Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[kat]

Thank Arkady, all of your comments are usually right on the mark for me. I wonder if you are an academic and if I've met you previously. Anyway, I'm certainly glad to see that you've surfaced on this thread and I certainly hope that you will stick around.

Well, now I have serious problems with Dechawiwit's statement during the reenactment of the crime. He fired three shots at the Canadians while he was falling down? Three shots that hit the victims in the "five ring"? Are you kidding me? I can't believe he was stupid enough to make that statement. He should have stuck to his original story that he was struggling with Del Pinto over control of the gun and that it went off accidentally. But here is the problem with his statement that he fired three shots while falling down...it doesn't correspond to the wound pattern on Del Pinto. He was shot in the mouth and the bullet exited behind the left shoulder. If he fired the three rounds while falling down, the round that hit Del Pinto in the mouth would have continued on an upward trajectory and should have exited in the lower part of the back of the skull. This proves he is lying. To have the bullet exit behind the left shoulder, Dechawiwit would have had to have been above Del Pinto or Del Pinto would have had to have been lunging down in close proximity to the officer. The Thai cop just hung himself.

Good work and you are clearly right. But I fear this evidence could be easily ignored by the public prosecutor (another notoriously corrupt department in Thailand), who would have very little interest in winning this case, and or the court. The suspect can also change his story to make a better match with the evidence and just say he was confused as a result of the severe beating he got from the two Canadians and apparently from the Thai boyfriend whom the police now say also joined in the attack on the suspect.

The victims are not going to have expensive lawyers shadowing the prosecution, as happened in the case of the gynaecologist with influential family and friends who chopped his wife into pieces and flushed her down the can in two different locations. In that case the lower court acquitted on the grounds that, even though witnesses testified that the suspect had flushed the toilet continuously for hours in both places and DNA matches on many bits of flesh and bone were made in both cess pools, the lack of a complete body meant that there was no evidence that the victim was actually dead! The victim's father also had friends and money and he later won a civil case against the suspect which presented the evidence so well that the public prosecutor was shamed into appealing and eventually secured a conviction and death sentence - recently commuted to life.

The Canadian victims' families clearly don't have high level connections in Thailand or a lot of money. Reisig's family is worrying about how to pay her hospital bills and no one has flown out to give her support. I raise all these examples to emphasise the fact that the entire justice system is totally corrupt in Thailand and that poor people without inflential connections cannot expect anything approaching what Westerners consider justice when they come up against the powerful. There are only a handful of institutions more powerful than the police.

Here's the thing you guys: we have inconsistent and ambiguous statements at best from all sides, and preliminary forensic observations that don't match up with the cop's story. I know the fundamental issue is a drunk cop with a gun and execution-style hits, but if it can be proven that these kids charged him with a gun, wouldn't that have a bearing on the case even in a developed country? I'm sure police everywhere have a procedure or code regarding this issue. Of course, it can never be proven based on unreliable statements and witness accounts, but forensics may be able to add more certainty to this claim as well.

*We also can't "prove" that the cop was drunk, because he left the scene. Nor can we prove that he identified himself as a police officer. Incidentally, did anyone catch in his latest explanation that he was "waiting in line for his food." Had to laugh at that one, because since when does anyone wait in line for food in Thailand. He may be trying to deflect from the fact that he was sitting there drinking for awhile.

Before the abusers come out, I am not absolving anyone of anything but only trying to look at this from multiple angles.

^ But on balance it is unlikley that either would be a police officer.

Regards

Well, that's true and it points out a basic difference between British and American cops. In Great Britain, law enforcement officers are on the whole pretty cuddly, whereas in much of the US today and especially a few decades ago, you best show a bit of respect if you wanted to see the sunrise.

We do not hear repeated and seasonal stories of cops murdering tourists and being released on bail, never mind getting away with it. And, when this occurs with their own citizens, it carries a huge media profile, and when found guilty, cops are convicted and do jail time. Major difference.

*added

Edited January 11, 2008 by kat

[the gent]

If it is right that the Pai police are actually considering prosecuting the girl for resisting arrest then it must surely be time for the Canadian embassy to up their profile if any sort of justice is to be done.

They should issue a press release that the cost of her medical bills and any legal representation will be wholly underwritten by them and disclosing that a formal protest has been lodged at the MFA complaining about the conduct of the case which perhaps should be transferred immediately to the DSI.

The current farce is verging upon the obscene.

The Thai should not be let off the hook on this one otherwise anyone anywhere could be considered fair game. No amount of provocation by unarmed albeit drunken youngsters would justify the mindless slaughter and attempted murder by that wretched excuse for a law enforcement officer.

[Arkady]

Claymore, I am flattered. I have a lot of respect for Andrew but, as I think you said earlier, I don't think I have the nerve to do what he does for a living.

[Arkady]

If it is right that the Pai police are actually considering prosecuting the girl for resisting arrest then it must surely be time for the Canadian embassy to up their profile if any sort of justice is to be done.

They should issue a press release that the cost of her medical bills and any legal representation will be wholly underwritten by them and disclosing that a formal protest has been lodged at the MFA complaining about the conduct of the case which perhaps should be transferred immediately to the DSI.

The current farce is verging upon the obscene.

The Thai should not be let off the hook on this one otherwise anyone anywhere could be considered fair game. No amount of provocation by unarmed albeit drunken youngsters would justify the mindless slaughter and attempted murder by that wretched excuse for a law enforcement officer.

Well there is legal representation and there is a very small number of top notch criminal lawyers who have good connections themselves, so they are not afraid of the police. (Remember what happened to the Southern Muslim lawyer, Somchai?) If they went so far as to pay for a lawyer, they would have no interest either in paying up for the best or in making waves. So she would get a nobody who would advise her to be polite to policemen. I also don't see them pushing for the transfer of the case to the DSI and anyway the local cops have already got their hands on the evidence and the witnesses. The DSI got involved in the Kirsty Jones case and was the liaison for the Welsh detectives who came over. The Chiang Mai police were still able to close ranks successfully and protect their own. The DNA testing of police suspects turned into a farce. I think the Canadian Embassy will want to get this case off their hands as soon as possible and get back to their trade missions and parties. It is a no win for them.

[meom]

Incidentally, did anyone catch in his latest explanation that he was "waiting in line for his food." Had to laugh at that one, because since when does anyone wait in line for food in Thailand. He may be trying to deflect from the fact that he was sitting there drinking for awhile.

I think it don't really matter whether he was waiting for food or drinking. Once the case goes to court the main issue will be if he shot out of self defence or not.

Incidentally I have waited many times in line for food. First you wait in line to place your order and if it's very busy and all available seating is occupied you have to wait a bit more before you can sit down somewhere waiting for your food to be ready.

[Foggy Bottom]

Incidentally I have waited many times in line for food. First you wait in line to place your order and if it's very busy and all available seating is occupied you have to wait a bit more before you can sit down somewhere waiting for your food to be ready.

That's what you get for eating in "good" restaurants - downgrade a bit and slum it with the rest of us who get waited on by delightful young ladies in short skirts

[Claymore]

Claymore, I am flattered. I have a lot of respect for Andrew but, as I think you said earlier, I don't think I have the nerve to do what he does for a living.

I think that was the poster from Chiang Mai. This was on the Nation front page earlier but it seems to have disappeared now

PAI SHOOTING

Safe passage to Canada sought for Thai witness of Pai killing

Published on Jan 11, 2008

The family of 24-year-old Leo Del Pinto, who was shot dead by a Thai policeman in Pai has called on the Canadian government to give safe passage to Carly Reisig and her Thai boyfriend, as they claim they fear for their lives.

In a statement issued through their spokesman Ross Fortune in Calgary the family complained that neither the Canadian or Thai Governments have provided answers to what happened to Leo, 24, from Calgary and Carly Reisig, 24, of Chilliwack, British Columbia early last Sunday morning.

"Carly and her Thai boyfriend are in fear for their lives and feel they require help from the Canadian government. The couple have been threatened that it is not safe for them to return to their residence in Pai as the police officer responsible is still out on bail.

"The Canadian Government has not assigned anyone to watch over and protect Carly and her boyfriend at this point in time. This is of great concern to the Del Pinto family as Carly and her boyfriend are the only two reliable witnesses to the murder of Del Pinto.

"Carly communicated that she and her boyfriend are attempting to return to Canada, where they will feel safer in continuing their pursuit of justice for Leo. This will require special accommodations by the government as her boyfriend is a Thai citizen. The Del Pinto family supports the decision for Carly to return to Canada and asks that the government expedites this process as quickly as possible so that Carly and her boyfriend can be in a safe environment."

Nobody in Pai has come forward to support Carly's claim that Sergeant Uthai Dechawiwat made an unprovoked attack on her and Leo and then deliberately shot Leo in the head, and later on the ground in the heart, before turning his gun on her.

Instead she has been called a 'troublemaker' who caused the incident by hitting the policeman.

Her Thai boyfriend Rattaporn Varawadee has remained by her bedside in Chiang Mai Ram hospital and has been careful to say little apart from "Nothing any of us did justifies the policeman pulling his gun and shooting."

Carly Reisig has insisted she will return for the trial of Sergeant Dechawiwat out of a Canadian Government 'Victims of Crime' fund. Yesterday she made an anxious call to Canada saying the police wanted to take her out of Chiang Mai back to Pai.

Andrew Drummond

Special to the Nation

[kat]

Quote article above:

"Carly communicated that she and her boyfriend are attempting to return to Canada, where they will feel safer in continuing their pursuit of justice for Leo. This will require special accommodations by the government as her boyfriend is a Thai citizen. The Del Pinto family supports the decision for Carly to return to Canada and asks that the government expedites this process as quickly as possible so that Carly and her boyfriend can be in a safe environment."

Good luck on getting the Thai boyfriend out. That requires RTG approval and is a sovereignty issue that is not in the Canadian Government's domain. There is no guarantee that unwanted Burmese migrants and political refugees can seek asylum to another country, never mind a Thai citizen in a police investigation.

[lannarebirth]

Canadian Immigration used to, at least, have very liberal policies for those seeking asylum. If they were to deny it in this instance, the Canadian government will have done even less than the least they could possibly do.

Edited January 11, 2008 by lannarebirth

[kat]

Yes, but asylum from Thailand concerns more than the receiving government, especially in this case. It also requires the permission of the Thai Government, especially of a Thai citizen.

[beammeup]

After reading this thread with interest, I would like to add a few comments. One can easily spot from the replies in this thread the people that may have been to Thailand on holiday, to those people that have been living in this country for some time. The 'holiday' posters are viewing this 'act' with their western values, nothing wrong in that at all, however many Thai's have no interest or understanding of western values.

No matter how angry it will make people, the facts in this case will be what the Thai Police say they will be, why let the truth get in the way of an incident that the Thai's will want to brush under the carpet as soon as possible.

Some posters have asked the question of what was the motive or reasoning behind the off duty Police Officer approaching the couple in the first instance. Those of you that have lived here for some time will understand what I am about to say, others will find this difficult to understand. Most Thai's do not make a decision based on reason or the facts presented before them, they will make a decision based on their feelings, this is why the Police Officer will not admit any guilt or that he had done any wrong, because how could his feelings be wrong!

Many Thai's will only ever feel 'shame' when they have been seen to lose 'face' amongst their peers, they will never feel guilt or admit any responsibility, due to the fact that they carried out the act based on their feelings, and again, how can your feelings be wrong?

I do not condone what happened, I am just trying to explain to some posters that the difference in western and Thai culture is so very deep, that unless you are Thai, no matter how many years you live here, you will never truly understand the Thai mindset. With that said, and hoping that I have not caused any ill feeling to any reader, the out come of this case, as always, will be a positive result for the Police Officer, and anger, and none understanding to every one else.

An excellent post that could only have been improved with paragraph breaks .... so I've added them for you

I am harsh because

She is a liar, a trouble maker, her past and current behavior/actions reflect poorly on all farang in LOS.

But, why do you defend her so? Because she was wounded? Although I've not stated on this thread, but if the local police had handled her previous misbehavior properly this tragedy may not have happened. But they handled it this time and it will not occur again at least involving her.

I'm starting to think the angst and passion (referred to by another poster) are not in defence of the victims, but rather are protest against the unneccesary force used by the officer.

It's a case of del Pinto and Reisig this week, but which of us next week, or next month? Unless the Thai Police learn and improve their methodology and operating procedures from this incident, then it is not just a tragic tale, it is a travesty of opportunity. (and no, I do not mean learn to shoot more accurately - before some wag posts it as a reply).

You may disagree, and I will defend your right to do so .......

.... the same right should be allowed to all posters (who remain civil and courteous to the subjects and to other posters), in addition to all persons who take an interest in the story. The crux of this story now is about rights - the rights of the public to be protected by the police, not persecuted. The rights of the police to receive fair pay and training, allowing them to do their job correctly. And most importantly, the right of laws to be obeyed (e.g. carrying gun off duty / not making a public nuisance or excess noise after midnight / bars closing at the time allotted by national and local laws etc.).

There is one overwhelming angst that I have about Thailand, and I believe it's shared by many here - Thailand likes to refer to foreigners as "guests", but when the chips are down and "guests" require the treatment, and expected privileges, of "guests", they are suddenly treated as vermin and undesirables at both local and institutional levels.

Thais often complain that "farangs" (I am neither French (farang-set) nor an infidel (ferenghi) - which ever version you prefer as origin of "farang" - both are an insult to me personally) do not learn Thai culture, yet, in inviting these "farang" guests, failing to learn the "guests" culture is also a deliberate insult to those guests.

True - foreign visitors should show respect for Thai culture, and the topless, dreadlocked and crew-cut, tattooed, drunkards wandering around Chiangmai really piss me off at their lack of sensitivity towards their hosts' culture. The last time I bought a copy of Lonely Planet or Rough Guide was back in 1999, and even then it clearly stated that going topless was strictly for the beach and poolside - advice I have followed always. It also emphasised that shorts were only for the home, the beach, sports (including pool), and Songkran - again I have always followed this. I have never had a problem with Thais, generally or with officials, due to how I dress. In fact I receive praise for understanding Thai culture in this respect, even though I often consider my dress style to be too casual or to be a "scruff", Thais state I dress politely always.

As someone quoted earlier "the nail that stands out will be hammered down" - in respect to my appearance I have always tried to avoid that particular problem, unlike the "mobs" of latterday hippies that appeared all over Chiangmai earlier this week, and which, according to guest house owners and tour operators I know, abandoned Pai as soon as the shootings became public knowledge. Whenever some of them walked past me I started itching and scratching - it may have been personal prejudice and/or psychosomatic, but that's how they made me feel - imagine how they make the Thais feel.

Gaz

Excellant paragraph breaks! Yah I agree If this killer gets off it could be open season on you and me for raising our voices

[Maxi101]

Actually dear it is WOMAN not man, a women who lived in thailand for many years & who had a few different thai bf before meeting my thai husband. Dont' presume that other people hold the same ridiculous standards to women or western women that you do. Plenty of thai women change bf's & normal thai & non thai people do not view them as deserving any recriminations so this women wouldn't be viewed as a trouble maker or askign for trouble for having 2 (reported) thai bf's either.

Congratulation for that masterpiece !

What would you have done if the first one wouldn't like you quit him, or did he quit you?

Just curious.

maxi

You don't even realise how sexist you are do you? You obviously come from a culture where it is considered "slutty" or immoral for a woman to have more than one boyfriend in her life right?

Damian

Maybe you are just not able to understand what I am talking about.

It has nothing to do with a woman having more boyfriend - she can have 1000th if she wants to.

But what I am saying is because of the differnt culture, ego, call it what you like it, it is riskier for a women to do so in Thailand.

[Maxi101]

I relate it to the danger of lone women in Thailand and the risks of changing the boyfriends.

ok I will go out now....

Amen to that!

And here was little ole me thinking us gals were living in the 21st century NOT Caveman times... (where some posters perhaps still reside....).

Note to self on To Do List: Warn all "Lone Women" of the risks in changing boyfriends... Yeah right... .

Note to self on To Do List: Warn all "Lone Women" of the risks in changing boyfriends....... IN THAILAND.

[Maxi101]

If it is right that the Pai police are actually considering prosecuting the girl for resisting arrest then it must surely be time for the Canadian embassy to up their profile if any sort of justice is to be done.

They should issue a press release that the cost of her medical bills and any legal representation will be wholly underwritten by them and disclosing that a formal protest has been lodged at the MFA complaining about the conduct of the case which perhaps should be transferred immediately to the DSI.

The current farce is verging upon the obscene.

The Thai should not be let off the hook on this one otherwise anyone anywhere could be considered fair game. No amount of provocation by unarmed albeit drunken youngsters would justify the mindless slaughter and attempted murder by that wretched excuse for a law enforcement officer.

You are right, I go with that - she has to see to go out of the country and need all help she can get.

[Theyreallrubbish]

Actually dear it is WOMAN not man, a women who lived in thailand for many years & who had a few different thai bf before meeting my thai husband. Dont' presume that other people hold the same ridiculous standards to women or western women that you do. Plenty of thai women change bf's & normal thai & non thai people do not view them as deserving any recriminations so this women wouldn't be viewed as a trouble maker or askign for trouble for having 2 (reported) thai bf's either.

Congratulation for that masterpiece !

What would you have done if the first one wouldn't like you quit him, or did he quit you?

Just curious.

maxi

You don't even realise how sexist you are do you? You obviously come from a culture where it is considered "slutty" or immoral for a woman to have more than one boyfriend in her life right?

Damian

It doesn't matter what culture he COMES FROM. That's irrelevant to his point.

His point (and I may be putting words in his mouth, if so I apologise) is that a farang women in a rural Thai community who is frequently publicly drunk, publicly loud and aggresive, publicly violent and publicly changes boyfriends frequently is going to generate strong negative feelings against her due to rural THAI CULTURE.

While we all may wish for Thai culture to be exactly the same as the West, this young lady has quite possibly learned the hard way that it isn't and no amount of strength of feeling of moral or cultural superiority changes the reality.

You can accept the reality of the situation you have chosen to put yourself in and adjust to that reality without agreeing with or condoning the reality or you can continue to act as if you were in a different reality. You can guess which pattern of behaviour I believe is less likely to result in walking off a cliff because you believed the road continued.

If a woman in Saudi Arabia goes out in public in revealing clothes she is jailed. Plain and simple. That's the reality if you travel to Saudi. If you choose to disregard that reality you will end up in jail no matter the strength of your convictions that its your right to dress how you wish.

Being in rural Thailand, the reality is that her (alleged) behaviour would have generated significant negative feelings towards her that may have led to tragic consequences.

So in summary she was an arrogant self-absorbed idiot who brought this on herself, but that in no way excuses the behaviour of the cop who should face the full penalty of the law for his murderous actions

[Journalist]

My view is that Thailand burries its head in the sand about things we're not allowed to discuss,

Well, you're discussing it here in relative freedom, so that isn't entirely true.

[Maxi101]

Actually dear it is WOMAN not man, a women who lived in thailand for many years & who had a few different thai bf before meeting my thai husband. Dont' presume that other people hold the same ridiculous standards to women or western women that you do. Plenty of thai women change bf's & normal thai & non thai people do not view them as deserving any recriminations so this women wouldn't be viewed as a trouble maker or askign for trouble for having 2 (reported) thai bf's either.

Congratulation for that masterpiece !

What would you have done if the first one wouldn't like you quit him, or did he quit you?

Just curious.

maxi

You don't even realise how sexist you are do you? You obviously come from a culture where it is considered "slutty" or immoral for a woman to have more than one boyfriend in her life right?

Damian

It doesn't matter what culture he COMES FROM. That's irrelevant to his point.

His point (and I may be putting words in his mouth, if so I apologise) is that a farang women in a rural Thai community who is frequently publicly drunk, publicly loud and aggresive, publicly violent and publicly changes boyfriends frequently is going to generate strong negative feelings against her due to rural THAI CULTURE.

While we all may wish for Thai culture to be exactly the same as the West, this young lady has quite possibly learned the hard way that it isn't and no amount of strength of feeling of moral or cultural superiority changes the reality.

You can accept the reality of the situation you have chosen to put yourself in and adjust to that reality without agreeing with or condoning the reality or you can continue to act as if you were in a different reality. You can guess which pattern of behaviour I believe is less likely to result in walking off a cliff because you believed the road continued.

If a woman in Saudi Arabia goes out in public in revealing clothes she is jailed. Plain and simple. That's the reality if you travel to Saudi. If you choose to disregard that reality you will end up in jail no matter the strength of your convictions that its your right to dress how you wish.

Being in rural Thailand, the reality is that her (alleged) behaviour would have generated significant negative feelings towards her that may have led to tragic consequences.

So in summary she was an arrogant self-absorbed idiot who brought this on herself, but that in no way excuses the behaviour of the cop who should face the full penalty of the law for his murderous actions

Thank you so much, I nearly gave up trying to make myself understood.

And she did bring to herself what ever will come, but brought death to are unknowing and caring exboyfriend who payed that with his life.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Maxi101

[girlx]

er, pai isn't exactly rural thai culture. it has long been inundated by the edgier farangs.

[grantbkk]

I 100% agree with the poster who says that the Thai Police should not attempt prosecute Carly and allow her to leave the country. If they attempt to hold her even the Canadian Embassy will have to take notice. Any attempt to keep her in this country will prolong the media attention this case is receiving in the international press and the country will continue to "lose face".

Personally I think the corpse of the shooting victim will be kept in a warm, dry place until is is just a pile of smelly goop. Then the Thai government will charge a storage fee to his loved ones to have the jars of remains returned to them. This will ensure that forensic evidence will be completely destroyed leading in due course to any civil or criminal case every being filed against the alleged murder.

We live in a developing country people. Nothing we say or do will change that. Part of the allure of Thailand is exactly what we find wrong with it. It appears that generations of foreign people like to dress as pirate style hippies and in the words of Timothy Leary's, "turn on, tune in, drop out". Living a lifestyle from decades past is a personal choice but even here it is scrutinized. People living for months or years without a visible means of support, getting drunk or loaded several times a week will bring the negative attention they came here to avoid. Confrontation with the locals anywhere in the Kingdom has the potential to end badly every time. This should be a learning experience for all of us.

[thaigene2]

Yes - the Canadian Embassy is pretty quiet isn't it. Same with the Foreign Affairs Office in Ottawa. They sure raised a stink when a Canadian-Iranian dual-national was killed in Iran by authorities when she was "caught" taking photos of a prison (or some such place - she was a journalist apparently). The fight got so bad Iran recently kicked the Canadian Ambassador out of the country

But I guess Iran is the whipping boy these days, and Canada doesn't have the balls to speak up for some kids from western Canada - maybe the Govt thinks they are "trailor trash" whereas the other woman in Iran was part of Canada's "elite".

Canada's a funny place - on the one hand it leads the world in many ways in its fight for civil rights and multi-culturalism, but on the other hand it has an inward elitist bias which favours the establishment of Toronto-Ottawa.

Canada should be ashamed for not speaking out publicly in this case - and has shown a clear double standard. Ce vrais, non?

Edited January 12, 2008 by thaigene2

[Maxi101]

Maybe Canada or those who act in behave of Canada know a little better how to act.

Anyway such things are mostly behind the scene and not in public.

They have to do it with a member of the ROYAL Police of Thailand - whoever this might be, ok?

If they overact thing can go worse. Do you want to declare war ?!?!

maxi

[Arkady]

The Thai police must be delighted with the way things are going. They have already succeeded in terrifying Carly into wanting to return to Canada as soon as possible. She is now totally on the defensive as her immediate priority is avoiding being dragged back to Pai for questioning or even to be charged for assaulting a policeman and resisting arrest. They can still legitimately bring charges for her earlier assault of another policeman, if they want. If there is another attempt on her life, she knows they wouldn't miss a second time - more likely a few shotgun blasts from close range from "unknown assailants" like Bank got in Ayudhya.

I think she will stall for a bit trying to get the Canadian Embassy to let her take Fuen back with her. Fuen will not qualify for political asylum and is not even on Canadian soil which is a normal prerequisite. Canada would have to pay for his ticket and be prepared to provide unlimited welfare to Fuen as he does not have money and will find it hard to support himself in Canada as an artist. He would probably not qualify for a tourist visa, if he applied out of the blue. Anyway a move from Canada to issue a visa to Fuen on the apparent grounds that he is likely to be murdered by the Thai authorities, is an absolute diplomatic non non. The best they could manage might be to issue a short term visa on compassionate grounds for him to take care of Carly's psychological trauma. Then maybe it could be extended, if the couple stay together and got married which, given Carly's habit of regularly changing boyfriends, seems unlikely. But my guess is that Canada will try to get Carly out ASAP but stall on Fuen, telling him to fill in applications forms for their ponderous consideration. Once Carly has the prospect of a flight coming up, it won't take much to induce her to leave Fuen to face the music. In the unlikely event the Canadians, gave him a visa, my guess is that the Thais would arrest him for planted drugs or something to stop him from going and discredit him. His departure to protect him from them would be too great a loss of face and they need to work on his testimony. Once Carly is gone, he will quickly fall into line and will eventually testify that, although he was quite far behind and couldn't see too clearly, he thinks he saw something similar to the other villagers ending up with three shots out of sight behind parked cars. Then his life is no worse off than before he met Carly and he might even find another farang girlfriend. Why would he fight the system by himself and end up in prison or dead or maybe see family members killed or maimed?

........Carly is back in Canada without Fuen and has been offered some funding from a crime victims fund after her return has sparked a bit of media interest. It might take some time for the case to come to trial in Thailand and Thai courts have a habit of hearing each case one day a month, rather than continuously until it is finished, as in the West. It doesn't have to be this way. Thaksin made sure the trial of Katherine Horton's killers in Samui was all wrapped up within two weeks with the death sentences he called for handed down. But that was highly unusual and arguably didn't follow due process of law and sentencing procedures. Normally witnesses also have a lot of latitude in doing no shows. The court convenes to hear a witness' testimony. He doesn't show up but sends some one with a medical certificate. The court sets a date for a new hearing a month ahead. A month later the same process is repeated. Meanwhile the folks back in Canada are preparing themselves for a murder trial like the ones they read about in the papers at home. I think they will accommodate Carly, if she ever comes back to testify, by letting her testify on consecutive days, but in general it will be good tactics for the Thais to drag things things out until the case is out of the public eye in Canada. If she does testify, she will be the only witness supporting her view of events and the physical evidence will either be fudged or the suspect's story will be reconstructed to better accommodate it. If the Thais really don't want her to testify, they can issue a arrest warrant for her after she has gone to dissuade her from coming back but I doubt that will be necessary.

In five years time the story will be reduced to annual tributes in the Calgary Herald about the hero who died saving his best friend but was denied justice and follow ups on how Carly is coping with the trauma with whoever she is with at the time. We can but hope that it will not be so.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Arkady

[Journalist]

^ Wasn't the sentence of Katherine Horton's murderers commuted? Reports suggested so.

If they (poor Isaan fishermen) can beat the needle, so can anyone with a shred of influence.

[grantbkk]

Arkady is absolutely right on each aspect of this case. Carley will have the opportunity to return to Canada but she will not set foot in Thailand for the rest of her life. An arrest warrant will be issued and will never be recalled. Next on the agenda for her will be to try to replicate Pai in another developing country. Cambodia, Laos and Burma come to mind. They have the requisite communities already developed for working age people who choose alternative lifestyles. I can recommend similar covens in Central and South America that will easily meet her modest requirements.

[Arkady]

^ Wasn't the sentence of Katherine Horton's murderers commuted? Reports suggested so.

If they (poor Isaan fishermen) can beat the needle, so can anyone with a shred of influence.

It was commuted. I seem to remember on the grounds that they had confessed and cooperated, although the court in sentencing them ruled that the evidence was so overwhelming and the crime so heinous that it wouldn't consider the confessions as mitigation. I don't think there is any possibility of parole for lifers as there is no numerical quantity from which to calculate the percentage of sentence for parole eligibility. However, they will probably get the sentences commuted further and eventually be pardoned in an amnesty, if they live long enough. I guess they will need to last 30 years before they might get out with health and teeth all gone. The option of "informal parole" as allegedly enjoyed by Sgt Somchai in Kanchanaburi would not apply in their case but might well in Uthai's case. In the most extreme case, Uthai will definitely not draw a death sentence. His "exemplary record as a crime buster" and his "co-operation" with the court would be taken into account.

[dannyman]

Sow-Jai!

[kat]

I think she will stall for a bit trying to get the Canadian Embassy to let her take Fuen back with her. Fuen will not qualify for political asylum and is not even on Canadian soil which is a normal prerequisite. Canada would have to pay for his ticket and be prepared to provide unlimited welfare to Fuen as he does not have money and will find it hard to support himself in Canada as an artist. He would probably not qualify for a tourist visa, if he applied out of the blue. Anyway a move from Canada to issue a visa to Fuen on the apparent grounds that he is likely to be murdered by the Thai authorities, is an absolute diplomatic non non. The best they could manage might be to issue a short term visa on compassionate grounds for him to take care of Carly's psychological trauma.

As I said earlier, even in straightforward political asylum cases involving declared persons of concern and political refugees, not even the UNHCR can resettle refugees to third countries out of Thailand if the Thai Government decides to deny permission for them to leave. I've seen the RTG do this when they want to deport Burmese political prisoners back to the Burmese Junta. Fuen is a Thai citizen, in a criminal case against a cop - it is a non-stater. The police have already set up the scenario, by incriminating and charging both Carly and the Thai boyfriend, with one effect for Carly, and another for the Fuen, which is exactly what the government intended.

[Kerryd]

Apparently some people are not really aware of what the Canadian Government or it's Embassy in Thailand responsibilities are in cases like this.

For those who think Canada should fire off a jet full of RCMP criminal investigators, lay off what ever it is you're smoking. If there was sufficient political pressure, the gov't might offer their assistance, but it is highly unlikey that there will be such pressure, and even more unlikely that Thailand would accept the offer. It simply isn't going to happen.

For those that think the Canadian gov't should pay her medical expenses, and hire protection for her, and hire high-priced lawyers, again, it ain't going to happen. Plain and simple.

For one thing, the very instant they did it for one person, there would be a flood of demands from people around the world expecting the same treatment, regardless of their circumstances. For example, Christopher Neil could be screaming right now for the Embassy to hire him a high-priced lawyer to argue his case. How many people would support that ?

This is from the Canadian Embassy (Thailand) website :

Canadians arrested or detained have the right to contact the responsible Canadian government office (embassy, high commission, etc.) listed in Section 5 above. Arresting officials have a responsibility to assist you in doing so. Canadian consular officials can provide a list of local lawyers upon request. (note: they do not hire lawyers for you, or on your behalf)

The procedures required in legal proceedings or police investigations may be different from the procedures in force in the Canadian legal system. Canadians wishing to undertake such proceedings can expect to face long delays and additional efforts in order to resolve their case. The Government of Canada cannot intervene in ongoing legal proceedings in other countries, unless requested to do so by local authorities. Such requests are rare.

What are the chances that the local authorities are going to ask for expert assistance to incriminate one of their own ?

As far as Foreign Affairs is concerned, they are no doubt aware that one person was killed and another wounded. But think about it. What is their briefing going to look like ?

"In Thailand, 1 Canadian was killed and another wounded after being shot by a police officer" End of story. No doubt that if they saw pictures of these two, they would automatically assume that they were up to no good and got shot by a policeman doing his duty.

Regardless if that is wrong (in the opinion of most here), that is what the bureaucrats back home will likely assume.

And should they even have an inkling to look into the matter further, what are they going to see ? A lot of conflicting stories about who said and did what. The gov't isn't going to jump in with the full court press only to find out later that their citizens were commiting a criminal act.

Just like they haven't pressed the matter on Christopher Neil, or the guy that was caught in the Dubai airport with hash in his pocket and poppy flowers (where opium comes from) in his luggage. The embassy provided limited assitance (and he bitched and whined because the government wasn't trying to pressure the UAE into dropping the charges, and the embassy rep only brought him newspapers and magazines once a week, yadda yadda. The UAE gov't did eventually drop the charges, but I suspect if he ever travels through there again, he'll get the full "treatment" from customs and immigration).

As for financial assistance, here is what the Embassy is limited to (regardless of how sympathetic the case is):

"The Canadian government will not pay for your return to Canada; however, Canadian government officials abroad will assist you in contacting relatives and friends to ask them to provide money or tickets for you.

In certain emergency situations and if it is not possible to arrange for funds from private sources, the nearest Canadian government office abroad can provide limited financial assistance out of public funds for a return ticket to Canada. This service is offered only as a last resort and is subject to strict rules. Fees apply.

This loan must be repaid as soon as possible after you return to Canada. You will be required to surrender your passport as a condition of such a loan, and you will have to sign appropriate documents. Your passport will not be returned or reissued until the loan is repaid. These loans carry an interest rate established by the Department of Finance."

So as you can see, there isn't much the Embassy or the government can, or will, do in this case.

Having read every post in thread, I see a lot on similarities with other stories over the years. Stories (on both sides) change, cover-ups, new details about the people involved get revealed (remember that guy who was shot in Chiang Mai by his ex-wife, and all those people that painted such a great picture of this guy, but the truth revealed was that he was more of a con-man than anything, with a lot of shady stuff in his past).

Many people are quick to jump to conclusions, only to find out later that circumstances were not as they seemed.

One thing I wonder about (though I think I know the answer already). Her medical insurance ran out (coincidentally) 3 days before the incident. Her family doesn't know how they will be able to afford the expenses "which could be in the thousands of dollars". So she was in Thailand with no medical insurance and little (if any) money.

I haven't heard mention of her working in any capacity, and if her family can't afford the medical expenses, they probably weren't supporting her financially in any way either.

She is expecting the (Canadian) Victims Fund to pay for her to come back to testify (assuming this ever makes it to court). This would be justified under the guidelines set out for that (but it pretty much only covers travelling to the country in question and back again. Lawyers, hotels, tattoos and "other" expenses wouldn't be covered).

Something else I wonder about. The intial reports mentioned that she was pregnant (with the Thai guy's baby) and this is (presumably) the cause of the argument between her and Pinto.

Where did that information initially come from ? Hardly likely that the police would have just made that up out of the thin air. Someone must have said something to the police when they first arrived. Now that she has denied being pregnant (time will tell perhaps), the police have retracted their initial statement.

Funny thing about Fuen too. He was apparently with them at the bar, was walking a few steps behind them when the incident occured, managed to avoid even a scratch, and no mention made of him except for the one part where he was at the hospital with Carly (who also wants the government to cut strings and bring her b/f to Canada with her, at taxpayer expense of course). No police interview. No media interview. Sure he may be afraid for his life, but if he's sticking close to Carly, surely an intrepid reporter would be able to talk to him.

I'm sure there is a lot going on behind the scenes on both sides. Things are not as "cut and dried" as many would like to believe. I just hope this doesn't fade away into oblivion like so many other stories.

If anyone is interested, the phone number for Foreign Affairs Canada is 001-613-944-4000 or 001-613-996-8885

Or 001-800-156-220-0142

Or email the Foreign Affairs Enquiry Service - [email protected] or the Foreign Affairs Operations Center - Operations Centre of Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada

Or fill out (online) this form and submit it - SOS Online Form

(although it is meant for emergencies, if enough people fill it out and submit it, it may catch someones attention).

[DamianMavis]

This is the whole problem that we have been trying to get through to the more "resistant" of posters. There is NOTHING that can be done to get any other result other than what the police want, they can block all attempts at every turn. AND THIS IS THE WHOLE REASON WE COMPLAIN! There isnt even a chance that the victims (whether guilty or not of instigation themselves) can get a fair chance. The only way to get anything done with the police is to pressure them from above, if someone with power or sway over them says "do this" they will do it, otherwise they protect themselves by any means necessary.

The major issue is that if YOU or ME was put in a similar situation (and dont say it would never happen to you because YOU KNOW how to behave in Thailand, random acts and unlucky things DO happen to good people!) we would be portrayed as bad people no matter what our personalities and they would find a way to pressure the situation so you could do nothing to protect yourself or seek justice. Look at me as an example, I have never had a drink or drugs in my life, but GARUANTEED the initial police statement would be that I was drunk and ornery and causing trouble. There would be other made up stories to cloud the situation (like I wasnt nice or I was rude or I was "fighting" with my non existent Thai girlfriend etc...) and it would look a little like somehow the end result was not actually the fault of the perpetrator but of myself and that is just plain wrong.

Alot of people posting here so desperately want to believe the victims are at fault for DEATH because it makes you feel a little safer and secure thinking that as long as you always act accordingly nothing bad will happen to you. I've avoided at least 20 bad situations here because I WAS SOBER, I'll fully admit that, but there have been a few situations I couldnt avoid no matter what I did or said. If a bad situation arises with someone that is "Connected" it wont matter how polite Ive always been or how sober, I will be the bad guy no matter what and that sucks.

Damian

Edited January 12, 2008 by DamianMavis

[sabaijai]

*We also can't "prove" that the cop was drunk, because he left the scene. Nor can we prove that he identified himself as a police officer. Incidentally, did anyone catch in his latest explanation that he was "waiting in line for his food." Had to laugh at that one, because since when does anyone wait in line for food in Thailand. He may be trying to deflect from the fact that he was sitting there drinking for awhile.

It's dangerous to offer a generalisation like this without having knowledge of the specifics. Daeng's is a roadside place with a cooking cart and a few tables. At that hour of the night - post-Bebop closing - it's pretty common to have to stand in line to get your food. Many locals order takeway at Daeng's, and the police barracks is diagonally opposite Daeng's. You also usually have to stand in line if you intend to eat at a table, if it's crowded, as there are no wait staff. You order at the cart and then sit down to wait for your order. So whether Uthai was ordering takeaway or sitting down -- all witnesses I've spoken to, and that the three reporters I've met here collecting story info have got from their witnesses, acknowledge that Uthai was a patron at Daeng's that night. There is also a consensus that he appeared drunk, whether drinking or eating at Daeng's.

I'm back in Pai now. I don't sense any atmosphere of police at all, everyone's discussing the case quite openly as far as I can tell. If there was fear, witnesses wouldn't be openly commenting on Uthai's apparent inebriation, for example. Uthai, BTW, has been sent to an inactive post in another district in MHS province until the case goes to court (which it should since he has been charged).

I've not checked every post in this thread for the past couple of days, but in case it hasn't already come up, 'Owen Williams' is a pen name for a Western journo living in Thailand.