Speaking Bad English

[lewishamilton]

I often find my self speaking English poorly. Strangely, these occurences usually coincide with excessive consumption of alcoholic beverages.

[mrtoad]

Mr Toad, many posts are off the subject so to speak, Must have hit a sore spot. Travel 2003 my reference to ALL was to those who don't make an effort.

As to bad English, have a look at some of the posts, some people even have a problem speaking the Queens English correctly.

Not at all dear, I just think that you're initial statement was very aroggant, patronising and generally sweeping. Thank you for clearing that up, and no you didn't hit a sore spot at all.

Edited December 31, 2007 by mrtoad

[PeaceBlondie]

If by "the Queen's English" we only mean proper, educated English usage that any native speaker with a tenth grade education ought to speak, that's fine. Not exactly as the Duke of Edinburgh might prefer, but standard, received English that would be understood in Ireland, USA, Australia, Singapore, and Ubon Ratshit..

We've got a CD on the stereo right now, by the late, great Thai singer, Kittikhun Chiansong. The boyfriend asked me to evaluate his English. Kittikhun copied Glen Campbell and Willie Nelson well enough, but for some reason messed up on John Denver (who all had a country music Oklahoma/Arkansas/Texas accent). Generally, the Thai copyists often can mimic the exact pronunciations of the native speakers of English, better than we could!

Not all native speakers have attended Oxford, as Kris Kristofferson and Bill Clinton did. But it always amuses me when that New Englander George W. Bush lays on a heavy West Texas accent when talking officially. Ah cain hahdly speek lahk thaat mahseyalf.

///Added: but seriously, more on topic, we only confuse the Thais if we don't speak clear English. They're not going to judge our region accent; they just need a model of good speech.

[LaoPo]

///Added: but seriously, more on topic, we only confuse the Thais if we don't speak clear English. They're not going to judge our region accent; they just need a model of good speech.

Allow me to jump in PeaceBlondie.

A lot of -English speaking- people forget that it is extremely difficult for Thai people to even understand the 'kind' of English they are spoken to. Is it English-English, Scottish, Welsh, Cockney, US (with so many different dialects) Australian, NZ....??? ...........I could go on.

Apart from that, most Thai never ever read the words -or saw them spelled- they heard from so many different English speaking tourists/expats, whatever.

On top of that the Thai are confronted with more than a dozen European nations' tourists who are trying to speak English as well (to the Thai)...don't make me laugh...

Next to that, most Thai don't and didn't have the money to study English...

Result: the funny kind of English we are confronted with and which we adapted as well as it is far more simple for all of us to speak that kind of funny language.

If it's the best solution ? No I don't think so, but it will take a lot of time. In Thailand's case 2 more generations before that funny language fades away and when the government decides to have English study as an obligation, starting at age 4 or 5 at the kinder garden.

In the meantime we can try to speak 'normal' English...but if it helps, without spelling every single word or sentence to Thai.....? hmmmm...I don't think so, apart from more educated people.

Edit; as I forgot:

Do you talk to other English speakers as if they are Thai?

Normally not (but I'm not native English speaking) but sometimes it's kind of fun. However I can understand that some people do this as they are so used to it. I call it Cameleon talking.

Some people have a feeling for languages but most people don't and will NEVER learn to speak in the right tone of the language they're trying to speak, no matter how hard they try. (Inspector Clouseau springs to mind.... )

It has to do with the 'tongue' they use since a baby. People from small countries (like mine) were forced to learn several foreign languages and quite a few can speak them as native speakers of the foreign country.

Anyway, interesting subject.

LaoPo

Edited December 31, 2007 by LaoPo

[legag]

I do speak English with Thais only if they have grown up oversea (like myself). It's easier to get to the point. As for Thai thai, waste of time speaking with them in English as it takes forever to get what I want and why speak English with those who don't understand, unless they wanna practice English with me. Associate with Tinglish speakers ruin your mother-tongue English that is absolutely true. Evey now and then I talk to my peeps back in States they're like 'What are you trying to say? Speak English Gaggy!!!'

Happy New Year.

Edited December 31, 2007 by legag

[mrtoad]

As it has been said before, by several posters, the use of any language with any speakers shoud be kept clear and simple, e.g. Thai/English, English/English etc. There is nothing worse than listening to someone trying to look clever by over complicating the use of language.

The other problem that as native speakers we need to realise is the different dialects, even myself speaking to a freind from Scotland, Newcastle, Liverpool,Wales,London, Australia, etc, etc there are varying uses of the language which can be pretty confusing. The interesting thing about "Tinglish" is, does it really exist? I say this becasue of the large range of influences on the English language from non native speakers as well in Thailand, who use English as a standard medium of commuinication.I'd say that it is to broad for a real clear definition of it, unlike "Singlish", which is almost a language in it's own right, although the S'pore government does occasionaly have it's Good English campaigns.

[rosier]

its even rougher for me to quit saying "alai nah?" when i get back to farang-land.

of couse living in Singapore only compounds the difficulty. They speak english so well, it has become its own language

I disagree that Singaporeans speak English well. When we have Singapore passengers on our boat, I have to ask my husband in Thai what they are saying to me so I can answer. For him, their accent is understandable but for me, impenetrable.

[bernie66]

“Please stop the baby talk”

Leaving out a conjunction or pronoun from your sentence does not help someone understand you better! The only thing it does is make you and them sound like idiots. If you don’t believe me then try a little experiment of your own. Stop speaking like an idiot for one month. If in fact, it is more difficult for your associates to understand you then it makes sense that they will request you revert back to your cute little baby talk babble so that they can better understand you. Or that when they speak to you they will start repeating everything you say as to clarify what you have just said. The sad truth of the matter is that the only reason they didn’t understand you the first time you spoke was because they were ignoring you while you were running your suck. If you speaking this way to your spouse then you are doing them a great injustice and leaving them open for ridicule if they are ever to go home with you. You need to be flogged and canned because they think they are supposed to talk like this. I know sooner or later I will have to take my wife to the United States so off the top of my head here some reasons why I feel it is important that she learns English the correct way.

1. My wife not being able to express herself correctly in the United States will have a negative impact on the way people treat her. She will not understand why white women make fun of her and don’t take her seriously.

2. It will prolong the effects of culture shock leaving her susceptible to feelings of depression, isolation, and social un-acceptance.

3. My wife has a higher education than I do. This will never be perceived by anyone who hears me talking to her as if she is a 4 year old.

4. When I talk to her in public it will give the impression that she is my uneducated mail order bride that I talk to as if she were my pet. Thus people I meet for the first time will have negative attitudes towards me.

5. Hearing us talk in such a manner will make other people speak to her this way. Thus creating a vicious cycle and inviornment that never allows her to learn to express herself correctly.

6. Not being able to use or understand conjunctions will impair her ability to understand or give directions if she is ever lost, broken down in a car, or in need of assistance or help.

7. Predators and mentally ill men will see her as an easy target if she sounds as if she is from another country.

8. JOB INTERVIEWS, RACESISM, DESCRIMINATION!

When I met my wife three years ago we communicated with a dictionary. She could not speak a word of English. Now her English is better than any one she knows. Sense the first day we met I have gone out of my way to speak in complete sentences and correct every word out of her mouth. To this day, every time I correct her she thanks me. If she ever got annoyed or fed up with me doing this I would stop but she has never given me this impression. I think making an effort to correct your friends and family will break your selves of this annoying habit of murdering our language. I think you all will find that they will be grateful when you correct them. After all, don’t you think a man that went around saying kha for 2 years would be grateful to the person who finally told him that only women spoke this way?

[meadish_sweetball]

bernie, kudos to you if you took the time to write that yourself.

However, if you are copying material from an outside source, please indicate which one, otherwise we will have to erase it. There are copyright laws to be observed here.

[grtaylor]

its even rougher for me to quit saying "alai nah?" when i get back to farang-land.

of couse living in Singapore only compounds the difficulty. They speak english so well, it has become its own language

I disagree that Singaporeans speak English well. When we have Singapore passengers on our boat, I have to ask my husband in Thai what they are saying to me so I can answer. For him, their accent is understandable but for me, impenetrable.

I think the 'problem' with foreigners (i.e. non-Singaporeans) understanding Singapore English is that it has moved way beyond just being an 'accent' to being a distinct dialect, with its own vocabulary and grammatical constructions (influenced a lot by Chinese grammar).

The main difference between that and Thaiglish, is that Singaporeans use their English as a real language to communicate with each other, whereas Thaiglish is only used for communication between Thais and non-thais.

G

[PeaceBlondie]

I'm writing a novel in which the world's most eloquent speaker of English hides away in northern Thailand for a year, teaching English to Hill Tribe students. He never baby talks to anybody (why should he?). The longer he lives with them, the better their English becomes (as well it should!). When he finally comes out of hiding, his Thai partner not only speaks English very well, but tells the best Thai jokes in Thailand!

[RAZZELL]

How long before "Tinglish" becomes the world's "lingua franca"?

RAZZ

[Lancashirelad]

One thing i am completely unable to get my head around. How can anyone possible teach English to a Thai & for the Thai person to understand what they (the pupil) is saying (and that's the important bit) unless the teacher is fluent in Thai?

Anyone can be taught to repeat what they hear, just like a mynah bird! but unless you are able to tell them in Thai (the language in which they think) what the English they are speaking means, how can they have a hope of learning with understanding?

One of the things i do professionally is teach driving. It would be easy for me to teach a novice pupil to pass the driving test, but i know that by doing this i would not be teaching them a skill for life and a how to be a safe & considerate driver in the real world. Which is what i try to do.

On a side note i was a little shocked to read in another thread (cost of international schools i think) that the basic school are STILL teaching Thai children what to think & not how to think.

I think many of us have experienced that if you go to another country (or a foreigner to England) & make some attempt to speak the language, if you dont get it right, the person to whom you are speaking will, purely based upon the subject & surroundings, attempt to guess what you meant to say. This doesn't happen in Thailand even if your pronunciation is close on. blank stares all round or a nod & a smile & you get something completely different to what you thought you'd ordered!

Edited January 1, 2008 by Lancashirelad

[Scott]

I almost never speak broken English. As a teacher, the least I can do is to speak using correct grammar (most of the time). I sometimes speak slowly and simply, but I try not to use Thinglish. Once in a blue moon, when communication is way more important than language, I will use a mixture of Thai and broken English, but this is rare.

I find that most folks (even Taxi Drivers) either understand English reasonably well or not at all, in which case, dumbing it down doesn't work much. Most folks have heard a lot more English than they can use--especially service staff, drivers, maids etc.

[bernie66]

bernie, kudos to you if you took the time to write that yourself.

However, if you are copying material from an outside source, please indicate which one, otherwise we will have to erase it. There are copyright laws to be observed here.

Thanks for the complement. But i wrote this sitting at my desk at work. I am on my second Asian wife so I was just recalling things I have been through already. I did not get this from the web. Most of it came from me dealing with my grandmother and other family members speaking to my Japanese wife as if she were deaf and dumb. It was very embarrassing in public. And they absolutely could not f****ing stop. I would tell them to cut it out it seemed every 5 minutes and five minutes later they would start this crap again. This would go on to the point that it was verging on the point of mental illness on their part. Even though her English was very good they would babble at her in a loud tone as if she were reading their lips. It finally stopped when I taught her to start cursing. For some reason as soon as a curse word came out her mouth people would change the way they talked to her. It gave her more freedom of expression, attitude, and created a more relaxed atmosphere I think. This really is my pet peeve. I could right a book on how much it pisses me off. It makes the hair on back of my neck stand up to hear someone speak like this. Especially to my wife.

Edited January 1, 2008 by bernie66

[sbk]

bernie, kudos to you if you took the time to write that yourself.

However, if you are copying material from an outside source, please indicate which one, otherwise we will have to erase it. There are copyright laws to be observed here.

Thanks for the complement. But i wrote this sitting at my desk at work. I am on my second asian wife so i was just recalling things i have been through already. I did not get this from the web.

Then accept my kudos as well, well written, insightful and IME, spot on.

[Scott]

I have found that most Thais understand the different dialects better than I do. I have friends from all over and they all speak English, although some with a thick accent. My Thai friend often has to reconstruct a conversation done entirely in English for me because I just didn't get a lot of it!

I've also never run into anyone who when they ask "Where you go?" Don't understand "I'm going home" just as easily as "I go home."

[PeaceBlondie]

Pardon me, but the point about needing to speak Thai fairly fluently, in order to teach English to a Thai, is both wrong and off topic. A professional EFL teacher need not know a single word of the native language of the students, though it helps if he at least can say, "Be quiet and open your books to page 13."

Anyway, it's quite foolish to be down at the pub with other native speakers of English and say, "Yesternight my tilac and me go to shopping at Centran."

[legag]

bernie66, are you a writer by any chance? You did a good job there?

Tinglish. I hate it but love it at the same time. It's babytalk, whinning, cute and expresse its Thai way.

[tracer5050]

I think Tinglish is cute , sometime is real fun to listen

[Petesear]

I don't speak broken English with Thai people so no, I don't speak broken English with foreigners either.

Just to add, my husband, who is fluent in English, is generally quite offended by people who speak to him in broken English, he feels that they are being patronizing and condescending, so it might be best to just learn to speak slowly and clearly instead of speaking pidgin.

My wife is not so much offended but confused by people who talk to her like she is 3 years old. I can't understand why anyone would feel the need to speak this way. I never have and I have never had a problem. This appears to be the norm all over Asia. Do you speak 'Toddler' when visiting Spain for example?

[mrtoad]

I don't speak broken English with Thai people so no, I don't speak broken English with foreigners either.

Just to add, my husband, who is fluent in English, is generally quite offended by people who speak to him in broken English, he feels that they are being patronizing and condescending, so it might be best to just learn to speak slowly and clearly instead of speaking pidgin.

My wife is not so much offended but confused by people who talk to her like she is 3 years old. I can't understand why anyone would feel the need to speak this way. I never have and I have never had a problem. This appears to be the norm all over Asia. Do you speak 'Toddler' when visiting Spain for example?

No they tend to shout louder and add an "o" sound on the end of every word.

It really is quite amusing listening to the way some people speak to non-native speakers, I just tend to speak a little slower and not try to overcomplicate, but again ot depends on who I am speaking with, as some of my friends speak perfect English.

[meadish_sweetball]

One thing i am completely unable to get my head around. How can anyone possible teach English to a Thai & for the Thai person to understand what they (the pupil) is saying (and that's the important bit) unless the teacher is fluent in Thai?

You are correct it would be preferable with completely bilingual teachers. Unfortunately, completely bilingual people are far and few between, and many of the few who are, do not wish to be language teachers. So how does one solve the situation? Mostly by using semi-bilingual native Thai teachers, that have the ability to explain things in Thai, but often have incorrect or lacking pronunciation, grammar and style... and native speaking foreigners willing to teach, with varying degrees of credentials and motivation.

I am sure there are those who are bilingual, but I also think the vast majority aren't.

Anyone can be taught to repeat what they hear, just like a mynah bird! but unless you are able to tell them in Thai (the language in which they think) what the English they are speaking means, how can they have a hope of learning with understanding?

By repetition in context, the same way we learn to speak our mother tongues as children... and by consulting dictionaries and other reference material written in Thai. It won't be ideal, of course.

One of the things i do professionally is teach driving. It would be easy for me to teach a novice pupil to pass the driving test, but i know that by doing this i would not be teaching them a skill for life and a how to be a safe & considerate driver in the real world. Which is what i try to do.

That's great. Still, most people who study a language at school without having the opportunity to practice it in a native setting, usually never become truly proficient. Europeans typically will learn to communicate in English to a reasonable degree through school, but this is a different situation to Thailand, both with regards to the overall quality of instruction as well as the relative distance between English and other Indo-European languages, and English and Thai.

On a side note i was a little shocked to read in another thread (cost of international schools i think) that the basic school are STILL teaching Thai children what to think & not how to think.

I think many of us have experienced that if you go to another country (or a foreigner to England) & make some attempt to speak the language, if you dont get it right, the person to whom you are speaking will, purely based upon the subject & surroundings, attempt to guess what you meant to say. This doesn't happen in Thailand even if your pronunciation is close on. blank stares all round or a nod & a smile & you get something completely different to what you thought you'd ordered!

I don't quite agree with your reasoning here.

Foreigners who have not studied Thai properly to become aware of which parts of a word or expression matter for Thais when they determine the meaning of a word, are not aware of the mistakes they actually make. What they think is close may be very far off in the ears of a Thai.

Most Westerners have strong accents when trying to Thai, and they frequently fail to recognize completely crucial things like phonemic differences between sounds, vowel length and phonemic tones. If they had perfect Thai grammar it might still work, because there would be more data for the Thai person to work with. But usually poor grammar or incomplete sentences make the problem worse.

If I said to you 'brung plas mee kotcheg' you would probably have to think for a while before realizing that I wanted you to bring a bottle of ketchup. When accounting for the vowel length, grammar mistakes and wrong tones used in Thai, this is similar to what a Thai person might hear a foreigner say.

If I spelt it 'bring please me ketchup' then it would be more obvious, but I am not sure the average Vera Smith down the pub would get that either. And the average Vera Smith down the pub is usually better educated than the average Mali Sirisak - taught to question things, perhaps not as afraid to make a mistake etc.

Another difference is that Thais are taught that it is more important to preserve face (to not to make themselves or others look bad) and to be positive than making sure it is always completely clear what is being said.

That being said - there is another option - we DID pronounce it right. But since we haven't attempted to speak any Thai before, nobody understands, because they are listening for English. After all, we are foreigners and the vast majority of us do not speak Thai.

So the lights are on, fans are blowing, the processor is running, the RAM ready to accept data for processing... but after processing we still get a 'Syntax error' because the software loaded is English Mk1.05, not Thai Mk2.03.

To switch software, start by saying something else clearly and slowly in Thai first - preferably a sentence you have heard Thai people using and which has been verified to be correct. Then proceed with your actual request.

[PhilHarries]

Pardon me, but the point about needing to speak Thai fairly fluently, in order to teach English to a Thai, is both wrong and off topic. A professional EFL teacher need not know a single word of the native language of the students, though it helps if he at least can say, "Be quiet and open your books to page 13."

Anyway, it's quite foolish to be down at the pub with other native speakers of English and say, "Yesternight my tilac and me go to shopping at Centran."

Firstly keeping the topic off topic for a moment . I always thought foreign language teachers had to be fairly fluent in the mother tongue of their students in order to explain some of the rules of the language. My first course in Thai was taken by a couple of ladies who's English was not up to much and it was often very frustrating not to be able to get a clear explanation of the rules.

Secondly on topic . I agree that hearing native speakers talking to their fellow countrymen in bargirl talk is cringeworthy. But the quality of spoken English heard in the UK these days amongst many of the youth makes Tinglish seem an educated form of communication.

Thirdly off topic again . I read today in the Bangkok Post that over 1300 schools in England have less than 50% native English speaking students and in some 600 the figure is 30%. So maybe sometime in the future Tinglish, or some version of it, will replace the Queen's (or BBC) English.

Anyway today night I no go bar dink some beer, I get fat too much already.

[kankaroo]

This past October when I was in Thailand. I made some friends with some first time travelers. We met in Phuket and happen to fly back to Bangkok on the same flight and shared a Taxi to our separate hotels.

During the time in the Taxi, I was giving advise and answering their many questions. As it turned out through talking, they were from New Jersey and I am from Delaware and our states neighbor each other..... We had no problem when talking but they did ask me.... "Why are you talking with broken English? It is so funny that you are talking to us as if English is our second language" (They they laughed a little).

I explained that I am so use to talking that way while in Thailand that it is difficult to turn it off....

Also when I am talking with Thia's who were educated in English speaking lands, they will remind me that I can talk to them in regular English.

Hmmm, I find it rather strange that on hearing people with the same accent / roots as you you do not get back into your original pattern of talking etc.

I know what you mean about changing the way you speak though. For example I am from Scotland but have lived in different parts of the country where the regional dialects differ, sometimes quite drastically. I have also lived in LOS for over 4 years ob and off. The result is that I tend to have a 'neutral' accent. Some Glaswegians have called me American, and even English. Other Scots just can't place where I'm from.

But normally if I met up with some Scots people abroad my accent does tend to get more Scottish.

It's all good though and I love the topic of languages and am thoroughly committed to studying and learning this topic until I'm dead

[Mosha]

As a Yorkshireman, I always speak pidgin Inglish wen speeking wiv suverners.

Edited January 2, 2008 by Mosha

[mrtoad]

As a Yorkshireman, I always speak pidgin Inglish wen speeking wiv suverners.

Do you have whippets?

[Mosha]

No my wife isn't into those kind of games

[nidge]

As a Yorkshireman, I always speak pidgin Inglish wen speeking wiv suverners.

Do you have whippets?

Careful, maybe he's wallop you wit black pudding. Bye eck they urt!

[mrtoad]

No my wife isn't into those kind of games