When Will Next Generation Cbr150 Will Release

[jfl0128]

Is there anybody know when will next generation CBR150 will available? Now the CBR125 is realease to Europe, how about CBR150? Will it provide PGM Fi fuel injection and new fairing like CBR125??

I am newcomer from Taiwan who have a CBR150. Nice to see this site.

[apetley]

Didn't I read somewhere that the prospect of fuel injection for the next model CBR had been quietly dropped?

[Crow Boy]

I am newcomer from Taiwan who have a CBR150. Nice to see this site.

Welcome to Thai Visa and welcome to the CBR arena - there are several threads about this bike. Feel free to join in.

Didn't I read somewhere that the prospect of fuel injection for the next model CBR had been quietly dropped?

Did they give a reason? Presumably it wasn't cost because there is FI on the Honda Wave (model I).

CB

[dave_boo]

I had orignally asked this same question. To which there was no answer. However, RichardBKK stated that they were going to drop the CBR 150R based on what was posted on motorcycle.in.th. I responded that perhaps a better reading of the purported conversation was in order. Even if RichardBKK believes that Honda can't adapt the fuel injection for the CBR 150R, why would he than talk about supercharging a Wave 125i which would require more tuning than simply putting a fuel injection system on a CBR 150R?

[Richard-BKK]

It is true, the Honda CBR150Ri will likely not make it on the market, there are several reasons. A few reasons are that APHonda or Honda likely will introduce a 250cc model somewhere late 2008.

Asean is in trade talks with several economic powers for a free-trade-agreement, one of the major problems in Asean is the non-uniform rules of several important economic markets. To keep things simple, I will only point to the maximum motorcycle displacement rules in the different member countries. So can we, in Thailand, buy motorcycles with a engine less then 200cc with reduced TAX. For most other Asean member countries is this 250cc, Indonesia changed this a few months ago.

To correct this and other rules the Asean countries selected 2009 as the year that all motorcycle rules would be equal in all member countries. (I belief that this would likely not possible, but still)

Second but still important is the free trade agreement with China, which will get serious around 2009, at which date, if nothing comes in between, will open the Thai market for all Chinese products. For the people who frequently visit Laos will understand what that means, the big 4 will get it much harder competition, sure most Chinese motorcycles will not stand up to the Thai/Japanese makes, but China also have a few good brands which are looking this way. From the west we have world largest motorcycle manufacturer looking to the Thai market, Hero known from HeroHonda bought itself deep into KTM motorcycles and granted itself the rights for manufacturing and distribution in Asia. Prompt, we can now buy any KTM motorcycle you want direct from KTM.

All this is not that important, the most important issue for the Honda CBR-150R is the Japanese marketing department of Honda, which have set 2008 as the year that Honda will be a 100% clean company. I not belief that a few thousand CBR-150R will stop Honda from this plan. I can remember the Honda NSR150 a great machine, loved by all racers and sold in the thousands all over the world. The NSR became to dirty for the almighty Honda image and was dropped and production was stopped.

Honda is not alone, I know from reliable sources that Suzuki is also working on something 250cc, at least some 3th party manufacturers are machining sample engine parts. And Kawasaki is beginning to sell it Ninja 250R in Thailand. (And completing with that the a full product line Ninja 250R road machine, Vulcan 900 cruiser model and the KLX300R as offroad model)

For my Turbo project I'm not considering supercharging a Honda (for now). For a short time we considered a Honda Phantom but for reasons of our budget we skipped it, currently we are talking with Kawasaki for a Boss, but then the Boss is manufactured by Bajaj Auto and will probably also quickly be upgraded to a 200cc

[jfl0128]

Thanks for your reply, I am glad to see new Honda 250cc sports bike appear!!

[dave_boo]

It is true, the Honda CBR150Ri will likely not make it on the market, there are several reasons. A few reasons are that APHonda or Honda likely will introduce a 250cc model somewhere late 2008.

Asean is in trade talks with several economic powers for a free-trade-agreement, one of the major problems in Asean is the non-uniform rules of several important economic markets. To keep things simple, I will only point to the maximum motorcycle displacement rules in the different member countries. So can we, in Thailand, buy motorcycles with a engine less then 200cc with reduced TAX. For most other Asean member countries is this 250cc, Indonesia changed this a few months ago.

To correct this and other rules the Asean countries selected 2009 as the year that all motorcycle rules would be equal in all member countries. (I belief that this would likely not possible, but still)

Second but still important is the free trade agreement with China, which will get serious around 2009, at which date, if nothing comes in between, will open the Thai market for all Chinese products. For the people who frequently visit Laos will understand what that means, the big 4 will get it much harder competition, sure most Chinese motorcycles will not stand up to the Thai/Japanese makes, but China also have a few good brands which are looking this way. From the west we have world largest motorcycle manufacturer looking to the Thai market, Hero known from HeroHonda bought itself deep into KTM motorcycles and granted itself the rights for manufacturing and distribution in Asia. Prompt, we can now buy any KTM motorcycle you want direct from KTM.

All this is not that important, the most important issue for the Honda CBR-150R is the Japanese marketing department of Honda, which have set 2008 as the year that Honda will be a 100% clean company. I not belief that a few thousand CBR-150R will stop Honda from this plan. I can remember the Honda NSR150 a great machine, loved by all racers and sold in the thousands all over the world. The NSR became to dirty for the almighty Honda image and was dropped and production was stopped.

Honda is not alone, I know from reliable sources that Suzuki is also working on something 250cc, at least some 3th party manufacturers are machining sample engine parts. And Kawasaki is beginning to sell it Ninja 250R in Thailand. (And completing with that the a full product line Ninja 250R road machine, Vulcan 900 cruiser model and the KLX300R as offroad model)

For my Turbo project I'm not considering supercharging a Honda (for now). For a short time we considered a Honda Phantom but for reasons of our budget we skipped it, currently we are talking with Kawasaki for a Boss, but then the Boss is manufactured by Bajaj Auto and will probably also quickly be upgraded to a 200cc

I hate to be negative, but I just don't see Aphonda introducing a 250cc CBR. There is a CB(non-R) model that's produced in Brazil, but that's old technology. The fact that it's not produced even in the Asean countries would just mean that the taxes would be stupid on it.

I'm also pessimistic about Asean actually enforcing any agreement about fair trade. Case in point would be Malaysia. How long have they been a member and yet they still have protectionist measures for their auto market.

I also doubt that the Chinese will be able to make much of a dent in the Thai market. The brands already there have left a sour taste in the Thai consumer's mouth. Also the 'herd mentality' assures that they will stay with Honda. Tiger motors can't even sell bikes!

I would like to see a link from a major news source stating that Honda wants to become a 'clean' motorcycle company (I'm assuming that is talking about emissions). Plus, putting a catalytic convertor on the CBR 150R would quickly get it into compliance. Are they planning on dropping all of their carburated models?

I also scoured Kawasaki's website and couldn't find any reference to the 250 being sold. Where are they being sold, since I've been wanting to get my hands on one, especially if I can do it for the price I can in the States.

[Richard-BKK]

It is hard to say what going to happen, some point out the Honda CBF-250 as a candidate for replacing the CBR-150R. This bike is not at all old technology, even with its 100cc larger engine displacement it is able to get much more mileage out of liter fuel. Also the CBF250 immersion meets the Euro-3 standard, and is available in Europe. Other say that APHonda is going to engineer a whole new engine, which I personal belief is unlikely, as APHonda always selected the easy route, see the CBR-125 to 150 development.

I agree that the Honda CBR-150R is easily cleaned up by a catalytic converter; the main problem with that idea is that one of the active components in a catalytic converter is platinum, platinum as in precious metal, making the bike probably a 20 to 30,000 Baht more expensive. As for the PGM-FI and the Honda CBR-150 it is, as I was told not so much the problem of the 150cc. The problem is that the engine is a beefed up 125 with just a bigger bore, which in some circumstances leave the combustion chamber in a very lean condition. Lean condition can cause damage to pistons, like burn holes chip of metal, one of the reasons why the CBR-125i and Wave 125i have ceramic-coated pistons. But for the relative big bore high compression CBR-150 engine a ceramic-coated piston will not do the trick. Tests with pistons made of other alloys made the engine out of balance, for which a modified flywheel needed to be designed. A separated flywheel or other engine parts will make the engine more expensive.

Honda Europe was successful in using the PGM-FI fuel injection on a 150cc engine; with the exception that this had a smaller bore 58mm with a 57.8mm stroke. The CBR-150 uses a 63.5mm bore with 47.2mm stroke, for the CBR-125 PGM-FI the bore is 58mm with the same stroke as his 150cc brother.

The reason why people belief that APHonda is going for the CBF-250 is that they get an instant export market in Southeast Asia, where the CBF250 is already sold as CBX-250. The CBF-250 is also supported on the Malaysian side, where Boon Siew Honda, a firm that has probably the closest relation possible with the Japanese manufacturer, is now importing the CFX-250 from Brazil. Mr. Loh Boon Siew was the first foreigner (1958) (Malaysian) who believed in Mr. Soichiro Honda motorcycle dream, and convinced Mr. Honda to set up a Honda subsidiary in Malaysia (one of the first overseas joint ventures). Even today, there are not many decisions, which are not first discussed with Boon Siew Honda, it is even said that a member of the Boon Siew family is on the board of the directors at Honda.

There is also a rumor that Honda was never really happy with the CBR-150R, as APHonda is not using parts that are consistent with Honda’s business. Honda and Keihin have a sort I scratch your back if you scratch my back agreement (Keiretsu sort Japanese business friendship), and APHonda is not always using Keihin carburetors for the CBR-150. And it is said that some parts of the engine are below Honda standards. Again this are just rumors….

For the Kawasaki bikes you look at the wrong website, Kawasaki larger engine motorcycles are being sold by http://www.kawasakibigbike.com The website is still mainly concentrated on the Kawasaki Vulcan 900, but if you visit there showroom you can see more models. They also sell big Ninja’s, for now the 250R is about 40 to 60,000 Baht more expensive then the current price in the USA. (What makes about 185,000 Baht)

[Richard-BKK]

I almost forget for the statement that Honda wants to become a Green -Environment friendly company- you can best read and search http://world.honda.com/environment/

And for the taste of Thai consumers for Chinese motorcycles, this taste quickly changes if motorcycle 1 (Honda) cost 40,000 Bht and motorcycle 2 (Chinese Brand X) cost 15,000 Bht.

For some Chinese motorcycles, spare parts are no problem, as the use the same engine parts as there more expensive Japanese brothers

Edited January 5, 2008 by Richard-BKK

[JimsKnight]

I for one think that on the biker scene that times will be interesting with the new bike potential.

I love the whole CBR thing but it would be nice to see some 'new blood' on the streets and roads cause all there is at the moment is CBR or a few ageing NSRs.

Currently the big bikes that are brand new tend to the medium-heavy weight 600cc + range which will burn a 500k+++ baht in your wallet.

When some of the light-medium weight bikes 200 - 500 cc start coming along in numbers in the realistic prices then all will be well.

A fuel injected CBR model is crucial if the government is going to phase out the 91 octane with gasohol in the near future, as I can see a fair few of us may vote with our wallets and stray over to the Kawasaki realm

[dave_boo]

It is hard to say what going to happen, some point out the Honda CBF-250 as a candidate for replacing the CBR-150R. This bike is not at all old technology, even with its 100cc larger engine displacement it is able to get much more mileage out of liter fuel. Also the CBF250 immersion meets the Euro-3 standard, and is available in Europe. Other say that APHonda is going to engineer a whole new engine, which I personal belief is unlikely, as APHonda always selected the easy route, see the CBR-125 to 150 development.

I agree that the Honda CBR-150R is easily cleaned up by a catalytic converter; the main problem with that idea is that one of the active components in a catalytic converter is platinum, platinum as in precious metal, making the bike probably a 20 to 30,000 Baht more expensive. As for the PGM-FI and the Honda CBR-150 it is, as I was told not so much the problem of the 150cc. The problem is that the engine is a beefed up 125 with just a bigger bore, which in some circumstances leave the combustion chamber in a very lean condition. Lean condition can cause damage to pistons, like burn holes chip of metal, one of the reasons why the CBR-125i and Wave 125i have ceramic-coated pistons. But for the relative big bore high compression CBR-150 engine a ceramic-coated piston will not do the trick. Tests with pistons made of other alloys made the engine out of balance, for which a modified flywheel needed to be designed. A separated flywheel or other engine parts will make the engine more expensive.

Honda Europe was successful in using the PGM-FI fuel injection on a 150cc engine; with the exception that this had a smaller bore 58mm with a 57.8mm stroke. The CBR-150 uses a 63.5mm bore with 47.2mm stroke, for the CBR-125 PGM-FI the bore is 58mm with the same stroke as his 150cc brother.

The reason why people belief that APHonda is going for the CBF-250 is that they get an instant export market in Southeast Asia, where the CBF250 is already sold as CBX-250. The CBF-250 is also supported on the Malaysian side, where Boon Siew Honda, a firm that has probably the closest relation possible with the Japanese manufacturer, is now importing the CFX-250 from Brazil. Mr. Loh Boon Siew was the first foreigner (1958) (Malaysian) who believed in Mr. Soichiro Honda motorcycle dream, and convinced Mr. Honda to set up a Honda subsidiary in Malaysia (one of the first overseas joint ventures). Even today, there are not many decisions, which are not first discussed with Boon Siew Honda, it is even said that a member of the Boon Siew family is on the board of the directors at Honda.

There is also a rumor that Honda was never really happy with the CBR-150R, as APHonda is not using parts that are consistent with Honda’s business. Honda and Keihin have a sort I scratch your back if you scratch my back agreement (Keiretsu sort Japanese business friendship), and APHonda is not always using Keihin carburetors for the CBR-150. And it is said that some parts of the engine are below Honda standards. Again this are just rumors….

For the Kawasaki bikes you look at the wrong website, Kawasaki larger engine motorcycles are being sold by http://www.kawasakibigbike.com The website is still mainly concentrated on the Kawasaki Vulcan 900, but if you visit there showroom you can see more models. They also sell big Ninja’s, for now the 250R is about 40 to 60,000 Baht more expensive then the current price in the USA. (What makes about 185,000 Baht)

The reason that the CBF-250 can get more milage is due to its greater torque and 'taller' transmission. Interestingly enough, the new CBR 125Ri also meets the Euro3 standards. The reason that the CBF-250 can meet it is that it uses EGR; not exactly something that can be pointed to as better than going PGM-Fi and catalytic convertors. Added to the fact that the CBF-250 also requires a catalyst to reach that, and still costs so much (even without the taxes that are sure to come with it), it seems like a non-starter.

I don't know why you keep insisting that Honda can't sort out the fuel injection on the 150cc model. Doesn't the CBR 600RR have 4x 150cc cylinders and you never hear about that running lean and burning pistons...... If you're worried about the CBR 150R being oversquare and burning pistons, well the 600 is even more oversquare at 67 mm x 42.5mm(with a higher compression to boot).

I also find it hard to believe that Malaysia would sit back and let Aphonda manufacture CBF-250 for them to import. We've already seen what they've done with Thai Honda/Isuzu/Toyota vehicles...what guarantees would there be that it would be different for a Thai made bike? How many Thai bikes are currently exported to Malaysia?

That's a bummer about the Kawasaki 250....at 185 000 Bhat, it's actually more like 73 000 more than I'd pay in the States.

And for the taste of Thai consumers for Chinese motorcycles, this taste quickly changes if motorcycle 1 (Honda) cost 40,000 Bht and motorcycle 2 (Chinese Brand X) cost 15,000 Bht.

For some Chinese motorcycles, spare parts are no problem, as the use the same engine parts as there more expensive Japanese brothers

All I've got to say is see Tiger, Platinum, et al.

[thaitot]

The information I have says the current cbr 150r uses a catalytic converter

[dave_boo]

The information I have says the current cbr 150r uses a catalytic converter

I think it does also, but without anyone knowing if it actually does pass Euro3 emission standards this is actually a futile argument.

[Richard-BKK]

For your information the Tiger ST-200 Boxer is not manufactured in China, it is manufactured in Thailand and Malaysia. And Tiger outsold Japanese brands with in the 150 plus market in the last 6 months of 2007. Mainly because of the orders from Thai Traffic Police and Thai Airport Authority.

As I said, Honda already has a 150cc motorcycle (scooter) with PGM-FI running around in Europe, so yes it is not the 150cc problem, and yes there are motorcycles with larger pistons using a similar PGM-FI system. The issue is converting an exciting engine, without engineering much new parts, as the CBR-125 and CBR-150 share much of the same parts. Engines designed to use a PGM-FI are probably equipped with stronger alloy piston, with different shaped combustion chambers.

[dave_boo]

For your information the Tiger ST-200 Boxer is not manufactured in China, it is manufactured in Thailand and Malaysia. And Tiger outsold Japanese brands with in the 150 plus market in the last 6 months of 2007. Mainly because of the orders from Thai Traffic Police and Thai Airport Authority.

As I said, Honda already has a 150cc motorcycle (scooter) with PGM-FI running around in Europe, so yes it is not the 150cc problem, and yes there are motorcycles with larger pistons using a similar PGM-FI system. The issue is converting an exciting engine, without engineering much new parts, as the CBR-125 and CBR-150 share much of the same parts. Engines designed to use a PGM-FI are probably equipped with stronger alloy piston, with different shaped combustion chambers.

I know that Tiger is not produced in China, but I was using it as an example of a cheaper, less reliable and certainly less desirable motorcycle that the Thais spurn. I will grant that for a 6 month period some government official was able to boost their sales numbers for a select model (future buyer's remorse notwithstanding), but that's an anamoly, not the rule.

It sounds like you think there's something special going on when you put fuel injection on a motor. There isn't. It's just an alternative fuel delivery system. From the heads down you can keep all your parts. For example, look at the EFI systems that Edelbrock has to bolt onto a stock small block Chevy motor.

Yes it's really that simple.

.

.

There are no special piston heads required....no special chamber designs...nothing out of the ordinary. The only thing that needs to be done is to make sure your system is correctly delivering the amount of fuel to keep the mixture correct at the engine speed. There's all sorts of ways to do this, from mechanical curiousities that were floating around in the '60s, to a simple airflow meter, to a completely computerized system that measures airspeed, exhaust gas (lambda/O2 sensor), and fuel pressure. You just need to tune it right.

[Richard-BKK]

I'm happy that you solved the problem, we can now expect the CBR-150Ri anytime on the market.

[dave_boo]

I'm happy that you solved the problem, we can now expect the CBR-150Ri anytime on the market.

And I'm sorry that you only had speculation and personal conclusions to add to this thread. I think that if someone is asking a question, we as a community should strive to answer that question in a knowledgeable and friendly manner. I honestly didn't, and still don't know if and or when Honda will release a PGM-Fi model of the 150(or drop the current model to bring a bigger one in), but to come out and say that they won't for whatever reason other than a flat out statement from Honda is simply misleading the Original Poster.

[Richard-BKK]

To the question why the Honda CBR600RR 67mm can handle the stress and the Honda CBR150 63.5mm piston I belief that the following information received from Honda is relevant;

"The CBR600RR Pistons and Connecting Rods features forged slipper-type aluminium pistons. The pistons are also treated with a molybdenum shot-peening process that impregnates the surfaces of the piston with a durable, low-friction coating, just like the treatment applied to the pistons in the RC212V. The pistons are also cooled from underneath by new high-pressure oil jets built into the crankcase, which provide a stream of oil to the undersides of the pistons that effectively wicks away heat buildup."

As most probably know is the RC212V a MotoGP motorcycle, which is build to withstand the extreme, Lets not compare the latest motorcycle technology use in the CBR600RR, with a modified 125cc motorcycle with a, from factory out, bore-up cylinder. Because be fare, I love the CBR150R, hate to see it leave the road, but it is not much more then a cylinder upgrade of the CBR-125.

P.S. I also the Honda CBR600RR is using a PGM-DSFI, the DS stands for Dual Stage, which suppose to solve some of the lean conditions, but that is just what I hear.

Edited January 6, 2008 by Richard-BKK

[Richard-BKK]

It's always fun to read some old articles back... Now only need a 250cc class motorcycle from Honda....

[Yimmy]

Was looking for the European front fairing on ebay etc as it looks about 1000 times nicer than the Asian version.

But no joy.

Wouldn't mind the European released Yammie YZF125R being released over here either.

[dave_boo]

It's always fun to read some old articles back... Now only need a 250cc class motorcycle from Honda....

Why would you resurrect a thread that shows your predictions to be *ahem* not of the best reliability?

For instance, as a link in this thread shows, you stated that 2008 was going to be the last year that the CBR 150R was going to be offered...can you still walk in and purchase one?

[Richard-BKK]

Agree Dave,

Not everything went exactly as predicted, lots of things changed – the whole automotive industry was hit by a crisis for one – the industry crisis changed lots of things on the agenda of manufacturers as Honda.

And it seems that 2010 is the year for 250cc, which was basically what 2009 was planned to be...

I often read older postings, its just fun to read... I selected this posting because it has links to almost all other postings concerning the topic. The link you provide, is already posted in post#4.

All by all my predictions did maybe not be fully correct, I was mostly off by one year.

Anyway... It is just sometimes fun to read older postings. It has little to do with who was right or who was wrong