"Hey let's stop hemming and hawing like so many squawking crows about the air and pollution,"

Hey leave me out of this - I didn't say anything about babbling buttheads <sheesh>

CB

"Hey let's stop hemming and hawing like so many squawking crows about the air and pollution,"

Hey leave me out of this - I didn't say anything about babbling buttheads <sheesh>

CB

Or Wheezing Whingers, or Smug SmokeHeads.....

Seriously, I can see both sides of this issue. I plan on taking a trip to Krabi/Ao Nang in March.....

And I voted "Doesn't bother me at all, ever" in the poll.....

This discussion is pretty pointless. The CM Health authorities have statistics showing how the pollution levels here have affected the health of the population over a period. I shall try to get hold of them.

Agreed, alot of the damage from such bad air is hidden until it comes to hit you later. Smoke a ciggie today, you are OK. Then you get lung cancer later. Same difference. Y'all that live there shouldn't be rationalizing about how it isn't that bad. It is that bad and the world knows it.

I'm not rationalizing that "it isn't that bad", or that "it's good" or that "it's very bad". All I'm saying is no one on here is going to change it beyond the changes they make in their own lives and i'm just sick of all this whining.

Many people think Seattle is a nice place to live. when I lived there it rained 10 months per year and I personally wasn't able to stop it. The suicide rate there was way above the national average as the weather cast a pall over everything. If I whined about it all the time that wouldn't have stopped it . In the end I decided I'd be happier elsewhere when I weighed all the plusses and minusses. Everyone has to do that for themselves, wherever they live. You did it and decided not to live here. I did it and decided it was risk factor I could tolerate. What I didn't do was try to disturb other people with my decision making process.

When I lived in Seattle it also rained all the time. But to compare rain to air pollution is not really being fair. I see your point about people complaining about something that is out of their control, like the weather, but air pollution IS in our control. It all starts with the individual, if not there, then where else would it start? Rain is natural, and good, air pollution is man made, and bad. Apples and oranges.

I dont think this thread is about wining, its about peoples view on if the air quality IS or IS NOT and issue for them. But there are always those that wine to try to TELL others that its not "that bad". Well, the stats speak for them self.

I hate the thought of someone really liking a place, and then not being able to stay in that place due to an issue that can be improved. There is a difference between gathering thoughts on a subject and complaining about it, usually its a mix of both. You yourself listed many ways in which YOU try to improve the air quality here, or at least, not contribute to its demise. Other people may do something different but just as productive. A while back I saw this huge farung riding some sort of electric scooter down the street, I thought it was odd but that is possibly his way to help the problem. Good on him.

We all can do something to help the issue, or we can choose to ignore it, or we choose to leave....its just that simple.

This discussion is pretty pointless. The CM Health authorities have statistics showing how the pollution levels here have affected the health of the population over a period. I shall try to get hold of them.

Agreed, alot of the damage from such bad air is hidden until it comes to hit you later. Smoke a ciggie today, you are OK. Then you get lung cancer later. Same difference. Y'all that live there shouldn't be rationalizing about how it isn't that bad. It is that bad and the world knows it.

I'm not rationalizing that "it isn't that bad", or that "it's good" or that "it's very bad". All I'm saying is no one on here is going to change it beyond the changes they make in their own lives and i'm just sick of all this whining.

Many people think Seattle is a nice place to live. when I lived there it rained 10 months per year and I personally wasn't able to stop it. The suicide rate there was way above the national average as the weather cast a pall over everything. If I whined about it all the time that wouldn't have stopped it . In the end I decided I'd be happier elsewhere when I weighed all the plusses and minusses. Everyone has to do that for themselves, wherever they live. You did it and decided not to live here. I did it and decided it was risk factor I could tolerate. What I didn't do was try to disturb other people with my decision making process.

When I lived in Seattle it also rained all the time. But to compare rain to air pollution is not really being fair. I see your point about people complaining about something that is out of their control, like the weather, but air pollution IS in our control. It all starts with the individual, if not there, then where else would it start? I think that's what I said. Rain is natural, and good, air pollution is man made, and bad. Apples and oranges.

I dont think this thread is about wining, its about peoples view on if the air quality IS or IS NOT and issue for them. But there are always those that wine to try to TELL others that its not "that bad". Well, the stats speak for them self.

I hate the thought of someone really liking a place, and then not being able to stay in that place due to an issue that can be improved. There is a difference between gathering thoughts on a subject and complaining about it, usually its a mix of both. You yourself listed many ways in which YOU try to improve the air quality here, or at least, not contribute to its demise. Other people may do something different but just as productive. Yes, I expect so, and I was hoping they would post the measures they are taking to mitigate the greater pollution here. A while back I saw this huge farung riding some sort of electric scooter down the street, I thought it was odd but that is possibly his way to help the problem. Good on him. I agree.

We all can do something to help the issue, Well, that's the the kind of thing I'd love to hear more examples of. or we can choose to ignore it, or we choose to leave....its just that simple.

I hate the thought of someone really liking a place, and then not being able to stay in that place due to an issue that can be improved. There is a difference between gathering thoughts on a subject and complaining about it, usually its a mix of both. You yourself listed many ways in which YOU try to improve the air quality here, or at least, not contribute to its demise. Other people may do something different but just as productive. A while back I saw this huge farung riding some sort of electric scooter down the street, I thought it was odd but that is possibly his way to help the problem. Good on him.

We all can do something to help the issue, or we can choose to ignore it, or we choose to leave....its just that simple.

most Chinese cities for example have banned internal combustion motorbikes and everyone is on electric. It helps the air a lot but you can't hear these things coming. They are almost silent. I nearly got clocked by a few of them in Chengdu. Really is unnerving. They could easily mandate some air whistle or something so you can hear them.

sadly a lot of the air quality comes from the outdoor restaurants and carts we all love. Except of course when the forest fires really come on line.

I think if your health conscious or sensitive then travel for those 2 months and the rest of the year is manageable.

I would like to hear from people who use air filters, cleaners, plants or whatever to improve the indoor air during the worst months.

This discussion is pretty pointless. The CM Health authorities have statistics showing how the pollution levels here have affected the health of the population over a period. I shall try to get hold of them.

Agreed, alot of the damage from such bad air is hidden until it comes to hit you later. Smoke a ciggie today, you are OK. Then you get lung cancer later. Same difference. Y'all that live there shouldn't be rationalizing about how it isn't that bad. It is that bad and the world knows it.

I'm not rationalizing that "it isn't that bad", or that "it's good" or that "it's very bad". All I'm saying is no one on here is going to change it beyond the changes they make in their own lives and i'm just sick of all this whining.

Many people think Seattle is a nice place to live. when I lived there it rained 10 months per year and I personally wasn't able to stop it. The suicide rate there was way above the national average as the weather cast a pall over everything. If I whined about it all the time that wouldn't have stopped it . In the end I decided I'd be happier elsewhere when I weighed all the plusses and minusses. Everyone has to do that for themselves, wherever they live. You did it and decided not to live here. I did it and decided it was risk factor I could tolerate. What I didn't do was try to disturb other people with my decision making process.

When I lived in Seattle it also rained all the time. But to compare rain to air pollution is not really being fair. I see your point about people complaining about something that is out of their control, like the weather, but air pollution IS in our control. It all starts with the individual, if not there, then where else would it start? Rain is natural, and good, air pollution is man made, and bad. Apples and oranges.

I dont think this thread is about wining, its about peoples view on if the air quality IS or IS NOT and issue for them. But there are always those that wine to try to TELL others that its not "that bad". Well, the stats speak for them self.

I hate the thought of someone really liking a place, and then not being able to stay in that place due to an issue that can be improved. There is a difference between gathering thoughts on a subject and complaining about it, usually its a mix of both. You yourself listed many ways in which YOU try to improve the air quality here, or at least, not contribute to its demise. Other people may do something different but just as productive. A while back I saw this huge farung riding some sort of electric scooter down the street, I thought it was odd but that is possibly his way to help the problem. Good on him.

We all can do something to help the issue, or we can choose to ignore it, or we choose to leave....its just that simple.

most Chinese cities for example have banned internal combustion motorbikes and everyone is on electric. It helps the air a lot but you can't hear these things coming. They are almost silent. I nearly got clocked by a few of them in Chengdu. Really is unnerving. They could easily mandate some air whistle or something so you can hear them.

sadly a lot of the air quality comes from the outdoor restaurants and carts we all love. Except of course when the forest fires really come on line.

I think if your health conscious or sensitive then travel for those 2 months and the rest of the year is manageable.

I would like to hear from people who use air filters, cleaners, plants or whatever to improve the indoor air during the worst months.

I took a trip to China recently. This time Xiamen an Putian. I've been to many other industrial cities there as well. I would say just about anywhere there has much greater air pollution everyday than Chiang Mai did at it's worst period last year. I've seen the electric mopeds, but between the rapid expansion of personal vehicles, dirty busses and construction related vehicles one feels a burning in their throat the minute you leave the airport at arrival. Kunming is a notable exception.

Wheezing Whingers

I like this one!

Perhaps one of the mods could merge all chiangmai air quality topics into one mega-thread.

Perhaps one of the mods could merge all chiangmai air quality topics into one mega-thread.

and then promptly close it

First of all and for the record: I couldn't agree more that any level of air pollution is bad and that all reasonable actions should be taken to reduce it! I also have a lot of respect for people's problems, whether real or perceived, with the pollution.

However, what I have tried to do with my previous submissions to this thread is to put the discussion about Chiang Mai into some perspective. I must admit that I tend to follow discussions about Chiang Mai more closely than those about Bangkok (I live in CM, after all) but I have seen considerably fewer threads/entries about the bad air in BKK than in CM. Before anybody points it out, yes I know that BKK is a much bigger city However, it is also situated right by the sea, whereas CM is very much inland and surrounded by mountains, which should make things a bit more difficult here.

Perceived air pollution, judged by difficulty in seeing Doi Suthep or otherwise, is one thing, real measured levels of pollution is another. There seems to be agreement that the level of particulate matter <10 microns is the most important variable in causing various kinds of human suffering. The Thai Air Quality Standards set a maximum target for this of 120 micrograms/m3, measured as a 24 hour average.

How often does the air in Chiang Mai exceed this level? Since 25 March 1997 there have been 157 days with a level above the target, i.e. 4.4% of the time (measured at Uparaj College). The equivalent number in Bangkok (Lad Phrao) is 151 days, i.e. 4.2% of the time. In Sara Buri the corresponding numbers are 499 days and 14.0% and in Samut Prakarn 695 days and 19.5%! If you decide to leave Chiang Mai due to the on average 16 days per year with air pollution above the maximum target, be careful about where you move to

To sum up the points I've tried to make:

- Yes, the air quality in Chiang Mai could be a lot better.

- No, I don't think the air quality (during normal years) merits the scores of threads devoted to the subject, in this forum alone.

- Yes, I think evereybody has a right to her/his opinion and an obligation to make her/his own decision whether all the other qualities of Chiang Mai make it worthwhile living here.

/ Priceless

PS All the above statistical data come from the web site of the Pollution Control Department.

Thank Priceless - voice of reason.

Thank Priceless - voice of reason.

Much obliged, sir

If you decide to leave Chiang Mai due to the on average 16 days per year with air pollution above the maximum target, be careful about where you move to

Not to be a smart-ass, but The Wheezing Whingers make it sound like we only have 16 days per year below the target range!

If you decide to leave Chiang Mai due to the on average 16 days per year with air pollution above the maximum target, be careful about where you move to

Not to be a smart-ass, but The Wheezing Whingers make it sound like we only have 16 days per year below the target range!

Remember though, those numbers above are an average of the last 10 years. imho I think that the next few years are going to be more like 2007 than 1997. Pollution levels all over the world are higher now unless measures are taken to reduce it.

I know people who smoke a pack of cigarettes a day and say it doesn't affect them. Just like cigarettes, the PM>10 has long term effects. It doesn't matter whether or not you cough or wheeze or have red eyes during March. I don't want to be diagnosed with cancer on a clear day in July.

The EU's unhealthy limit for PM>10 is 50. I still live in CM but I leave in March. And I only rent. If the pollution doesn't improve I don't want to be stuck trying to sell a property to a greater fool.

Remember though, those numbers above are an average of the last 10 years. imho I think that the next few years are going to be more like 2007 than 1997. [...]

It seems to be generally agreed that the main causes of air pollution in Chiang Mai (and the rest of northern Thailand) are forest fires, whether accidentally or intentionally started, and the traditional burning of agricultural waste, such as rice husks etc. The main reason for the extended and unusually bad pollution in CM in 2007 was an extremely persistent inversion that prevented any dispersion of the polluted air.

It would be interesting to know whether you base your forecast for the next few years on an expectation of increasing numbers/sizes of forest fires, increasing burning of agricultural waste or increased frequency/duration of inversions, or on a combination of these factors?

/ Priceless

PS I wish you all the best in your new location

My Missus came out with a blinding observation about a year after we married and she moved up to Chiangmai .....

She said, "Why does Chiangmai never have blue sky like in Issaan?"

OK, it does during December & bits of January, but generally speaking, does not for the rest of the year.

There's probably a scientist somewhere that would explain that global warming has caused the clouds to fail to convert to rain (as the air under them is too hot to allow the droplets to fall). Unfortunately this increased cloud cover then prevents air pollution from rising and blowing away.

Solution?

Yup, there is one - total reforestation to cool the environment (forget about CO2 conversion for the moment) including as much as possible in cities. If you think this is a crazy notion. Try walking through the green and leafy CMU campus in March / April - it's a LOT cooler than the concrete and tarmac zone of the city centre.

My tuppence worth

Dons fireman's jacket and battle bowler and goes back under desk

My Missus came out with a blinding observation about a year after we married and she moved up to Chiangmai .....

She said, "Why does Chiangmai never have blue sky like in Issaan?"

Not too sure about this observation Gaz because where I am there are lots of blue sky but mainly outside the house

Solution?

Yup, there is one - total reforestation to cool the environment (forget about CO2 conversion for the moment) including as much as possible in cities. If you think this is a crazy notion. Try walking through the green and leafy CMU campus in March / April - it's a LOT cooler than the concrete and tarmac zone of the city centre.

This is an obvious truth and something that has changed in Chiang Mai region over many years. As the teak forests cleared for rice production and as the population increased so the local climate has changed. As more people arrived and built houses so the situation exacerbated. In pre Industrial Revolution time there was snow in London all winter, as the population increased so it created a micro climate and snow in Victorian time was reasonably common but not all winter. How many snows happen now in the middle of the city.

I would like to see an expansion of tree planting and growing in and around CM. People such as LannaRebirth who is planting and cultivating trees on his property are to be commended. Trees help to stabilise the water table and provide important structure to the environment. I went spare when I came home a couple of months and the six trees in the front of my house had been devastated by chainsaws because the local Poo Yai decided they were too big. Those trees kept the front of my house sheltered from the sun and blocked a lot of traffic noise. Now I have to keep my front door shut or we can't hear the TV. We are moving out very soon to a new place owned by a friend of mine and have open invitation to plant what and where we want on the property. I intend to slowly create our own little sheltered environment and while it will not directly change the climate in CM it will help to make out bit a little better. If we all do this it will eventually make a difference.

CB

My tuppence worth

Dons fireman's jacket and battle bowler and goes back under desk

And a good tuppence worth it was

CB

I went spare when I came home a couple of months and the six trees in the front of my house had been devastated by chainsaws because the local Poo Yai decided they were too big. Those trees kept the front of my house sheltered from the sun and blocked a lot of traffic noise. Now I have to keep my front door shut or we can't hear the TV

The seems to be a common practice I notice this morning a number of trees cut down opposite my moo baan for no reason whatsoever. I've also had to ask my wife to have words with her mother who everytime she comes to the house seems to be shinning up a tree in the garden and chopping the branches off

Pruning of trees here seems to be extreme. I lost almost half the shade tree in my front yard because it was endangering the front house and the driveway, but they cut about 15 years' growth all at once. My friend in Hang Dong had to remodel his entire front lawn due to the landlord or the moobahn ripping out the shade tree. I guess when the owner/responsible party calls out the cutting crew, they decide to get their money's worth out of a half day project and spend 1.5 days destroying the work of twenty years.

Fully agree with the tree comments - tons of environmental benefits and they make a city look good.

One of the good things about London is the tens of thousands of trees planted around all parts of the city. The practice of planting should definitely be encouraged.

However, unfortunately, I'm afraid that our hosts don't agree!

The problem here is the way they insist in planting trees under electric and phone lines. Doesn't take too long before both services get cut off downstream!

Hi, my first post here

Was at Chiang Mai on Oct 07 and the air quality is acceptable. Planing to drop by CM from mid March to mid Sept 08. Question is which are the period (specific month) when the air quality or pollution is high?

I am planning to do tour, biking and photography.

Thanks in advance.

Hi bigmouse, and welcome to the forum!

Not entirely sure about the highest objective pollution levels, but I think it's fair to say the most unpleasant months are March and April due to the heat with no or little relief from rain, so you will likely be arriving in a hot and dry CM. The upside is that it gets better as you go along! Once the rainy season kicks in again in May-June, the air quickly starts to feel more fresh.

With the exception of last year that had some extremely 'bad 'air days' (groan), for people who do not live here permanently, I don't think there is any need for greater concern.

October usually has very good air, since it is towards the rain of the rainy season.

Thanks for the quick reply.

Look like I have to reconsider my schedule when the time comes.

I just got back from my first visit to T land. I absolutely loved it. Travelled all over. The places I loved most are Chiang Mai and Pai. I didn't face any pollution in the way of 'smoke'.

btw...that was my first 'post'. Aren't you going to respond Cobra? I am trying to learn how to use the 'posting' stuff. Help.

Macx, Looks like Cobra is asleep. How about a response from you?

btw...that was my first 'post'. Aren't you going to respond Cobra? I am trying to learn how to use the 'posting' stuff. Help.

Hi thailoneus,

You seem to have the posting figured out. Wecome to Thaivisa and the Chiang Mai Forum. I'm happy to hear you enjoyed your trip here. I like it too.