Thai Landlords

[Flash500]

Apologies if this quoestion has been asked before, but mine may be a little different.

2 Years ago I rented a property via a well known Real Estate Agent, I signed a 2 year lease in my name with the Thai Landlord on a document prepared by the Real Estate Company.

I paid a 2 month deposit of 50,000 bt as agreed.

I gave notice for the end of the 2 year period and vacated the premises on the agreed date 31/10/07. The house was left spotlessly clean apart from a small stain on the sofa.

The contract states that the deposit should be returned within 30 days, less any outstanding bills and costs for any damage other than reasonable wear and tear.

After the 30 days I tried to contact the landlord with great difficuly, various promises were made of payment and I have sms's and emails stating there was no problem with the return. This saga dragged on until yesterday (17 days late) when I received an email saying money had been deposited in acount LESS - 14,000bt to re-upholster sofa, 4,000 bt for a cleaner for a week to clean the house and 5,300 bt for electric, 23,300bt in all.

I have asked for receipts to be sent to substantiate these claims.

The electric bill the previous month was 2,400 bt up to the 17/10/07 therefore I only owe about 1,100 bt (for the 17 days till end of month), where the 5,300 bt comes from I don't know (I have the bill and the payment receipt)

The cleaner must have the best paid job in thailand, 4,000 for doing nothing for a week.....where do I apply?(j/k)

The sofa could have been easily cleaned for 6-7,000 bt

OK sorry to drag on.....does anyone have a start point for me to recover this money, legally in Thailand or otherwise?

Do I have any recourse with the Real Estate Agent?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Gordon

[toptuan]

Rule #1 in Thailand:

Don't ever expect to try to get money back that you've put into the hands of another.

When I pay my apartment deposits, contract or no contract, I just kiss them goodbye. Consider it a renter's expense, not an investment nor savings account.

Ergo: always negotiate the lowest deposit possible. 50,000B seems pretty steep to me. But that's an expat in Isaan talking.

[Mobi]

Thai landlords are notorious for ripping farangs off on security deposits.

At the end of the day, if you tried to sue him, it would be "his word against yours " on the costs involved and in a Thai court I doubt you'd win.

In any event, it would cost you at least your 23K to get a lawyer to take on the case.

It really isn't worth the hassle and stress.

Chalk it up to experience.

[Flash500]

Rule #1 in Thailand:

Ergo: always negotiate the lowest deposit possible. 50,000B seems pretty steep to me. But that's an expat in Isaan talking.

Well you live and learn, the rent was 25k and they wanted 3 month (75k) and got down to 2 month (50k), but now I have a place for 7k and only paid 1 month (7k), easier to swallow the loss....lol...thx anyway

[JonnieB]

Funny enough...I have heard and read all the horror stories about non-return of deposits and always expected the worst when it came time to move but on 3 occasions when I have rented in Thailand, I have always got my deposits back (and these were substantial deposits of B 50,000- B 125,000). Twice was for condos in Bangkok and once was for a house in Pattaya. In all cases, the landlords were Thai individuals or Thai property companies. I don't know if my experience is the norm or the exception but I'm batting 100%.

I think you just have to use your instincts...if the landlord seems like a creap he/she probably is. Also, dealing with established property owners (as opposed to real estate agents) may help. I have always dealt directly with the owner/company. Found all my places by walking around rather than dealing with agents.

Will see what happens with the next move, as now I am renting from one of my fellow FARANGS

[ProThaiExpat]

Small claims court is a good option if you speak Thai.

Another safeguard in the future is to not pay the last months rent and have the landlord take it out of the deposit. Likewise if he is collecting for electric or other utilities like a phone bill. Anything to lower the amount of the deposit to ease the walkaway if you end up with a chiller landlord like I did.

[Flash500]

I think you just have to use your instincts...if the landlord seems like a creap he/she probably is.

THING WAS THEY WERE GOOD LANDLORDS, SPOKE GOOD ENGLISH, EVEN GAVE US A XMAS PRESENT LAST YEAR, ITS A WONDER THEY DIDNT KNOCK THAT OFF THE BILL!!!!

[jonniebkk]

THING WAS THEY WERE GOOD LANDLORDS, SPOKE GOOD ENGLISH, EVEN GAVE US A XMAS PRESENT LAST YEAR, ITS A WONDER THEY DIDNT KNOCK THAT OFF THE BILL!!!!

Yeah...con-men are good at what they do...that's the problem. In Thailand, recourse is really hard. Like some have said, make sure last months rent or two you don't pay...take out of security deposit (try to reach agreement with landlord about this if possible beforehand). Court is a costly and time-consuming alternative but most would just conclude it's not worth it.

If the amount is worth it, you may be able to come to an agreement with a small-time landlord to open a joint-bank account for the security deposit that requires both of your signatures for any withdrawal (and no ATM card). This is not practical in most situations, however. The other alternative is to try to minimize your loss at the start by negotiating for only a 1 month deposit (sometime can get in a weak market). Therefore, if you don't get it back, figure it was just additional monthly rent.

Best bet is trying to have the last month or so rent be taken out of the security deposit. Therefore, you are not actually taking actual cash money out of the pocket of the landlord. Therefore, it would be less painful for them. As it's likely, with smaller operators, they have already spent or "invested" the security deposit somewhere else.

[Beavis and Butthead]

I just moved out of a 53K Apt in BKK in sept. My deposit was the customary 2 months so 106K. My new condo was ready early so I made decision to break my contract which had 3 more months to go. My choice was pay the 3 months or 159K and hope that I get back a good chunk of the 106K deposit OR break my contract and forfeit the 106K outright as the contract states would happen if I dont fulfill it. I went with the bailout option and moved into my new place rather than pay 159K for something I didnt need and risk the 106K anyway. I got a call from the landlord saying that I had a refund of 48K coming my way. I was shocked as I had been raped for a deosit from a prior landlord when breaking a contract by a mere month. Needless to say I was overjoyed to get that 48K and have then keep 58K. I am still rejoicing over it

[sierra01]

My last rental in Thailand the Landlady agreed to give the deposit back at the time we moved out. While all the furnature was being removed she started argueing about it, I gave her a while to reconsider then ordered the removal guys to start taking the stuff back into the house, she soon coughed up then. By the way, I knew she had new tenants moving in the following day so that might have had something to do with her change of mind!

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

I have already posted this on a "positive stories only" thread, but I will post my experiences again with some more details, for what it is worth.

Case 1: I was renting (in my name, but my employer footed the bill) from a renowned property developer. Deposit of 120K was returned very soon after moving out, and we settled the utilities on moving out day. Easy and hazzle-free.

Case 2: Is just happening now, renting from a Thai individual, deposit 26K (this time I pay the rent, Cheap Charlie I am). My lease expires at year end, and I just did not pay the rent for November and December. Landlady took quite long to notice, and when she asked why I had not paid, I said I am reclaiming the deposit. She agreed without fuss.

I have to add that I have rented here for 7 years total, and have taken extremely good care of her house in any way you can imagine. I have actually increased the house value quite a bit, so see case two in this light. If you are a less caring renter, you might have more trouble...

In case 1 I rented for 4 years, also being careful with the house, and on friendly terms with the estate manager. These things obviously go a long way in getting your money back. But I will tend to agree with many posters, that a deposit in Thailand is best regarded as lost from the start, but as a bonus if some or all is repaid. Hence no disappointments (similar to loans extended to most people here; regard them as gifts and sleep well at night!)

[Ozziepaul]

We are living with free with my employers now, as I am doing consultancy work for them. So nothing to worry about for now.

When we vacated the last place, the landlord told the wife she wanted 8,000 Bt for a sofa, as someone haad seen our dog on it and as it belonged to her brother, he insisted she (the landlord) buy it from him.

There was nothing wrong with the sofa, it was spotless and looked like it had just come off the showroom floor.

Of course I totally believed the landlords story...NOT..!!! and when it came time to settle the final bill, I calculated the electricity used up to date, gave the hag about 230 Bt for water, when it's usually about 350/month.

Told her my wife would be around shortly to discuss the sofa and left smiling.

There was no deposit to worry about and suffice to say we have never been back or answered their calls and they can shove the sofa where it fits.

I've been here too long to get cornered like that and our next rental will be very rigid in terms of a contract and like other much wiser people have said, IF a deposit is paid, then I will simply use it up at the end of the rental period and do the same thing.

Calculate the electricity and throw a few baht in for the water.

If it's too much bother and expense to go the way of lawyers for farangs, then it may also apply to the landlords.

Either way, as one poster said, once you part with cash - simply forget it.

Cheers n beers.

Big Paulee.

[apetley]

This may be one of the exceptions to the rule but our last rental deposit return was fine.

We paid a 3 month rental deposit when we first moved in.

4 months before we moved out I asked the landlady about the deposit and suggested, tough in cheek, that we don't pay any rent for the last 3 months so she didn't have to pay us the deposit back.

Amazingly she agreed.

[Beavis and Butthead]

Most landlords that I know will simply padlock units where a tenant will try and use deposits to pay last months rents. I also notice that many contracts specifically state that deposits will not be used for this purpose. If I'm a landlord, I would certainly do exactly that. by taking the matter in your own hands you are taking a large risk. The landlord has the power to change locks for non payment of rent and then you're totally screwed. avoid confrontation and do as your contract says

Edited December 18, 2007 by Beavis and Butthead

[Beavis and Butthead]

This may be one of the exceptions to the rule but our last rental deposit return was fine.

We paid a 3 month rental deposit when we first moved in.

4 months before we moved out I asked the landlady about the deposit and suggested, tough in cheek, that we don't pay any rent for the last 3 months so she didn't have to pay us the deposit back.

Amazingly she agreed.

power to you in that situation. good work, that's best scenario

[Flash500]

some interesting scenarios there thx all....food for thought...as they say you live and learn.

[xyborg]

IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM GETTING BACK A DEPOSIT CALL THIS NUMBER THEY WILL HELP YOU Phone number : 1166

[xyborg]

<br />I have already posted this on a "positive stories only" thread, but I will post my experiences again with some more details, for what it is worth.<br /><br />Case 1: I was renting (in my name, but my employer footed the bill) from a renowned property developer. Deposit of 120K was returned very soon after moving out, and we settled the utilities on moving out day. Easy and hazzle-free.<br /><br />Case 2: Is just happening now, renting from a Thai individual, deposit 26K (this time I pay the rent, Cheap Charlie I am). My lease expires at year end, and I just did not pay the rent for November and December. Landlady took quite long to notice, and when she asked why I had not paid, I said I am reclaiming the deposit. She agreed without fuss.<br /><br />I have to add that I have rented here for 7 years total, and have taken extremely good care of her house in any way you can imagine. I have actually increased the house value quite a bit, so see case two in this light. If you are a less caring renter, you might have more trouble...<br /><br />In case 1 I rented for 4 years, also being careful with the house, and on friendly terms with the estate manager. These things obviously go a long way in getting your money back. But I will tend to agree with many posters, that a deposit in Thailand is best regarded as lost from the start, but as a bonus if some or all is repaid. Hence no disappointments (similar to loans extended to most people here; regard them as gifts and sleep well at night!)<br />

<br /><br /><br

I have only not returned a deposit once and that was to a Thai who left 3 months early , left the place dirty with beer still in glasses on the table, fridge full of decaying food, old clothes left on the floor. She had never cleaned the place once in 3 months. It cost her 30000 baht in lost deposit. It works both ways. Fortunately her dumb Farang b/f paid all of this and carted her off to Switzerland............... lucky man erkkkkkk

[Flash500]

IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM GETTING BACK A DEPOSIT CALL THIS NUMBER THEY WILL HELP YOU Phone number : 1166

Thanks alot....I will and let you know the outcome as they are ignoring emails etc

[torrenova]

I rented a condo for 2 1/2 years (6 month then 2 one year contracts) and had 1 months deposit. Over the time, the agent became more and more lax about collecting tht rent (they came to me). Sometimes it would be nearly a month behind.

When I decided to leave, I just didn't pay the last month's rent and went to the office (they never came to collect the rent !) where they drew up a bill for 2 months rent plus utilities. I said I was moving out as my contract was up and I owed the utilities. No problems.

I rented my current house through an advert with a small find a tenant only agent and paid 2 months deposit and a months rent (the finder or agent gets one month as commission). About a week after the first rent was due, a guy who looks after the houses for the owner came for the rent at about 5pm. I said I didn't have it in cash but he could have it after I went to the bank. He said he needed to buy a bed for another house and he had no money from the landlord to do so until he go tmy rent (he is from the UK). I queried where my 2 months deposit was and why he didn't use that ! Needless to say, I will not be paying rent for the last two months unless I decide to sign for another year. If I do sign, I want the finders commission.

[Flash500]

UPDATE

threatened legal action......got another 4,000 baht back, 18,000 to go

[bedbugy]

like the thai saying

you give suger cane to an elephant

try getting it back

[haltes]

Needless to say, I will not be paying rent for the last two months unless I decide to sign for another year. If I do sign, I want the finders commission.

Well this breaks just about every rental contract that is out there, normally the landlord is entitled to make a deduction for any utility bills etc that are still outstanding before giving the remainder back.

[Flash500]

Needless to say, I will not be paying rent for the last two months unless I decide to sign for another year. If I do sign, I want the finders commission.

Well this breaks just about every rental contract that is out there, normally the landlord is entitled to make a deduction for any utility bills etc that are still outstanding before giving the remainder back.

My initial point exactly....I have a signed 4 page contract which I honoured and expect the other party to aswell, regardless whether they are Thai, Farang or whatever. In my case they are deducting monies for cleaning the house which I personally cleaned and left in perfect condition. If I was in the UK I' would pursue it to court and thats what I will do here.

Its not like i'm a dumbass that leant somebody in the street in thailand and expected to get it back.

[toptuan]

Its not like i'm a dumbass that leant somebody in the street in thailand and expected to get it back.

giving a deposit to a landlord = lending money to somebody in the street = same result

Further, contracts are not worth the paper they are written on in Thailand, IMHO. Been here 4.5 years and seen at least 10 violations of rental contracts, employment contracts, warranty contracts, etc. No one does anything about it. The system is based entirely on personal trust of well-connected friends or relatives. Contracts be damned.

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

I would venture to say that the rule of law does apply to most cases where foreigners are involved.

It seems so easy to complain and blaim the local judisic system.

It would be good to see some real solid evidence where foreigners are not allowed real justice...

I am waiting...

[SamuiBond]

My friends pal was in a "padlock" situation with no deposit refund. My friend assisted him by going to the tourist police. With the kind help of them, case was solved on the spot.

With my first rental I was "scammed"as was my friend by the same landlord but after learning the lesson never had problems since. There's some good Thai landlords out there too. Now I got a perfect pay rent month by month in advance with no deposits.

Edited December 19, 2007 by SamuiBond

[Mobi]

I would venture to say that the rule of law does apply to most cases where foreigners are involved.

It seems so easy to complain and blaim the local judisic system.

It would be good to see some real solid evidence where foreigners are not allowed real justice...

I am waiting...

I really don't wish to appear patronising, but I am afraid you have a lot to learn about farangs and Thai law - indeed anyone without money and influence, and Thai law.

I can tell you about rent deposit problems that will make your hair curl. And this from someone who once shamed a "Hi So" Khunying into paying back a rent deposit - Baht by wretched Baht - that she thought she could cheat me out of. And I also speak as someone who has successfully obtained a judgement against a Thai in my favour through the Thai courts.

Most Thais have absolutely no integrity as far as business is concerned and will screw you whenever the opportunity arises, and this certainly includes the refunding of security deposits which are fair game as far as farangs are concerned.

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

Mobi,

OK if you say so. I really can not say much for or against.

But scary nevertheless.

[Flash500]

And I also speak as someone who has successfully obtained a judgement against a Thai in my favour through the Thai courts.

Was the result the same as UK where you were awarded costs aswell?