Exit Poll Results Show PPP Wins

[hammered]

Asia Sentinel ahs an interesting article on the power struggle. Well worth a read in its entirety imho:

http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?opti...2&Itemid=35

[hammered]

There are persistent rumors that Prem is about to step down as head of the Privy Council. Assuming this is more than just wishful thinking, it would at least go a long way to heal some of the rifts between many of the outstanding parties.

If this were to happen, it would be interesting to know if it were because of rift healing or because of a failure to play the situtation to a succesful conclusion. Naturally the reason would never be known for sure. If it actually happens must remain moot.

[sriracha john]

There are persistent rumors that Prem is about to step down as head of the Privy Council. Assuming this is more than just wishful thinking, it would at least go a long way to heal some of the rifts between many of the outstanding parties.

If only there were persistent rumors that Thaksin would step down as head of his organization. If it was more than just wishful thinking, it would heal many rifts between many facets of not just political parties, but the nation.

[sriracha john]

Meanwhile, Air Chief Marshal Chalit Pukpasook, the acting junta chief, dismissed rumours that Prem Tinsulanonda, president of the Privy Council, would step down.

"I don't see any reason why General Prem would resign as he was appointed by His Majesty the King," he said.

PPP sources said the Chart Thai, Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana, Matchima Thipataya and Pracharaj parties had accepted Cabinet posts allocated by the PPP.

The new line-up sees PPP Secretary-General Surapong Suebwonglee becoming prime minister instead of Samak Sundaravej, who would settle for president of Parliament, the sources said.

As for the Puea Pandin Party, there is no final decision yet because Vatana Asavahame, its chairman, has refused to join a PPP-led coalition government.

- The Nation

[Old Man River]

I am hearing it will be Samak and the PPP will remain. I really hope this is wrong, but ..... I never ever thought that Samak would be PM following his fiasco as Bangkok Governor where he gave up the last year. Add to this his fights with Gen. Prem. Only Thaksin could do this and only Thaksin would do this.

I hear the same, but as smeone on here said the macchiavellian manouvers could make this information redundant as it is passed around.

It would certainly seem to indicate a move away from a deal to a more assertive position by the PPP although it is their democratic right of course assunimg they have at least the 241 supporters. Maybe they will try to legislate the 111 bans and cases against Thaksin away as extra constitutional and thereby illegal as some have suggested.

I view it this way. Its a PPP led coalition which will consist of Chart Thai among others. No deal (currently) with Thaksin so he will want to keep his bulldog in place, albeit with a shorter leash. Banharn will bide his time, creating ill will within the PPP led coalition in an effort to oust Samak in favor of himself (Banharn). This, in essence, makes the Chart Thai an opposition party within the coalition (it will be interesting).

There will be demonstrations in Bangkok no doubt, although at present nobody has stepped up to lead (its premature anyway).

I haven't heard anything on Gen. Prem, but if memory serves me right, next in line would be Gen. Surayud.

[hammered]

Meanwhile, Air Chief Marshal Chalit Pukpasook, the acting junta chief, dismissed rumours that Prem Tinsulanonda, president of the Privy Council, would step down.

"I don't see any reason why General Prem would resign as he was appointed by His Majesty the King," he said.

PPP sources said the Chart Thai, Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana, Matchima Thipataya and Pracharaj parties had accepted Cabinet posts allocated by the PPP.

The new line-up sees PPP Secretary-General Surapong Suebwonglee becoming prime minister instead of Samak Sundaravej, who would settle for president of Parliament, the sources said.

As for the Puea Pandin Party, there is no final decision yet because Vatana Asavahame, its chairman, has refused to join a PPP-led coalition government.

- The Nation

Interesting and macchiavellian thought: Both Chart Thai and Matchima parties have had executives red carded. What happens if these two get disbanded?

[Plus]

I expect people calling on Thaksin to return as soon as possible, following his wife's example.

The problem for him is that he hasn't put his people in important positions yet, and if PPP fails to do so we might not see him for a long time.

The composition of the government is not important, there will be strong opposition only if Thaksin's meddling with judiciary becomes public.

A couple of options have been mentioned in the Nation.

The first is to annule junta's decree setting up Constitutional Tribunal. That way they don't need to issue amnesty, the court verdicts would simply become illegal.

That would not go down nicely with the public, but who cares, he has no choice but persevere. It's not unimaginable that he would be eventually murdered if another round of confrontation becomes unstoppable.

[hammered]

I expect people calling on Thaksin to return as soon as possible, following his wife's example.

The problem for him is that he hasn't put his people in important positions yet, and if PPP fails to do so we might not see him for a long time.

The composition of the government is not important, there will be strong opposition only if Thaksin's meddling with judiciary becomes public.

A couple of options have been mentioned in the Nation.

The first is to annule junta's decree setting up Constitutional Tribunal. That way they don't need to issue amnesty, the court verdicts would simply become illegal.

That would not go down nicely with the public, but who cares, he has no choice but persevere. It's not unimaginable that he would be eventually murdered if another round of confrontation becomes unstoppable.

Yes it will be interesting to see what they do. I think annuling a single decree of the Junta will be hard to do. Why not annul them all and argue they were all unconstitutional. That would be more logical. To annul a single decree will be obviously politcal. It will also probably invite constitutional court review as to whether it can be done and if it can be retrospective. Will PPP try to change the constitutional court line up? Previously they packed it as TRT although under immense pressure from other quesrters this eventually wasnt packed enough. Early attempts to do stuff like this could see big demos, and huge pressure on coaltion allies not to mention pressure on PPP MPs beholden to certain groups away from Thaksin. It could get messy. Or will someone make an eleventh hour deal. Time is running out for that.

[hammered]

I am hearing it will be Samak and the PPP will remain. I really hope this is wrong, but ..... I never ever thought that Samak would be PM following his fiasco as Bangkok Governor where he gave up the last year. Add to this his fights with Gen. Prem. Only Thaksin could do this and only Thaksin would do this.

I hear the same, but as smeone on here said the macchiavellian manouvers could make this information redundant as it is passed around.

It would certainly seem to indicate a move away from a deal to a more assertive position by the PPP although it is their democratic right of course assunimg they have at least the 241 supporters. Maybe they will try to legislate the 111 bans and cases against Thaksin away as extra constitutional and thereby illegal as some have suggested.

I view it this way. Its a PPP led coalition which will consist of Chart Thai among others. No deal (currently) with Thaksin so he will want to keep his bulldog in place, albeit with a shorter leash. Banharn will bide his time, creating ill will within the PPP led coalition in an effort to oust Samak in favor of himself (Banharn). This, in essence, makes the Chart Thai an opposition party within the coalition (it will be interesting).

There will be demonstrations in Bangkok no doubt, although at present nobody has stepped up to lead (its premature anyway).

I haven't heard anything on Gen. Prem, but if memory serves me right, next in line would be Gen. Surayud.

I think that is an accurate analysis. PPP also has a few of its own factions that could also be unpredictable, Chavalit's for instance. He had his guys run under PPP but made statements about he couldnt join the party as Thaksin would never change. The government will struggle to be stable. Trying to undo what the Junta did, influence the courts and run the economy while facing demos in Bangkok, and we shouldnt forget the farmers will also be wanting and expecting debt forgiveness etc especially after they have just backed the special one. I wonder how long Samak will last before being replaced by Surapong. Thaksin will ceetainly not want to give the power of PMship (house disolution and head of the new internal security laws) to a risky outsdier unless either forced or totally sure Banharn is in the pocket so to speak;)

The interesting thing if there is a vacancy on the PC is who will join it.

[ando]

I expect people calling on Thaksin to return as soon as possible, following his wife's example.

The problem for him is that he hasn't put his people in important positions yet, and if PPP fails to do so we might not see him for a long time.

The composition of the government is not important, there will be strong opposition only if Thaksin's meddling with judiciary becomes public.

A couple of options have been mentioned in the Nation.

The first is to annule junta's decree setting up Constitutional Tribunal. That way they don't need to issue amnesty, the court verdicts would simply become illegal.

That would not go down nicely with the public, but who cares, he has no choice but persevere. It's not unimaginable that he would be eventually murdered if another round of confrontation becomes unstoppable.

Yes it will be interesting to see what they do. I think annuling a single decree of the Junta will be hard to do. Why not annul them all and argue they were all unconstitutional. That would be more logical. To annul a single decree will be obviously politcal. It will also probably invite constitutional court review as to whether it can be done and if it can be retrospective. Will PPP try to change the constitutional court line up? Previously they packed it as TRT although under immense pressure from other quesrters this eventually wasnt packed enough. Early attempts to do stuff like this could see big demos, and huge pressure on coaltion allies not to mention pressure on PPP MPs beholden to certain groups away from Thaksin. It could get messy. Or will someone make an eleventh hour deal. Time is running out for that.

Simple solution there really. Just declare the current constitution null and void. Remove the opposition from Parliament altogether and set about making laws as the PPP pleases. Then set up the next election under conditions favourable to your chosen party. Unfortunately, you need to be in control of lots of soldiers with armed with tanks and guns to do it.

[sriracha john]

Unfortunately, you need to be in control of lots of soldiers with armed with tanks and guns to do it.

Install Thaksin's cousin, the former Armed Forces Chief, as Defense Minister (as had been referred to in previous post) and Voila' .... control

[CL0R0X]

with all this talk, you all still forget that the new appoint general at the moment just got his hand on power a few month back, do you really think he would just give it up for PPP to replace him just like that, try to replace him and you will have another coup. just like the old general Thaksin try to replace him with his own, the general aint gonna let it happen so he jump the gun.

leave the arm force alone and everything will be fine, mess with it PPP wont see power.

Edited January 13, 2008 by CL0R0X

[thaigene2]

Asia Sentinel ahs an interesting article on the power struggle. Well worth a read in its entirety imho:

http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?opti...2&Itemid=35

I'd agree with his last paragrpah that the elites (e.g all of them, inc TRT supporters) are entering what may (or may not) be the last phase of their struggle - and the hope of returning to the Liberal Democracy is slim (which we know was in name only both before and now, TRT and Democrat).

[thaigene2]

To me the best way to step back from all this would be for Samak to let one of the minority party leaders take the PM position, agree to the five conditions set out by the minority partner, have Prem resign as was suggested above, have the CNS disband - all of this to be declared simultaneously. The new minority government pledges to press ahead with sweeping reforms to the police (like in Northern Ireland), the judiciary, press ahead with TITV as a Public Broadcaster (commercial free - with five-year generous funding from the Government) with no political interference and its own Charter (like the BBC).

It's just a start - of course it won;t happen..

[younghusband]

Meanwhile, Air Chief Marshal Chalit Pukpasook, the acting junta chief, dismissed rumours that Prem Tinsulanonda, president of the Privy Council, would step down.

"I don't see any reason why General Prem would resign as he was appointed by His Majesty the King," he said.

- The Nation

Ahem, so was Thaksin.

[sriracha john]

Surapong denies negotiating PM seat with CNS

The Secretary-General of the People Power party (PPP) has rejected claims that he is in negotiations with the Council for National Security (CNS) for the prime ministerial seat. Surapong Suebwonglee dismissed rumours that he is in talks to replace PPP leader Samak Sundaravej as the new prime minister. “No matter what, the leader of any party that is heading the new government should be the prime minister,” he insisted. “We will be ready to resume discussion on the formation of a new government by next week,” he said.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=125094

[sriracha john]

Thailand starts by-elections in Northeast

BANGKOK -- Thailand started its first by-elections of last month's general election in the northeastern province of Nakhon Ratchasima on Sunday, to fill the three MPs (Member of Parliament) posts whose winners were disqualified by the Election Commission earlier.

Local television footage showed intense security were deployed for the by-elections.

Viravudh Songsai, chief of the Nakhon Ratchasima branch of the election commission, said earlier about 70 percent of eligible voters were expected to vote in the by-elections, slightly lower than the turnout achieved in the December 23 general election.

Unofficial results of Sunday's by-election are expected to come out at about 8:30 p.m. (1330 GMT).

The province's Constituency 3 was set to re-elect three MP posts after the election commission issued yellow cards to three candidates who had won during last month's general election for being involved in a vote-buying scam.

The three candidates, all from the People Power Party (PPP), are Boonlert Krudkhunthod, Linda Cherdchai and Prasert Chanruangthong.

In last month's general election, the PPP won a total of 233 ofthe 480 parliament seats, while the Democrat Party won 165, the Chart Thai party 37, Puea Pandin Party 24, Ruam Jai Thai Chart Pattana Party nine, Matchimathipataya Party seven and Pracharaj Party five.

However, the commission said it has got many reports of election fraud cases and it would rely on evidence to rule on how many red and yellow cards to be issued on electoral frauds.

According to the election law, a candidate who was issued with a red card will be disqualified in the by-elections, while a candidate with a yellow card still can re-contest the by-elections.

So far, a total of seven red cards and nine yellow cards have been issued to 16 candidates of the PPP, the Democrat Party, the Chart Thai Party and the Matchima Thipataya Party.

A second by-elections was expected to be held on Jan. 20 and after two rounds of by-elections, the first parliament meeting is scheduled to be held on Jan 22.

However, the election commission now is still focusing on a suspected election fraud case on Yongyuth Tiyaphairat, the Deputy Leader of the PPP. The commission said if he is red-carded, his PPP may face dissolution.

Yongyuth is an executive of the PPP. According to the Thai Election Law, a party can be ordered dissolution if any of its executives was found election cheating.

Last week, the PPP said it is not afraid of lawsuits seeking its dissolution. Its Deputy Leader Chalerm Yoobamrung said the PPP can find a new party or set up a new party in time for its MPs (Members of Parliament) to join.

Local reports said that leading members of the PPP are eyeing the Palang Pandin Thai Party (Thai Land Power Party) if the PPP is dissolved. It is said if the PPP is dissolved for either breaking the election or party laws, its MPs would switch to join the Palang Pandin Thai Party.

- Xinhua

Edited January 13, 2008 by sriracha john

[hammered]

I expect people calling on Thaksin to return as soon as possible, following his wife's example.

The problem for him is that he hasn't put his people in important positions yet, and if PPP fails to do so we might not see him for a long time.

The composition of the government is not important, there will be strong opposition only if Thaksin's meddling with judiciary becomes public.

A couple of options have been mentioned in the Nation.

The first is to annule junta's decree setting up Constitutional Tribunal. That way they don't need to issue amnesty, the court verdicts would simply become illegal.

That would not go down nicely with the public, but who cares, he has no choice but persevere. It's not unimaginable that he would be eventually murdered if another round of confrontation becomes unstoppable.

Yes it will be interesting to see what they do. I think annuling a single decree of the Junta will be hard to do. Why not annul them all and argue they were all unconstitutional. That would be more logical. To annul a single decree will be obviously politcal. It will also probably invite constitutional court review as to whether it can be done and if it can be retrospective. Will PPP try to change the constitutional court line up? Previously they packed it as TRT although under immense pressure from other quesrters this eventually wasnt packed enough. Early attempts to do stuff like this could see big demos, and huge pressure on coaltion allies not to mention pressure on PPP MPs beholden to certain groups away from Thaksin. It could get messy. Or will someone make an eleventh hour deal. Time is running out for that.

Simple solution there really. Just declare the current constitution null and void. Remove the opposition from Parliament altogether and set about making laws as the PPP pleases. Then set up the next election under conditions favourable to your chosen party. Unfortunately, you need to be in control of lots of soldiers with armed with tanks and guns to do it.

Although there are theoretical arguments to do away with a coup installed constitution albeit a tad complicated as it went to referendum. It does show the problems that can crop up when extra-constitutional acts like a coup are taken. And we shouldnt forget that the election was held under the new charter making the parliament illegal! Also any other edicts by the Junta can probably be undone by parliament but to make that decision retroactive may also bring about a court case. In practical terms anything the Junta did that PPP try to undo will almost certainly end up in the constitutional court or administrative court if it is retroactive in any way, which could leave us in a precarious situation. It really seems that right now any deal is missing and that the courts are not going to be under the "influence" of PPP, which makes a clash likely with maybe parliament legislating things that need court interpretation. It is a bit of a nightmare situation if it happens for a fledgling democracy.

[hammered]

Asia Sentinel ahs an interesting article on the power struggle. Well worth a read in its entirety imho:

http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?opti...2&Itemid=35

I'd agree with his last paragrpah that the elites (e.g all of them, inc TRT supporters) are entering what may (or may not) be the last phase of their struggle - and the hope of returning to the Liberal Democracy is slim (which we know was in name only both before and now, TRT and Democrat).

I agree with your sentiment. Sometimes this gets lost in the side taking.

[sriracha john]

Three more

EC slaps additional 3 yellow cards to Puea Pandin, PPP candidates

According to the Election Commisioner Mr. Sumet Upanisakorn, the EC has recently decided to disquality three more winning candidates by giving yellow cards against two winning candidates from Puea Pandin Party and another one from People Power Party.

The disqualified candidates from Puea Pandin Party are Meechai Jitpipat and Polapee Suwanchaee, two winning candidates of Nakhon Ratchasima's Constituency 6, whilst another PPP’s candidate who was given the yellow card is Surawit Polsomboon, a winning candidate of Chaiyaphum's Constituency 2.

- ThaiNews

===============================================================

more on the

EC confident first meeting of Lower House won't be delayed

BANGKOK -- Thailand’s Election Commission (EC) was optimistic the first meeting of the House of Representatives would be held as stipulated by the Constitution, said EC secretary-general Suthipol Thaweechaikarn.

After EC meeting on Sunday, Mr. Suthipol told journalists the EC planned to discuss Monday the endorsing of additional four or five winning candidates in the December 23 general election.

He also expressed confidence the EC would be able to endorse at least 95 per cent of the total 480 members of parliament, which would be sufficient for the first session of the House of Representatives or the Lower House to take place.

According to the Constitution, the first meeting of the House of Representatives must be held within 30 days after a general election, with a minimum of 95 per cent of elected MPs attending the first session.

Mr. Suthipol’s assurance was made following Sunday’s issuance of a yellow card to a winning elected MP in the northeastern province of Chaiyaphum who was a member of the People Power Party, on charges of handing out VCDs containing a speech by ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra as well as money to eligible voters.

A by-election in Chaiyaphum’s Constituency 2 would be held on January 17, said Mr. Suthipol.

The EC also agreed to issue yellow cards to two winning candidates of the Puea Pandin Party in Nakhon Ratchasima province’s Constituency 6, on charges of giving promises of money to eligible voters during the run-up to the December 23 general election, said Mr. Suthipol.

He added a date for the by-election in Nakhon Ratchasima’s Constituency 6 was yet to be decided on.

- MCOT

Edited January 13, 2008 by sriracha john

[Old Man River]

Open question to anyone who has thrown the phrase "elites" around loosely. Define Thai elites for me. Is is anyone from the original 20 or do people just call anyone with more money than they have an elite?

[Lilawadee]

Open question to anyone who has thrown the phrase 'elites' around loosely. Define Thai elites for me. Is is anyone from the original 20 or do people just call anyone with more money than they have an elite?

First of all, it's by no means thrown around 'loosely'. I use it when I mean a very specific group. Personally, I use it as a placeholder term, because going into more detail may be taken by some as being against the forum rules, and we wouldn't want to even risk breaking those now would we.

So you either get my opinion with these types of words and constructs, or you don't get it at all; a small sacrifice I'm sure you'll agree.

[Plus]

I use it when I mean a very specific group.

How specific? You seem to exclude lots of players on the "elite" side.

>>>

Thailand might not be ready to liberal democracy, the next best thing would be a government accountable to the people, and Democrats are far better at that than TRT/PPP.

If the "elites" want to see Democrats in power, it's the best available option at the moment.

[Ricardo]

Ricardo - what are you talking about? So the EC gives four yellow cards to PPP and gives one to the Democrats...and that somehow proves they are not biased against the PPP?

Correct. It shows that they are taking action against both main parties.

If they red card 60 PPP and 15 Democrats

Have they ? Not yet. Although they might - if that is the way the evidence pans out.

, and the latter forms a Government because of that then that's 'unbiased'?

The Democrats are a long way from forming a government, especially if they continue to lose candidates, I have said several times that I do expect the PPP to form the next government. Or are you aware of truly massive cheating by the PPP ?

Come on, it's gerrymandering, pure and simple. As clear a case as I've ever seen play out. So why ban Democrats too ?

From the latest case:

Thai election agency disqualifies more winning candidates

BANGKOK -- The Election Commission (EC) of Thailand issued two more red cards and two yellow cards against winning candidates of the Chart Thai Party and the People Power Party (PPP).

The commission said in a statement that two Chart Thai Party winning candidates in Chai Nat Province were disqualified by red cards and two PPP winning candidates in Udon Thani Province were disqualified by yellow cards.

And a 3rd party enters the 'Roll of Dishonour'. Further evidence that the EC is, as PPP-leaders claim, fair & unbiased.

Up to Monday, a total of five red cards were issued to three PPP and two Chart Thai Party candidates, while nine yellow cards were issued to eight PPP and one Democrat Party candidates.

Note that the (mainly PPP) yellow-cards simply have to 're-take' the election, and will probably win, but without cheating this time.

According to the election law, a candidate who was issued with a red card will be disqualified in the by-elections, while a candidate with a yellow card still can re-contest the by-elections.

- Xinhua

The clincher would be if the EC were to ban the PPP, as being merely nominees of the banned (for cheating) Thaksin & TRT, which would hardly be suprising, given the open admissions by Samak and other leaders of PPP, that this is in fact the case.

Nevertheless I don't see any evidence so far, of anything other than normal 'tidying-up' by the EC, of some of the grosser examples of cheating.

And I still hope (against hope ? We shall see) that they will not ban PPP outright, and the fair result, of a weak PPP-coalition government, will stand. Because that is what people voted for. Not a landslide for Samak/PPP/TRT/Thaksin, but an even split of the party-vote, and with the PPP ahead on the candidate-vote, due to the concentration of their vote in the North & North-East.

Matchima Thipataya MP candidate disqualified

Election Commissioner Sodsri Satayathum (สดศรี สัตยธรรม) discloses that a meeting between the Election Commission (EC) today has voted four to one for the disqualification of a winning MP candidate from the Matchima Thipataya party.

The red-carded candidate is Sunthorn Wilawan (สุนทร วิลาวัลย์) who contested the December 23 election in Constituency 1, Prachin Buri province.

The meeting will resume in the afternoon to review election complaints including those concerning deputy leader of the People Power party, Yonhyuth Tiyaphairat (ยงยุทธ ติยะไพรัช). Police have imposed stringent security measures at EC’s office.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 08 January 2008

At the risk of belabouring the point, this is the 4th different party, to receive a red-card from the EC, which all adds to the evidence that this is not some simple-minded jerrymandering of the vote, against the PPP, but shows the EC acting in the fair way the PPP acknowledge, by punishing candidates of whatever party who cheated.

EC slaps additional 3 yellow cards to Puea Pandin, PPP candidates

According to the Election Commisioner Mr. Sumet Upanisakorn, the EC has recently decided to disquality three more winning candidates by giving yellow cards against two winning candidates from Puea Pandin Party and another one from People Power Party.

And a 5th party, if I've not lost count by now, joins the Roll of Dishonour.

The disqualified candidates from Puea Pandin Party are Meechai Jitpipat and Polapee Suwanchaee, two winning candidates of Nakhon Ratchasima's Constituency 6, whilst another PPP’s candidate who was given the yellow card is Surawit Polsomboon, a winning candidate of Chaiyaphum's Constituency 2.

- ThaiNews

thaigene2, looking back to your original statement "it's gerrymandering, pure and simple. As clear a case as I've ever seen played out", would you yet agree that there is now ample evidence to the contrary ?

[blaze]

Open question to anyone who has thrown the phrase "elites" around loosely. Define Thai elites for me. Is is anyone from the original 20 or do people just call anyone with more money than they have an elite?

That's a good question- and I'm going to go out on a limb here- though I may well be wrong:

I think a better term than elites would be aristocracy. (Aristocrats aren't always the richest people in the country- but they often have had a lot of influence on who is 'allowed' to become rich- and that I think was the case in Thailand too). Traditionally they would have come, I suppose, from minor regional lords- rewarded for throwing their support to the central authority- and from the civil service -which functioned as a kind of interlocateur between the established aristocracy- closest to the seat of power and the bourgeoisie- These people were rewarded materially and socially by those in power- and repaid that trust with unswerving loyalty.

Eventually, the term would come to include rich 'arrivistes' who managed to successfully ingratiate themselves to the existing aristocracy - sort of like a private club wherein membership requires being guaranteed by existing members- nothing else- wealth, skill, etc matter so much as being veted.

So someone very wealthy, even possessing immense political power- would not nescessarily be part of this 'elite'. And would probably, unless having demonstrated subservience to that aristocracy, be suspect of seeking to ursurp it.

But for a more immediate indicator- and the one that kind of woke me up to the nature of the stuggle (as least as I came to see it) - remember the meeting in a restaurant during the hey day of the PAD, when a bunch of very connected women- with big (possibly blue) hair publicly denounced Thaksin?

So in American terms- bluebloods- Germans with 'von' attached to their names- British Lords- people who genuinely believe that they are the guardians of the nation. And have the percs to prove it.

I may well be wrong and would welcome being corrected by someone who actually DOES know what they are talking about.

Edited January 13, 2008 by blaze

[sbk]

Insulting posts have been deleted. Lets try to maintain a reasonable debate here without resorting to insults and abuse, thanks

[thaigene2]

Open question to anyone who has thrown the phrase "elites" around loosely. Define Thai elites for me. Is is anyone from the original 20 or do people just call anyone with more money than they have an elite?

Okay, well fair enough question - though I don't throw it around "loosely" either.

And you're right, is the dictionary definition the default? I don't know - but when i use the word 'elite(s)' I refer to "influence", and sometimes that's aristocracy, but sometimes it's money and mafia (the Jaopah system). But usuually (again to me) it refers to a combination of money and influence - the latter usually recevied through either corruption/intimidation, marraige into a business style family syndicate (chinese-style guanxi), aristocracy or links to it, or descendants of the Sakdena system of priviledge. Howz that?

And if it makes you feel better, I include Thaksin and his rich cronies in that group - some of whom come from a variety of the above groups. I've never suggested the elites are loyalists, if that's what you're getting at.

[cclub75]

Now, this is unfortunate... !

Disqualified PPP candidates recapture seats

The three People Power Party (PPP) candidates whose victories in the December general election in Nakhon Ratchasima were overturned by the Election Commission won again yesterฌday in a by-election.

The by-election was in the province's Constituency 3.

Boonlert Krutkhuntod polled 90,753 votes, Prasert Chanruangthong 88,176 and Linda Cherdchai 84,371 votes.

Turnout was 58 per cent, according to local election officials. In the December 23 election turnout was 73 per cent.

The Nation

The Junta is loosing face again. And again. And again. They must like it, right ? And what about the EC ? Any credibility left ? Look under the carpet...

The Comedy shall continue.

Edited January 13, 2008 by cclub75

[John K]

Now, this is unfortunate... !

Disqualified PPP candidates recapture seats

The three People Power Party (PPP) candidates whose victories in the December general election in Nakhon Ratchasima were overturned by the Election Commission won again yesterฌday in a by-election.

The by-election was in the province's Constituency 3.

Boonlert Krutkhuntod polled 90,753 votes, Prasert Chanruangthong 88,176 and Linda Cherdchai 84,371 votes.

Turnout was 58 per cent, according to local election officials. In the December 23 election turnout was 73 per cent.

The Nation

The Junta is loosing face again. And again. And again. They must like it, right ? And what about the EC ? Any credibility left ? Look under the carpet...

The Comedy shall continue.

All this could be a dead issue. This is much like a horse race, as there are several things that could provide the fatal blow to the PPP, but they still must go through the actions with the assumption they will not be dissolved. By this time next week, there could be a brand new playing field.

A bit off topic but Tony Clifton is a new dad. Coagulations!

[Old Man River]

Open question to anyone who has thrown the phrase "elites" around loosely. Define Thai elites for me. Is is anyone from the original 20 or do people just call anyone with more money than they have an elite?

Okay, well fair enough question - though I don't throw it around "loosely" either.

And you're right, is the dictionary definition the default? I don't know - but when i use the word 'elite(s)' I refer to "influence", and sometimes that's aristocracy, but sometimes it's money and mafia (the Jaopah system). But usuually (again to me) it refers to a combination of money and influence - the latter usually recevied through either corruption/intimidation, marraige into a business style family syndicate (chinese-style guanxi), aristocracy or links to it, or descendants of the Sakdena system of priviledge. Howz that?

And if it makes you feel better, I include Thaksin and his rich cronies in that group - some of whom come from a variety of the above groups. I've never suggested the elites are loyalists, if that's what you're getting at.

Thaigene2, Blaze, thanks for responding. Your responses do seem reasonable to me, but honestly if ten others responded, probably nine of these would also seem reasonable to me as I am not really sure who is in this group that so many on TV have vile contempt for. I would imagine that you two along with several others here in Bangkok have friends, acquaintances etc., that could fit these descriptions, but then they are anti-Thaksin, not pro junta and believe in democracy as we know it. This situation if far more complex than some think.