Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[LoveDaBlues]

I've never been to Pai but have been to numerous places in Thailand. When I talk to local Thais concerning the police with few exceptions they are scared of the police and don't trust them. One Thai lady even told me the Thai police WERE the Thai mafia.

Why would I expect the locals in Pai to be any different?

Tony Clifton.......your post is spot on.

edit: If some of the recent postings are accurate it looks like the pathetic little copper is being hung out to dry.......one can only hope for some justice.

Edited February 15, 2008 by LoveDaBlues

[Boo]

When I talk to local Thais concerning the police with few exceptions they are scared of the police and don't trust them

Have been in hubbies mates bar in Khon kaen (not city but a medium sized town in province) a couple of times when the police have turned up for a drink, hubbies repsonse?? get up & leave as you never know what they might do. There have been instances of gun fire from drunk officers in uniform but not to kill, just "for fun". So I agree with you.

What ever decent ones there are (& I beleive there are many) are overshadowed by the currupt & downright dangerous amoung them imo.

[Foggy Bottom]

Sigh - such unneccesary exceptional length nesting of quotes within posts again

Quoters - please learn to delete the bits you're not directly responding to, or better yet, when responding to a long post, just type the poster's name and post number at the start of your post.

----

Re all the discussion about being fearful of police or not - pause for a moment (and shudder?) and think about how you reacted to the police in your own country.....

Consider the scenario where you're driving along the motorway / freeway / autobahn and a glance in the rear-view mirror tells you a distance police car is catching up with you. What's the first thing you do?

Of course, you glance at the speedo and ease up on the gas a little, making a point of being a few miles/kilometres per hour under the speed limit.

Why do you do this? Is it fear of the police? No, it's fear of what the police can do to you, not least of which is the inconvenience, hassle and time lost by being pulled over to be cautioned about your speed.

Now, in the right context, if you asked people about being scared of the police (if they had the above example preying on their mind) a number would say yes they are scared of the police, when what they actually mean is they're scared of receiving police-related hassle when caught for a minor infraction of the rules.

When living in a small town, with a recent double shooting on everyone's mind, of course many people are going to say they're scared of the police. I'm sure everyone resident in Pai can think of a dozen ways the police could inconvenience them more than pulling them for a speeding ticket, or no helmet on the bike, or ducking wrong way up a one way street. That doesn't mean they paranoically and cringingly worry themselves sick about such events, it just means they are fearful of being the "victim of the day" for whatever the "incident of the day" happens to be.

I live in Chiangmai. Do I fear the police? No, and I have gone head to head with them on occasion, with both them and/or me, drunk. (I've had far more reason to fear the CNX Customs Unit, but that's another story that a few already know, and off-topic).

At othertimes I've just sighed to myself, muttered "fair cop guv'ner" (in Thai I think that would translate to "mai pen rai som nam na"?) and handed over my driving license with a couple of red ones inside it.

I don't generally fear the police, but I do fear what they can cause for me. I read the situation and circumstances and react accordingly. Sometimes I let them win automatically, sometimes I argue it to the bone and they give up and let me win. It depends entirely on how worth it the risks and required results are. Once or twice, I've had mid ranking commissioned cops congratulate me for standing up to "jobsworths" wearing the same uniform as them. Once, I even had one admit he thought the other guy was going to lock me up even though I was 100% correct, even to the point of quoting the regulations accurately from memory.

It's possible to get away with that sort of thing in the "calmness" of a mid-afternoon office environment, but no way would I try it at 2am in a dark soi if both the cop and I were drunk... that would be an occasion for genuinely fearing them if you didn't know the individuals, and for being deferential and saying/doing whatever was needed to get the heck out of there. But it is also incidents like that, that could colour your answer if someone asked, "do you fear the police?".

So, in summary, what I am saying is that bothsides of the "do Pai residents fear the police?" question, has to be taken in context - the context of when, where, and how it is asked, the context of the respondees personal experiences of the police, the context of the respondees lifestyle and activities (do they have a reason to fear being caught doing something?), and the general social context of the moment - in this case, a cop with a drink problem having gunned down two farangs (farangs, not locals, remember the perception difference that locals will apply to that) with his colleagues supporting him towards an acquittal - which signals open season and care blanche if he gets away with it. Yup I'd say there would be an underlying worry, if not fear, until the case is finished with, and maybe beyond that date.

I believe all the posters above arguing the "fear on the streets of Pai" or otherwise, are correct in what they say in both directions, afterall, Thai cultural conditions will encourage delivery of kreng jai by not contradicting the other person, to do so would be delivering loss of face that was avoidable, and result in a lot of merit making being needed ..... and this is tourist high season, so who has the spare time to be making merit right now? That will have to wait for low season, by which time you might forget you have to do it for that farang you disagreed with, and who never came back to your noodle stall after the disagreement.

Take all the above in anyway you will, it makes sense to me.

Gaz

[lannarebirth]

^^ I really don't agree with any of that Gaz ChiangMai. In America, when I see a cop in the rearview mirror, I DO slowdown and get in the outside lane. It's because I usually speed, and I just KNOW he's nailed me. The thing is, the difference between that cop and these cops is, that cop has a limited range of things he can do to me or imply that I have done. Here the range is limitless. In other places they work from objective rules, here, everything is subjective and you have no rights. No comparison to be made whatsoever IMO.

Edited February 15, 2008 by lannarebirth

[A_Traveller]

^ And I have to concur, in a number of countries I've lived in I would not consider myself 'afeared' of the police, even if I was guilty of some infraction. The odd thing is to say, well hand over my licence with a couple of red notes, expecting to walk away. Better to be in a position where the rules are enforced but the parameters are set, here, as lannarebirth says, there are no boundaries, only those that appeal to the officer dependent on what, who, and where you are.

Regards

[kat]

Yes, and I have to reinforce both A_Traveller and lannarebirth. There are different things to fear with any police force or bureaucracy, but being set up on petty charges or planted with evidence in a stacked investigation with no oversight is not one of them.

The deft comment and observation by the poster livinginpai about the new deputy most likely seeking to pay off his transfer and position bribe seems very likely, given what we know and has been documented about the structure of the Thai police.

Thanks very much to livinginpai and invalidusername for coming forward to share their important POVs.

I hope they will continue.

[invalidusername]

I agree there are some farangs who may fear the police, but my impression it's those who are involved in illegal activities (I don't mean to imply you belong to this group, livesinpai), for the most part. No law-abiding farang resident I know in Pai is genuinely fearful. Perhaps it is different groups we know.

Aside from the farang residents involved in illegal activities (speifically drug possession or drug trade for the most part; the biggest dealer in town is farang), I suspect there is also a small - very small - coterie of farangs who have developed an irrational fear of the police following this incident and its heavy press coverage. They aren't stopping to think that the shooting could have occurred anywhere in Thailand, and that in fact incidents of this nature are not that uncommon in various parts of Thailand, as tragic as they may be.

I've been a regular visitor to Pai for over 25 years (first overnight stay in 1981), and have lived their part time (half time in CM, half time in Pai) for the last seven years or so. Most of my Pai local contacts are Thai (or Shan or Yunnanese) rather than farang, and none of the Thai residents I know have told me they feared the police - at least not any more so than anywhere else.

Thais have a blanket term for police, army, and anyone in uniform, phoo mee see, literally 'people having colour' (referring to the colour of their uniforms), whom most Thais will kreng jai (show deferential respect for, bordering on fear), rightly or wrongly, and this applies to Pai police as well. Although I'd say slightly less than in a larger town simply because most Thai residents know each policeman by name and they generally get along well.

Personally I don't know of a single person - whether Thai or farang - in Pai who shares the overall paranoiac view you're presenting. I'm sure they do exist, I'm just questioning their numerical significance. I'm sure in any tourist town in Thailand you'll find similar attitudes among a minority of people. But surely not a majority, in my experience, and I know a large number of folks in Pai.

One view in particular that strikes me as questionable is your statement:

Many types of very enjoyable parties and art and music events that used to occur regularly (including both fliered/announced events, private events, and word-of-mouth public events) no longer occur at all.

My impression is that there are more of these kinds of events going on nowadays than at any previous time in Pai contemporary history. There were so many parties going on last weekend, when the Pai Reggae Festival was going on (and very successful it was, numbers-wise) that one couldn't attend one without missing another. Even the bars are staying open longer nowadays (Phu Pai, for example, till 1am, Ting Tong till 2am). In contrast with the regime of the previous police chief, who did crack down on parties and bars in general, the current chief seems to be more laissez faire than any chief in the last four years. I'm not bigging up the chief entirely, as to me he deserves part of the blame in the tragedy, as clearly Uthai had a drinking problem and should have been released from duty or sent to rehab at the very least. But Pai has seen much worse in the relatively recent past.

That said there are a considerable number of Pai residents, both foreign and Thai, who would like to see fewer parties and fewer bars, in Pai. Not to mention less tourism. I suppose if you own a tourism-dependent business in Pai, you won't like the current publicity regarding the town.

Just to answer Claymore's insinuations, I own no property and no businesses there, and have only personal and social interests in Pai, same as I do for Chiang Mai (and, for that matter, the remainder of Thailand).

Even though we disagree, it's good to hear from at least one other person that actually knows Pai.

sabaijai - normally you post quite sensibilty, but in this post you either are taking ques from this guy:

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ThaiTalk/2008/02/09/entry-2

and have gone native in the worst way

or really need to visit pai more often to update yourself on the facts of the situation.

I hope that it is the latter.

Edited February 15, 2008 by invalidusername

[sriracha john]

Calgarian's death in Thailand to be probed

Thailand's Human Rights Commission is calling for an independent probe into last month's shooting death of a Calgary man.

Leo Delpinto, 24, died after being shot in the face and chest. Delpinto was killed during an altercation with an off-duty police officer in the northern town of Pai. The sergeant said he was trying to break up a fight between Delpinto and his friend, when the shooting happened. He has pleaded not guilty to murder. The body of Delpinto was returned to Calgary last month.

Thailand’s Human Rights Commission has published a report suggesting police botched their investigation.

There are reports Thailand's top forensic scientist has provided evidence contradicting the police version of events.

Delpinto’s girlfriend was also shot, but she survived.

- calgary.ctv.ca

[sriracha john]

Dead Canadian's father wants stronger warnings about Thailand

CALGARY - Canada should issue stronger warnings about Thailand in the wake of another violent attack this week, says the father of Leo Del Pinto, who was gunned down in early January.

Ernie Del Pinto said Ottawa needs to "red flag" Thailand, especially since there have been two more shootings since his son Leo died six weeks ago. Earlier this week, Ontario doctor Erik Griffioen was shot in the back while he rode in an open-sided taxi in the tourist city of Chiang Mai.

"We have to stop and say, 'Hey, our Canadians are going abroad to Thailand and something's happening. They're getting shot. They're getting killed," Del Pinto said from his Calgary home.

"And this should not happen. Our governments have to work and stop this, they have to get it together and do something about it."

The Del Pinto family has worked hard to get answers and justice since Leo was shot in the head and chest in the northern town of Pai on Jan. 6

An off-duty Thai police sergeant was arrested for Del Pinto's murder as well as attempted murder in the shooting of his friend, Carly Reisig of Victoria, who was badly injured.

But the policeman has pleaded not guilty and is out on bail. He has claimed self defence in the shootings and said he was just trying to break up a fight between the two Canadians when they turned on him.

But a report Friday said Thailand's Human Rights Commission has issued a report saying Thai police botched their investigation into Del Pinto's death.

It said the commission is asking the Thai Prime Minister for an independent probe by the Justice Ministry's Department of Special Investigation.

And it said the country's top forensic scientist revealed that Del Pinto was shot in the head from above, refuting the theory that the policeman shot him while falling backwards and being overpowered by the Canadians.

Ernie Del Pinto, who has maintained that the Thai police are involved in a coverup, welcomed the news.

"I think that the civil rights commission and the forensic unit should be on their own, in conjunction with our government and the Thai government," he said.

"If they don't work together, it doesn't get resolved."

- The Canadian Press

Edited February 16, 2008 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

Calgarian's death needs independent probe, says Thai commission

Thailand's Human Rights Commission has published a report suggesting Thai police botched their investigation into a Calgary man's shooting death last month.

Leo Del Pinto, 24, was shot and killed after an altercation with an off-duty Thai police officer in the northern town of Pai on Jan. 6. His friend, Carly Reisig, was also shot and injured in the incident.

An internal police investigation found the police officer acted in self defence, but a report by the Human Rights Commission released Friday refutes that claim.

- CBC News

[Claymore]

Calgarian's death needs independent probe, says Thai commission

Thailand's Human Rights Commission has published a report suggesting Thai police botched their investigation into a Calgary man's shooting death last month.

Leo Del Pinto, 24, was shot and killed after an altercation with an off-duty Thai police officer in the northern town of Pai on Jan. 6. His friend, Carly Reisig, was also shot and injured in the incident.

An internal police investigation found the police officer acted in self defence, but a report by the Human Rights Commission released Friday refutes that claim.

More detail here

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2008/02/15/delpinto

- CBC News

Calgarian's death needs independent probe, says Thai commission

Last Updated: Friday, February 15, 2008 | 9:46 AM MT

CBC News

Thailand's human rights commission has published a report suggesting Thai police botched their investigation into a Calgary man's shooting death last month.

Leo Del Pinto, shown in an undated family photo, was shot in the torso and face in northern Thailand.

(Ross Fortune)

Leo Del Pinto, 24, was shot and killed after an altercation with an off-duty Thai police officer in the northern town of Pai on Jan. 6.

His friend, Carly Reisig, was also shot and injured in the incident.

An internal police investigation found the police officer acted in self defence, but a report by the human rights commission released Friday refutes that claim

"Thailand's top forensic scientist stepped in and revealed categorically that when Leo Del Pinto was shot, he was shot from above," reporter Andrew Drummond told CBC News from Bangkok.

"Somebody was shooting down into his head and that totally contradicts police evidence that says the policeman was falling back and he was being overpowered by the foreigner."

Sgt. Uthai Dechawiwat re-enacted his role in the shooting for Thai investigators in January.

(CBC)

The commission is asking the Thai prime minister for an independent probe by the justice ministry's Department of Special Investigation.

"I spoke to the human rights commissioner today and essentially it looks like the police have backed down on the case. They're no longer claiming it was an accident," Drummond said.

Sgt. Uthai Dechawiwat has pleaded not guilty to murder and attempted murder. He said he was trying to break up a fight between Del Pinto and Reisig.

But Reisig told CBC News in January that the off-duty policeman punched her in the face as she and Del Pinto were leaving a restaurant and that her friend stepped in to defend her.

The commission has heard evidence from two local witnesses, backing Reisig's account. They are now in protective custody.

[Claymore]

Calgarian's death needs independent probe, says Thai commission

Thailand's Human Rights Commission has published a report suggesting Thai police botched their investigation into a Calgary man's shooting death last month.

Leo Del Pinto, 24, was shot and killed after an altercation with an off-duty Thai police officer in the northern town of Pai on Jan. 6. His friend, Carly Reisig, was also shot and injured in the incident.

An internal police investigation found the police officer acted in self defence, but a report by the Human Rights Commission released Friday refutes that claim.

More detail here

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2008/02/15/delpinto

- CBC News

Calgarian's death needs independent probe, says Thai commission

Last Updated: Friday, February 15, 2008 | 9:46 AM MT

CBC News

Thailand's human rights commission has published a report suggesting Thai police botched their investigation into a Calgary man's shooting death last month.

Leo Del Pinto, shown in an undated family photo, was shot in the torso and face in northern Thailand.

(Ross Fortune)

Leo Del Pinto, 24, was shot and killed after an altercation with an off-duty Thai police officer in the northern town of Pai on Jan. 6.

His friend, Carly Reisig, was also shot and injured in the incident.

An internal police investigation found the police officer acted in self defence, but a report by the human rights commission released Friday refutes that claim

"Thailand's top forensic scientist stepped in and revealed categorically that when Leo Del Pinto was shot, he was shot from above," reporter Andrew Drummond told CBC News from Bangkok.

"Somebody was shooting down into his head and that totally contradicts police evidence that says the policeman was falling back and he was being overpowered by the foreigner."

Sgt. Uthai Dechawiwat re-enacted his role in the shooting for Thai investigators in January.

(CBC)

The commission is asking the Thai prime minister for an independent probe by the justice ministry's Department of Special Investigation.

"I spoke to the human rights commissioner today and essentially it looks like the police have backed down on the case. They're no longer claiming it was an accident," Drummond said.

Sgt. Uthai Dechawiwat has pleaded not guilty to murder and attempted murder. He said he was trying to break up a fight between Del Pinto and Reisig.

But Reisig told CBC News in January that the off-duty policeman punched her in the face as she and Del Pinto were leaving a restaurant and that her friend stepped in to defend her.

The commission has heard evidence from two local witnesses, backing Reisig's account. They are now in protective custody.

RefL NHCR report:

Actually Drummond did not use the word 'botched' and its unlikely you will find it in the NHCR report before anyone complains. He is being sent a copy of the report. I guess he will make the report available here.

[sabaijai]

Sigh - such unneccesary exceptional length nesting of quotes within posts again

Quoters - please learn to delete the bits you're not directly responding to, or better yet, when responding to a long post, just type the poster's name and post number at the start of your post.

----

Re all the discussion about being fearful of police or not - pause for a moment (and shudder?) and think about how you reacted to the police in your own country.....

Consider the scenario where you're driving along the motorway / freeway / autobahn and a glance in the rear-view mirror tells you a distance police car is catching up with you. What's the first thing you do?

Of course, you glance at the speedo and ease up on the gas a little, making a point of being a few miles/kilometres per hour under the speed limit.

Why do you do this? Is it fear of the police? No, it's fear of what the police can do to you, not least of which is the inconvenience, hassle and time lost by being pulled over to be cautioned about your speed.

Now, in the right context, if you asked people about being scared of the police (if they had the above example preying on their mind) a number would say yes they are scared of the police, when what they actually mean is they're scared of receiving police-related hassle when caught for a minor infraction of the rules.

When living in a small town, with a recent double shooting on everyone's mind, of course many people are going to say they're scared of the police. I'm sure everyone resident in Pai can think of a dozen ways the police could inconvenience them more than pulling them for a speeding ticket, or no helmet on the bike, or ducking wrong way up a one way street. That doesn't mean they paranoically and cringingly worry themselves sick about such events, it just means they are fearful of being the "victim of the day" for whatever the "incident of the day" happens to be.

I live in Chiangmai. Do I fear the police? No, and I have gone head to head with them on occasion, with both them and/or me, drunk. (I've had far more reason to fear the CNX Customs Unit, but that's another story that a few already know, and off-topic).

At othertimes I've just sighed to myself, muttered "fair cop guv'ner" (in Thai I think that would translate to "mai pen rai som nam na"?) and handed over my driving license with a couple of red ones inside it.

I don't generally fear the police, but I do fear what they can cause for me. I read the situation and circumstances and react accordingly. Sometimes I let them win automatically, sometimes I argue it to the bone and they give up and let me win. It depends entirely on how worth it the risks and required results are. Once or twice, I've had mid ranking commissioned cops congratulate me for standing up to "jobsworths" wearing the same uniform as them. Once, I even had one admit he thought the other guy was going to lock me up even though I was 100% correct, even to the point of quoting the regulations accurately from memory.

It's possible to get away with that sort of thing in the "calmness" of a mid-afternoon office environment, but no way would I try it at 2am in a dark soi if both the cop and I were drunk... that would be an occasion for genuinely fearing them if you didn't know the individuals, and for being deferential and saying/doing whatever was needed to get the heck out of there. But it is also incidents like that, that could colour your answer if someone asked, "do you fear the police?".

So, in summary, what I am saying is that bothsides of the "do Pai residents fear the police?" question, has to be taken in context - the context of when, where, and how it is asked, the context of the respondees personal experiences of the police, the context of the respondees lifestyle and activities (do they have a reason to fear being caught doing something?), and the general social context of the moment - in this case, a cop with a drink problem having gunned down two farangs (farangs, not locals, remember the perception difference that locals will apply to that) with his colleagues supporting him towards an acquittal - which signals open season and care blanche if he gets away with it. Yup I'd say there would be an underlying worry, if not fear, until the case is finished with, and maybe beyond that date.

I believe all the posters above arguing the "fear on the streets of Pai" or otherwise, are correct in what they say in both directions, afterall, Thai cultural conditions will encourage delivery of kreng jai by not contradicting the other person, to do so would be delivering loss of face that was avoidable, and result in a lot of merit making being needed ..... and this is tourist high season, so who has the spare time to be making merit right now? That will have to wait for low season, by which time you might forget you have to do it for that farang you disagreed with, and who never came back to your noodle stall after the disagreement.

Take all the above in anyway you will, it makes sense to me.

Gaz

Well put.

[sabaijai]

I agree there are some farangs who may fear the police, but my impression it's those who are involved in illegal activities (I don't mean to imply you belong to this group, livesinpai), for the most part. No law-abiding farang resident I know in Pai is genuinely fearful. Perhaps it is different groups we know.

Aside from the farang residents involved in illegal activities (speifically drug possession or drug trade for the most part; the biggest dealer in town is farang), I suspect there is also a small - very small - coterie of farangs who have developed an irrational fear of the police following this incident and its heavy press coverage. They aren't stopping to think that the shooting could have occurred anywhere in Thailand, and that in fact incidents of this nature are not that uncommon in various parts of Thailand, as tragic as they may be.

I've been a regular visitor to Pai for over 25 years (first overnight stay in 1981), and have lived their part time (half time in CM, half time in Pai) for the last seven years or so. Most of my Pai local contacts are Thai (or Shan or Yunnanese) rather than farang, and none of the Thai residents I know have told me they feared the police - at least not any more so than anywhere else.

Thais have a blanket term for police, army, and anyone in uniform, phoo mee see, literally 'people having colour' (referring to the colour of their uniforms), whom most Thais will kreng jai (show deferential respect for, bordering on fear), rightly or wrongly, and this applies to Pai police as well. Although I'd say slightly less than in a larger town simply because most Thai residents know each policeman by name and they generally get along well.

Personally I don't know of a single person - whether Thai or farang - in Pai who shares the overall paranoiac view you're presenting. I'm sure they do exist, I'm just questioning their numerical significance. I'm sure in any tourist town in Thailand you'll find similar attitudes among a minority of people. But surely not a majority, in my experience, and I know a large number of folks in Pai.

One view in particular that strikes me as questionable is your statement:

Many types of very enjoyable parties and art and music events that used to occur regularly (including both fliered/announced events, private events, and word-of-mouth public events) no longer occur at all.

My impression is that there are more of these kinds of events going on nowadays than at any previous time in Pai contemporary history. There were so many parties going on last weekend, when the Pai Reggae Festival was going on (and very successful it was, numbers-wise) that one couldn't attend one without missing another. Even the bars are staying open longer nowadays (Phu Pai, for example, till 1am, Ting Tong till 2am). In contrast with the regime of the previous police chief, who did crack down on parties and bars in general, the current chief seems to be more laissez faire than any chief in the last four years. I'm not bigging up the chief entirely, as to me he deserves part of the blame in the tragedy, as clearly Uthai had a drinking problem and should have been released from duty or sent to rehab at the very least. But Pai has seen much worse in the relatively recent past.

That said there are a considerable number of Pai residents, both foreign and Thai, who would like to see fewer parties and fewer bars, in Pai. Not to mention less tourism. I suppose if you own a tourism-dependent business in Pai, you won't like the current publicity regarding the town.

Just to answer Claymore's insinuations, I own no property and no businesses there, and have only personal and social interests in Pai, same as I do for Chiang Mai (and, for that matter, the remainder of Thailand).

Even though we disagree, it's good to hear from at least one other person that actually knows Pai.

sabaijai - normally you post quite sensibilty, but in this post you either are taking ques from this guy:

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ThaiTalk/2008/02/09/entry-2

and have gone native in the worst way

or really need to visit pai more often to update yourself on the facts of the situation.

I hope that it is the latter.

Care to be more specific about what you disagree with, and why?

[sabaijai]

I don't think 'execution' is the correct term here, as it implies killing by order of someone else (eg, mafia, government, etc). Isn't 'murder' good enough? Not sure there's a crime called 'execution'

execution

noun

1. putting a condemned person to death

2. the act of performing; of doing something successfully; using knowledge as distinguished from merely possessing it; "they criticised his performance as mayor"; "experience generally improves performance" [syn: performance]

3. (computer science) the process of carrying out an instruction by a computer

4. (law) the completion of a legal instrument (such as a contract or deed) by signing it (and perhaps sealing and delivering it) so that it becomes legally binding and enforceable

5. a routine court order that attempts to enforce the judgment that has been granted to a plaintiff by authorizing a sheriff to carry it out

6. the act of accomplishing some aim or executing some order; "the agency was created for the implementation of the policy"

7. unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being [syn: murder]

Yup, last in the line, meaning least supported by common usage.

Well, obviously common usage is going to vary by frequency and relevance from place to place. Your argument is largely a semantic one anyway, and as we have shown, an incorrect one as well.

More prescriptivism!

[Briggsy]

Re Travel Warnings

This issue will never go forward if people fire at it using a scatter gun. Western governments are never going to issue travel warnings stating "Thailand is dangerous". For one, many facts would tend to contradict this such as a relatively low level of muggings and robbery by strangers when compared to South American countries for example.

What may well be more informative and helpful for people considering whether or not to visit Thailand is more specific information. This could take the form of an objective description of the role police play in Thailand including details of areas in which they lack competence and discipline and the extent to which corruption is present. Also some advice could be given as to what the foreigner should do in case they are involved in any situation involving the police. Who can they contact for assistance and what level of assistance can be expected.

An advisory like this may have a positive effect on the Thai police to pull their socks up.

Personally I very much doubt that any government would go this far as it would be counter-productive in terms of the interests of the foreign government. Co-operation in extradition cases may not be rendered etc. Travel advisories tend to be limited to areas of severe lawlessness (e.g. some parts of Albania) and countries or areas where foreigners will be specifically targetted (e.g. Jolo)

[pickel]

Re Travel Warning

On an almost daily basis Canadians are killed in CANADA. Shall a travel warning be issued there as well?

[invalidusername]

I agree there are some farangs who may fear the police, but my impression it's those who are involved in illegal activities (I don't mean to imply you belong to this group, livesinpai), for the most part. No law-abiding farang resident I know in Pai is genuinely fearful. Perhaps it is different groups we know.

Aside from the farang residents involved in illegal activities (speifically drug possession or drug trade for the most part; the biggest dealer in town is farang), I suspect there is also a small - very small - coterie of farangs who have developed an irrational fear of the police following this incident and its heavy press coverage. They aren't stopping to think that the shooting could have occurred anywhere in Thailand, and that in fact incidents of this nature are not that uncommon in various parts of Thailand, as tragic as they may be.

/snip

Personally I don't know of a single person - whether Thai or farang - in Pai who shares the overall paranoiac view you're presenting. I'm sure they do exist, I'm just questioning their numerical significance. I'm sure in any tourist town in Thailand you'll find similar attitudes among a minority of people. But surely not a majority, in my experience, and I know a large number of folks in Pai.

My impression is that there are more of these kinds of events going on nowadays than at any previous time in Pai contemporary history. There were so many parties going on last weekend, when the Pai Reggae Festival was going on (and very successful it was, numbers-wise) that one couldn't attend one without missing another. Even the bars are staying open longer nowadays (Phu Pai, for example, till 1am, Ting Tong till 2am). In contrast with the regime of the previous police chief, who did crack down on parties and bars in general, the current chief seems to be more laissez faire than any chief in the last four years.

/snip

Care to be more specific about what you disagree with, and why?

Sabaijai

Thank you for your reply. I have sniped your previous post to point out the sections in which i disagree.

I am a 'fully law abiding citizen' and do nothing illegal including smoking which I havnt touched for over 3 years. My friends include those that smoke, and those that dont. Most these days don't.

Most of my friends don't even drink nor go out past 8pm as they have familes. We are not a small 'coetrie' of falang. We are the ever growing extended family that has been here since the beginning.

I even imgine the opnion of falang who live in pai and do in fact drink and go out is even more opionnated in this matter, but we will have to ask them.

Tourists who come to pai for a few days will generally have no idea on what is going on, however anybodywho has stayed here for any length of time will well know that the police are 'searching' They are regually looking for things wrong, people they can jump on. It is not the pleasent small town atmosphere. It is probably not either an 'opressive police state' either. However people must walk on egg-shells as the police are like bullies.

To refrence your statement regarding the 'old cheif' and his enforcement of dance etc....

In the old days yes, the police enforced some silly laws, closing times etc.... But there was not malice in their enforcement. They were doing something and maybe somebody got arrested. But it was quickly laughed off and finished and everybody was friends. I remember one of our brothers (u know who) getting busted 3-4 years ago for having the black stuff. He laughed, called his daddy, went to court, payed a small fine and then it was forgotten. Nothing like the current admin who threw a falang in Mae Hon Song Jail for 21 days for failing a pot piss test after they pulled him off his bicycle.

Just 2 years before I had friends who got busted holding at the waterfall. It was an afternoon in Pai jail with the police making fun of him that he got caught. then bail and a court date with a 2000 baht fine. Not the same

And what about the resturant bar owner and his friend being deported and thrown into the hole.

What about the police paddy wagon showing up at parties and pulling whoever they dont like the looks of.

The curent administration has malice and greed in their enforcement. They are like a hungry jackal who has been droped in the middle of no-where with no real criminals to arrest, so they start creating the criminals, themselves included.

And as for your information about the biggest dealer in town being falang, that is un-informed rhetoric and a cheap shot on your part. The person you are reffering to never has been a dealer, but just a chronic smoker who liked to share with friends. I can also say that he hasn't smoked in over a year and even had his home invaded last year by 20 police officers who did not remove their shoes when entering his home and left scratching their head that they couldn't find anything.

Anyways, my point is that it is not how you say. Life goes on you know. It may never be the way it was with the monthly Police-Falang football friendlies, however the problem is that the police are acting like the residents and tourists in pai are hardend crimnials.

I suspect the reasons for the change are two fold

1- The current cheif is used to dealing in areas where there are significant crime issues, both with Falang and thais. The problem is that aside from the normal village hijinx or a police officer shooting somebody or himself, there is not an excess of crime. This leaves the police cheif confused and feeling useless, so he has to go out and create some crime

2- There is a certian lobby of Thai-Bangkok (note that Thai and Thai-Bangkok are two different races of people) who have decided that they don't want falang or even the shabby thai tourist. They have funded the police (note the new paddy wagon and new station being built) to systmaticlly exterminate and terroize out of pai this element that they find dissagreeable. The polices actions are very concentrated and malice in their efforts. Instead of the normal 'hah hah - i caught you, pay a fine and have fun falang.' The police are working with agenda as they are being payed well by this group.

[thaigene2]

Re Travel Warning

On an almost daily basis Canadians are killed in CANADA. Shall a travel warning be issued there as well?

Okay - you raise a point. So I checked.

Using 2006 as a year that had comparable stats, here's what i found.

According to the Canadian Govt, the murder rate in Canada that year was 605, or 1.85 per 100,000 people.

According to TAT (Thailand's tourist authority) there were 183,094 Canadian tourist arrivals in Thailand that same year. So if the murder rate was to be the same here or there for the unlucky Canucks, slightly more than 3 Canadians would have been murdered here in Thailand that year.

However - bear in mind that's an entire year, not just a six week period. Granted these things can happen coincidentally in clusters. At any rate, the Canadian "quota" has now been reached for the year, wouldn't you agree?

[Prakanong]

I had a drink in Singapore yesterday with the brewer from the microbrewery "The Pump Room" here in Singapore. He could not beleive this had happened in Pai and did not know about it till I told him.

[pickel]

Yes, the quota has almost been reached, but it wouldn't surprise me if Canadians in Thailand made it through the rest of the year unscathed. Any way to find out how many Canadians were killed in Thailand in 2006? Also I think the number of murders in Canada will be much higher this year with the rising rate of gangs and gun crimes in Vancouver and Toronto as well as an unusual rise in multiple murder suicides that has been seen there lately. I don't know the exact figures, it's simply my own perception, as well as policemen I know. If any travel warning should be issued here, it should be one about pedestrians not having the right of way in traffic. A much more dangerous situation IMO.

[thaigene2]

Also I think the number of murders in Canada will be much higher this year with the rising rate of gangs and gun crimes in Vancouver and Toronto as well as an unusual rise in multiple murder suicides that has been seen there lately. I don't know the exact figures, it's simply my own perception, as well as policemen I know.

You're probably both right about that - especially...with all those idiotic Mounties killing unarmed Polish guys at the Vancouver Airport.. How many RCMP does it take to calm down an irate passenger? Four - one to tazer him to death and three to check each other's kevlar vests for proper fittings

[Arkady]

The similarities between the two cases as far as I can recall (AD is in Singapore right now) are (1) in both cases a Thai policeman claimed he was interrupting a foreign couple fighting (2) in both cases both foreigners were shot, not just one (3) in both cases the policeman fled the scene (4) in both cases they later surrendered by appointment (5) in both cases they received extraordinary help from fellow officers (6) in both cases they were free pending trial,(7) In both cases the female victim was described as having loose morals (8) and in both cases it looks like local people (Pai and Kanchanaburi) will not testify against the local police about the actual shooting. (The last one I added myself).

People shd bear in mind that despite Uthai's alleged state of innebriation he succeeded in putting a bullet close to Reisig's heart and shot Del Pinto in a way in which he must have known Del Pinto would not survive. One bullet to the torso (liver and kidneys) and one to the head, either of which wd have been fatal.

I don't see any problem in comparing the Kanchanaburi and Pai murders. The similarities are disturbingly striking. Whether you want to call it execution or premeditated murder doesn't matter too much to me. What is important is that both cops clearly intended to kill their victims, although Somchai went to more grotesque lengths to make sure no one survived. I don't understand why certain posters seem to feel that because they are in Thailand they have to drop all civilized standards and bend over backwards to justify police brutality and avoid causing offense to the gallant little men in brown. A spade is a spade is a spade.

[sabaijai]

I won't address the other points you made, as they're merely opinion so we'll just have to agree to disagree. But I wanted to address this one:

And as for your information about the biggest dealer in town being falang, that is un-informed rhetoric and a cheap shot on your part. The person you are reffering to never has been a dealer, but just a chronic smoker who liked to share with friends. I can also say that he hasn't smoked in over a year and even had his home invaded last year by 20 police officers who did not remove their shoes when entering his home and left scratching their head that they couldn't find anything.

How would you know who I was referring to? I mentioned no name, not even a nationality.

[sabaijai]

Re Travel Warnings

This issue will never go forward if people fire at it using a scatter gun. Western governments are never going to issue travel warnings stating "Thailand is dangerous". For one, many facts would tend to contradict this such as a relatively low level of muggings and robbery by strangers when compared to South American countries for example.

What may well be more informative and helpful for people considering whether or not to visit Thailand is more specific information. This could take the form of an objective description of the role police play in Thailand including details of areas in which they lack competence and discipline and the extent to which corruption is present. Also some advice could be given as to what the foreigner should do in case they are involved in any situation involving the police. Who can they contact for assistance and what level of assistance can be expected.

An advisory like this may have a positive effect on the Thai police to pull their socks up.

Good point, and something I've advocated all along.

Personally I very much doubt that any government would go this far as it would be counter-productive in terms of the interests of the foreign government. Co-operation in extradition cases may not be rendered etc. Travel advisories tend to be limited to areas of severe lawlessness (e.g. some parts of Albania) and countries or areas where foreigners will be specifically targetted (e.g. Jolo)

Very true.

[invalidusername]

I won't address the other points you made, as they're merely opinion so we'll just have to agree to disagree. But I wanted to address this one:

And as for your information about the biggest dealer in town being falang, that is un-informed rhetoric and a cheap shot on your part. The person you are reffering to never has been a dealer, but just a chronic smoker who liked to share with friends. I can also say that he hasn't smoked in over a year and even had his home invaded last year by 20 police officers who did not remove their shoes when entering his home and left scratching their head that they couldn't find anything.

How would you know who I was referring to? I mentioned no name, not even a nationality.

To your first point, that is fine then we can both agree that both what you and I have written on this are opinions and nothing else needs to be said.

as for the dealer question.

I know for a fact that there is no 'biggest falang dealer' in pai and that if any falang deals, then it is not for long eough and large enough to gain that title. () Therefore the only possible person that you could have been reffering to in this statement is just an obvious scapegoat who is all too easy to accuse of things.

That is of course unless you are reffering to people that would sell somthing harder than smoke in which case I would bow to your epxertise on this subject as I would have no knowledge of such things.

[Westerby]

And in the absence of practical advisories from such sources it is even more important that we have journalists like Drummond who not only report matters as they are, rather than how some apologists would have you believe, but who also are instrumental in obtaining justice through their intervention.

As ever, it is the fourth estate that propels societies to true democracy and their champions should be honoured.

[thaigene2]

Good job to the Del Pinto's for their Nation Letters to the Editor - same to "Carl". The paper will run with this (because they think they can make it look like the present PPP Government is at fault and incompetent - of course we know it has nothing to do with that, but so what -- if it works, it works).

Always look for an entry point...keep it up. You can easily see these vested interests at work on this little Website..and realize that we are at a disadvantage in helping you (especially on this one) given there is a bias here. But keep it up - I think you're having an impact. Go for the news conference if you can and the other people suggested to you in PMs. Link with the others (think you know what I mean( for impact - you will really make the day if you do as privately suggested via the "other".

Edited February 16, 2008 by thaigene2

[SweetPat]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2008/02/15/delpinto

- CBC News

Calgarian's death needs independent probe, says Thai commission

Last Updated: Friday, February 15, 2008 | 9:46 AM MT

I have just come back to Bangkok from Krabi and Phi Phi and the rest. But my boyfriend and I were in Pai on the night/morning Leo del Pinto was killed. Myself and my boyfriend and a Dutch couple saw what happened or a a lot of it after the first shot. We left Pai the same morning. We have missed all this news but someone we met last night said that if we contacted here we could pass on information which might help Leo. Someone here who has contact with the Human Rights people. We do not want to talk direct initially. Maybe what we saw has been witnessed already. But we want to help. But we are leaving Thailand on Tuesday. Can u get a message thru for us. Is this u?

[thaigene2]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2008/02/15/delpinto

- CBC News

Calgarian's death needs independent probe, says Thai commission

Last Updated: Friday, February 15, 2008 | 9:46 AM MT

I have just come back to Bangkok from Krabi and Phi Phi and the rest. But my boyfriend and I were in Pai on the night/morning Leo del Pinto was killed. Myself and my boyfriend and a Dutch couple saw what happened or a a lot of it after the first shot. We left Pai the same morning. We have missed all this news but someone we met last night said that if we contacted here we could pass on information which might help Leo. Someone here who has contact with the Human Rights people. We do not want to talk direct initially. Maybe what we saw has been witnessed already. But we want to help. But we are leaving Thailand on Tuesday. Can u get a message thru for us. Is this u?

You need to make a witness statement to the police and you need to do it fairly publicly before you leave Thailand. You could contact the NHRC and the Canadian Embassy about how to do this (but since the Canadian authorities here have been ridiculed for their lack of help to the family you should buy a little tape recorder and tape the police interview yourself). Contact your own Embassy if in any doubt and INSIST on talking to the charge d'affair for consular services.

Be aware that the police will ask you to sign the statement and they are notorious (personal experience) for routinely changing what you're saying to suite themselves. Beware. But do not be afraid to do this. You could really help.