Why Chiang Mai?

[T_Dog]

Here is the website to go to for Thailand Air Quality. Hopefully the air will be better this year, as I coughed a lot last year. Bad thing is, the PM10 particulates cause cancer so you might not know it is affecting you for quite a while. Education is needed so that people don't set forest fires at will and burn leaves.

http://www.pcd.go.th/AirQuality/Regional/G...?task=graphsite

You can probably use that website to find out when it was the worst last year.

[Nienke]

Drove back home yesterday and again the grass verges of the roads at the 121 intersection with 1317 and the part on the 121 between 1006 and 1317, were first cut with a grass cutter and then set on fire. Lots of thick smoke.

Nienke

[Mapguy]

The really bad weeks were in March 2007. And they WERE brutal for air pollution. It is not normally that bad, but it never good in that season given traditional practices and modern economic growth.

Want to keep track? Go to << http://www.pcd.go.th/AirQuality/Regional/Default.cfm >>. The site is easy to figure out. There are TWO sampling stations in Chiang Mai, one for Chiang Mai generally (I don't know where it is located) and one at Yuparaj School in the center of the old city. Compare those readings with others on a daily basis. It is interesting that Khon Kaen (on a high flat plain) in Issan country seems to be quite healthy much of the time as well as seaside venues.

Last year, Chiang Mai, Mae Song and Chiang Rai provinces, I believe, were officially called "disaster areas." And with good cause. The incidence of respiratory ailments skyrocketed. Some people --- the very young, the very old and those with respiratory diseases or allergies --- were at very, very serious risk. How bad was it? You literally could not see Doi Suthep from the canal road! No joke!

All that finally woke up the Chiang Mai "Chamber of Commerce!" At least for a while. The tourist business fell off enormously. And deservedly so. Some commercial interests were rumored to have really put the pressure on authorities and the press to play down the problem, but they were not successful. The brutal air did them in. There was no place to hide! Occupancy rates plummeted in the first quarter and into the second quarter of 2007. Anyway, some hotels got what they deserved. For example, Hotel Lotus Pang Suan Kaew's incinerator was notorious for spewing out ugly black clouds of smoke from the trash it burned. Talk to many local residents about burning trash, and I suspect most will just shrug their shoulders.

There is a plan developed and announced by several governmental agencies and academic types in the area to alleviate the pollution, which comes from several sources, some normal and some (last year) abnormal, but IMO, it is highly questionable that the plan will be effective. There are a few basic reasons to worry about that. First, it is the geography of the place. Prevailing southerly winds during that season bring in industrial (and rural agracultural) pollution from the south into a relatively narrow bowl between two sets of surrounding hills/mountains. The centuries-old practices of burning off fields, undergrowth and trash and the increasing modern density of petroleum-burning vehicles of all types in this area exascerbate the the situation enormously, especially dues to the types of fuel used AND because there is no enforcement to get "smokers" (vehicles with faulty engines and exhaust systems) off the road. Which leads me to a final and arguably the most significant reason to suggest: there is a plan BUT, given the miserable law enforcement habits of city and provincial authorities, some more extreme annual pollution events must follow. Otherwise, the "normal rate" of pollution is --- except for the lame of lung --- gradual and simply insidious . You discover it when you visit your friendly cancer specialist.

The reticence to really fix such problems is not inherently Thai. Japan not many years ago had really brutal air pollution. The USA as well. Anyone care to comment on the "killer fog" in London in the 1950s which killed hundreds?

Oh yes, the abnormal weather event of last year. There was a high pressure system over SW China that persistently "trapped" the polluted air over northern Thailand that was further complicated by an apparently high rate of forest fires in Burma to the west of Thailand. A real climatologist will give you all of the details.

There was one "funny" story that I recall. The Burmese regional military commander just across the border was apparently incensed that the pollution was so bad one day that he could not fly from one airfield to another. So, he drove north, arresting several scores of farmers burning their fields en route to his destination. A bit drastic? Of course. But enforcement will ultimately have to be tough in Thailand --- and elsewhere. The enemy is us!

One last irony in a land with people who so revere the king. The king, an extremely thoughtful and intelligent man, has stressed for years the dangers of pollution to Thailand and to the world. A major highlight of last year's celebration of his 60-year reign was a focus on his environmental improvement activities. Wouldn't it be truly meaningful to respect him by following his advice and example rather than practicing the superficial habit of wearing his natal color!

[KevinHunt]

The really bad weeks were in March 2007. And they WERE brutal for air pollution. It is not normally that bad, but it never good in that season given traditional practices and modern economic growth.

Want to keep track? Go to << http://www.pcd.go.th/AirQuality/Regional/Default.cfm >>. The site is easy to figure out. There are TWO sampling stations in Chiang Mai, one for Chiang Mai generally (I don't know where it is located) and one at Yuparaj School in the center of the old city. Compare those readings with others on a daily basis. It is interesting that Khon Kaen (on a high flat plain) in Issan country seems to be quite healthy much of the time as well as seaside venues.

Last year, Chiang Mai, Mae Song and Chiang Rai provinces, I believe, were officially called "disaster areas." And with good cause. The incidence of respiratory ailments skyrocketed. Some people --- the very young, the very old and those with respiratory diseases or allergies --- were at very, very serious risk. How bad was it? You literally could not see Doi Suthep from the canal road! No joke!

All that finally woke up the Chiang Mai "Chamber of Commerce!" At least for a while. The tourist business fell off enormously. And deservedly so. Some commercial interests were rumored to have really put the pressure on authorities and the press to play down the problem, but they were not successful. The brutal air did them in. There was no place to hide! Occupancy rates plummeted in the first quarter and into the second quarter of 2007. Anyway, some hotels got what they deserved. For example, Hotel Lotus Pang Suan Kaew's incinerator was notorious for spewing out ugly black clouds of smoke from the trash it burned. Talk to many local residents about burning trash, and I suspect most will just shrug their shoulders.

There is a plan developed and announced by several governmental agencies and academic types in the area to alleviate the pollution, which comes from several sources, some normal and some (last year) abnormal, but IMO, it is highly questionable that the plan will be effective. There are a few basic reasons to worry about that. First, it is the geography of the place. Prevailing southerly winds during that season bring in industrial (and rural agracultural) pollution from the south into a relatively narrow bowl between two sets of surrounding hills/mountains. The centuries-old practices of burning off fields, undergrowth and trash and the increasing modern density of petroleum-burning vehicles of all types in this area exascerbate the the situation enormously, especially dues to the types of fuel used AND because there is no enforcement to get "smokers" (vehicles with faulty engines and exhaust systems) off the road. Which leads me to a final and arguably the most significant reason to suggest: there is a plan BUT, given the miserable law enforcement habits of city and provincial authorities, some more extreme annual pollution events must follow. Otherwise, the "normal rate" of pollution is --- except for the lame of lung --- gradual and simply insidious . You discover it when you visit your friendly cancer specialist.

The reticence to really fix such problems is not inherently Thai. Japan not many years ago had really brutal air pollution. The USA as well. Anyone care to comment on the "killer fog" in London in the 1950s which killed hundreds?

Oh yes, the abnormal weather event of last year. There was a high pressure system over SW China that persistently "trapped" the polluted air over northern Thailand that was further complicated by an apparently high rate of forest fires in Burma to the west of Thailand. A real climatologist will give you all of the details.

There was one "funny" story that I recall. The Burmese regional military commander just across the border was apparently incensed that the pollution was so bad one day that he could not fly from one airfield to another. So, he drove north, arresting several scores of farmers burning their fields en route to his destination. A bit drastic? Of course. But enforcement will ultimately have to be tough in Thailand --- and elsewhere. The enemy is us!

One last irony in a land with people who so revere the king. The king, an extremely thoughtful and intelligent man, has stressed for years the dangers of pollution to Thailand and to the world. A major highlight of last year's celebration of his 60-year reign was a focus on his environmental improvement activities. Wouldn't it be truly meaningful to respect him by following his advice and example rather than practicing the superficial habit of wearing his natal color!

I'm sorry, I got lost. Could somebody please direct me to the '3 great reasons for staying in Chiang Mai' thread.

[mcgriffith]

I'm sorry, I got lost. Could somebody please direct me to the '3 great reasons for staying in Chiang Mai' thread.

[Greenside]

1. Excellent arts and music scene.

2. Good travel connections.

3. Wonderful countryside within easy reach.

[swain]

a. Cheap cost of living, and though some are in denial about this, the cost of housing is going down. We go to village after village and people are selling their houses for less and less. We have bought two houses now with no money down and payments that are so low that they could be the cost of rent.

b. Good mixture of western life, thai culture, and nature just outside of town.

c. Climate cool nights easy days.... lived in Bangkok for two years... too hot, moist, and loud.

If Chiang Mai can get their field burning problem under control it would be on the top of my list of places to live. But now I have to leave 2-3 months out of the year because of this problem. I would NOT recommend people relocating here until its under control.. We have a house down near the beach... so we can escape... if you are on a limited budget and cant afford the escape, I would wait and see if we can get this under control.

I am enjoying all the reasons people are giving to live in Chiang Mai but I must ask a rather amature question. When are the 2-3 months out of the year when the burning takes place, and what effect does that have? And what beach do you escape to during this time?

There is a crew of people that have a lot invested in Chiang Mai, houses for sale or rent, as well as businesses. They will sugar coat Chiang Mai for their own personal reasons. I say this because if the burning is not controlled Chiang Mai will not be a safe place to live. We have had amazingly serious air conditions here, hmyhjmhh c x sorry about that ... that was my 7 month old weighing in on the subject.

Dont get me wrong I love Chiang Mai... this is where I WANT what to live.

The question is can I LIVE here.

[Ulysses G.]

There is a crew of people that have a lot invested in Chiang Mai, houses for sale or rent, as well as businesses. They will sugar coat Chiang Mai for their own personal reasons.

I own a business in Chiang Mai, but I am not "sugar coating" anything. The air here almost never bothers me even though I feel quite uncomfortable in heavily polluted cities like Manilla. Peace Blondie - the super-moderator - also feels fine here and doesn't even have any property or businessses that he is "secretly" protecting.

Edited December 22, 2007 by Ulysses G.

[PeaceBlondie]

Some of us are simply reporting our own personal experiences, super or not, positive or not. Did we get an answer on that reporting station on Sukumvit in BKK always having worse air than the worst month in Chiang Mai?

Lovely place, Chiang Mai. In some ways it reminds me of my first days in Austin, 1979. Not too big, still pretending to be small, huge artist and music scene, special people, open minded, not too busy to enjoy life.

[KevinHunt]

a. Cheap cost of living, and though some are in denial about this, the cost of housing is going down. We go to village after village and people are selling their houses for less and less. We have bought two houses now with no money down and payments that are so low that they could be the cost of rent.

b. Good mixture of western life, thai culture, and nature just outside of town.

c. Climate cool nights easy days.... lived in Bangkok for two years... too hot, moist, and loud.

If Chiang Mai can get their field burning problem under control it would be on the top of my list of places to live. But now I have to leave 2-3 months out of the year because of this problem. I would NOT recommend people relocating here until its under control.. We have a house down near the beach... so we can escape... if you are on a limited budget and cant afford the escape, I would wait and see if we can get this under control.

I am enjoying all the reasons people are giving to live in Chiang Mai but I must ask a rather amature question. When are the 2-3 months out of the year when the burning takes place, and what effect does that have? And what beach do you escape to during this time?

There is a crew of people that have a lot invested in Chiang Mai, houses for sale or rent, as well as businesses. They will sugar coat Chiang Mai for their own personal reasons. I say this because if the burning is not controlled Chiang Mai will not be a safe place to live. We have had amazingly serious air conditions here, hmyhjmhh c x sorry about that ... that was my 7 month old weighing in on the subject.

Dont get me wrong I love Chiang Mai... this is where I WANT what to live.

The question is can I LIVE here.

Sorry to interupt, but this was supposed to be about, what is GOOD about Chiang Mai. If you want to rant about the bad air, or whatever else that distresses you, start a thread of your own.

Actually, I only started this thread to highlight to those that don't live here, what the good points are, and what a great city Chiang Mai is.

It was also a tester to see how quickly it would turn negative. It didn't take long did it?

It's good isn't it? Ask about the best bars, and you get a list of places that are worth avoiding. Ask, what's so good about Chiang Mai, and you get a load of complaints. It's not about sugar-coating or closing your eyes, it's about appreciating and opening your eyes.

Here endeth todays sermon. ( I love these emoticons)

I also find that the air doesn't bother me too much. After a few hours running round a tennis court, I may notice a little dryness or a slight cough for an hour or so, but nothing that concerns me. A few hours in Bangkok would be much worse. Pure, clean air all year round would be great, but a couple of months of slight haze isn't enough to deter me from living in this fine city.

Interesting side-point - Isn't it great when smokers complain about the air-quality? They do it with such a straight face, I sometimes think they're not joking!!! By the way, I'm not an anti-smoker, I just find them funny.

[swain]

Some of us are simply reporting our own personal experiences, super or not, positive or not. Did we get an answer on that reporting station on Sukumvit in BKK always having worse air than the worst month in Chiang Mai?

Lovely place, Chiang Mai. In some ways it reminds me of my first days in Austin, 1979. Not too big, still pretending to be small, huge artist and music scene, special people, open minded, not too busy to enjoy life.

Ok... well your right 9 months out out of the year and I would agree with you guys Chiang Mai is the place to be... but those three months of burning are as bad if not worse than China when the coal burning gets out of hand, and Eugene Oregon when they burn the grass fields to stimulate the next seasons growth, (but this is only for two weeks out of the year) both of which I have seen first hand.

Come on guys at one point Chiang Mai was declared a disaster zone because of high levels of dust particles in the air. In any process you have to acknowledge there is a problem before you can solve it. I love it here.. lets NOT sweep this under the carpet.

I am NOT a smoker and I am not normally negative.. I LOVE CHIANG MAI... and LIVE HERE... but if this problem is not talked about and acted on the lack of tourists will be the least of our concerns.

Edited December 22, 2007 by swain

[Jingthing]

The bad air trumps it all for me. It kept me from moving there. It a deal killer.

But other than that:

Smaller town feel with big city amenities

Slower pace than Bangkok and friendlier people

It feels a lot more like the "real Thailand" than Pattaya, Bangkok, and Phuket

Edited December 22, 2007 by Jingthing

[Blinky Bill]

Sorry to interupt, but this was supposed to be about, what is GOOD about Chiang Mai. If you want to rant about the bad air, or whatever else that distresses you, start a thread of your own.

Actually, I only started this thread to highlight to those that don't live here, what the good points are, and what a great city Chiang Mai is.

It was also a tester to see how quickly it would turn negative. It didn't take long did it?

It's good isn't it? Ask about the best bars, and you get a list of places that are worth avoiding. Ask, what's so good about Chiang Mai, and you get a load of complaints. It's not about sugar-coating or closing your eyes, it's about appreciating and opening your eyes.

Here endeth todays sermon. ( I love these emoticons)

I also find that the air doesn't bother me too much. After a few hours running round a tennis court, I may notice a little dryness or a slight cough for an hour or so, but nothing that concerns me. A few hours in Bangkok would be much worse. Pure, clean air all year round would be great, but a couple of months of slight haze isn't enough to deter me from living in this fine city.

Interesting side-point - Isn't it great when smokers complain about the air-quality? They do it with such a straight face, I sometimes think they're not joking!!! By the way, I'm not an anti-smoker, I just find them funny.

Mister KHunt,

You are continuing to prove that you fit well into the category of dickheads with dumb posts. Of course you will get responses pointing out the bad along with the posts about the good points about Chiang Mai.

What's the good of a forum that shows only good things? Do you think there is not a seedier, villainous, underworld, dirtier side to life in Chiang Mai (not to mention almost anywhere in the world)?

Get real mate.

Come along to the Boxing Day bash at Tuskers on Wednesday so as you can share some more of your wisdom with us.

Edited December 23, 2007 by Blinky Bill

[KevinHunt]

Mister KHunt,

You are continuing to prove that you fit well into the category of dickheads with dumb posts. Of course you will get responses pointing out the bad along with the posts about the good points about Chiang Mai.

What's the good of a forum that shows only good things? Do you think there is not a seedier, villainous, underworld, dirtier side to life in Chiang Mai (not to mention almost anywhere in the world)?

Get real mate.

Come along to the Boxing Day bash at Tuskers on Wednesday so as you can share some more of your wisdom with us.

Thanks for the compliments.

I found myself agreeing with UG for once, and that's the thanks I get!!

Having a bad time with whingers lately, hence the post. Honestly though, these people would have us believe that we're all going around with gas masks on fior 3 months. I know some Americans do, but the fact that I can't see Doi Suthep doesn't bother me too much - It's 15KMs away, after all.

If I can sneak out on Boxing day I will. So long as I'm the only token &lt;deleted&gt;.

[Ulysses G.]

I found myself agreeing with UG for once, and that's the thanks I get!!

If you quit whining about it, I'll ask Blinky very nicely to not thrash you.

[cm-happy]

In addition what what many have already said about the pluss' of CM.

Lanna culture, design, art, architecture

Not just Thai and Lanna here, but Tribal as well(not just the peddlers around the Night bazaar)

people, as friendly as Isaan folk

good infrastructure, well maintained rds. Beautifull public landscaping and parks to enjoy

easy driving day trips,Hang Dong, Chiang Rai, Lampun, Lampang etc.

small town feel with big town amenities;

good restaurants, watering holes

nature, and natural surroundings

beautiful Temples and Wats

My b/f has instructed me to include good somTom and Tom yum

decent shopping for most things

Plane, bus, train availability

eye candy, both Female and Male

cool temperatures

adaquate rain fall

good health and dental care

shall I go on?

Edited December 23, 2007 by cm-happy

[mcgriffith]

In addition what what many have already said about the pluss' of CM.

Lanna culture, design, art, architecture

Not just Thai and Lanna here, but Tribal as well(not just the peddlers around the Night bazaar)

people, as friendly as Isaan folk

good infrastructure, well maintained rds. Beautifull public landscaping and parks to enjoy

easy driving day trips,Hang Dong, Chiang Rai, Lampun, Lampang etc.

small town feel with big town amenities;

good restaurants, watering holes

nature, and natural surroundings

beautiful Temples and Wats

My b/f has instructed me to include good somTom and Tom yum

decent shopping for most things

Plane, bus, train availability

eye candy, both Female and Male

cool temperatures

adaquate rain fall

good health and dental care

shall I go on?

Very well said, but please don't go on.

We don't want too many folks living in the other parts of Thailand, which they have convinced themselves are the best, moving here.

[chobthum]

It was started by a coup de coeur...

to simply fall in love of this town

and now our familly just call it our Home.

[ThaiPauly]

1.Sunshine

2.Inexpensive

3.People

not in any particular order

[chiang mai]

Pluses:

1) The Dukes and the Rimping Supermarket chain

2) Good quality healthcare

3) Scenery

Minuses:

1) February

2) March

3) April

Edited December 27, 2007 by chiang mai

[Ulysses G.]

Minuses:

1) February

2) March

3) April

Don't forget May which is still blistering hot!

[chiang mai]

Minuses:

1) February

2) March

3) April

Don't forget May which is still blistering hot!

And September and October when the City gets flooded. Actually just thought of another plus point, a superbly convenient location for an airport, right down town, it means you can be somewhere else in next to no time during the months of, let me see now, Feb, Mar, Apr, May, Sept & Oct.

Now before everyone jumps on me for the above, let's be clear, I love Chiang Mai, have many good friends there (until now, possibly) and I love to visit the city. But its location does have some draw backs.

[Ulysses G.]

It only gets flooded every once in a while and usually most people are not affected.

[hp8000]

Not living in the city but ~30km outside outside a small town I can say :

1. No foreigner in sight but a nice view of the mountains.

2. No noise apart the usual dogs and frogs, the local temple

3. A lot of friendly thai people sharing my days.

And a lot more, but the topic only asks for 3 reasons.

[Rinrada]

Now that Mr T is back in .................errr ...Chiang Mai should take off again..............

[scotbeve]

I imagine every big town was a small town once. Change is bound to happen. Some changes good and some bad. Chiang Mai has both good and bad changes. For people who think it has grown a bit, they can easily take a tour of smaller cities such as Lamphun to get that nostalgic feeling again.

For me, I think it's perfect. Everything I had back in the USA I have here but at a fraction of the cost. Internet TV, ADSL, shopping, movies, education, night life and culture. The only thing I don't have is a large group of American's patting themselves on the back thinking they are the worlds best nation running around to different parts of the planet and saying, "aren't you glad you have me as your friend?".

In a nutshell, I have found peace.

I said that some 27 years ago when I moved to Thailand, 19 of which in Chiang Mai province. Great place folks, still is too!

[Ulysses G.]

The only thing I don't have is a large group of American's patting themselves on the back thinking they are the worlds best nation running around to different parts of the planet and saying, "aren't you glad you have me as your friend?".

The "I'm so cool, I hate America" crowd isn't much better, but fanatics of all stripes are to be avoided.

[Rasseru]

The only thing I don't have is a large group of American's patting themselves on the back thinking they are the worlds best nation running around to different parts of the planet and saying, "aren't you glad you have me as your friend?".

The "I'm so cool, I hate America" crowd isn't much better, but fanatics of all stripes are to be avoided.

Quite right. One much prefers those who leave out the "I'm so cool" part.

[scotbeve]

The only thing I don't have is a large group of American's patting themselves on the back thinking they are the worlds best nation running around to different parts of the planet and saying, "aren't you glad you have me as your friend?".

The "I'm so cool, I hate America" crowd isn't much better, but fanatics of all stripes are to be avoided.

Others to be avoided are the ones who wave their own flag whilst living in a host country and live in the "bubble - type - world" under the premise that " The natives are revolting".

[Ulysses G.]

The only thing I don't have is a large group of American's patting themselves on the back thinking they are the worlds best nation running around to different parts of the planet and saying, "aren't you glad you have me as your friend?".

The "I'm so cool, I hate America" crowd isn't much better, but fanatics of all stripes are to be avoided.

Quite right. One much prefers those who leave out the "I'm so cool" part.

Isn't there a bounty on wise-ass Canadians right now?