Dowry In Rural Issan

[Globeliner]

After being a member here for 3 years, I'm too tired to present my views on this with as much zeal as I used to. But you can see my previous posts on this subject if you'd like. (Just search "dowry" and "siamesekitty")

To me, a Thai style wedding without a sinsod is like a farang-style wedding without a wedding ring. The rich and famous buy expensive rings with huge diamonds, the rest buy whatever's within their budget. It's part of the traditional ceremony and the ceremony would be kinda weird without it, but hey if you wanna have an incomplete wedding then who am I to argue?

Just see how well a Western woman would cope if you were to ask her for her hand in marriage and say "Well you know honey, I know I'm supposed to buy this ring for you and stuff, but since it's such an outdated custom and I don't see any sense in it, why don't we just get married without it? I mean, we can say our vows without a ring can't we? Besides, you'd look like a gold-digger if I were to present you with such a materialistic gift!"

Of course there are always some Thai women who would be willing to go along without a sinsod, such as there are probably some Western women who wouldn't mind not getting a ring. If your Thai girlfriend is fine with it then great, but just remember this is how she might feel.

*edit: maybe I've got "wedding ring" mixed with "engagement ring" or whatever, but you get my drift.

No where near to being the same situation!

[Globeliner]

It is also about class as well. If someone can't find the money to marry someone then may be he is trying to marry out of his class and should look else where.

Love should transcend everything.

"You can't marry my daughter if you can't pay what I want" Disgusting!

Totally agree with you on that nick.

[yorkman]

It is also about class as well. If someone can't find the money to marry someone then may be he is trying to marry out of his class and should look else where.

Love should transcend everything.

"You can't marry my daughter if you can't pay what I want" Disgusting!

Totally agree with you on that nick.

Agreed. Only greedy families will want you to do that. See up, its not too hard to distingush

[Globeliner]

They do say 'love is blind' I always wondered what the true meaning was

[yorkman]

They do say 'love is blind' I always wondered what the true meaning was

Despite the giggling emote

Have you more to add to this?, That is actually useful..........

[Guemlum]

It is also about class as well. If someone can't find the money to marry someone then may be he is trying to marry out of his class and should look else where.

Love should transcend everything.

"You can't marry my daughter if you can't pay what I want" Disgusting!

Agree there...well here's my 2 bahts worth

We recently got married and a sinsod of 99,999 baht was agreed. My wife asked her father about sinsod prior to us getting married to which he replied, he didnt want one. The above figure was chosen because of the number 9 being lucky in Thailand. It was purely for show. He never gave it back to us on the quiet either but announced it during the wedding ceremony.

We gave it back to my parents who initially put up the sinsod, and they then returned it to us to pay for our honeymoon. Her father was happy that we received it either way.

She got a 2 baht necklace which she gave to her father and I paid for the whole wedding, costing roughly about 3k GBP.

Her father and family were simply happy that she would be taken care of for the rest of her life.

Incidently, he passed away 3 weeks later, which can be read about in this thread...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=161125

Guemlum

[Iambabababor]

"If you can't even raise a dowry how do you expect to look after my daughter?"

The answer might be "the same way you have raised her". Pulled her out of school at 12/13. because gambling took most of your money. Sent her to work for 50/60bt a day initially, then happily took all she could give you when she was 18 and went to work in a bar.

If a farang is flush with money, by all means pay a huge dowry, replace the family shack with a new house, buy motorcycles and pick-ups for the brothers. Additinal pigs and cows too. Why not? If that's what you want to do then do it VOLUNTARILY. Not as a pre-conditon of marriage.

With what most farangs are able to provide for the new wife, instead of the tradition of displaying hundreds of 1000bt notes at the wedding ceremony amongst the "oohs and ahs" of the villagers why not instead display photographs of the new home the daughter will live in (probably a hundred times more luxurious that that which she was brought up in), together with the health insurance policy, life assurance policies, pension agreements......................I could go on.

Most farangs are not rich - they appear to have more money than thir Thai counterparts, but just like the Thais, most are broke come the end of the month. But unlike most Thai people we use our money to good purposes, the welfare of the family and family home being the most important. In many cases there is no spare money to meet the requirements of the Thai parents' demand for huge dowries.

The origins of dowries here in Thailand began with the upper classes, and was a way for the man to show the girls family that he could give the new wife a lifestyle at least as good as that she had previously received. Money was shown, but never kept. Now sadly the greedy Isaan families see this as a way to clear their debts- sell the daughters and keep the cash!

Some farangs receive demands for 200 or even 300K as a requirement for marriage, often to a divorced former prostitutes, with kids in tow, and well past her sell-by date. Most Thai men would not entertain her, and any that would, would receive the families thanks for taking her of their hands. No payment required.

These demands for absurd amounts of cash are, in my view, nothing short of selling ones daughter, in the same way Tesco Lotus and Big C sell their products. It has a price - if you cannot pay it you cannot have it.

Perhaps the Isaan mothers should adopt the marketing strategies of Tesco Lotus and Big C. In return for the exhorbitant amounts of cash demanded they should offer the wife's pretty young sister as part of the package. BUY 1 - GET 1 FREE

[macduff]

As i have said in my previous post i gave 200,000 bht for the traditional marriage of my thai partner. I would say the dowry is more than showmanship, but a compensation plan for the poor issan farmers girl for taking her away from her family. After all your taking away there source of income. I do agree if the family are wealthy then a dowry/compensation should be paid at the farangs discretion.I rest my case.

[NovaBlue05]

Perhaps the Isaan mothers should adopt the marketing strategies of Tesco Lotus and Big C. In return for the exhorbitant amounts of cash demanded they should offer the wife's pretty young sister as part of the package. BUY 1 - GET 1 FREE

uh-oh

[thedi]

The origins of dowries here in Thailand began with the upper classes, and was a way for the man to show the girls family that he could give the new wife a lifestyle at least as good as that she had previously received. Money was shown, but never kept.

Interesting information, which I hear for the first time.

Where did you get it?

I would be very much interested in the source of this information.

Best regards

Thedi

[Totster]

This is topic is a must read when discussing dowry.

Sin Sod - An explanation

totster

[JMS]

Cannibalism used to be a tradition in Africa, but is no longer. Female Genital mutilation is still practiced in many backward countries where the inhabitants have no moral conscience, but is far less than it used to be.

Traditions and cultures change with time. It's high time sin sot was put to rest. In essence it is just for the parents to show off to their neighbours, but sadly many Isaan mothers refuse to return it. As other contributors have said it is nothing short of buying your wife. Disgraceful and demeaning.

I agree how could someone pay a lady (or man) to marry them. How many out there refused to pay, did they still get there wife

[JMS]

It is also about class as well. If someone can't find the money to marry someone then may be he is trying to marry out of his class and should look else where.

Love should transcend everything.

"You can't marry my daughter if you can't pay what I want" Disgusting!

Totally agree with you on that nick.

Agreed. Only greedy families will want you to do that. See up, its not too hard to distingush

I agree it is disgusting but a lot of people are saying it is part of tradition. May be this is the case but when an older man or lady want to marry a much younger person then I call it buying a wife/husband

[siamesekitty]

Thank you to all the posters who understand the essence of it and have tried to explain it to others, as well as Totster for the link For those who have not read that thread, please do, especially the one about sinsod in its correct and proper context.

Maybe I should add that the views I expressed were with that context in mind. I view the sinsod rather as a role it plays in the ceremony. That is, display the sinsod on the golden plates, afterwards the groom's family takes it back or gives it to the couple. (*edit: this is for modern times)

I am not advocating, and in fact feel strongly against:

- loans that the couple will have to pay off

- a money-hungry family of the bride demanding a large amount of money be paid even if it's obvious the guy's family cannot afford it

- the bride's family refusing to let the couple get married without an amount of money actually changing hands

I'm thinking of sinsod in a wedding in the context of:

- The couple is truly in love with each other, and money is not the main driver of the relationship

- The couple consider each other equals

- The groom's family is financially secure enough to provide some amount, whether to give to the bride's family or to the newlyweds themselves.

- If the bride's family is to receive the

amount, there is probably some other gift that the bride's family is giving the couple already, which in several cases outweighs the amount of the sinsod itself even, such as land.

If the company is to be having a traditional Thai-style marriage, the sinsod should be shown. If you feel the need to do it the farang way, go for a Christian marriage in a church or something. People will understand that ceremonies are different and no show of sinsod is needed! (Better than having a incomplete "traditional" ceremony )

Upon further thought however, I've realized that maybe a lot of cases on this forum falls within the former situations rather than later, so perhaps my views on this would not apply to many here. They are probably more true for normal Thai/Thai relationships, or Thai/farang relationships in which the partners are considered equal, socially and financially. In such cases it is completely understood by everyone that the whole thing's just for show, no money need exchange hands unless it is into the couple's hands themselves.

If you are in an imbalanced relationship based upon monetary compensation, and there is clearly a demand, an ultimatum perhaps, for a payment before marriage, my advice here will be irrelevant and I advise you ignore it. If that is the case, I wish you luck.

Edited January 10, 2008 by siamesekitty

[Iambabababor]

The origins of dowries here in Thailand began with the upper classes, and was a way for the man to show the girls family that he could give the new wife a lifestyle at least as good as that she had previously received. Money was shown, but never kept.

Interesting information, which I hear for the first time.

Where did you get it?

I would be very much interested in the source of this information.

Best regards

Thedi

Read it on Stickman a year or so ago. You hould manage to track it down.

[Mikenmod]

This has been a great string for me. Thanks for all the imput. But I already agreed with the family and my wife about the dowry and bhat, and the date is soon upon us. My first reaction when I learned this from my girl friend was " walk away fast. hold on to your wallet." But learning Thai tradition made me see the Thai point of view. The family are farmers with a modest house and some land. They paid for my gf to go to Ubon Ratchithani U and get a degree. She's paying back their sacrifices with her salary going to help her family. So if it's "buying" a wife, it's a bargain. I pay about 10-12K USD for a sweet and pretty woman, educated, has an ambition to better herself with education, and hopefully (??!!??!!) she'll love me, let me love her. I get a family in Thailand, and a place to build a modest house to spend the winters.

OK, I'm 50 something, she's 30, my experience in Thailand is not extensive. We want to live in both places. But like I said, she wants to earn a Masters degree, so we'd have to live in the US or the EU for some years.(I'm an Irish citizen).

For you, my new friends who want to tell me about the sad stories of Farangs having their hearts broken and wallets emptied, thank you: I hear you. But I think and hope(?!?!) that I found a good Thai lady. I promise to report in next year for an update, (if I can still afford a computer. 5555)

[Prakanong]

To me, a Thai style wedding without a sinsod is like a farang-style wedding without a wedding ring.

I fully respect your point of view.

Sinsot is a Thai custom, practiced traditionally between Thais. It is only in recent years that there have been large numbers of thai/farang marriages. Sinsot is not a farang custom, so at best the Thais should meet us halfway. But since a farang usually can offer far more to the Thai wife than a Thai man ever can ( a decent home from day 1 as a starter), this should cancel out the required dowry. The girls family should be delighted that their daughter has scored a big lift-up in her life. That must give them a huge amount of "face"

Every Thai/Thai wedding in my locality in recent years has necessitated a massive loan being needed to pay the dowry, (with monthly interest of between 5% and 20%... Yes 20% a month!) which is a millstone around the newlyweds necks for many years. What chance do they have?

As I have previously -time to bin this tradition, and get real.

Would we give the 3 month salary engagement ring which is now traditional in the west (I am certain it used to be 1 month but De Beer's marketing campaign has changed since the 80's)?

Calculating this I reckon my sin sod would be a fraction of this

I could buy another decent watch with the difference - the IWC Da Vinci would be my engagement "Ring"

Edited January 10, 2008 by Prakanong

[Iambabababor]

Would we give the 3 month salary engagement ring which is now traditional in the west (I am certain it used to be 1 month but De Beer's marketing campaign has changed since the 80's)?

Calculating this I reckon my sin sod would be a fraction of this

The engagement ring is given to the wife -to - be, not the greedy family! It's value depends on your earnings/savings. Sinsod is an arbitrary amount decided upon by the Thai family (doubled or trebled in amount for a farang), invariably kept by the family to pay off debts and probably increase their gambling habits, despite them often knowing that the husband cannot afford it, and necessitating a poor quality of life for the newly weds for the forseeble future. Shame on most of them.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Iambabababor

[siamesekitty]

edit to previous post: couple, not company. Been typing a cover letter and "company" got stuck in my head.

[Prakanong]

Would we give the 3 month salary engagement ring which is now traditional in the west (I am certain it used to be 1 month but De Beer's marketing campaign has changed since the 80's)?

Calculating this I reckon my sin sod would be a fraction of this

The engagement ring is given to the wife -to - be, not the greedy family! It's value depends on your earnings/savings. Sinsod is an arbitrary amount decided upon by the Thai family (doubled or trebled in amount for a farang), invariably kept by the family to pay off debts and probably increase their gambling habits, despite them often knowing that the husband cannot afford it, and necessitating a poor quality of life for the newly weds for the forseeble future. Shame on most of them.

A good point about not being able to afford it - I thought it should be what the guy can afford (together with the worth of the girl)

My friend and colleague got married in 2006 and she now jokes she should have asked for more. Her family are quite wealthy with businesses in Thailand and the west where she grew up and went to Uni before returning to Thailand.

She would have been quite a catch but the sin sod was quite low as obviously her family are wealtheir and they do not need it. I think they were just going to do the amphur and have a small famly meal but tradition pushed through to have the modern Bangkokite 5 Star Hotel wedding and a nominal sin sod was put on dispplay for tradition sake too.

[geordie]

I married my wife 6 years ago, she had been married to Thia man before this, and had 1 daughter. I was never asked to pay a Dowry when i married her, my understanding on this is that the Dowry is paid on the first marraige. So it should never be asked for again no matter how many times the daughter marries.

[yorkman]

I married my wife 6 years ago, she had been married to Thia man before this, and had 1 daughter. I was never asked to pay a Dowry when i married her, my understanding on this is that the Dowry is paid on the first marraige. So it should never be asked for again no matter how many times the daughter marries.

Correct. No matter how many times the boys with a BG and a kid in tow will argue you are wrong

[andrewn]

This has been a great string for me. Thanks for all the imput. But I already agreed with the family and my wife about the dowry and bhat, and the date is soon upon us. My first reaction when I learned this from my girl friend was " walk away fast. hold on to your wallet." But learning Thai tradition made me see the Thai point of view. The family are farmers with a modest house and some land. They paid for my gf to go to Ubon Ratchithani U and get a degree. She's paying back their sacrifices with her salary going to help her family. So if it's "buying" a wife, it's a bargain. I pay about 10-12K USD for a sweet and pretty woman, educated, has an ambition to better herself with education, and hopefully (??!!??!!) she'll love me, let me love her. I get a family in Thailand, and a place to build a modest house to spend the winters.

OK, I'm 50 something, she's 30, my experience in Thailand is not extensive. We want to live in both places. But like I said, she wants to earn a Masters degree, so we'd have to live in the US or the EU for some years.(I'm an Irish citizen).

For you, my new friends who want to tell me about the sad stories of Farangs having their hearts broken and wallets emptied, thank you: I hear you. But I think and hope(?!?!) that I found a good Thai lady. I promise to report in next year for an update, (if I can still afford a computer. 5555)

Good luck to you Mike. In your shoes, I would do exactly as you are doing, out of respect for the traditions of the culture you are marrying into. The sum of money is not as you say outrageous for you, and for what you are "receiving" in return - though I really do NOT consider it this way as so many have posted - i.e. "buying someone's daughter" - that to me is the view of someone who does not want to appreciate that Thai culture is signifcantly different from everything instilled into them during their farang upbringing. Ask a Thai what they think about westerners shipping off their elderly parents to an old people's home - another point where farang and Thai culture differ quite considerably!

I hope the ceremony, and your future together are full of happiness for both of you, and for your families.

[Prakanong]

"I really do NOT consider it this way as so many have posted - i.e. "buying someone's daughter" - that to me is the view of someone who does not want to appreciate that Thai culture is signifcantly different from everything instilled into them during their farang upbringing. Ask a Thai what they think about westerners shipping off their elderly parents to an old people's home - another point where farang and Thai culture differ quite considerably"

I agree with you it is not buying someones daughter if you buy into the Thai cultural tradition and if yoyu ant to pay the sin sod its your choice.

Yes it is hard for those with a different socio-cultural background to understand BUT why do we have to follow their culture - should they not respect ours too of not paying a sin sod if we so beleive - can our cultural traditions and beleifs on this not be as strong - this cutural game goes both ways.

Its not just Thai's who find the old peoples home alien there are lots more Asians for whom filial piety is as important or even more so. I know more Singaporeans who give 10% or 20% of their salary to their parents both before and after marriage than I do Thai's - its probably about equal the ones I know who are total breadwinners though for their parents household putting the majority of their money at their disposeable.

I am actually attending a lecture on soci-cultural issues in business tonight whicj will concentrate mostly on Asian values - I may have different viewpoint afterwards but I can see big differences in the course i am on between the euro's, ethnic Chinese, Malays and Indians - cultural diversity is great and we all have values that are credible and worthwhile..

[NovaBlue05]

"................... I would do exactly as you are doing, out of respect for the traditions of the culture you are marrying into. The sum of money is not as you say outrageous for you, and for what you are "receiving" in return -...."

.

On the other hand, there are some who seem to view it as an affront to their competitive ego and speak of avoiding dowry much like they would brag about saving a few bucks buying a car.....

I suppose one could take that approach and conclude that they will save many times what they pay in dowry to be married to a low maintenance Thai girl when compared to the high maintenance farang alternative.

To each their own

Edited January 11, 2008 by NovaBlue05

[yorkman]

Yes it is hard for those with a different socio-cultural background to understand BUT why do we have to follow their culture - should they not respect ours too of not paying a sin sod if we so beleive - can our cultural traditions and beleifs on this not be as strong - this cutural game goes both ways.

I think you may have missed the middle line on this one.

Of course you should respect the local culture, but really all that is left of the culture in most places is the "showing" of sin sot. That of course has the function of showing what friends/villagers that their daughter is wanted/deserves respect, or whichever way you want to put it. It would be a private matter otherwise eh?

If it is not agreed that that is what you will do, then I would start to worry about the family. Whichever way you look at it their daughter will materially benefit, and if that is not their first concern... well.

@NovaBlue05 ... its not about saving a few bucks as you put it or comparing with buying a car. One way or another you will end up with the wedding bill, plus your intended will want her gold stuff Enough

If you don't believe this compromise works, make it a showstopper. It will work

p.s. and for those that worry that you might become the family walking ATM (I don't have that problem) then you have set a precedent from the start perhaps

[JRinger]

The origins of dowries here in Thailand began with the upper classes, and was a way for the man to show the girls family that he could give the new wife a lifestyle at least as good as that she had previously received. Money was shown, but never kept.

Interesting information, which I hear for the first time.

Where did you get it?

I would be very much interested in the source of this information.

Best regards

Thedi

Read it on Stickman a year or so ago. You hould manage to track it down.

Great source, 'Stickman' Do you actually believe he's an authority on Thai culture?

Iambabababor, After reading through your posts it appears you have a hugh chip on your shoulder and are a bit cynical in your quest to demeaner and demolish Thai traditions (living up to your forum name).

I've been to countless weddings over the past twenty years, mostly Thai to Thai and I've never seen the absence of sid sod, never. I've also never seen it given back to the couple except one time to help the couple get set up in business.

On another note, when a couple here does get separated or divorced the wife doesn't take 'everything' like most do in the west.

Edited January 12, 2008 by JRinger

[Prakanong]

The origins of dowries here in Thailand began with the upper classes, and was a way for the man to show the girls family that he could give the new wife a lifestyle at least as good as that she had previously received. Money was shown, but never kept.

Interesting information, which I hear for the first time.

Where did you get it?

I would be very much interested in the source of this information.

Best regards

Thedi

Read it on Stickman a year or so ago. You hould manage to track it down.

Great source, 'Stickman' Do you actually believe he's an authority on Thai culture?

Iambabababor, After reading through your posts it appears you have a hugh chip on your shoulder and are a bit cynical in your quest to demeaner and demolish Thai traditions (living up to your forum name).

I've been to countless weddings over the past twenty years, mostly Thai to Thai and I've never seen the absence of sid sod, never. I've also never seen it given back to the couple except one time to help the couple get set up in business.

On another note, when a couple here does get separated or divorced the wife doesn't take 'everything' like most do in the west.

Great source, 'Stickman'

Is the "Sin sod" a tradional Thai cultural practice or did it arrive with the Chinese immigrants?

I have tried google scholar for some articles and research but not coming up with much.

[Gary A]

Whether the anti sin sot crowd wants to believe it or not, sin sot is alive and well in Issan. I don't go to weddings but my wife normally puts in an appearance. EVERY Thai wedding my wife has gone to involved sin sot with the exception of one farang. His bride was fifty years old and she has one adult child. The farang was the talk of the town because he refused to pay. They did have a large wedding and even my wife remarked that his wife lost face because of his refusal to pay. Had it been a small wedding, nothing would have been said but a big wedding demands a dowry. We had a small private wedding.

I paid no sin sot but was willing to pay. I left it up to my wife. My wife is a VERY strong willed woman. I sometimes call her hua kang (hard head). Her family can take it or leave it. She refuses to be pressured by any family member. I once gave her uncle 100 baht to get him to leave (village drunk). I caught all sorts of flack from my wife. She told me that he will now come every day looking for a hand out. Sure enough he was back the next day wanting more money. I stayed out of it that time. She told him that if he wanted money he would have to earn it. She wanted some sprouted coconuts to plant and sent him out looking. He came back several hours later with two of them. She gave him 20 baht. He was quite angry and upset. He told her that she was cheap. She told him that she could buy sprouted coconuts at the market for 10 baht each and asked him why she should pay him more. He has not been back and that was 3 years ago.

[Neeranam]

If the woman has already been married, you don't need to pay sin sot, especially if she has kids.

If she insists, tell her where to go, she's a scammer.