Can My Thai Wife Leave The House To Me In Her Will?

[GuyDow]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this one, but here goes!

We live in a house I paid for which is built on a plot of land partly owned by my Thai wife and partly owned by her brother. Naturally the house is registered in her name.

We have been discussing wills. Specifically if it is possible for us to arrange things so I can stay on in the house if she pre-deceases me and avoid any possibility of her family selling the place out from under me.

I know she can't just leave the place to me since I can't own property in Thailand and I realise I will have to get legal advice on this. However before I do, has anyone got any pointers on how this might be done?

[sbk]

Moved to housing/landownership/real estate forum

///MOVED///

[yorkman]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this one, but here goes!

We live in a house I paid for which is built on a plot of land partly owned by my Thai wife and partly owned by her brother. Naturally the house is registered in her name.

We have been discussing wills. Specifically if it is possible for us to arrange things so I can stay on in the house if she pre-deceases me and avoid any possibility of her family selling the place out from under me.

I know she can't just leave the place to me since I can't own property in Thailand and I realise I will have to get legal advice on this. However before I do, has anyone got any pointers on how this might be done?

When you talk about "property" you need to differentiate between the house and the land on which it is built.

You can own the house. You will need to convince your wife and her brother to enter into a lease or even better usufruct agreement with you as regards the land. In the event of her death this would still continue to be in force. She can leave you the house in her will, and leave the land to whoever she wishes.

[legag]

It's sad when you have spent your $$$$ from your own pocket for something and yet have to 'convince' or 'ask for' it.

I wish you the best. Get what you have paid for.

Edited January 5, 2008 by legag

[thaigene2]

Check the Posts for USUFRUCT (not sure is correct spelling). Basically it's a bit like a lease - except it's good for life - and (I think) it's added to the chanote/title as an amendment.

The short of it, is that it means you have the right to use the property and out buildings for life, then the owner can do with it what he/she likes.

There are several guys here that have gone that route - so use the search function

[dotcom]

Essentially the answer is no. Because falang are not permitted to own land.

I'm not disagreeing with the prior posters. You seem to have a handle on it. Consult an attorney.

Edited January 6, 2008 by dotcom

[rixalex]

It's sad when you have spent your $$$$ from your own pocket for something and yet have to 'convince' or 'ask for' it.

I wish you the best. Get what you have paid for.

Couldn't agree more. Never understand guys who are happy in relationships where the balance of power is so stacked against them. Some might call it love i guess. For me it's just unhealthy and unfair. Guys that brush these comments aside often regret doing so when/if the relationship ends.

Sorry... i've wandered off topic.

[DragonQuest]

dude you got scammed, its going to her family not yours lol this is THAILAND remember? wht are you gonna do kick her brother out???

[Lazy Sod]

Essentially the answer is no. Because falang are not permitted to own land.

I'm not disagreeing with the prior posters. You seem to have a handle on it. Consult an attorney.

It's apparently Thai law that a Thai wife can leave up to 1 Rai of land to her foreign husband in a will, but then each title needs to be individually approved by a government official before passing to the foreigner, and then it gets a bit murky. Not sure, but it seems the official can choose to ignore the law if they want. I read somewhere that if it's not approved then you have 12 months to sell it to a Thai. Outrageous when you consider the husband paid for it in most cases and will end up an old man with nowhere to live.

Never heard of a foreigner actually inheriting land this way, or far that matter losing it. This issue has popped up on several forum posts over the years, but I've only ever seen speculative responses and NEVER seen a knowledgeable or definitive response from one of the law firms (like Sunbelt or the others) who review this forum. I'm beginning to think they don't know themselves!!!

[lioness]

You can as you already know own the house not the land.

You could have an agreement drawn up which gives you the possessory right over the land and ownership of the house. And put in how you want it to work, i.e. on your death revert to the family or maybe you will want to sell if you find yourself alone, if so you would maybe put in an amount to be paid to the other land owner, these details would be to suit your situation. This agreement is binding upon statutory heirs, legatees, administrators and executors of the estate, custodian, curators, subrogees, receivers, liquidators etc etc.

A lease is ok if you have a chanort, you can have a 30+30+30 year lease ( or a lesser period to suit you) however if the land is not a Chanort title, any long term lease cannot be registered.

[GuyDow]

Thanks for all your input, everyone. This certainly gives me some avenues to explore before speaking to my learned friends.

For the record, I have known my wife for 20 years plus. When we decided to build a house here, I was well aware that it would be her house in every sense of the word. If I ever need to find somewhere else to live, I have contingency plans. My interest is in finding ways to avoid using those contingency plans.

[Arkady]

Your situation is weakened by the fact that the land is jointly owned by your wife's brother. You should get the house transferred to your name now with a usufruct agreement on the land and get your wife to leave her share of the land to you in her will. Then you can leave the house to her in your will. It would be much better still, if you could buy out your wife's brother's share of the land and put the whole plot in her name. However, you structure it his ownership share is likely to cause you problems, if your wife predeceases you. Technically a foreigner can inherit up to a rai of land from his legally married wife but this requires permission from the interior minister and it is not known if this has ever been granted. Otherwise, you have to sell the land within 12 months. If it is half owned by your brother-in-law, you can only sell your half to him and he will only pay a token amount. Anyway you should make sure you are legally married to avoid brothers and sisters having a higher claim to the estate, which they can do even if there is a will ,if you are not married.

[rixalex]

Thanks for all your input, everyone. This certainly gives me some avenues to explore before speaking to my learned friends.

For the record, I have known my wife for 20 years plus. When we decided to build a house here, I was well aware that it would be her house in every sense of the word. If I ever need to find somewhere else to live, I have contingency plans. My interest is in finding ways to avoid using those contingency plans.

The guys always say this - "yeah, i went into it with my eyes wide open" - but then like you, end up looking for ways to secure the asset back into their ownership. My point is, why didn't you consider this in the first place, all those years ago?

[thaibkk]

racist country...

why the fell farang cannot own land and/or house in this country?

you dam_n hel_l can pay for it but cannot own ...

while thais can buy land and house all over the world

protectionist matters, not healthy at all !!!

if any THAI GOVERNEMENT people reading this, CHANGE THE LAW to be equal

[Arkady]

racist country...

why the fell farang cannot own land and/or house in this country?

you dam_n hel_l can pay for it but cannot own ...

while thais can buy land and house all over the world

protectionist matters, not healthy at all !!!

if any THAI GOVERNEMENT people reading this, CHANGE THE LAW to be equal

Unfortunately they don't care. Thailand is now wrapped in an inward looking protectionist/ nationalistic cocoon and it is likely that things will get much worse before they get better. None of the political parties pledged to do anything to liberalize foreign ownership laws and the PPP and its allies didn't even pledge to throw out the last government's bill on the Foreign Business Act which is still sitting at the Commerce Ministry. The next government will probably revive the anti foreigner campaign as a way to score cheap points with the ignorant voters. Things will only change if the economy slumps even further while the rest of Asia is doing well and some one figures out the problem. By that time Burma will have probably opened up and it will be too late for the Thais.

[thaigene2]

Yes of course they don't care - the Issan women or Northern women and their foreign husbands are nothing to them...unless you Chinese with a connection..But that's another story.

Back on topic - the 30+ lease thing is not proven in law. Only a 30 year lease (no extention) is sound.

That's why I said check the Usufruct thing - try Khun Jean (sorry if it's not him - but I recall he might be the guy) - as it gives you the right to live there indefinitely - despite your wife's will.

The brother as an owner is a problem - why did you agree to that?

[GuyDow]

Yes of course they don't care - the Issan women or Northern women and their foreign husbands are nothing to them...unless you Chinese with a connection..But that's another story.

Back on topic - the 30+ lease thing is not proven in law. Only a 30 year lease (no extention) is sound.

That's why I said check the Usufruct thing - try Khun Jean (sorry if it's not him - but I recall he might be the guy) - as it gives you the right to live there indefinitely - despite your wife's will.

The brother as an owner is a problem - why did you agree to that?

The plot was owned by a horde of my wife's relatives. We bought them all out except her brother who hopes, one day, to be able to build a weekend retreat over the far end of the plot. The total size of the plot is 1.5 rai and he has 0.5 rai of it. If necessary we'll split off his bit and register it seperately.

[quiksilva]

racist country...

why the fell farang cannot own land and/or house in this country?

you dam_n hel_l can pay for it but cannot own ...

while thais can buy land and house all over the world

protectionist matters, not healthy at all !!!

if any THAI GOVERNEMENT people reading this, CHANGE THE LAW to be equal

You also can not own land in Singapore, Hong Kong, Vietnam etc...

Guy Down, split the 0.5 Rai and the remainder you can inherit. As others said, you will need to sell within 1 year though. So best to get an usufruct (search this forum) interest on the land.

[backflip]

"You also can not own land in Singapore, Hong Kong, Vietnam..."

Or China.

[Arkady]

The plot was owned by a horde of my wife's relatives. We bought them all out except her brother who hopes, one day, to be able to build a weekend retreat over the far end of the plot. The total size of the plot is 1.5 rai and he has 0.5 rai of it. If necessary we'll split off his bit and register it seperately.

You should really have done this before spending any money on the construction. It is not always easy to subdivide plots at the Lands Dept but you should make strenuous efforts to do this now. I fear that this will otherwise be the spanner in the works, whatever arrangements you make in terms of usufruct, registering the house in your name, will etc. If your wife predeceases you, he will quite likely be able to establish a claim for himself and/or other relatives over the entire plot. Once you have been booted off the land by men with iron bars and the house has either been destroyed or occupied by some one else, you are free to pursue your claims of usufruct etc in the farang friendly Thai justice system. This might happen anyway even if the plot is in your wife's name but at least you would have more of a legal case and the family is less likely to make the attempt. See another thread on TV about this very topic and how seemingly affable Thai in-laws turn hostile over night when a farang's Thai wife suddenly dies. At least one eviction was reported from a house and land paid for by the poster. A golden rule also emerged never to have a joint bank account with any significant amount in it. One or more posters reported that joint bank accounts were cleared out by in-laws soon after their Thai wives died.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Yes of course they don't care - the Issan women or Northern women and their foreign husbands are nothing to them...unless you Chinese with a connection..But that's another story.

Back on topic - the 30+ lease thing is not proven in law. Only a 30 year lease (no extention) is sound.

That's why I said check the Usufruct thing - try Khun Jean (sorry if it's not him - but I recall he might be the guy) - as it gives you the right to live there indefinitely - despite your wife's will.

The brother as an owner is a problem - why did you agree to that?

The plot was owned by a horde of my wife's relatives. We bought them all out except her brother who hopes, one day, to be able to build a weekend retreat over the far end of the plot. The total size of the plot is 1.5 rai and he has 0.5 rai of it. If necessary we'll split off his bit and register it seperately.

Go see a lawyer NOW and get it all underway.

[GuyDow]

The plot was owned by a horde of my wife's relatives. We bought them all out except her brother who hopes, one day, to be able to build a weekend retreat over the far end of the plot. The total size of the plot is 1.5 rai and he has 0.5 rai of it. If necessary we'll split off his bit and register it seperately.

If your wife predeceases you, he will quite likely be able to establish a claim for himself and/or other relatives over the entire plot. Once you have been booted off the land by men with iron bars and the house has either been destroyed or occupied by some one else, you are free to pursue your claims of usufruct etc in the farang friendly Thai justice system.

I have always been aware that the land would end up back with my wife's family if she predeceases me. Consequently, if they then decide I have to move on then I will do so. They won't have to send the boys round.

The situation you describe is one of the downsides to living in the LOS. Hopefully it won't come to this, but if it does then I will accept it and put it behind me.

I don't believe in joint bank accounts either.

[Arkady]

"You also can not own land in Singapore, Hong Kong, Vietnam..."

Or China.

You can in fact own a plot of residential land in Singapore in certain areas and the government is opening up more areas where it wants foreigners to buy high end villas to compete with Malaysia which allows foreigners with retirement visas to buy freehold land with minimal restrictions. It is important to note that in Hong Kong, Vietnam and China the locals cannot own freehold land either. In Hong Kong foreigners have the same rights to buy leasehold land as Hong Kong or Chinese citizens. In China and Vietnam foreigners' rights to buy leasehold land are less than locals but they can usually buy 50 year leases which is better than Thailand's 30 years or usufruct which is supposed to be lifelong but is intended to protect Thai farmers and may not be upheld by a Thai court in favour of a foreigner. In Cambodia locals can own freehold and foreigners can buy 70 year leases with minimal difficulty. Another aspect to compare is the type of lease available. In Thailand a 30 year lease is much the same as a one year lease. It is an agreement between two parties which cannot be reassigned without the owner's permission and may lapse if the owner sells the plot or dies. Usufruct nominally provides lifelong rights but, as I say, it might not hold up in court. It is quite possible that a court would regard a usufruct used by a foreigner to hold residential land as a 30 year lease.

The obvious thing for Thailand to do is to allow longer leases, at least 50 years but preferably longer, which are reassignable exactly like leasehold apartments in other parts of the world. This doesn't involve any emotional changing of laws relating to foreign ownership, since the leasehold laws are the same for Thais. The 1999 Land Act allowed 50 year industrial leases for the first time. Fat hope for anything rational like that with a PPP coalition in power though.