You should watch "Ang Pagdadalaga Ni Maximo Oliveros" a philipines film available with english subtitles as "The Blossoming of Maximo Oliveros". All about a 12-year-old boy who dresses and behaves like a girl.

He has only older brothers. He was probably raised as a girl. It is quite common in Thailand for the last male-child in a line of male offspring to be raised as a girl. That doesn't make him gay of course.

There is an established medical phenomenom recently discovered, where due to reasons not fully understood... in a line of male offspring... each successive son is statistically twice as likely to turn out to be gay as the previous brother. Medical scientists believe there is something that goes on within the mother's body that with each successive son there is something akin to an anti-body buildup where the female body of the mother does more and more of ~something~(!) that tends to suppress the masculinity and enhance the feminity of the developing child within.

Ummmm... I was the fourth born, and the second brother...

And my Thai boyfriend, who, mentally, is VERY feminine, which I love, was the last son in a string of sons...

Pawpcorn

Edited December 11, 2007 by Pawpcorn

[Pawpcorn]

And they're versatile in bed! Amazing Thailand.

Same, same, what a wonderful discovery.... just one more reason to love and appreciate the Thai Culture!

Pawpcorn

[endure]

I'm the first born and my younger brother is as straight as a straight thing

[peekint]

Not to disagree with the preceding posts, but while reading this thread I was reminded of a Thai movie that was shown on TV earlier this week (Thai soundtrack with English sub-titles) which was all about a Thai volleyball team that was almost 100% gay - the exceptions being one straight guy and a post-op katoey (IMO therefore not gay - but that's another topic). Anyhow, the whole thing revolved around them going through to win a national tournament - in spite of blatant dirty tricks by the stiff-shirt (anti-gay?) tournament manager and others. The movie was run through with many examples of taunts and mocking from their macho straight opponents about them being "tootsies" (in the English sub-title translation). My Thai friend told me that the movie is about 10 years old or maybe that the events occurred 10 years ago - it's evidently a true story and the original players are shown in TV footage and photographs at the end of the movie together with captions about what they went on to do in later life. BTW, the team's short-haired female coach is referred to more than once as "that lesbian" (again mockingly).

For all the world, this could have been a US/UK (basically western) movie - but it was pure Thai.

You're talking about 'The Iron Ladies/Satree Lek'. The difference is that in the UK/US the (real) team would never have been allowed to form in the first place.

Also, there is a lot lost in the translation - the subtitles barely match what is actually said. Yes, there is abuse in the movie; yes, there is discrimination. However, the katoeys in the movie are quite able to defend themselves. Actually, the movie is more about competition and overcoming adversity and disadvantage than being a Gay movie. A lot of the abuse thrown about is to play to the rather juvenile level of comedy common to Thai movies.

[Rionoir]

It has made me insufferably PICKY. I can't go back now ...

ohmigosh how true is that! lol

[Onnutrd]

Oh my gosh. Where to start? Hmmmm...

YES.

In NZ I was a quiet gay 20 year old, who, conservative on the outside (if that's even possible with being Gay) was also a Christian who attended mass on Sunday mornings. I never did anything to make it seem I was 'too much', I preferred the traditional way.

As an individual with mixed ethnicities (I'm asian and european), it was slightly easy for me to be able to get away with things (like dressing more feminine as Asian guys have a tendency to do) than compared to other Kiwi or European gays.

Either way, I did'nt do much that would let people think I was gay (even I was 'out' to my family and my close friends), because I thought I liked the conservative.

Since I came to Thailand 4 months ago, I have had a few changes (not physical 55).

I suppose one of my greatest accomplishments was accepting that I am gay, and that it's ok to be gay.

I never accepted that it is ok to be gay until I came to Thailand, and realised that perhaps as a Christian I need to understand that God too accepts and loves all humans, including those who are gay. So I've completely changed my idea on life aswell.

I'm more happy now having accepted who I am. Be who you want to be, or accept who you are.

[Onnutrd]

One of my happiest moments in Thailand occurred on the skytrain one day. There was a group of elementary school students, all boys, and all in their uniforms and probably around 10 years old. One of the boys was wearing lipstick and had obviously plucked his eyebrows. He was treated just like one of the gang. That day, I KNEW I wasn't in Kansas any more!

I've had the same experience, and in a way, it's uplifting

[himachal]

Wonderful Question. "Has Being Gay in Thailand Changed You?"

I grew up in the States, where, outside the major metropoli (and even in parts of those), there is the very real possibility that one can be murdered, beaten, or verbally abused for being at all open about being Gay. I'm not talking about being open by being particularly flamboyant or feminine. Just being a stranger in the wrong clothes, just being with another man and not acting overly "butch", or just seeming out of place can be enough to trigger the hateful and harmful.

I began visiting Thailand in 1989. I moved here full time a bit over 10 years ago.

Here, my long-term same-sex relationship is accepted by family, temple, village, city, general population, and even by most of the government. If I ride a bright Pink Fino scooter, it puts me in no physical danger (except, perhaps, from inebriated vacationing Aussies). When I work, when I shop, when travel, when I relax, I am just myself. We are just ourselves as a couple. At any hotel we stay when we travel around Thailand, there is no need to be shy about asking for "one big bed" for the two of us.

I get joy every time we're served by a lady boy flight attendant or waitress at Black Canyon. I get joy when I see teenage boys in high school in "gay" cliques. I get joy when I see all kinds of folks un-self consciously being themselves because it's just nobody's darn business.

I've found that I can be myself without being confrontational, especially assertive, or even pointed. I was "myself" in the States, but it took effort. Isn't that ridiculous? It took EFFORT to just be natural.

Now, life is just life, love is just love. Like Popeye would say, "I Yam what I Yam"

Wow, what an adjustment that makes when I have to go back to the states to visit the old folks at home. ( I should say my family is quite accepting, even up to my 87 year old Aunt}. I can safely say, when I have no more family there, I won't miss it a bit if I never go back

Yes, I've changed. I can no longer just take the bullshit and say it's part of the struggle for future generations. I now see that the struggle exists because of the mean spirit and evil influence of zealotry. I need no part of that.

Hi Peekint

All you've said rings true for me, too, as I'm sure it does for many others. "folks un-self consciously being themselves because it's just nobody's darn business" reminded me of a beautiful scene I witnessed on the skytrain last year. Two schoolboys in passionate embrace (tongues in ears too!!!) at rush hour. Their obvious affection for one another was so sweet and their blatant horniness brought smiles from all passengers - no shock, scorn or snide remarks.

Yes; I've changed too. I can relax as who I am sexually, and leave all that effort you referred to behind. I think we are very lucky to be able to live here and my heart goes out to those not able to share our good fortune (particularly in Iran and some other places).

[himachal]

One of my happiest moments in Thailand occurred on the skytrain one day. There was a group of elementary school students, all boys, and all in their uniforms and probably around 10 years old. One of the boys was wearing lipstick and had obviously plucked his eyebrows. He was treated just like one of the gang. That day, I KNEW I wasn't in Kansas any more!

[himachal]

One of my happiest moments in Thailand occurred on the skytrain one day. There was a group of elementary school students, all boys, and all in their uniforms and probably around 10 years old. One of the boys was wearing lipstick and had obviously plucked his eyebrows. He was treated just like one of the gang. That day, I KNEW I wasn't in Kansas any more!

You should watch "Ang Pagdadalaga Ni Maximo Oliveros" a philipines film available with english subtitles as "The Blossoming of Maximo Oliveros". All about a 12-year-old boy who dresses and behaves like a girl.

He has only older brothers. He was probably raised as a girl. It is quite common in Thailand for the last male-child in a line of male offspring to be raised as a girl. That doesn't make him gay of course.

There is an established medical phenomenom recently discovered, where due to reasons not fully understood... in a line of male offspring... each successive son is statistically twice as likely to turn out to be gay as the previous brother. Medical scientists believe there is something that goes on within the mother's body that with each successive son there is something akin to an anti-body buildup where the female body of the mother does more and more of ~something~(!) that tends to suppress the masculinity and enhance the feminity of the developing child within.

Ummmm... I was the fourth born, and the second brother...

And my Thai boyfriend, who, mentally, is VERY feminine, which I love, was the last son in a string of sons...

Pawpcorn

Mmmmm.....not so sure it's a biological progression, pawpcorn. I'd call it 'learning from mistakes'!!!