Why Is Thailand So Messed Up In Many Areas?

[pointofview]

I'm an American luk kreung and since childhood have been to LOS many, many times with family and have noticed a practically pandemic amount of corruption, a huge amount of 'gold digging' going on, along with ignorance, arrogant xenophobia, apathethic worldview, pathological snobbishness by the wealthier Thais, shallow media, and generally bad examples of behavior for future generations and visitors that are going to hold Thailand back from what I believe could be a truly better society.

I usually keep these opinions to myself and simply mark them down as signs of Thailand being another country that's still very much a developing society.

But I'm disappointed.

Is LOS going to change from these any time soon or is my dream of a nice society in Thailand something that could only happen in the distant future?

If you'd looked at Western nations 100 years ago with modern eyes you could have made very similar accusations. A nation can't go from developing to developed in a single leap. It takes a couple of generations. Thailand is evolving in all these areas.

To expect perfection on day one is a bit unreasonable. Even God took 6 days to create the world. Another 3 generations and Thailand won't be too dissimilar to the most advanced countries in both economic and socio-political aspects

Many so called developed countrys are now in a state of undeveloping - in less than a few generations. So lets hope developing nations take heed. As for god making the world in 6 days - any proof of this or is it just a conviction?

God creating the world in 6 days is a figure of speech used by native speakers. Sorry for any confusion

As for developed countries undeveloping - any proof of this or is it just a conviction?

The proof of decline in so called developed countries is vast - but first you must look! God created the world in 6 days is not just a figure of speach - there are 100s of millions of 'convicts who hold this conviction'

PS Try looking into breakdown in social, moral and religious values throughout the west: Uk eg. - 50% single parent familys and rising; out of control drug and alcohol abuse; unprecidented household debt; family values constantly being undermined; constant errosion of human rights and individual freedoms, etc etc. Proof for the sighted not the blind!

Illegal drug use has stabilised or is declining in most western countries, alcohol abuse, the same. There is unprecedented household debt, but there is also unprecedented household wealth with incomes in the west at an all time high. Average lifespans are at an all time high, infant mortality at an all time low, cancer survival rates at an all time high. Almost all of the developed world has more forest cover now than it did in 1900. The west has cleaner air and water than at any time since 1750. Almost all developed country homes have central heating and potable water. All children in developed nations have free education up to the age of 18 and subsidised education beyond that and test scores have steadily increased over the last couple of decades. Most crime statistics have been declining for the last decade.

What human rights and individual freedoms have been eroded? Please be specific, as I am unaware of any human right of mine that been withdrawn or weakened in any way. In fact, the European Convention on Human Rights has expanded and strengthened most of them.

The rest of your "proof" is a repetition of the decline of "values" Values can mean different things to different people. Obviously if you are of the opinion that children in daycare is a decline in family values, then you are going to be in disagreement with those who value the right of women to work outside the family home. If you think family values are damaged by children being raised in non-nuclear families then you are going to be in disagreement with those who value the right of people to choose different living arrangements.

Seems to me you dislike the west and have an emotional opinion of the decline of the west rather than an evidence based one.

The nations that are today classified as developed hold a larger share of global GDP than they did in 1900, a time of Western Imperial hegemony.

Not much of a decline there

The developed nations of today are wealthier, healthier, safer and smarter than they have ever been.

American Patriot Act - Google EU Constitution - 107,000 new regulations and laws - google

Single parent families (name yor place) - google UK eg - 60% of housholds dependent on state handouts - google North American Union - Google

Talking from a standpoint of the UK most working people have never been so poor and depressed - ofcourse there will always be those who get ahead.

From a marxis/facist viewpoint a non nuclear family is positvie - from my view point it is decline. People dont choose - agendas are pushed. Even homosexuality is promoted as normal - decline!

Most working people in the UK have never been so poor and depressed!?! Have you ever been to the UK? I'm just old enough to remember the 1970s and early 1980s and Britain is a vastly wealthier country bursting with opportunities and is more of a meritocracy than even the US. Income mobility is higher in the UK than the US. Both of which are vastly higher than any developing nation.

Per capita GDP in most developed countries is 5 times higher than it was in 1900. 5 TIMES higher! And income distribution has widened over the last 2 decades, but its still far more evenly distributed than it was in 1900.

Probably 99% of British households depend on state handouts if you include the NHS and education. 100% of British families with children get handouts. Claiming this shows that developed nations are undeveloping simply shows you have no idea how a developed nation operates.

I asked you specifically to name a human right that has been taken away from me. You told me to go to Google it. You were the one that stated that rights are being lost, you provide the evidence to back up your claim.

I've never seen anything that has promoted homosexuality as normal. I have seen a push to end discrimination against homosexuals. I would suggest you expose yourself to the same material as you seem to take it as an a priori fact that homosexuality is a sign of decline. Even if that were the case, rates of homosexual sexual experiences for males have not risen since the "Golden Age of the nuclear family" of the 1950s when the first anonymous surveys were done and they have risen only slightly for women.

The nuclear family itself is a historical oddity that arose as a result of the industrial revolution and the rise of the clock as a dominant factor in human affairs. Apart from a short period of time in a small number of nations the nuclear family has never been the norm for humans in all of human history across all human cultures. The extended family is the norm. The vast majority of single mothers exist as part of extended families. The decline of the nuclear family may be a normal part of the development of nations from industrial to service.

Even if the decline of the nuclear family is a bad thing, its not showing up in the statistics, crime, health, wealth, longevity, etc. as I posted earlier are all still improving despite this horrendous thing that is supposed to be destroying the developed world.

The facts aren't there to justify your dream of the decline of the west.

'Those who accept authority as the truth have great trouble seeing the truth as the authority.'

Listen mate you seem to have plenty of time to argue your points so just google a few things. Obviously the UK is better off than developing countries. You obviously believe what you are told as you are reluctant to consider the truth. I remember the 70s and 80s very well and i can tell you i dont need statistics to tell me whats right.

I think ( know) you get your views from mainstream corporate media - after all that is the authority. Your sound bite language is full of references to surveys and statistics, which you are happy to call facts.

If you really cant see that the destruction of the nuclear family as having a disasterous affect socialy and moraly - just keep reading marx.

I doubt if you googled - The Patriot Act, The EU Treaty, or The North American Union. I think you dont need to because you already know! Try searching for some truth - no, ok i understand it is too comfortable where you stand!

NB just read your closing line again: it is not my dream but my nightmare - and i must say that those setting the agenda know the truth, where as the usefull idiots often believe in the lie - especially after constant hypnosis.

Edited December 24, 2007 by pointofview

[Theyreallrubbish]

I'm an American luk kreung and since childhood have been to LOS many, many times with family and have noticed a practically pandemic amount of corruption, a huge amount of 'gold digging' going on, along with ignorance, arrogant xenophobia, apathethic worldview, pathological snobbishness by the wealthier Thais, shallow media, and generally bad examples of behavior for future generations and visitors that are going to hold Thailand back from what I believe could be a truly better society.

I usually keep these opinions to myself and simply mark them down as signs of Thailand being another country that's still very much a developing society.

But I'm disappointed.

Is LOS going to change from these any time soon or is my dream of a nice society in Thailand something that could only happen in the distant future?

If you'd looked at Western nations 100 years ago with modern eyes you could have made very similar accusations. A nation can't go from developing to developed in a single leap. It takes a couple of generations. Thailand is evolving in all these areas.

To expect perfection on day one is a bit unreasonable. Even God took 6 days to create the world. Another 3 generations and Thailand won't be too dissimilar to the most advanced countries in both economic and socio-political aspects

Many so called developed countrys are now in a state of undeveloping - in less than a few generations. So lets hope developing nations take heed. As for god making the world in 6 days - any proof of this or is it just a conviction?

God creating the world in 6 days is a figure of speech used by native speakers. Sorry for any confusion

As for developed countries undeveloping - any proof of this or is it just a conviction?

The proof of decline in so called developed countries is vast - but first you must look! God created the world in 6 days is not just a figure of speach - there are 100s of millions of 'convicts who hold this conviction'

PS Try looking into breakdown in social, moral and religious values throughout the west: Uk eg. - 50% single parent familys and rising; out of control drug and alcohol abuse; unprecidented household debt; family values constantly being undermined; constant errosion of human rights and individual freedoms, etc etc. Proof for the sighted not the blind!

Illegal drug use has stabilised or is declining in most western countries, alcohol abuse, the same. There is unprecedented household debt, but there is also unprecedented household wealth with incomes in the west at an all time high. Average lifespans are at an all time high, infant mortality at an all time low, cancer survival rates at an all time high. Almost all of the developed world has more forest cover now than it did in 1900. The west has cleaner air and water than at any time since 1750. Almost all developed country homes have central heating and potable water. All children in developed nations have free education up to the age of 18 and subsidised education beyond that and test scores have steadily increased over the last couple of decades. Most crime statistics have been declining for the last decade.

What human rights and individual freedoms have been eroded? Please be specific, as I am unaware of any human right of mine that been withdrawn or weakened in any way. In fact, the European Convention on Human Rights has expanded and strengthened most of them.

The rest of your "proof" is a repetition of the decline of "values" Values can mean different things to different people. Obviously if you are of the opinion that children in daycare is a decline in family values, then you are going to be in disagreement with those who value the right of women to work outside the family home. If you think family values are damaged by children being raised in non-nuclear families then you are going to be in disagreement with those who value the right of people to choose different living arrangements.

Seems to me you dislike the west and have an emotional opinion of the decline of the west rather than an evidence based one.

The nations that are today classified as developed hold a larger share of global GDP than they did in 1900, a time of Western Imperial hegemony.

Not much of a decline there

The developed nations of today are wealthier, healthier, safer and smarter than they have ever been.

American Patriot Act - Google EU Constitution - 107,000 new regulations and laws - google

Single parent families (name yor place) - google UK eg - 60% of housholds dependent on state handouts - google North American Union - Google

Talking from a standpoint of the UK most working people have never been so poor and depressed - ofcourse there will always be those who get ahead.

From a marxis/facist viewpoint a non nuclear family is positvie - from my view point it is decline. People dont choose - agendas are pushed. Even homosexuality is promoted as normal - decline!

Most working people in the UK have never been so poor and depressed!?! Have you ever been to the UK? I'm just old enough to remember the 1970s and early 1980s and Britain is a vastly wealthier country bursting with opportunities and is more of a meritocracy than even the US. Income mobility is higher in the UK than the US. Both of which are vastly higher than any developing nation.

Per capita GDP in most developed countries is 5 times higher than it was in 1900. 5 TIMES higher! And income distribution has widened over the last 2 decades, but its still far more evenly distributed than it was in 1900.

Probably 99% of British households depend on state handouts if you include the NHS and education. 100% of British families with children get handouts. Claiming this shows that developed nations are undeveloping simply shows you have no idea how a developed nation operates.

I asked you specifically to name a human right that has been taken away from me. You told me to go to Google it. You were the one that stated that rights are being lost, you provide the evidence to back up your claim.

I've never seen anything that has promoted homosexuality as normal. I have seen a push to end discrimination against homosexuals. I would suggest you expose yourself to the same material as you seem to take it as an a priori fact that homosexuality is a sign of decline. Even if that were the case, rates of homosexual sexual experiences for males have not risen since the "Golden Age of the nuclear family" of the 1950s when the first anonymous surveys were done and they have risen only slightly for women.

The nuclear family itself is a historical oddity that arose as a result of the industrial revolution and the rise of the clock as a dominant factor in human affairs. Apart from a short period of time in a small number of nations the nuclear family has never been the norm for humans in all of human history across all human cultures. The extended family is the norm. The vast majority of single mothers exist as part of extended families. The decline of the nuclear family may be a normal part of the development of nations from industrial to service.

Even if the decline of the nuclear family is a bad thing, its not showing up in the statistics, crime, health, wealth, longevity, etc. as I posted earlier are all still improving despite this horrendous thing that is supposed to be destroying the developed world.

The facts aren't there to justify your dream of the decline of the west.

'Those who accept authority as the truth have great trouble seeing the truth as the authority.'

Listen mate you seem to have plenty of time to argue your points so just google a few things. Obviously the UK is better off than developing countries. You obviously believe what you are told as you are reluctant to consider the truth. I remember the 70s and 80s very well and i can tell you i dont need statistics to tell me whats right.

I think ( know) you get your views from mainstream corporate media - after all that is the authority. Your sound bite language is full of references to surveys and statistics, which you are happy to call facts.

If you really cant see that the destruction of the nuclear family as having a disasterous affect socialy and moraly - just keep reading marx.

I doubt if you googled - The Patriot Act, The EU Treaty, or The North American Union. I think you dont need to because you already know! Try searching for some truth - no, ok i understand it is too comfortable where you stand!

NB just read your closing line again: it is not my dream but my nightmare - and i must say that those setting the agenda know the truth, where as the usefull idiots often believe in the lie - especially after constant hypnosis.

Not a single fact. In fact, according to you, all facts are false propaganda put out by corporate mainstream media, except for the "special" facts that you alone know.

I bet you know "The Truth" about 9/11, the moon landings, alien abductions and the JFK assassination as well don't you?

[endure]

It would be a good idea if we could return to the original subject of the thread, stop bickering and stop producing reams of quoted posts which serve no purpose other than to clutter the place up.

[Pundi64]

I'm an American luk kreung and since childhood have been to LOS many, many times with family and have noticed a practically pandemic amount of corruption, a huge amount of 'gold digging' going on, along with ignorance, arrogant xenophobia, apathethic worldview, pathological snobbishness by the wealthier Thais, shallow media, and generally bad examples of behavior for future generations and visitors that are going to hold Thailand back from what I believe could be a truly better society.

I usually keep these opinions to myself and simply mark them down as signs of Thailand being another country that's still very much a developing society.

But I'm disappointed.

Is LOS going to change from these any time soon or is my dream of a nice society in Thailand something that could only happen in the distant future?

Way toooooooooooo much corruption from the local food vendor, and prices for the frang, to the heads of the government, notice this is a pretty wide span of corruption.

[NanLaew]

Do we really want Thailand and other developing countries to be USA clones?

You mean LoS isn't?

Let's see: LoS now has Christmas, Easter, Valentine's day & Halloween.

None of there are anything to do with Thai culture, but some farang decided thet were essential here (or could make money out of it).

You think it was a farang who decided to make money out of those events? Give the Thias some credit, please!

And why are most of the "Thailand is going down the sh*thole" opinions a bordline anti-American rant? Thailand is an international country with as big or bigger impact and influence from Australia, Malaysia, Laos, Cambodia, Burma, Japan, China, and most of western Europe. Facts are facts. Thailand is largely a rural agrarian nation. To expect it to change all at once into some international economic powerhourse with good paying jobs and prosperity for all, is asking a bit much, for Thailand or any other emerging nation.

Personally, I just want to live my life, share my life with my partner, and help her and her family to enjoy a better lifestyle. To be able to do that, I (and anyone else in my position) wil just have to adjust and adapt with whatever changes go on in the country. I fully expect to have to take some not so good along with the good over time.

As none of these were part of their culture or history, the concept would have to have been introduced by farangs. I hadn't mentioned any particular nationality, but if you have a guilty conscience...

I do agree with your last paragraph. If I make a start with the 'anti-yank rant', the thread would be closed so quick, so I'll leave that one alone.

It wasn't a farang country that sold the developing world on all these bloody pagan holidays, it was Hallmark!

[NanLaew]

Or you could go to that northern cesspit called Udon where all the foreigners THINK they are King and therefore superior

Wow.... who pissed in your cornflakes in Udon then?

Best wishes,

NL (aka King of Nong Bua)

[blizzard]

word is slowly leaking out farangs in villages r nuutnin but moneybags!

nothing wrong with this by the way, seems both giver and receiver like this arrangement.

[scotwumman]

Hi Blizzard always entertaining mail from your goodself but from what I

hear this year flights from uk to Thailand, internal flights etc. are beginning

to get to the givers and I can qualify this, after my last visit high season

last year from previous years experience but still a great experience.

Suffice to say I could not afford the same expense in the near future but

would not have missed it. Mind you I am middleaged lady -don't have

the same incentive maybe

[jumnien]

What a sunrise this morning over the palms and rice fields! The sky was awesome! Nothing wrong with Thailand. Read the newspaper for entertainment, but, my God, don't take it seriously; the folks who write that crap certainly don't.

[scotwumman]

Come on sunrise this is a windup, freezing cold here, only days till back to work time, miserable looking

sods in the supermarkets buying up all there is as if the stores wont be open for business as usual

tomorrow and you have sun sand and sea and the sunrise dont forget. From where the sun never rises

or sets

[blizzard]

im BFuddled by sctwummans posts................lol

as the thais say wot?

[scotwumman]

Gooooooood. Would hate to think you're Bfuddled by anything else at this time of the morning Blizzard

[trader1]

What is interesting is the number of farang who leave home looking for a clone of their own 'perfect' country. Why not just go to Brighton or Florida if that is what you want?

Edited December 25, 2007 by trader1

[midas]

I'm an American luk kreung and since childhood have been to LOS many, many times with family and have noticed a practically pandemic amount of corruption, a huge amount of 'gold digging' going on, along with ignorance, arrogant xenophobia, apathethic worldview, pathological snobbishness by the wealthier Thais, shallow media, and generally bad examples of behavior for future generations and visitors that are going to hold Thailand back from what I believe could be a truly better society.

I usually keep these opinions to myself and simply mark them down as signs of Thailand being another country that's still very much a developing society.

But I'm disappointed.

Is LOS going to change from these any time soon or is my dream of a nice society in Thailand something that could only happen in the distant future?

Many people would look at the USA today and say it is equally " messed up " in a different way -

eg. crime rate, racial tensions till very high, society only concerned about consumerism,

no family values etc etc

[WAERTH]

To be honest I do not see a decline in Thailand or the West.

I see a decline globally with people seemingly haven't learned anything from history. It all seems a bit like the end of the roaring twenties. Rightist governments taking hold around the globe, rising nationalism. Xenophobia on the rise everywhere. People calling to protect their own religions and race from those pesky foreigners labouring in "their" countries. Declining freedoms. Big Brother watching everything and everyone under the guise of protecting us.

Having studied the interbellum as a prelude to the last world war things look so eerily similar. History repeats itself.

Or did we learn enough this time round to stop things before they truly get out of hand???

I hope the last. But we life in interesting times. And this is not exclusive to Thailand. I see it all around the world.

One word about Thai xenophobia ..... if I see the way some non-Thais on this board talk about Thais I am not surprised they turn xenophobic. It is not just the Thais who turn xenophobic ..... have a look in the mirror

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year anyway

[pointofview]

Not a single fact. In fact, according to you, all facts are false propaganda put out by corporate mainstream media, except for the "special" facts that you alone know.

I bet you know "The Truth" about 9/11, the moon landings, alien abductions and the JFK assassination as well don't you?

Exactly my point - i dont know the truth about any of theses things - get it! No i thought not

Ofcourse i could quote statistics as to what is most commonly believed - but i prefer truth over consensous. I do feel for you: it must be difficult to be informed that you have no real opinion!

Edited December 25, 2007 by pointofview

[Theyreallrubbish]

Exactly my point - i dont know the truth about any of theses things - get it! No i thought not

Ofcourse i could quote statistics as to what is most commonly believed - but i prefer truth over consensous. I do feel for you: it must be difficult to be informed that you have no real opinion!

Exactly as I thought. Everyone else is wrong, only you know what the truth is and isn't.

All the departments in all the governments in the world are in on the conspiracy. The UN, the World Bank, The IMF, the World Health Organisation, all the universities in the world; all part of the multi-generational global conspiracy.

All the global media is in on it as well apart from a few brave truth seekers such as yourself

But like many mentally ill people you've built an internally consistent delusion. "The lack of evidence for my point of view PROVES the conspiracy! Why can't you see that?!? Its so OBVIOUS!! You must be stupid not to see it!!"