Electricity

[Naam]

Else I am having my washing machine in the bathroom. Both outlets, one for shaving machine and one for washing machine are grounded.

[david96]

I've just finished speaking to a friend, who is a "working" electrician in the USA. He has informed me & supplied me with info regarding "wire nuts" as currently used in the USA.

These "wire nuts" are rated for a minimum of 300 volts, therefore "safe" to use on Thai voltages. They are "twist on" & do not use screws unlike the Australian variety, which do use screws.

At the end of the day, the reason why these devices fail is because the person who installed them used too much force (either screwing or twisting) OR did not twist the wires OR twisted the wires incorrectly. This all goes back to "training". Actually, most electrical "connection" problems are caused by people (electricians), who have either forgotten/ignored their training or have not received adequate training in this regard.

This begs the question, "Why are 99% of the 'wire to wire' connections in Thai domestic situations (not oil rigs) twisted together without the use of any mechanical device?"

Of course, the "high quality" workmanship in Thailand would never allow this.

BTW, I only know of one Thai electrician whom I would trust...he lives in Klaeng & he charges 300 Baht per hour (as he should).

Scotchlok connectors manufactured by the 3M company, available in Australia. To be installed in an approved enclosure as they are only classed as single insulation.

You will often find in Thailand connections twisted and taped. Reason is most probably the electrician had no approved connectors at the time. Connections must always be in an approved enclosure. Connections that are not soldered or in an approved connector are not permitted in an electrical installation.

[Gimbo]

In homes, only wet rooms bath room/ shower room and what is refered to as a moist room in regulations, f.ex kitchen, need to be grounded in Norway.

Living rooms, bedrooms etc do not require it.

Fuse box or whatever it is called in english these days is also grounded. Wall outlets is the standard two prong euro plug.

Do you think that the electrical rules of Norway, apply in Thailand?

No, hence I had the whole house rewired, and every outlet is grounded, and you wont see a single extension cord in use here.

On the other hand, the laws of physics Do apply to Thailand.

I do not see why you ask, I was simply answering a question...

[lopburi3]

Below is link to a very cheap screw on wire nut and rating is 600v. The problem with usage here by those not using them normally would be too much insulation removed and bare or nicked wire being exposed, or too loosely twisted and nut can slip off. A partial solution is to cover each nut with electrical tape but have seen the nuts for sale here recently so expect some electricians are starting to learn and use them.

http://www.goodmart.com/products/85228.htm

Split bolts as below provide a much better connection but also cost a lot more and have to be heavily taped over (but well worth it for heavy wire).

http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/14-46-...connectors.aspx

[jackspratt]

I had an aunt who died by a lightning strike while she was playing golf in what was then Zimbabwe

Just out of interest, what is it now?

[Naam]

I had an aunt who died by a lightning strike while she was playing golf in what was then Zimbabwe

Just out of interest, what is it now?

Zimbabwe is now called "The Marxist Empire of Emperor Robert I."

[Naam]

BTW, I only know of one Thai electrician whom I would trust...he lives in Klaeng & he charges 300 Baht per hour (as he should).

is he the one who owns that chauffeur driven white Bently with ugly alloy wheels?

[klikster]

Have you got electric sockets and switches in your bathroom?

yes! because not all of us are paranoid Brits or Aussies whose wives go with their dryers to the kitchen or the living room to dry their hair instead of using the bathroom. some of us less paranoid ones don't like to brush their teeth or shave in the garden by using an external socket and most of us (less paranoid ones) do not use a toaster when having a shower or an electric hair dryer when sitting in a bath tub.

moreover, some of us have placed these sockets and switches in their bathrooms that no harm can come from them except when used by some brain-amputated person.

ROTFLMFAO! Good one!

[klikster]

BTW, I only know of one Thai electrician whom I would trust...he lives in Klaeng & he charges 300 Baht per hour (as he should).

I doubt if that electrician gets much work from the Thais.

I had an electrical pole "break". Concrete cracked and the pole bent with just the rebar holding it. The power lines from the roadside pole were sagging danderously. A Thai friend knew the electrical crew working at a large modern steel rolling mill nearby (20 km). Four men came out and replanted a new pole (already delivered). They came back the following evening to reroute the wire. I watched the work and they really did things right.

They rerouted the power lines and had to add about 10 meters (x2) with a splice. They also recharged 2 air conditioning units. When the work was finished, the supervisor asked me if Bt 3,000 was too expensive.

[klikster]

Connections that are not soldered or in an approved connector are not permitted in an electrical installation.

Soldered connections have higher electrical resistance (the solder is mostly lead) than sound mechanical connections (copper or aluminum), and aluminum doesn't solder so well.

[klikster]

Have you got electric sockets and switches in your bathroom?

yes! because not all of us are paranoid Brits or Aussies whose wives go with their dryers to the kitchen or the living room to dry their hair instead of using the bathroom. some of us less paranoid ones don't like to brush their teeth or shave in the garden by using an external socket and most of us (less paranoid ones) do not use a toaster when having a shower or an electric hair dryer when sitting in a bath tub.

moreover, some of us have placed these sockets and switches in their bathrooms that no harm can come from them except when used by some brain-amputated person.

Damnation. Your bathroom looks bigger than my room!

[klikster]

I don't like them and would not personally use them in Thailand - My reasoning relates to what Crossy has said about US Domestic Power Systems - The US Voltage is 115 either side of Ground - The Thai Voltage is 220V above Ground. This is a significant difference and as you say these devices are designed for use on 110V circuits.

I would therefore throw them in the bin and use wiring termination boxes suited to the voltage.

Untaped wire nuts are prone to corrosion, especially if dissimilar metals are involved.

[Naam]

Have you got electric sockets and switches in your bathroom?

yes! because not all of us are paranoid Brits or Aussies whose wives go with their dryers to the kitchen or the living room to dry their hair instead of using the bathroom. some of us less paranoid ones don't like to brush their teeth or shave in the garden by using an external socket and most of us (less paranoid ones) do not use a toaster when having a shower or an electric hair dryer when sitting in a bath tub.

moreover, some of us have placed these sockets and switches in their bathrooms that no harm can come from them except when used by some brain-amputated person.

Damnation. Your bathroom looks bigger than my room!

one is my wife's bathroom, mine is much smaller (the one with the black granite top) and quite functional. didn't you know that wives live in their bathrooms? mine surely does!

edited for addendum:

I HATE FEMALES IN MY BATHROOM! THEY MIX UP EVERYTHING, CAUSE DISORDER and are only tolerated to clean it, change towels and take my things from the laundry bucket for washing.

Edited December 14, 2007 by Naam

[GuestHouse]

BTW, I only know of one Thai electrician whom I would trust...he lives in Klaeng & he charges 300 Baht per hour (as he should).

I doubt if that electrician gets much work from the Thais.

I had an electrical pole "break". Concrete cracked and the pole bent with just the rebar holding it. The power lines from the roadside pole were sagging danderously. A Thai friend knew the electrical crew working at a large modern steel rolling mill nearby (20 km). Four men came out and replanted a new pole (already delivered). They came back the following evening to reroute the wire. I watched the work and they really did things right.

They rerouted the power lines and had to add about 10 meters (x2) with a splice. They also recharged 2 air conditioning units. When the work was finished, the supervisor asked me if Bt 3,000 was too expensive.

Steady on Klickster, if word gets out that there are Thai electricians who do a good job, efficiently, on time and at a very reasonable cost it will undermine the message put out by some around here that we need an expat electrician at expat prices to save us from killing ourselves by electrocution.

[P76]

I plan to have one of those instant hot showers installed in the bathroom before my return to Thailand next month.

Those cold showers have got to go.

Are there some instructions to give the electrician?

[lopburi3]

Make very sure he installs a ground wire and that it actually is hooked up (hopefully as part of the electric run). There will be a RCD breaker on the unit if the normal Japanese type to help protect against shock but the ground is important. I would also have the wire running to the unit connected to another RCD, or house RCD, to provide a second level of protection and extend the unit protection to include the feed wires. Also be sure they use a dedicated breaker and wire large enough to support the current required.

I would ask him to show you the voltage from hot to neutral and ground (both should be the same 230v) (and neutral to ground should be zero) using a meter and test the built in RCD now and every few weeks.

[Crossy]

Make very sure he installs a ground wire and that it actually is hooked up (hopefully as part of the electric run). There will be a RCD breaker on the unit if the normal Japanese type to help protect against shock but the ground is important. I would also have the wire running to the unit connected to another RCD, or house RCD, to provide a second level of protection and extend the unit protection to include the feed wires. Also be sure they use a dedicated breaker and wire large enough to support the current required.

I would ask him to show you the voltage from hot to neutral and ground (both should be the same 230v) (and neutral to ground should be zero) using a meter and test the built in RCD now and every few weeks.

^^^ ABSOLUTELY!!!!! agree 100%

Edited December 14, 2007 by Crossy

[technocracy]

Well if Thailand is anything like Laos then the danger could be on either the Live or the Neutral!

When I was wiring my house I discovered to my misfortune that due to the lack of Neutral Earthing on the local supply to my house there was regularly current on the neutral. I took numerous belts from this! The thing was the current would come and go so sometimes I was working .. . nothing . . next socket . . . ARGHHH! The Neutral at one point actually had 220v on it!! Really!! Multimeter to Live - Ground . . 220v . . . Neutral - Ground . . . 220v!!!! Although the force of the shock was reduced since there was some grounding! Although this anomaly did occur after an outage which when the power came back it was this way . . . as much as they tried to tell me it was 'normal'!! The cheeky tossers were even questioning the wiring in the house! Which I assured them there was no issues there since I laid every cable personally.

Thankfully we have now got our own transformer on which I insisted they earthed the neutral properly (MEN) and have 0v constantly on the neutral! The high end powerline workers here in Laos are excellent (well they should be with the amount of power they flog to Thailand!) but the low domestic sparks are absolutely appalling!

[wpcoe]

Wow. I'm grateful for the various replies regarding the "wire nuts"!

I can see the potential for misusing the devices, such as too much exposed bare wire or not twisting enough ... or too much ... but feel a bit more comfortable about using them. I think I will look for ones here locally again. In the past the only place I saw them was in the ceiling fan installation kits.

Below is link to a very cheap screw on wire nut and rating is 600v. The problem with usage here by those not using them normally would be too much insulation removed and bare or nicked wire being exposed, or too loosely twisted and nut can slip off. A partial solution is to cover each nut with electrical tape but have seen the nuts for sale here recently so expect some electricians are starting to learn and use them.

http://www.goodmart.com/products/85228.htm

That site's picture seems to be what I have (in various sizes), though I'm not sure of the voltage rating of the ones I brought from the USA. I'm not sure what they mean by "Fixed, square-wire spring" as I've never seen a spring in one?

Thanks again for all the useful info!

[elkangorito]

Steady on Klickster, if word gets out that there are Thai electricians who do a good job, efficiently, on time and at a very reasonable cost it will undermine the message put out by some around here that we need an expat electrician at expat prices to save us from killing ourselves by electrocution.

Guesthouse,

In a bid to put an end to this futile debate, I wish to say a few things & make a suggestion or two. The below comments are not all directed at you.

1] I do not think that every Thai electrician is crap. It has been my experience for the past 2 years, that every Thai domestic electrical installation that I have seen (about 20 or so), has been complete & utter crap. That's a 100% hit rate so far. There have been no exceptions. This especially applies to the typical Thai "twist & tape" connections. I have NEVER seen a Thai electrician do otherwise.

2] From talking to my Thai colleagues at work (who teach "electrical" to students), they completely agree with me in that Thai electricians are "not good" (their words). We have had many talks about this & they are astounded by Australian regulations and realise the necessity for tighter regulatory control re electrical work. Most of these teachers have no idea about the detail of an earthed electrical system. I am the one who is teaching them this (for free).

3] Contrary to what you think, I do want a safer electrical system in Thailand FOR ALL! I did not spend 1.5 years contributing to this TV forum (and creating the "electrical" thread), only to be harrassed & harangued by a crazy few, who seem to think that electrical work is "easy...anyone with an ounce of common sense can do it". Famous last words. If my heart wasn't in this, I wouldn't be putting up a fight. The "fight" is, as usual, explaining ad infinitum to people who contest any form of advice...what is right & what is wrong. And how can you teach physics/maths/chemistry/electrical etc to somebody who is not prepared to listen? The only thing in this case is to "let them be", which I invariably do after a good attempt at trying to send a message.

4] It may appear to you as if I'm after money. You couldn't be further from the truth. I do have a plan & it does involve many Thai people. Of course, I need to be commensurately paid. As far as TV is concerned, those who wish to argue will get nothing, unless the argument is a fair cop. Unfortunately for TV members, my knowledge is no longer free (certain conditions apply). I am, however, fully receptive to people who are in genuine need of assistance. I am open to negotiation.

5] As for those who "pretend" to know electrical work & post as such on TV, you are putting yourselves & others at risk. You also make it difficult for the people who do really know electrical work, to advise others correctly. For fux sake, if you are going to give electrical advice, make sure that it is correct. If in doubt, leave out. In addition, electrical "Rules & Regulations" are not things you can find on the internet. It is not simply a matter of "formulas".

6] If you know of any "good" Thai electricians, let us know. You have the energy to rave on about them. Now put your money where your mouth is. Who are they? Where are they? etc etc.

Guesthouse, you sound like a reasonable man. Let's put an end to this bickering & get about our business. It appears as though you have more than an inkling of electrical stuff. Use that knowledge to assist "us" (all of us), to prevent the false "experts" from spreading dangerous/incorrect information.

[GuestHouse]

I think we can manage to correct false information without negativity and without continual attacks on Thai electrical workmanship.

As I have said all along, there are plenty of good Thai electricians, we should absolutely be passing on their details to other members - We should not be denigrating all Thai electricians in order to promote our own business. - I say 'our' I do not sell electrical advice or help with electrical problems - I do that for free.

[elkangorito]

Looks like "peace talks" are going to be difficult.

Which side do you want...Palestine or Israel? Too late! I've chosen Palestine.

I think you can do better than that.

Edited December 14, 2007 by elkangorito

[cobra]

When I started out long ago I was working with an old Timer who when working or trouble shooting something hot would keep one hand in his pocket, (working only with the other free hand if the task permitted).

His reasoning being that in event of a contact you'd fair better going down the body to ground as opposed to across the chest which could be more lethal.

Edited December 14, 2007 by cobra

[technocracy]

I'll actually back this from my viewpoint here in Laos there the standard of work performed by basically ALL Laos domestic electricians is absolutely shocking!

I have never seen in any general domestic house anywhere where there have not twist & taped wires. Adding to this air con installers are equally as bad - since they'll come in an just connect them with a twist and tape! The tried to do that with the 2 larger 25000btu air cons in my house . . . they were quickly stopped and handed a pair of 30amp wire connectors. They were shocked they didn't have to cut the schuko plugs of 12000btu air cons since there were sockets waiting for them!

All of the sparks who looked at my installation (which is totally standards based and everything is earthed) has been amazed by it! They've never seen work as good!

In EVERY installation I have seen in Laos the general rule of thumb is put each room on a 30amp(!) breaker and have ALL sockets, lights, aircons on that one circuit! What exactly they think this achieves (except a possible death trap) I don't know! Oh this is normally with a 63amp main breaker connecting to a 10/40amp meter . . . tell me whats wrong with this situation!

It isn't just you get what you pay for as I've been into many BIG houses and houses whose owners have money and paid for the 'best' and the installs there are no different! Except a bit neater and cabling is actually run in conduit.

Now I am even being pestered by a few friends to rewire their houses now after they've seen mine. - something which I just don't have time (or inclination!) to do.

Like everything I am sure there is some good ones around like Thailand but you will need to hunt them down - unlike in say the UK or Oz where you know any work will be done to the correct standards.

[dotcom]

This is a great topic.

One should examine the type of electrical plugs in use around the world. Got to say the brits have the best plugs. They are big & ugly but they are heavy enough to do the work. Most are rated at 13 to 15 amps. Multiplied by 240 volts we come up with a maximum of 3600 watts. Second best (I have seen) are the Aussies who also use a 3 pronged spade. British are better because each plug contains a replaceable fuse.

I will promise you that no hair dryer sold in Thailand comes from the factory with a 3 pronged plug. 2 only. Thus they are not grounded. Ditto toasters etc. My Bosch drill doesn't need a ground because it's double insulated.

Now we come to Thailand. One of the biggest problems here is not using a heavy enough (gauge) wire. Sockets should be 2.5 mm. back to the load center (breaker box). Air cons etc should be 4 mm or above (6 mm is better).

Breakers (resettable) are fairly new in LOS. In the old days they used the screw in kind. There is one big reason that millions of Thais are not electrocuted every year. It is called a ground fault (Safety- Cut). Every house I have ever seen has them. They are fantastic. If you short live to neutral your breaker will go. Live to earth (ground) the safety cut will pop.

What you will see are guys coming out to weld your gate etc. In the back of the pick-up is the ewelding machine with a pair of 10 meter long 1.5 mm wires. These will have bare ends. These will get plugged into whatever. Stay far away unless you too want to be killed.

For the guy that watched a crew lengthen the overhead power wires by 10 meters, did they de-eneggize the system first? I am pretty brave & I work on hot circuits all the time but I would not like to work on overhead lines while they are "alive".

For the most part, Thai wiring is horrible. If you see something that is clearly unsafe - get the super to send someone to fix it. The Thai's aren't dumb. They will know why you want it changed & as long as you are paying why not? As pointed out before it costs peanuts. I strongly advise anyone to install a grounded system if you don't have it. My condo was built with a 3 wire system (grounded). Proper grounds & safety-cut will keep you from getting a shock.

[klikster]

5] As for those who "pretend" to know electrical work & post as such on TV, you are putting yourselves & others at risk. You also make it difficult for the people who do really know electrical work, to advise others correctly. For fux sake, if you are going to give electrical advice, make sure that it is correct. If in doubt, leave out. In addition, electrical "Rules & Regulations" are not things you can find on the internet. It is not simply a matter of "formulas".

Why don't you stop talking down to people you don't know a damned thing about.

I was doing "shop" electrical work in my late teens. I did most of the wiring (single and 3 phase) for my own metal shop .. press brakes, power shears, CNC punching machines. I know what I'm doing.

How do we know that you know what you are doing?

6] If you know of any "good" Thai electricians, let us know. You have the energy to rave on about them. Now put your money where your mouth is. Who are they? Where are they? etc etc.

Did you miss my post on the men who worked at the steel plant? Or was it more convenient for you to ignore it? Maybe you are such a d_ck they don't want to work for you.

Seems like you are doing most of the raving.

[klikster]

For the guy that watched a crew lengthen the overhead power wires by 10 meters, did they de-eneggize the system first? I am pretty brave & I work on hot circuits all the time but I would not like to work on overhead lines while they are "alive".

The power lines were sagging, but not broken.

First thing they did was have me flip the main breaker. Then they disconnect the lines from the meter. That was pretty easy .. insulated screwdriver and pulling the wires free of the terminals. Then they did all the re-routing, splicing, etc.

When the time came to reconnect the lines, they were very careful. The meter was about 3 -4 m above the ground. One guy climbed the pole (lengths of rebar wired to the bottoms of his boots), and another was on a ladder. It was dark by the time they connected to the meter .. which was hot.

At one point they got pretty nervous as the wire was almost too large for the terminals on the meter. They had a couple of false starts .. then made some exclamations that probably translated as "relief" when the last terminal screw was tight.

The guys who really know their business are the "hot stick gangs" that work on high voltage transmission lines. One of my buddies did that for awhile and he has some pretty creepy stories about corona, etc.

But I seriously doubt if there is anyone of that calibre posting in this thread ..

Edited December 16, 2007 by klikster

[elkangorito]

Just because the car starts when you get it back from the mechanic, does not mean that a "good job" was done. This is particularly important with electrical work.

And yes, I do know what I am talking about, although I didn't do "shop" electrical work (whatever that means).

I do recall a thread that was closed...basically because of people who insisted that they were right & others were wrong. Not that I like to say this but this is always the case...people who know sweet F.A. suddenly have ALL the (dangerous) electrical answers.

It is so easy to give wrong (& dangerous information). When someone who knows what they are talking about comes along, a fight ensues. The next question is, "How do I know an expert from a twit?" Well, all you have to do is ask & then you can make your own mind up.

At this rate, all the people who do actually know something will just give up & disappear. Of course, then it's every man for himself.