Fish Farming - Need More Information

[bubbaba]

Hello again. I don't know where to put this for sure so I am just doing a new topic. I just re-read every post/article on Ponds and Fish Farming on The Farming Forum, 19 pages, and now I am brain dead - there is a lot of information there.

I read with great interest about the experiment in which waste water from catfish tanks was used for nile talapia with no other food being added. For sure the way to go on feed cost if there is not other associated problems. (I am still trying to download the reference given. My computer is sorry). I think this was from a post by Tim207 @ 2006-10-27.

I also read where I think Somtham, same date, said that all of his fish ponds drained to a single settling pond. We don't feed the fish in the settling pond and they only get waste water from the other ponds. Again sounds good to me.

I have been thinking about this and I wonder if the following would work.

Pump water from the well to the Catfish tank and feed them well, then pump the catfish water to the talapia tank as the only food for them and finally pumping the talapia water to my main pond and stocking a small amount of mixed fish and again providing no food for them, only waste water.

If I only had to add supplemental feed as necessary it seems fish could be raised without a large feed bill. I don't know. I am new to this type of farming and trying to learn fast because soon I will be building the tanks, pond/s etc.

I plan to build fish tanks like chris.B @ 2006posted with pictures in his topic: "Our Fish Farming Experiment - small scale intensive fish farming." Only difference is I do not plan to do intensive fish farming. I want to learn first, provide food for the family and if possible at least break even. Maybe I can get rich later. LOL

I plan to start with pla duk, pla nin, and tap tin.

This is approximately 16 months since the above posts. What worked great, failed,etc.? Has anyone had any disease problems using the waste water? Does anyone have any comments, information, whatever, good/bad? I need to know and thank you very much.

[Gary A]

Well Bubba, I have learned one GOOD lesson. Live on or beside your pond or you will have NO fish. Other than that, I know very little.

[joeuk1]

Well Bubba, I have learned one GOOD lesson. Live on or beside your pond or you will have NO fish. Other than that, I know very little.

Gary have seen u post many times about the pond/lake that was emptied , how big was this pond ? from my experience its impossible to empty a pond/lake of fish by netting . If anyone is building a pond/lake and they put an island in the middle there is not a chance in hel_l that pond/lake could ever be emptied by netting . We are at the moment digging 3 ponds 2 x 50 metres wide by 110 mtre long and the other 100 metres wide by 160 mtrs long from past experience the bigger pond ( with island ) could be netted day and nite and it could never be cleaned out of fish .

JB

[Gary A]

Well Bubba, I have learned one GOOD lesson. Live on or beside your pond or you will have NO fish. Other than that, I know very little.

Gary have seen u post many times about the pond/lake that was emptied , how big was this pond ? from my experience its impossible to empty a pond/lake of fish by netting . If anyone is building a pond/lake and they put an island in the middle there is not a chance in hel_l that pond/lake could ever be emptied by netting . We are at the moment digging 3 ponds 2 x 50 metres wide by 110 mtre long and the other 100 metres wide by 160 mtrs long from past experience the bigger pond ( with island ) could be netted day and nite and it could never be cleaned out of fish .

JB

The pond is about 15 by 40 meters. My wife always feeds the fish on the one end so I think they stay close to that end. There are still fish in there but I can assure you they are thinned out considerably. The pond was originally stocked pretty well. The pond is fairly new so no vegetation to slow netting.

[slapout]

Bubba: have you seen anyone use crank type telephone or other forms of electrial fishing devices? They are quite common here in villages and are used to supplement the income, not table fare, I dont begudge a cane pole to catch supper, but they can and will clean out a unattended pond, as Gary has mentioned, overnight

[bubbaba]

Bubba: have you seen anyone use crank type telephone or other forms of electrial fishing devices? They are quite common here in villages and are used to supplement the income, not table fare, I dont begudge a cane pole to catch supper, but they can and will clean out a unattended pond, as Gary has mentioned, overnight

I live on one rai. My bedroom is on the back side of the house as is the pond. The pond being less than 200 feet from my back door. The fish tanks would/will be even closer to the house. I have a nice dog with a bad attitude towards people at night. I too, have a bad attitude to people roaming around in the dark at night on my property. I do plan to put a nice looking pole light (2 of them) in the back of the house. I have one in the front. The lights really make your yard/garden look great at night. The light also helps to keep unwanted people away. The light also makes the target easier to see. I also have a cement wall, only 5 ft high, around my yard and house. I live in my yard/garden as much as in my house. I don't think the pond will ever be unattended.

[Gary A]

Bubba: have you seen anyone use crank type telephone or other forms of electrial fishing devices? They are quite common here in villages and are used to supplement the income, not table fare, I dont begudge a cane pole to catch supper, but they can and will clean out a unattended pond, as Gary has mentioned, overnight

I live on one rai. My bedroom is on the back side of the house as is the pond. The pond being less than 200 feet from my back door. The fish tanks would/will be even closer to the house. I have a nice dog with a bad attitude towards people at night. I too, have a bad attitude to people roaming around in the dark at night on my property. I do plan to put a nice looking pole light (2 of them) in the back of the house. I have one in the front. The lights really make your yard/garden look great at night. The light also helps to keep unwanted people away. The light also makes the target easier to see. I also have a cement wall, only 5 ft high, around my yard and house. I live in my yard/garden as much as in my house. I don't think the pond will ever be unattended.

Bubba, your one rai must be quite large. A Thai rai is about 131 feet by 131 feet or 40 by 40 meters.

[chownah]

Bubba: have you seen anyone use crank type telephone or other forms of electrial fishing devices? They are quite common here in villages and are used to supplement the income, not table fare, I dont begudge a cane pole to catch supper, but they can and will clean out a unattended pond, as Gary has mentioned, overnight

I live on one rai. My bedroom is on the back side of the house as is the pond. The pond being less than 200 feet from my back door. The fish tanks would/will be even closer to the house. I have a nice dog with a bad attitude towards people at night. I too, have a bad attitude to people roaming around in the dark at night on my property. I do plan to put a nice looking pole light (2 of them) in the back of the house. I have one in the front. The lights really make your yard/garden look great at night. The light also helps to keep unwanted people away. The light also makes the target easier to see. I also have a cement wall, only 5 ft high, around my yard and house. I live in my yard/garden as much as in my house. I don't think the pond will ever be unattended.

Bubba, your one rai must be quite large. A Thai rai is about 131 feet by 131 feet or 40 by 40 meters.

or 10 metres by 160 metres...or....

Perhaps the important point is that "less than 200 feet" can mean 100 ft. or even 50 ft.....or even......

I guess bubbaba isn't looking for information about security although I agree with Gary A that this is something that should not be overlooked.....we have a problem of people coming and fishing in one of our ponds too.

About nutrient recycling: First let me say that I don't know much about raising fish so I may be wrong on some things. When you feed the catfish the food they don't eat and their waste will get recycled into the next pond. I believe that these things (wasted foo0d and fish waste) go into that pond mostly as nutrient that is available to very tiny animals and plants which first assimilate it into their bodies and then their bodies are eaten by bigger animals and so on until it makes its way into the bodies of the fish in the secnd tank which in your scenerio would be tilapia. I think that the thing is that the tilapia do not eat the waste food from the catfish tank nor do they eat the catfish waste....these things are first eaten by the smaller critters and then etc. These smaller critters can be fed just as well by putting manure into the second tank instead of the catfish waste and surplus food. This doesn't mean that the idea is bad but I want to point out is that to grow catfish and "feed them well" as you call it would not be cost effective if "feed them well" means to give them surplus food or richer food than necessary because after the catfish get done with their food it is no longer the high nutrient value expensive feed you purchased but rather a low value mineral nutrient source which could be replaced with barnyard manures......so.....to buy expensive catfish feed and give it in surplus to the catfish thinking that the waste will be put to good use is incorrcect thinking. You would be better to feed the catfish only as much as they can benefit from and then buy some cheap barnyard manure to put in to the tilapia tank to feed the little critters which the talipia will then feed on....it works out to be cheaper that way. The waste water from the catfish will be good for input to the tilapia pond (why waste the degraded nutrients) but enriching the water with surplus catfish feed is not economical (I think).....and there is the possibility that disease in the catfish tanks could be spread to the tilapia I suppose.

Again...I know very little about raising fish.

Chownah

Edited December 26, 2007 by chownah

[bubbaba]

Thanks for the info Chownah.

Sorry I did not make myself clear about "feeding well". I meant using regular catfish food that would be cleaned up in ten mins or so and no more.

You are right about the possibility of disease. I too worry about that one. Maybe there is a water test that can be taken before transferring the water. I am still researching so I don't know yet.

With or without the waste water, can talapia be raised only by adding manures too get enough feed for the talapia, or would I still need to feed the talapia some?

I am aware of the problems with fish pouchers(however you spell it) in Thailand. Muddy the pond. use an electric charge, bright light submerged, chumminmg the water, etc. Been there, done that. I like fishing for trout with gold fish best. For sure you can catch some big ones. Note: Don't get caught in the US doing it that way. 5555. I may eat these words some day, but, I don't think they can get to my pond. Too many eye's and lights are watching. My wife's poor cousin w/family work for me and watch my property. I really live on about 40 rai but I can only put my stuff on this one rai. Mother in law lives next door, 3 meters away and my wife's three poor brother's do bite. I am really surrounded by family and life time friends of the family who all know about the pond and that they are welcome to eat from it for free. I really feel that an outsider would suffer much if he was that stupid. But, as I said, some day I may eat those words because I have an empty pond with no fish. LOL.

Thanks man. Any more advice from you or anyone is welcome. I love it. I still am dumb and need to learn more before I stock the fish.

[allcladrad]

Hi,

I have a small pond that I use to raise tilapia, pacu and barimundi. It is not a commercial opeation. The oldest fish will be 3 in February.

Tilapia will eat almost any plant, but if none are available they eat algae, which will grow naturally in any pond, more sun more algae. They are self sufficient in that respect. The algae is a limiting factor in terms of numbers and size as well as in taste.

Tilapia grow quite rapidly, being marketable at about five months. I bought mine from the Gov fishery at 1/2 baht a piece. Supposed to be 99% male, which are larger than female.

Thai ponds are usually designed to seine for harvesting. They feed until the fish reach the desired size then net the fish. Some drain and clean the ponds some just refill and start the next batch.

I have a neighbor who farms, on a small scale, catfish in 10 concrete tanks. She added dirt to start a bacteria culture, filled them with water and stocked her fish, she staggered the stocking in two week intervals so she had a regular income. Upon sale she empied the tank, cleaned, re dirted and re stocked. A middleman came around every other week and collected her fish. She is in Sweden now so what you see is all I know.

I didn't live at my pond for the first 15 months and theft was high, one guy working a cast net took 60 two pound tilapia in one night. I only know that because he tried to sell them to a man I know. Every pond owner I know has experienced theft. One guy used my hoe to dig my worms to catch my fish, which he cooked on my barbeque then used my bucket to take the rest of his catch.

If I were going to do it for money I would first secure a market, determine the price and work from there. If available visit a Gov fishery and see what they have available, dry season is a limiting factor as not many fish spawn during that time. Try as best you can to get a handle on the cost of the entire operation. Lots of info on the web re amount of food required, pumping water can be expensve, do you plan to do the work or hire? will you involve a middleman or wholesale or retail yourself? Again lots of aquaculture info on the net, plus the Gov fishery is extremey helpful, just ask.

[bubbaba]

Bubba: have you seen anyone use crank type telephone or other forms of electrial fishing devices? They are quite common here in villages and are used to supplement the income, not table fare, I dont begudge a cane pole to catch supper, but they can and will clean out a unattended pond, as Gary has mentioned, overnight

I live on one rai. My bedroom is on the back side of the house as is the pond. The pond being less than 200 feet from my back door. The fish tanks would/will be even closer to the house. I have a nice dog with a bad attitude towards people at night. I too, have a bad attitude to people roaming around in the dark at night on my property. I do plan to put a nice looking pole light (2 of them) in the back of the house. I have one in the front. The lights really make your yard/garden look great at night. The light also helps to keep unwanted people away. The light also makes the target easier to see. I also have a cement wall, only 5 ft high, around my yard and house. I live in my yard/garden as much as in my house. I don't think the pond will ever be unattended.

Bubba, your one rai must be quite large. A Thai rai is about 131 feet by 131 feet or 40 by 40 meters.

Hi GaryA - You are correct. I didn't know the exact measurments before so I did a measure today. I came up with this. Front on street side 24.61 meter. Back side of property 26.46 meter. From front to back the left side of the property is 72.92 meters and the right side is 79.07 meters. I came up with approximately l900 square meters. I am not the greatest at math so correct me if I am off. I also measured from the pool to the back side of my house, my bedroom window. 111 feet. If I remove a small clump of bamboo and enlarge the pond as my wife and I are thinking about, the pond will only be 90 feet from the window. I make the dog stay out side at night. So she sleeps as close to us as she can--right under that window.

[bubbaba]

Thanks for the information allcladrad. I really like the catfish plan the lady was using. My mother in law might like that idea, get rich, then go away too! LOL did I really say that? She is not really that bad, just needs a new farm income. At present she is one of many who burn old rubber tires for fuel in order to steam her mushroom houses. BAD. They will not change unless we can show them another, better way to make money.

I have no plans for commercial unless my helping others, hobby, fishing for myself, etc. turns out good and I then see that maybe I could make a profit. Too break even would suit me. I live in a poor village and on this street where I live is many relatives and lifetime friends of my wife. The plan is to raise fish for FUN and have plenty FREE FOOD for family and friends and of course I love to fish. Even if this costs me some, small bhat, it is ok.

My biggest problem is lack of knowledge on how to build a pond, maintain a pond, raise fish, etc. That's the reason I have read every thing on this forum and am still looking for information.

I see you don't have to buy expensive feed for pla nin and pla tap tim. Simply raise enough algae, pyto and zooplankton. How much is enough? How much is too much? How do you tell? Once you have started the growth how do you maintain that growth--is the fish poo enought to keep it going or do I need to add more manure at different times? What about ammonia build up and or solid waste? Does one have to drain and clean the pond on a regular bases or can it be balanced so as to be sort of self sufficient?

The cement pond, (maybe another type of liner) will be 2 meters deep. 1.5 meter after backfilling with .5 meter soil plus manure. Per square meter of pond surface - how much manure should I add to get growth started?

How often do you add fresh water or change waterin the pond other then to bring up the level?

How do you balance all of this? How can I start the pond and then let it care for itself? I just want to sit there with a fishing rod in my hand.

[chownah]

Bubbaba,

Google "fertilize pond manure".

Chownah

[allcladrad]

I avoided catfish because I didn't know what I would be getting, predators or herbivores, where I am catfish are catfish. So I opted for tilapia grow fast and mild flavor. With the proper conditioning they are easy to catch. Yes they will exist on algae alone and with Thai sun algae will reproduce to sustain them. They seem to adjust to the conditions and if you fish try to establish a range where your remove a medium size while returning the largest and smallest. But, algae gives them a very fishy taste. Feeding pellets daily will eliminate that problem.

My pond is considerably deeper than you plan but the fish will be fine in a meter or more, less can be bad. The problem with concrete and liners is the lack of vegetation, but the tilapia will eat almost all of that anyway. I am going to guess that where you are you will be topping off the pond on a regular basis, city water may contain harmful chemicals and well water contains little if any oxygen. During the dry season my pond will lose an inch a day to evaporation. Shade will reduce that but shade reduces algae, shade would be helpful with all fish except tilapia, they are famous for keeping it in check.

The amount of waste build up will correspond directly to the amount of fish you have. I stocked 250 fish and within five months had a possible 500 pound monster to deal with. 3 years later I am looking at over a 1000 pounds, so the waste will become an issue. With a concrete or lined pond you can drain and clean, many Thais drain at the end of the rain and let it refill when the rain starts. The yuck on the bottom will make good planting soil.

During the rains you can pump the bottom water out and use the rain to refill and that will extend the life of your pond. There are pumps called trash pumps that will also pump some of the sludge.

In the beginning if left alone for two weeks the water will develop enough zooplankton to stock your 1 1/2" fish.

The dirt and fertilizer are for catfish, remember fertilizer feeds everything and without tilapia algae can get out of control almost over night. Thai use a bucket full, how big or how many who knows, but animal waste is pretty powerful.

My pond in around a rai and I feed about 4 kilos a day, 25% protein at 480baht for 40 kilos.

I have pacu which if you are interested in exciting fishing will fit the bill. They are strong, fast, jump and have teeth. They have a firm white meat and do not reproduce in ponds, which allows you to manage their numbers.

With fish, if you have too many they will stunt so they need to be managed. Keeping a fishing log will help; measure and weight them and it will give you and idea of where you are. Also, hand feeding will give you some idea.

Balancing a pond is a difficult proposition; at some point the waste will over come the ponds ability to deal with it. Catfish and tilapia do not need very much in the way of clean water, they are both hardy and will survive well in almost any backyard pond.

I grow the tilapia for friends and neighbors and the pacu fishing.

[bubbaba]

Chownah, Thanks man. I googled "fertilize pond manure". Great information there. I have been reading and copying for over two hours now. Brain dead again. Thank you.

[bubbaba]

allcladrad, just read all of that good info. Thanks.

My pond will be 1.5 meter deep after I back fill with .5 meter dirt. I could make the pond deeper if I wanted. Is .5 meter of dirt enough to get plants to grow well? I also plan to plant some type of surface plant like water lettuce, kang-kong. I am still researching that. Planting in/on water is also new to me. I am an old dirt farmer. Something green on the surface would make the pond look good, but not so much as to block out the sun and the fish could eat it to. Any ideas on that?

Water comes from two sources. All rain water, except for one downspout, goes to the pond. We also have a well with plenty of water about 35 meters deep. When I look in I can see the water about 10 meters down. I need to buy a pump soon. Again any ideas are welcome.

If I never plan to empty the pond of all fish and water, will I be ok to pump from the bottom of the pond and add fresh water to the top from time to time. I already know the stuff from the bottom of the pond is great for the garden. Since our pond is also to help beautify the back yard my wife wants a fountain. You know water shooting up every where. Boy o boy - more evaporation, cost elec LOL. It will or should help aireate the pond.

How much feed would you use to supplement their algee diet to keep from having strong tasting fish. Maybe only 20 percent of daily recommended feed.

How deep is your pond? What is a pacu fish? Good eating? What type of pump should I buy to pump out the goodies from the bottom of the pond?

I assume you live in Thailand, north, east, south middle? I live near Korat.

Thanks man.

[allcladrad]

Hi,

1 meter is about the deepest a plant will grow, there are exceptions. Dirt at the bottom will be a constant source of cloudy water, catfish and carp are usually bottom feeders and stir up the mud.

Try http://www.thaifishingguide.com/ they have a lot of fish info including pictures. Pacu is an aggressive eater and it and tilapia play havoc with plants.

Fountains are not very effective with areation, but do look nice. As far as maintaining the pond the bottom pump refill should work for quite a while. Just pay attention to the water quality and any fish deaths. The worst water quality will be at the end of the hot/dry season, . so that is when to be most careful. Monitor water color, smell and fish action and you should be ok. If in doubt pump and fill. The best, cheapest, time for pumping will be during the rain.

Again, a caution on fertilizer, it is easy to over do. I would hold off, Thailand provides a lot of food naturally. An ecosystem will naturally develop, usually in two weeks or so. Fingerlings feed on the plankton and zooplankton that develop in that two weeks, they add to the system and more food becomes available. You will find things growing in your pond that will amaze you wondering how they got there.

If you want to stock predator fish, then you need to look at an overall stocking plan, you will need fish for them to eat and a way to manage the level of both.

For vegetation I am using small planters along side of the pond and several floating islands. I have vetiver http://www.vetiver.org/ growing on the islands and legume in the planters. The fish eat both but both grow rapidly.

I feed my fish by tossing as much as they can eat in five minutes. I am at 4 to 4 1/2 kiols a day, but I have a lot of fish. Your taste buds will also be helpful with the tilapia. I use 25% protein but you can buy cheaper 15% and everybody will still be fine.

Pacu are very tasty, and they get big, my 3 year olds are 9 pounds and if they were the only ones in the pond they would probably be 12, but they must share the food with the tilapia.

The pump for the bottom is called a trash pump meaning it can pump some materials besides water. Don't know the name in Thai. My pond was 5 meters at the deepest point, an unintentional depth, my macro guy went crazy and as usual there was a misunderstanding.

I live south in Chumpon, a little place called Thung Wae Laen. I am in an abandoned rice paddy so I am on low ground, in the same type well you have, my water would be about a foot from the top right now. Very different situations. Your biggest expense is going to be water and the electricity to pump it. I would wonder if my well would support my needs and the needs of the pond. My evaporation rate is about an inch a day, but for 2 to 3 months during the hot seasom I get about 1/2 inch from ground water so my net loss is 1/2 inch and I still wind up nearly a meter low at the end of the dry season. I suggest that you consider a few shade trees, if you are going with concrete you can plant pretty close, the liner will not be so forgiving.

[allcladrad]

This is a pacu

Edited December 29, 2007 by allcladrad

[bubbaba]

This is a pacu

Thanks for the photo. I did some reading on this one since it is the first time I have ever seen it. I plan to have a few in my pond if I ever get to that stage of life. How much do they cost here in Thailand? How long to pan size?

There is a salt water fish called "snook" in the US and south. The Mexicans call it "robolo". Have you or anyone ever heard of it in the waters off off Thailand. A great fighter when hooked and delicious in the frying pan.

Thank you for all of the other information. I am still planning.

[allcladrad]

I saw some mention in one of the Thai fishing sites, My experience with saltwater fishing has been bad, I fished the coast from the beach. I have a salt/freshwater fish called barramundi that you might look at, both it and the pacu can be bought through the Gov. I paid 1/2 baht for the barramundi and 3 baht for the pacu from a private bealer. The dealer sells larger fish, 2 to 3" while the govs are 1/2 to 1 1/2", the pacu takes about 5 months to eatable.

My dad used to fish snook in south Texas, not much of an eating fish as I remember.

[ozzydom]

Bubba, Open Nam Sai Farms website at www.tilapiathai.com click on "manual" and you will find a publication that will tell you all you would wish to know about raising Tilapia .

Ozzy