Road To Doi Saket

[Crow Boy]

Yeah, I'm with you CB. Same here. Wish I could change things (my thing), but realize you have to get with the Thai program or perish. And even still maybe perish! I came here and only rode tuk tuks n rot daengs for the first 6 mo's so that I could observe how they drive and get a feeling for it. I was especially trying to understand what it must be like to drive on the wrong side of the road. By the time I finally took to my Honda Wave I was ready. I still got caught in a couple near misses as I learned the finer points of the road - the ones you can only learn by getting out there and driving. In the first couple mo's I had maybe 3 incidents, all small. I learned n thought alot about what happened/ almost happened, and now 4 yrs with nothing else.

I believe that it is a definite process of learning here and also it is different to other parts. I found riding in Bangkok really scary until I got into the flow of it. The speed of the traffic is what takes makes it so hard - make a mistake in Bangkok and you are going to be seriously hurt. There may be three lanes painted on the road but there will be five lanes of traffic with the two in the middle going in opposite directions.

As some of you guys will remember I had an accident about six months ago and I thought this really sucks, first accident in over 25 years and a stupid one for all that. Every day I go into and out of town on the San Kamphaeng main road, I cross that point where I got hit and one day I stopped and walked through what happened and realised that I had made a serious error. The pickup had pulled out of a restaurant on my left so I maintained speed and moved to the right, he then without bothering to use his indicator turned right as I was along side of him. His problem was that by ME not following the Thai way which is to slow down and make room I had done something he didn't expect which was to move around him. My bike is a lot faster than the normal Wave type bike - I wasn't speeding but my riding style didn't fit the normal for Thailand situation. He was in the wrong by doing the initial Left and then Right but that is what they do. I was in the wrong by not preparing for him to do an unexpected right turn in front of my bike. Consequently I got hit, the bike got a bit messed up, I got battered and bruised, and then I learned. Quite seriously the accident could have been much worse. At the time it happened I couldn't understand why the police officer told me I was in the wrong by riding like a farung not a Thai. He was quite serious and I understand much more than I thought I knew before.

I will add that after the 3rd one (wiping out on a curve by the moat after the flower watering truck had dripped the tiniest trail of h2o onto the dry but oily hot season streets) I went n got an amulet for protection. It's Thailand, figured it couldn't hurt. So either by me or amulet power, I've now managed to get with their flow and stay out of trouble for years! Knock on wood.

On Samuii there was a guy from Alaska - he had a claw mounted in gold on a chain around his neck. I asked him one day and he said that when he was leaving Alaska his mother gave it to him as a lucky amulet for when he was in Thailand. The claw is from a brown bear and were quite common near where his family live. He said it must be a really good amulet, because since living in Thailand and wearing it every day he hasn't even seen a brown bear let alone been attacked by one.

I have a shark tooth from the one that bit Rodney Fox, he still wears the big one on a chain and said after all these years every now and then he will get "bitten" by it. He wears it all the time and especially in the water just in case.

Maybe I need to buy a "Isuzu DMax" badge for a lucky charm

CB

[jackr]

everyone knows that on the road you need to care about what is in front of you,

CB

I guess the motorcycle companies and car companies are putting the rear view and side view mirrors on the vehicles just so they can sell mirrors.

They are there so you can check if it is safe to change lanes. The same applies for turning into traffic. Look before you go. If you can't get out because of too much traffic then inch your way out until someone stops and hope no one hits you in the process. Don't just go out in traffic when you are coming from a side road at 10 km per hour into traffic that is traveling 85 km per hour.

Ok let me make it clear - to everyone who is THAI here what is in front of you is what you need to care about. They all do it and know that every other rider and driver is doing the same thing. They concentrate on what is happening in front of them.

As a farung with more than 40 years of almost daily motorcycle riding experience I don't think I need you to tell me how to ride. I know how to ride in the West but more importantly I know how to ride here. That said I still look and ride very defensively - where Thais come unstuck is when they have foreigners doing "weird western" things on the road.

I believe that on average the Thai motorist and motorcyclist is much better skilled and more aware of what is going on around than than their counterpart in the West. Don't believe me - then at age 12 stick three friends on a motor scooter and set them off in peak hour traffic in a country/city of your choice and see how long they last. I used to be the Secretary of a National Motorcycle Organisation and sent a series of photographs back for publication in the club magazine with the article "so you think you can ride?" the photograph that blew most readers away was the one with three young girls riding a Honda Wave, the two passengers were sitting side saddle, one eating noodles out of a bowl and the other talking on a mobile. Peak hour traffic in Bangkok - Casey Stoner probably couldn't do it - can you? Oh and before you answer - yes I tried it and it is not easy but I managed. Got a lot of laughs but I certainly lacked the natural Thai grace and skill.

CB

You've been drinking again haven't you!

I see what you're getting at but I'd say it's more 'adapting' than skill my learned friend. The lack of talent and grace on the roads here is mind-boggling and the dog-eat-dog mentality is ubiquitous. Sure, you need to drive their way to a certain extent and be more vigilant in picking your windows but the general awareness stinks. Saying that, doing the roll-on, roll-off ferry on a bike in Songkhla during rush hour is a real buzz and no doubt most westerners could handle it...

[Rasseru]

I believe that on average the Thai motorist and motorcyclist is much better skilled and more aware of what is going on around than than their counterpart in the West. Don't believe me - then at age 12 stick three friends on a motor scooter and set them off in peak hour traffic in a country/city of your choice and see how long they last. I used to be the Secretary of a National Motorcycle Organisation and sent a series of photographs back for publication in the club magazine with the article "so you think you can ride?" the photograph that blew most readers away was the one with three young girls riding a Honda Wave, the two passengers were sitting side saddle, one eating noodles out of a bowl and the other talking on a mobile. Peak hour traffic in Bangkok - Casey Stoner probably couldn't do it - can you? Oh and before you answer - yes I tried it and it is not easy but I managed. Got a lot of laughs but I certainly lacked the natural Thai grace and skill.

While we are on the subject of three-up riding on scooters, does anyone know whether this is an issue with the enforcers of traffic regulations here in Chiangmai and, if so, how big an issue? See a fair number of Thais doing it, but then you also see a fair number of Thais riding without helmets and I know there are crackdowns on that from time to time, so it occurs to me that there may be crackdowns on three-up riding too. Is there a fine? Anyone know what it is?

[Rasseru]

. . . . .

You've been drinking again haven't you! . . . 0

There is no safer bet.

[Donnyboy]

I believe that on average the Thai motorist and motorcyclist is much better skilled and more aware of what is going on around than than their counterpart in the West. Don't believe me - then at age 12 stick three friends on a motor scooter and set them off in peak hour traffic in a country/city of your choice and see how long they last. I used to be the Secretary of a National Motorcycle Organisation and sent a series of photographs back for publication in the club magazine with the article "so you think you can ride?" the photograph that blew most readers away was the one with three young girls riding a Honda Wave, the two passengers were sitting side saddle, one eating noodles out of a bowl and the other talking on a mobile. Peak hour traffic in Bangkok - Casey Stoner probably couldn't do it - can you? Oh and before you answer - yes I tried it and it is not easy but I managed. Got a lot of laughs but I certainly lacked the natural Thai grace and skill.

While we are on the subject of three-up riding on scooters, does anyone know whether this is an issue with the enforcers of traffic regulations here in Chiangmai and, if so, how big an issue? See a fair number of Thais doing it, but then you also see a fair number of Thais riding without helmets and I know there are crackdowns on that from time to time, so it occurs to me that there may be crackdowns on three-up riding too. Is there a fine? Anyone know what it is?

I dont think Ive ever seen any scooter stopped for having 3 on it.

I seen the crackdowns on the helmets but not much else.

[Donnyboy]

. . . . .

You've been drinking again haven't you! . . . 0

There is no safer bet.

[Crow Boy]

While we are on the subject of three-up riding on scooters, does anyone know whether this is an issue with the enforcers of traffic regulations here in Chiangmai and, if so, how big an issue? See a fair number of Thais doing it, but then you also see a fair number of Thais riding without helmets and I know there are crackdowns on that from time to time, so it occurs to me that there may be crackdowns on three-up riding too. Is there a fine? Anyone know what it is?

I just went down the road to my police neighbour and he was surprised by the question. There is no problem with three up but the law says all must wear a helmet. Small children are exempt from the helmet law because the doctors believe that the weight of the helmet may cause more damage (next trauma) on a small child than not wearing one.

CB

[Crow Boy]

I believe that on average the Thai motorist and motorcyclist is much better skilled and more aware of what is going on around than than their counterpart in the West. Don't believe me - then at age 12 stick three friends on a motor scooter and set them off in peak hour traffic in a country/city of your choice and see how long they last. I used to be the Secretary of a National Motorcycle Organisation and sent a series of photographs back for publication in the club magazine with the article "so you think you can ride?" the photograph that blew most readers away was the one with three young girls riding a Honda Wave, the two passengers were sitting side saddle, one eating noodles out of a bowl and the other talking on a mobile. Peak hour traffic in Bangkok - Casey Stoner probably couldn't do it - can you? Oh and before you answer - yes I tried it and it is not easy but I managed. Got a lot of laughs but I certainly lacked the natural Thai grace and skill.

You've been drinking again haven't you!

Moi?

I see what you're getting at but I'd say it's more 'adapting' than skill my learned friend. The lack of talent and grace on the roads here is mind-boggling and the dog-eat-dog mentality is ubiquitous. Sure, you need to drive their way to a certain extent and be more vigilant in picking your windows but the general awareness stinks. Saying that, doing the roll-on, roll-off ferry on a bike in Songkhla during rush hour is a real buzz and no doubt most westerners could handle it...

I still stand by my statement, the Thai motorcycle rider has grown up on motorbikes whereas the average western rider starts when they are about 16 years old. I was very lucky because I grew up on a sheep cattle station and got my first bike (Honda PeeWee50) for Christmas when I was 6 years old, I progressed through a variety of bikes and cars/pickups on the property and was a good rider/driver before I could legally go on the road. I fell off (sometimes spectacularly) and learned the skill set of hands and feet doing different things at the same time. I know riders in the west who took a lot of time when they started to ride as adults and had to learn how to use a hand and foot brake in tandem but using different pressures to compensate for road conditions. How to coordinate the throttle and clutch and gear levers. Driving a car is a doddle compared to riding a bike and in the west the average driver seems to jump into the car turn on ignition, turn up stereo, turn off brain and then drive totally oblivious to anything around them. Here the majority of car drivers can and do ride bikes it is unusual to find a person in Thailand who cannot ride a bike. In the west bike riders are the definite minority and consequently in the west drivers are totally unaware of where and what bikes can do. They don't allow for the superior breaking capability or handling of a bike. I have ridden large capacity ie more than 750cc motorbikes for more than 20 years as my normal mode of transport. I have had three Harley's and every time some idiot has cut me off or run down a friend the driver invariably uses the excuse "I didn't see him" I nearly got swiped by a girl in a Hyundai on my Harley and she said 'sorry didn't see you" I told her that not only was my bike the same size as her car but the motor was bigger. She was totally bemused and thought it funny that she had nearly managed to kill me. She only discovered I was right next to her when I used my left fist to smack her driver's side window.

CB

[Rasseru]

While we are on the subject of three-up riding on scooters, does anyone know whether this is an issue with the enforcers of traffic regulations here in Chiangmai and, if so, how big an issue? See a fair number of Thais doing it, but then you also see a fair number of Thais riding without helmets and I know there are crackdowns on that from time to time, so it occurs to me that there may be crackdowns on three-up riding too. Is there a fine? Anyone know what it is?

I just went down the road to my police neighbour and he was surprised by the question. There is no problem with three up but the law says all must wear a helmet. Small children are exempt from the helmet law because the doctors believe that the weight of the helmet may cause more damage (next trauma) on a small child than not wearing one.

CB

Many thanks for that, CB.

[Rasseru]

. . . In the west bike riders are the definite minority and consequently in the west drivers are totally unaware of where and what bikes can do. They don't allow for the superior breaking capability . . . of a bike. . . .

Agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post, but think it odd to suggest that bikes are better than cars at breaking things.

[Crow Boy]

. . . In the west bike riders are the definite minority and consequently in the west drivers are totally unaware of where and what bikes can do. They don't allow for the superior breaking capability . . . of a bike. . . .

Agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post, but think it odd to suggest that bikes are better than cars at breaking things.

Oops misspelling alert, should have been written as braking (retard motion, reduce speed) not breaking (to damage)

CB

[Greenside]

I was driving along yesterday, getting slightly miffed because the pickup in front of me had been straddling both lanes for the last kilometer and I was wanting to pass (on the outside, naturally ) when the car behind me, fed up with waiting half a minute more, decided it would pass us both on the inside. The guy in front of me swerved to the outside lane and the car passed without incident but I got to thinking that there were potentially three accidents in that scenario, possibly all because the pickup driver was simply putting more distance between him and the side of the road in the knowledge that someone was likely to shoot out of a soi without looking or in the belief that the gods would see him right.

I've followed this thread from the start and to the apolgists for the Asian driving system, I'd have to say I disagree that it has any features worth preserving and that just a tad of basic education (and enforcement) of road rules would reduce the casualty rate hugely. On the same note I was pleased to see a TV ad the other day promoting lane discipline (or so my girlfriend explained it) - anyone noticed any other attempts to improve standards?

One last thing which I find a bit worrying. Now that both underpasses on the superhighway are now open allowing the traffic to move freely and increasingly quickly, it's only a matter of time before we see a really bad accident due to the large number of places where vehicles have to U-turn or otherwise cross what is essentially now a freeway.

Edited December 30, 2007 by Greenside

[sabaijai]

if you don't adapt to the Thai way of driving/riding you either have to stay off the roads or you will have an accident.

[Greenside]

if you don't adapt to the Thai way of driving/riding you either have to stay off the roads or you will have an accident.

What does that mean? Take it into consideration or adopt the same tactics? Are you suggesting that I should have passed this guy on the inside as many Thai's might also have done and run the increased risk of hitting an emerging driver?

Understand their style (if it is indeed a style rather than as I suspect, simply one step up from highway anarchy) and drive defensively is my aim but thanks for the warning if you were referring to my post .

[sabaijai]

if you don't adapt to the Thai way of driving/riding you either have to stay off the roads or you will have an accident.

What does that mean? Take it into consideration or adopt the same tactics? Are you suggesting that I should have passed this guy on the inside as many Thai's might also have done and run the increased risk of hitting an emerging driver?

Understand their style (if it is indeed a style rather than as I suspect, simply one step up from highway anarchy) and drive defensively is my aim but thanks for the warning if you were referring to my post .

I was referring to Crow Boy's post. I see your point as well. Understanding and adapting doesn't necessarily mean imitating every move -- there's no single unified set of moves anyway, just general principles. But Thais tell me that they do expect farang drivers to live up to a 'higher' standard, e.g., I'm told that even though most Thais (in Chiang Mai anyway, Bangkok's a different story) may not use their indicator lights, Thais get miffed if a farang driver doesn't use them.

[BlissfullyIgnorant]

Back on topic (man can you lot stray)

I was driving past the scene of the accident today, and noticed that they've now closed off that particular U-turn spot with those large red/white plastic barriers. Knee-jerk, or something else?

[Flatouthruthefog]

Back on topic (man can you lot stray)

I was driving past the scene of the accident today, and noticed that they've now closed off that particular U-turn spot with those large red/white plastic barriers. Knee-jerk, or something else?

Yes, please allow me to steer you folks back onto the topic - fascinating tho the debate has been. First, the knee-jerk-reaction plastic barriers at the junction in question didn't last long and vanished over a week ago.

The police have charged the motorcycle rider with reckless driving and thrown him in the slammer until the case goes to court, which could be 6 months away. He is Burmese so a greater runaway risk than average.

The bus driver has been cautioned that he may be similarly charged and the company has put him on internal chores at the CM depot until he is cleared - or not. The owner of the company and his staff man who deals with legal subjects have expressed amazement and gratitude that a witness has come forward squarely putting the blame on the motorcyclist. "Most people ignore this sort of thing and disappear" they say.

They DID notice that no-one on the bus made a complaint about the driver, not even the 4 FRENCH tourists who had cuts and bruises. Knowing a little about French tourists, I'd have thought they would most certainly have complained if they felt it valid.

The police and the bus company carefully noted, having walked into it through the windscreen while it was still on its side, that the bus was in 4th gear on the 6 speed box, showing that he was NOT speeding. I estimate he was doing around 75 kph.

The driver of the yellow seelor partly crushed by the bus has made an amazing recovery and is out of hospital. Don't know about the young woman on the motorcycle.

Re the debate (which is healthy and maybe prompted because so many 'Thai factors' are to be seen here), the bus driver had a fraction of a second to react and it is too easy for us all to sit back with 20-20 hindsight and say he should have braked, not swerved, braked a little or not at all. I believe he instinctively swerved to try to avoid the bike - and I would have done the same.

Bus drivers are well aware that if they make an emergency stop for any reason they are SURE to injure many of their own passengers. (Having said that, the new VIP Chiang Mai-Bangkok buses have lap straps on the electric-massaging seats!).

I'll monitor this subject and update you as needed.

[realthaideal]

Thanks for the update Flatout! Nice details and balanced account.

But so now, given all this, you wouldn't really pound the highway flat-out, pedal-to-the-metal thru the fog in one of your little MG's still would you ? Maybe just back in jolly olde, eh ?

[Flatouthruthefog]

Thanks for the update Flatout! Nice details and balanced account.

But so now, given all this, you wouldn't really pound the highway flat-out, pedal-to-the-metal thru the fog in one of your little MG's still would you ? Maybe just back in jolly olde, eh ?

Thanks for that, and the answer to your kind query is certainly not old boy, not there and not here and CERTAINLY never in an MG. It stands for Morris Garages y'know!

The fog is the blanket of obfuscation obscuring my understanding of my chosen road here - and the rest of my poor words simply reflect my compulsion to continue flat out enjoying myself, as I try (and fail) to comprehend.

[john b good]

Any one have any information of a traffic accident yesterday eve I think somewhere on the Chiang Rai Highway, between the 2nd ring road and Doi Saket? I was told a bus was involved and there were a number of fatalities.

Sadly I saw it all. Thursday late morning. Bus to Chiang Rai being driven sensibly at about 70-80 kph north at km post 9. Male moron on motorcycle pulled out straight in front of the bus from the left, heading off towards the U-turn gap. This apology for the human race just never looked to his right at oncoming traffic!

Bus driver swerved violently to the right, just clipping the bike but sadly careering all the way through the central gap, bus up on 2 wheels, hitting 2 pick ups and a girl on a motorcycle before coming to rest off the road on its side on the grass, small Mazda pick up underneath with one male occupant - instantly dead.

Motorcycle girl (no helmet of course), alive and unmarked but apparently with serious back injury, taken away on a pick up before arrival of (many) ambulances 10 mins later.

The other pick up was a yellow seelor travelling southbound. Driver semiconscious, totally trapped in the wreck and bleeding heavily from the head. Eventually (after 25 mins?) freed by ambulancemen and taken away on a stretcher in a neck brace, bleeding having been stopped. Hope very much he survived. Two of his passengers in the back had less serious injuries.

Occupants of the bus amazingly escaped with very minor injuries, the worst being an elderly monk bleeding from the head. Four French tourists with minor cuts and bruises, attended to by a French speaking expat witness. Said they did not need to go to hospital. Bus driver had minor concussion and shock.

I fear the police will try to put some blame on him despite my statement to the contrary, sketch map and showing them later how it happened using model cars! Here in Thailand there is still the tendency to always blame the driver of the larger vehicle. Unless it is a poo-yai Merc of course.

And the culprit bike rider? Mixed reports. Either he was fit enough to do a runner, or someone took him off to hospital before the feds arrived. At least they have the bike and should be able to trace him. Should!

Sickening how it is usually the innocent who suffer. We could all have been in that bus, or in its path!

The best thing the police did was traffic control. The ambulance personnel were excellent and several were English speaking. All arrived promptly.

But out on the roads, this very sadly is STILL the 3rd world.

The only reason that it is 3rd world is that there is no 4th or 5th world (and that's not just on the roads I might add)

[Donnyboy]

I beg to differ

Fourth World

from Wikipedia

The term Fourth World refers to a "lost" world or sub-population subjected to social exclusion in global society. Sociologist Manuel Castells originally coined the term.

Fourth World follows the progression First World, Second World and Third World, which forms a distinct hierarchy of categories for nation-state status. However, unlike these categories Fourth World denotes nations without states. This sense emphasizes the non-recognition or exclusion of often ethnically or religiously defined groups from the political and economic world system. Examples of Fourth World nations include the Roma worldwide, pre-WWI Ashkenazi in the region of the Pale of Settlement, Kurds and Palestinians in the Middle East, many Native American/First Nations groups throughout the Americas and many indigenous Africans.

[john b good]

I beg to differ

Fourth World

from Wikipedia

The term Fourth World refers to a "lost" world or sub-population subjected to social exclusion in global society. Sociologist Manuel Castells originally coined the term.

Fourth World follows the progression First World, Second World and Third World, which forms a distinct hierarchy of categories for nation-state status. However, unlike these categories Fourth World denotes nations without states. This sense emphasizes the non-recognition or exclusion of often ethnically or religiously defined groups from the political and economic world system. Examples of Fourth World nations include the Roma worldwide, pre-WWI Ashkenazi in the region of the Pale of Settlement, Kurds and Palestinians in the Middle East, many Native American/First Nations groups throughout the Americas and many indigenous Africans.

OK DB point taken. So it's 4th world (until someone comes up with some more classifications)

Edited January 12, 2008 by john b good