Thai Landlords

[Mobi]

And I also speak as someone who has successfully obtained a judgement against a Thai in my favour through the Thai courts.

Was the result the same as UK where you were awarded costs aswell?

You must be joking.

I got the judgement, and my lawyer, who worked on a contingency fee, helped himself to a nice chunk - more than it should have been because the system was going to screw me, even after I won. It took me 2 years, and to this day, in spite of finally getting a sizeable sum back, I still wish I had just let it go and got on with my life.

It's pretty grim here for a farang to try and buck the system.

[Heng]

A good number of our properties are undeveloped when leased so it's really a given that you'll get your deposit back with us in those cases. Here's your deposit back, thanks for keeping the squatters away and babysitting for us while the city was expanding out to reach us.

As for homes, condos, and shop houses, it's a real mixed bag with 'first time' type situations happening all the time. The common denominator is that tenants and landlords simply look at 'damage' from two completely different points of view. Just a few months ago, had a case where a tenant had managed to create a slow water leak (if you watched the water meter, it'd move and pause, move and pause,...) somewhere under one of the bathrooms or kitchen he did some DIY (with permission) home improvement work on a house we leased out to him for 2 years. I docked him 90k Baht or about half of the two months rental deposit. He was pretty pissed and tried to say that the leak only increased the water bill by about 450 Baht a month. He was paying for 15+ years of water?! Naturally he wasn't looking at it from a long term water damage point of view because it wasn't his house. I explained that we were going to have to knock down a wall and rebuild a bathroom (albeit with all the same fixtures, some of them his "improvements"). He then tried to take the point of view that it'd only cost us a few thousand Baht in day labor + materials (he knew we have a construction biz branch of the family). True, (well, more like 15,000 Baht), but it's also arbitrary damages figured in for making us knock down a rather well built Land and House product and taking this property out of our rental portfolio for what in the end turned out to be 2 1/2 weeks.

Anyhoo, leak fixed and lesson learned (by all parties hopefully).

YMMV. There are some crap landlords out there, but there are certainly plenty of crap tenants as well. That "vacating and using the deposit as rent" thing is rampant, not only here but with our US properties as well.

[kat]

Small claims court is a good option if you speak Thai.

Another safeguard in the future is to not pay the last months rent and have the landlord take it out of the deposit. Likewise if he is collecting for electric or other utilities like a phone bill. Anything to lower the amount of the deposit to ease the walkaway if you end up with a chiller landlord like I did.

I rented a condo before I left LOS and they tried to come up with ridiculous claims to not pay back my deposit. But, since the claims were easily refuted, they knew the claims were ridiculous, and I ended up just staying the last month without paying rent. They also didn't fix the air conditioner or one sink in my main bathroom for the last months I was there, so I made sure to return the favor and left plenty to clean up on my departure.

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

As in most cases, this is a two-way street. Give and take (you give and I take ;-)

Both parties have to show some form of committment to the deal, and try to make it a win-win situation.

OK, this may sound like a pipe dream for some of you, but I do find that in many cases, even in Thailand, it works quite well. Many committments are honored, and many people are honest and want to do right.

Don't be afraid of giving a bit, and trust a bit. OK, so if it goes sour you may lose a bit, but you have your integrity intact, and have learned a lesson.

Mobi, yes I know I am green, have only been here 11 years, so I am still learning!

[Beardog]

I learned by round 2 of renting .it absolutely does not matter how nice you are how many improvements you do to the place.And the nicer they are is just that they are more advanced at the scamming art. as of my last landlord that let her place rot & expected me to pay for a new water tank(16 years old) fix the water meter 50 years old put in a new lawn...........we did not pay last months rent. I calculated the tot internet bill(in her name as she insisted) electric & Phone also in her name water +garbage.

that left 2000 baht, so I deducted one real nice lock & water hose along with leaving all the normal things that break or wear out dead. I left her tape on the walls (sticky double sided tape) very hard to scrape off.& all the holes I had to bore through cement without repair. In the U.S. I leave the house in better shape +all the additions(unless they specify to remove them) And have usually done well in getting deposits back. This last house we rented I had my girl explain to her our bad experience And straight up we will give a first & last only(the last to be used as a sec. deposit) We are breaking the lease so we can move into our small Bungalow we are building- While we wait for the awesome 3-bdr to be built.

Alisa has told the owner our last month(Dec 21st-Jan 21st) is the money she has in her pocket now & since she has been pretty fair with us I had Alisa assure her that the areas that need repaint & the holes put in the cement for shelves & pictures will all be filled & repainted as well. I am sure she would rather keep the money & run but if you are firm in the beginning & put it in writing & do the right things to stack the odds in your favor, the farang does not always have to lose! Sure it might not get you every house -apt. or condo you look at ,but if you can get an agreement &keep your down money small it saves a lot of headaches later. The only money she loses is the last 5 months as she will have to get a new tenant. EDIT: I forgot to mention Never under any circumstance be it a Farang or a Thai you rent from pay your last month as you already have paid it! And it is imperative you do a comprehensive walk through & look for black mold on outside of bathroom areas, sinks & fittings Take pictures of everything & have the landlord agree & sign that they are soley responsible for their repairs needed. I am not talking if it is your fault-then its up to your integrity to fix it, but in the case of worn out parts & sytems why should you pay for someone else's house . Our 2 landlords ago lost all 3 cases in court as it is the same here as in western countries.The owner is responsible for aging water tanks etc. Just say no, cause a good recommendation in LOS does not mean anything either they will sign or they won't. My rentals I had in the states I did the same & it is fair to be fair, unlike a lot of the sediment in Thailand.

Beardog.........Good luck on your recouping your losses,sounds like you have already done better than most!

Edited December 20, 2007 by Beardog

[bedbugy]

some tips before you sign the contract

take photo's with digatel cam of all the holes in wood and cement and other hassles show to the owner that these are here now and not your doing

i lost my deposit once for putting curtain rails up although i was leaving them up anyway

best to do nothing it's not yours so why bother do as the thai do live with concrete walls or look for better even an hook for the clock is enough to loose your deposit

[kmart]

As in most cases, this is a two-way street. Give and take (you give and I take ;-)

Both parties have to show some form of committment to the deal, and try to make it a win-win situation.

OK, this may sound like a pipe dream for some of you, but I do find that in many cases, even in Thailand, it works quite well. Many committments are honored, and many people are honest and want to do right.

Don't be afraid of giving a bit, and trust a bit. OK, so if it goes sour you may lose a bit, but you have your integrity intact, and have learned a lesson.

Mobi, yes I know I am green, have only been here 11 years, so I am still learning!

Thanks for a bit of positivity. I've never had a problem renting houses from private owners. Most of the people I have rented from have been an absolute delight to deal with. And I've never had a problem recouping a deposit after negotiating any damages or cleaning-up details after informing them of my intention to move.

I've had problems renting from leasing companies however. And mostly crap service too, hence I never bother with them anymore.

[Mobi]

As in most cases, this is a two-way street. Give and take (you give and I take ;-)

Both parties have to show some form of committment to the deal, and try to make it a win-win situation.

OK, this may sound like a pipe dream for some of you, but I do find that in many cases, even in Thailand, it works quite well. Many committments are honored, and many people are honest and want to do right.

Don't be afraid of giving a bit, and trust a bit. OK, so if it goes sour you may lose a bit, but you have your integrity intact, and have learned a lesson.

Mobi, yes I know I am green, have only been here 11 years, so I am still learning!

With all due respect, I fail to see how integrity on the part of the lessee comes into it.

You sign a lease and pay a security deposit. At the end of the lease you expect return of your security deposit, in accordance with the lease, after withholding sums for wear and tear, repairs etc, as stipulated in the lease.

Many, but not all will have a very hard time ( especially farangs) in getting a fair and equitable amount returned.

Some are obviously lucky, but many can recount horror stories, as indeed I can.

I fail to see how "showing commitment to deal " has any relevance - please explain.

I have never advocated withholding rent for the final two months, nor would I advocate any other questionable tactics.

As an Englishman of the 'old school' I conduct my business dealings with integrity at all times, but I sometimes wonder if this is the wrong way to behave in the LOS, as given the chance I sometimes get 'walked all over'. But I am too old to change.

As I have said many times before, loss of face is more important to most Thais than business integrity, and and if you can "get in their face" enough, it ofetn works wonders in extracting you money from unscrupulous landlords. It's worked for me on a number of occasions.

[Tod Daniels]

Strange this topic came up as I just witnessed a similar incident on my Soi.

Just last week, down the street from my apartment there was a HUGE argument between a foreigner (sorry boycotting the word 'ฝรั่ง') and the thai landlady. It was soo loud that I'd walked out to see what was happening. She was really turning up the volume, ranting and raving. It seemed no resolution was going to be forthcoming.

To his credit the foreigner NEVER raised his voice only walked away after she’d gone back into her house and slammed the door. Evidently that’s when he called the Police district where I live, not the Tourist Police. The motorcycle showed up about 10 minutes later, a conversation ensued with the foreigner showing his paperwork, receipts etc. The officer went up and knocked on the landlady's door. As she opened it she paled noticeably and her demeanor was a 180 degree turn around of what had transpired minutes before, the wind had certainly gone out of her sails. She had morphed from the 'evil step mother' into 'princess charming'.

When I spoke to him after it was all said and done, he said she ended up refunding his full deposit but he agreed to have her hold back the amount of the previous month's utility bill which was in her name as the current one hadn't arrived yet.

I believe the Police may be the way to go, as you are out nothing by trying them.

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

Mobi,

I think we are pretty close on this one actually, it is just that I tend to overcomplicate my writing, and since English is not my first language either, I might use the wrong words or phrases from time to time.

I basically mean that if you behave properly, you have a better chance of people treating you well. No guarantees, but your odds are improving.

I also try to conduct my business with full integrity, I pay my bills on receipt, not on due date. The withholding of my deposit of 26K was done due to the landlady always having lack of funds to do stuff in the house, replace worn out aircons, etc. And I did spend 250K altogether on alarm system, water system upgrade, electricals, painting, repairs and a host of other stuff, most of which will be hers when we move. So I thought in this case it was warrented, and as you know, she did not argue at all.

The successful use of the police to help is a bit surprising, but nice to hear. It does give me renewed trust that there is still justice to be had though, also for us foreigners. All is not lost yet!

As an aside, and totally off-topic except that it happened in Pong, so I hope it will be allowed to stay by the ever vigilant mods. Thank you.

I went past the new GIB mini-mart at Mabprachan lake today, and said hello to the man himself, a very likable Ozzy fellow and a TV forum contributor. He is stocking up on some seriously nice stuff, not your usual crisps and drinks (although he has those also), but pasta, olive oil, balsamico, deli food, real coffee, and soon nice bread. He is next door to the new Irish pub Mulligans, so mosey on over and do your shopping next time you come for a beer. He said that he will slowly add to the selection, but that will depend on how much we, the customers, spend there of course. So perhaps if we all do our bit, we don't need to do that long trek in to Foodland or Villa for the top-up of some vital groceries.

Disclaimer: I refuse to disclose what amount I was paid by GIB to flog his new shop!

[Wrong Turn]

Thai landlords are notorious for ripping farangs off on security deposits.

At the end of the day, if you tried to sue him, it would be "his word against yours " on the costs involved and in a Thai court I doubt you'd win.

In any event, it would cost you at least your 23K to get a lawyer to take on the case.

It really isn't worth the hassle and stress.

Chalk it up to experience.

This is why I only live in large, established, apartments.

Also, the local checkers come in and check the meter for my utilities.

Too many instances of skimming off of utilities, and not getting deposits owed.

In fairness, I've never had a problem because I always did a lot of research before moving to a new place, and signing a lease.

[Mobi]

MeaMaximaCulpa,

I believe it is time to declare a truce.

Your English is very good, and as always , you put us native born Englishmen to shame.

It would seem that we two are the most honourable farangs that ever came to Thailand

Mr Gibb advise me of your stopover - word spreads quickly Lakeside.

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

Mobi,

Thanks for those nice words, but no need for a truce, since there never was a war, just a good discussion.

I am sure we shall see you one of these days around the lake, we are moving in over the weekend!

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

BasingPoint,

I am not sure if your post was adressed to me or Mobi, or perhaps both of us. But whatever.

Since I am in a Christmas mood this morning, I shall take your good advice and stock up on the KY gel (if I got the name right), before I am thrown into the dungeons of the Thai justice system.

A very merry Cristmas to you, and all the other forum members!

[LivinLOS]

My mates just told me about thier last security deposit.. On completion it was promised, then promised then promised.. Then in the end the Thai guys said "In Thailand we dont give those back" However the woman involved made such a scene, calling him every day 3 or 4 times that he did in fact come and throw the money at them in frustration !!

So far I am batting 100% on 3 rental properties (one with a high end farang run and owned tho).. Quite simply on my last month, I get the landlord round, make them agree they are happy with everythings condition, give them the notice I am leaving, then when they agree all is fine, I refuse to pay the rent equal to the deposit, if they are happy with everything, then whats the problem ??

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

Since we are in a land where rental deposits are mostly seen as gifts, and if we apply our western value system, I do not think it is unethical to withhold the deposit.

In my case, I will meet with the landlady after we have vacated the house, and go through room by room, and agree any costs that may be my responsibility. Same with utilities, we will settle those later, when the bills come through. The thing is, my landlady trusts me (she better), so this is really a non-issue.

[Mobi]

However the woman involved made such a scene, calling him every day 3 or 4 times that he did in fact come and throw the money at them in frustration !!

Atta Boy! That's how you get your money back!

It's not frustration - it's loss of face. Works every time, if you keep at it.