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Chiang Mai Province Bans Burning Of Waste


mobs00

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QUOTE (Greenside @ 2008-01-17 12:42:52) post_snapback.gifI bet almost no one will get to hear of this on street level, let alone take any notice without local action of the kind cmsally and her neighbours have taken.

If the impact of the new regulation is low, perhaps concerned TV members should photograph as many violations as possible in one week (or on one day) and submit them all to the Chiang Mai Mail so they could run a whole page of Firestarters instead of the horoscopes they seem to use as filler these days. :D

I hereby volunteer to co-ordinate this effort.

QUOTE (anonymouse @ 2008-01-17 12:26:30) post_snapback.gif

Greensides idea about submitting photos to the Chiang Mai Mail would be a good idea if anyone actually read it :D

Oops! Maybe if they removed all those irritating pictures of people at the opening bashes of businesses that don't make it past the first week of operation and put even more pictures of people starting fires..... Would that help? :o

Actually, I bet that it would be pretty easy to get a pic of Somchai Snr standing proudly by his competely uneccessary billowing bonfire of leaves and PET bottles. I'll work on it.

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Maybe we should a quick poll as to how many households recycle?

In our household paper, cardboard, cans, plastics, some glass bottles (but there are some they don't want), anything metal and a few things more that I can't think offhand all get recycled. Leftover rice and food goes to housekeepers pork production factory.

There is a pick up that buys the stuff and comes about every 2 weeks. I believe this particular one operates anywhere in town or on way to Hangdong.

Then of course we burn all the rest, to save us paying the few coins it costs for the monthly garbage fee! :o:D

Only joking!

NB Is the municipal garbage still going to landfill in Hot area or am I way out of date?

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From this week's Chiang Mai Mail

Call for campaign against air pollution in Chiang Mai

The Editor,

At a meeting of some fifty concerned Chiang Mai residents, both Thai and international, on 4th January, it was made abundantly clear by many speakers, (again both Thai and international), how lacking is the concern shown by our disseminators of local information, e.g. our newspapers, in reporting the seriousness of air quality in this polluted city... a city that but a handful of years ago gloried in the pride of being Thailand’s least polluted city.

And why the current pollution? Surely, apart from deforestation, the main cause is the still persistent burning of rubbish throughout the province, even within the Doi Suthep National Park, despite the law which now forbids it.

Passing laws and feeling smug that obligation is fulfilled does not attack the problem. Drive into the country any day of the week and simply count the columns of smoke! You will be astounded at how flagrantly laws enacted to preserve our people’s health can be so irresponsibly ignored. Also count the number of police driving along those same roads and totally ignoring the same columns of smoke. There you have the reason for laws being broken with impunity.

If our newspapers are to earn the respect of Chiang Mai’s citizens, surely they should be the voice of protest and accept accountability by campaigning for the benefit of the populace, at least until their editors are satisfied, not only that something is being done, but that, due to their persistence, we again have a chance to enjoy clean air.

If Chiang Mai Mail is to deserve credibility as a voice for the people, please put your best reporter on to this problem and serialise weekly reports regarding what action is either ensuing or not ensuing!

Ric Richardson

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Some time back I sat down with my Thai partner and started to produce a leaflet (in Thai) giving a simple list of reasons why burning was bad. The plan was to make it A6 size so that four copies could be made off a single A4 sheet (i.e. cut the sheet into four smaller pieces). Now photocopying is cheap in this country so you could easily run off a few hundred copies without it costing the earth. For whatever reason I never finished this little project but if I could dig it out again and get it done and then post it on here then maybe folk who care enough could print it off and make as many copies as their pockets would permit. Then all you gotta do is hand it out politely to as many folk as possible in your area, in particular to those characters who you actually catch in the act of burning.

Does this seem like a good idea? Anyone foresee any major problems with it? If others give it the thumbs up then I'll go ahead and do it.

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Some time back I sat down with my Thai partner and started to produce a leaflet (in Thai) giving a simple list of reasons why burning was bad. The plan was to make it A6 size so that four copies could be made off a single A4 sheet (i.e. cut the sheet into four smaller pieces). Now photocopying is cheap in this country so you could easily run off a few hundred copies without it costing the earth. For whatever reason I never finished this little project but if I could dig it out again and get it done and then post it on here then maybe folk who care enough could print it off and make as many copies as their pockets would permit. Then all you gotta do is hand it out politely to as many folk as possible in your area, in particular to those characters who you actually catch in the act of burning.

Does this seem like a good idea? Anyone foresee any major problems with it? If others give it the thumbs up then I'll go ahead and do it.

I think the major hurdle is offering people an alternative way to get rid of their waste that does not cost them anything. This is why I think it is important to not only get the word out as you suggest, but also to make a public outcry against this so loud that the government has no choice but to act. The governement needs to offer people another way to dispose of refuse. I think a good way to make our voices heard would be as another poster suggested, to get the local newspapers to print weekly articles about the burning and damage it is causing. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, so to speak.

Are there any other ways members could think of to get the word out?

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I think if you could come up with a good design sun banner (ie like the ones that shops hang in front to block out afternoon sun) with a no burning message, maybe even a cartoon if expense permitted.and gave to people to hang in prominent places where many people pass, it could be quite a good idea.

I don't know what the cost would be though. Maybe some companies would be willing to sponsor if their name appeared on part of it.

Sunshades are environmentally friendly; no one will trash it, if it can be used and will last one dry season at least. An added bonus is it might give you some shade and cut your elec. bill.

If a location such as for example the walking street, potentially thousands of people passing and at least some will read.

Make a change from seeing Pepsi or Dtac.

I have been thinking of doing a prototype but need some ideas of places that can make it up for me as well as designing.

If sponsors were forthcoming, you could give to schools , restaurants, markets, no end of places.

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I think the major hurdle is offering people an alternative way to get rid of their waste that does not cost them anything. This is why I think it is important to not only get the word out as you suggest, but also to make a public outcry against this so loud that the government has no choice but to act. The governement needs to offer people another way to dispose of refuse.

It might ease matters a bit if someone explains to the government that they don't have to pay all costs of garbage collection themselves. Actually, they have a pretty good example in how things have worked for years in downtown Chiang Mai. All waste (whatever can be contained in garbage bags and not grabbed by nighttime scavengers) are collected each morning including Sunday. For that service each house (apartment?) is charged a monthly fee which is collected regardless of whether or not they use the service. In this street the fee is 10 Baht a month.

After almost 4 years in this city I have yet to see any rubbish burning (closer than the slopes of Doi Suthep, but I'm one of the lucky city boys who seldom have to go further out than Super Highway and thus don't have to expose my health to the apparently (according to numerous posts on this board) highly polluted suburban areas).

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Some time back I sat down with my Thai partner and started to produce a leaflet (in Thai) giving a simple list of reasons why burning was bad. The plan was to make it A6 size so that four copies could be made off a single A4 sheet (i.e. cut the sheet into four smaller pieces). Now photocopying is cheap in this country so you could easily run off a few hundred copies without it costing the earth. For whatever reason I never finished this little project but if I could dig it out again and get it done and then post it on here then maybe folk who care enough could print it off and make as many copies as their pockets would permit. Then all you gotta do is hand it out politely to as many folk as possible in your area, in particular to those characters who you actually catch in the act of burning.

Does this seem like a good idea? Anyone foresee any major problems with it? If others give it the thumbs up then I'll go ahead and do it.

I think the major hurdle is offering people an alternative way to get rid of their waste that does not cost them anything. This is why I think it is important to not only get the word out as you suggest, but also to make a public outcry against this so loud that the government has no choice but to act. The governement needs to offer people another way to dispose of refuse. I think a good way to make our voices heard would be as another poster suggested, to get the local newspapers to print weekly articles about the burning and damage it is causing. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, so to speak.

Are there any other ways members could think of to get the word out?

It's a good idea but your leaflet would need to be 20% focused on why burning is bad and 80% on the benefits of alternative methods. They have to see a positive result from changing their habits - free fertilizer, lower doctor's bills, what have you. If we can find the right message, I'd be pleased to help to get this done.

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Some time back I sat down with my Thai partner and started to produce a leaflet (in Thai) giving a simple list of reasons why burning was bad. The plan was to make it A6 size so that four copies could be made off a single A4 sheet (i.e. cut the sheet into four smaller pieces). Now photocopying is cheap in this country so you could easily run off a few hundred copies without it costing the earth. For whatever reason I never finished this little project but if I could dig it out again and get it done and then post it on here then maybe folk who care enough could print it off and make as many copies as their pockets would permit. Then all you gotta do is hand it out politely to as many folk as possible in your area, in particular to those characters who you actually catch in the act of burning.

Does this seem like a good idea? Anyone foresee any major problems with it? If others give it the thumbs up then I'll go ahead and do it.

I think the major hurdle is offering people an alternative way to get rid of their waste that does not cost them anything. This is why I think it is important to not only get the word out as you suggest, but also to make a public outcry against this so loud that the government has no choice but to act. The governement needs to offer people another way to dispose of refuse. I think a good way to make our voices heard would be as another poster suggested, to get the local newspapers to print weekly articles about the burning and damage it is causing. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, so to speak.

Are there any other ways members could think of to get the word out?

It's a good idea but your leaflet would need to be 20% focused on why burning is bad and 80% on the benefits of alternative methods. They have to see a positive result from changing their habits - free fertilizer, lower doctor's bills, what have you. If we can find the right message, I'd be pleased to help to get this done.

Be a squeaky wheel? Maybe that is the answer. It is not a Thai approach at all to "talk too much," but it would be effective to make the wheel squeak. So, what telephone numbers are there to call when you see a fire? What internet addresses to send an email? And so on. The mayor's telephone number and email should be on the list., So should the governor's! Who out there has the telephone numbers? Who out there has the email addresses? A polite frequent mention of problems will get attention if they are about genuine concerns. Don't get wordy,don't send essays, but definitely touch base.

THIS ISSUE CONCERNS EVERYONE, not just old geezers on retirement visas!

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Some time back I sat down with my Thai partner and started to produce a leaflet (in Thai) giving a simple list of reasons why burning was bad. The plan was to make it A6 size so that four copies could be made off a single A4 sheet (i.e. cut the sheet into four smaller pieces). Now photocopying is cheap in this country so you could easily run off a few hundred copies without it costing the earth. For whatever reason I never finished this little project but if I could dig it out again and get it done and then post it on here then maybe folk who care enough could print it off and make as many copies as their pockets would permit. Then all you gotta do is hand it out politely to as many folk as possible in your area, in particular to those characters who you actually catch in the act of burning.

Does this seem like a good idea? Anyone foresee any major problems with it? If others give it the thumbs up then I'll go ahead and do it.

I think the major hurdle is offering people an alternative way to get rid of their waste that does not cost them anything. This is why I think it is important to not only get the word out as you suggest, but also to make a public outcry against this so loud that the government has no choice but to act. The governement needs to offer people another way to dispose of refuse. I think a good way to make our voices heard would be as another poster suggested, to get the local newspapers to print weekly articles about the burning and damage it is causing. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, so to speak.

Are there any other ways members could think of to get the word out?

It's a good idea but your leaflet would need to be 20% focused on why burning is bad and 80% on the benefits of alternative methods. They have to see a positive result from changing their habits - free fertilizer, lower doctor's bills, what have you. If we can find the right message, I'd be pleased to help to get this done.

Be a squeaky wheel? Maybe that is the answer. It is not a Thai approach at all to "talk too much," but it would be effective to make the wheel squeak. So, what telephone numbers are there to call when you see a fire? What internet addresses to send an email? And so on. The mayor's telephone number and email should be on the list., So should the governor's! Who out there has the telephone numbers? Who out there has the email addresses? A polite frequent mention of problems will get attention if they are about genuine concerns. Don't get wordy,don't send essays, but definitely touch base.

THIS ISSUE CONCERNS EVERYONE, not just old geezers on retirement visas!

If you're going to go down that route, rather than a more positive one, may I suggest you have a native Thai speaker place the calls? That way the problem can be focused on inappropriate burning, rather than bothersome foreigners.

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When I was living in my wifes village for a couple of years off and on, there was no rubbish collection service and that is still the case. Recycling is popular and I think there is in most villages at least one household that deals in scrap. In this village the recycling lady would come round once a week or so and collect the stuff and pay a nominal fee for it. food that isn't eaten is given to the dogs usually - chillis and all :o The problem is the rest of the stuff, plastic bags etc that can't be got rid of, so now you have a village of a hundred or so households burning all this toxic material every few days. The only way this could be stopped is for the government to provide a rubbish collection service in the villages.

I'd also feel sure that most of the people in the village would not be inclined to pay for this service.

Edited by anonymouse
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My girlfriend just came up with the idea to educate the children. Does anyone know if this is being done? I was thinking of visual aids and using that for presentations in the elementary schools. Some of the Thai cartoon like characters showing why it is harmful to burn waste and what can be done with it instead. Has anyone seen this before? She is in her last year at Rajabaht University and may be able to get some of the students there involved with organizing and distributing the message; kind of like the community service type things you see them doing everywhere.

On another note, does anyone have any statistics on the amount of exhaust fumes a car that is not tuned properly releases? Also, any info on the amount of money an individual driver could save if they to have their car tuned up? I think this may be another good way to reduce the toxins in the air by showing people how much money they cold save by getting their car to run properly. This could also be implemented in the same way as above; by having older students teach the younger students.

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Also, any info on the amount of money an individual driver could save if they to have their car tuned up? I think this may be another good way to reduce the toxins in the air by showing people how much money they cold save by getting their car to run properly.

I don't want to be nasty, but few Thai people could summon up this much logic for more than about ten minutes. :o

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Also, any info on the amount of money an individual driver could save if they to have their car tuned up? I think this may be another good way to reduce the toxins in the air by showing people how much money they cold save by getting their car to run properly.

I don't want to be nasty, but few Thai people could summon up this much logic for more than about ten minutes. :o

I don't want to be nasty, but do you have a better idea? Or is it better to just ignore the problem until it goes away again for a short time in the rainy season?

It affects all of us and we all complain about it, but so far little has been done.

UG, you of all people should be concerned by the situation. Is it just coincidence that tourists are starting to shy away from Chiang Mai? Do you think the news reports on how bad the air quality is here has no bearing on people’s choices on where to take their holiday? I also have a business that heavily relies on tourism and I for one would like to address the problem rather than ignore it.

Or maybe it is good for your business. I guess more people will stay home, turn on the A/C and read a book.

Edited by mobs00
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If it would work, I would be all for it. All I am saying is that Thais and Thailand would have to change a lot, before approaches such as this that work in a Western country or Singapore would work here.

TIT (This is Thailand)! :o

That's why I think if people could be shown how much money they could save by fixing their vehicle maybe some would do it and some would later follow. If it costs 2000 baht per year to tune up a car and they could save 10000 baht a year in petrol I think some would do it. The key would be to educate people and show them how to do it. Show them where there are shops that can fix their car. Maybe even a newspaper advert that explains a bit of the benefits and lists a few auto shops that can do the work. These shops could also be approached for a bit of advertising money to help cover the cost of placing an ad in a local paper.

Edited by mobs00
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Are Thais taught, in school or in life, to connect dots that aren't obvious? I mean, dots such as the emissions of invisible pathogens from the Thailpipes of their cars, to bad health, to getting a tuneup? I doubt that most of them are.

Texas :o had a very successful campaign against roadside litter with their "Don't Mess With Texas!" campaign, but that's a whole 'nother world where the ad campaigns had songs by Willie Nelson and Freddie Fender.

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Are Thais taught, in school or in life, to connect dots that aren't obvious? I mean, dots such as the emissions of invisible pathogens from the Thailpipes of their cars, to bad health, to getting a tuneup? I doubt that most of them are.

Texas :o had a very successful campaign against roadside litter with their "Don't Mess With Texas!" campaign, but that's a whole 'nother world where the ad campaigns had songs by Willie Nelson and Freddie Fender.

Maybe we could incorporate their national pride in this. That usually gets Thais to come together and act.

Something like "Thailand used to have the cleanest air in the world and was the most beautiful country on earth, all Thai people should come together to make it so again." :D

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If it would work, I would be all for it. All I am saying is that Thais and Thailand would have to change a lot, before approaches such as this that work in a Western country or Singapore would work here.

TIT (This is Thailand)! :o

Its going to get worse before it gets better.

The Environmental Kuznets Curve

At the low levels of per capita income found in pre-industrial and agrarian economies, where

most economic activity is subsistence farming, one might expect rather pristine

environmental conditions, relatively unaffected by economic activities—at least

for those pollutants associated with industrial activity. This

suggests that as development and industrialization progress,

environmental damage increases due to greater use of natural resources, more

emission of pollutants, the operation of less efficient and relatively dirty

technologies, the high priority given to increases in material output, and disregard

for—or ignorance of—the environmental consequences of growth. However, as

economic growth continues and life expectancies increase, cleaner water,

improved air quality, and a generally cleaner habitat become more valuable as

people make choices at the margin about how to spend their incomes. Much later,

in the post-industrial stage, cleaner technologies and a shift to information and

service-based activities combine with a growing ability and willingness to

enhance environmental quality.

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...... The key would be to educate people and show them how to do it.

They tried that with driver education, and that failed miserably as the annual road fatality figures sadly show. The Thai race are pretty stuborn to accept change, even if it is a financial benefit to them. You are battling centuries of "Thai Logic". I have never had a problem with the air in Chiangmai, even though the likes of Blinky Bill place me in the "past the use by date" category, but I wish you well in your efforts.

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I am in town which may make it easier. But there used to be plenty of people burning. I think if you make it known to others you are really against it you will find there are plenty of others who will join you. For example there was one old lady who burnt all kinds of rubbish close to us. A word to her niece who is a well educated reasonable person and it stopped. Getting people to kick the habit one by one, after a couple of years makes a huge difference.

re: But there used to be plenty of people burning.

wow at least they are just burning garbage now.

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If it would work, I would be all for it. All I am saying is that Thais and Thailand would have to change a lot, before approaches such as this that work in a Western country or Singapore would work here.

TIT (This is Thailand)! :o

Its going to get worse before it gets better.

The Environmental Kuznets Curve

At the low levels of per capita income found in pre-industrial and agrarian economies, where

most economic activity is subsistence farming, one might expect rather pristine

environmental conditions, relatively unaffected by economic activities—at least

for those pollutants associated with industrial activity. This

suggests that as development and industrialization progress,

environmental damage increases due to greater use of natural resources, more

emission of pollutants, the operation of less efficient and relatively dirty

technologies, the high priority given to increases in material output, and disregard

for—or ignorance of—the environmental consequences of growth. However, as

economic growth continues and life expectancies increase, cleaner water,

improved air quality, and a generally cleaner habitat become more valuable as

people make choices at the margin about how to spend their incomes. Much later,

in the post-industrial stage, cleaner technologies and a shift to information and

service-based activities combine with a growing ability and willingness to

enhance environmental quality.

Well, maybe and maybe not. I'm not sure how you picked up this Kuznets corollary, but I'd suggest that it isn't necessarily appropriate.

Quickly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuznets_curve

In any case, considering improvements in mass communication, technology and governmental impact available since Kuznets wrote, a problem like pollution does not necessarily involve the shift he suggested is needed. Thailand might be over the hump anyway. Last, on this issue, the global perspective on pollution has changed dramatically since Kuznets.

There are also peculiarly Thai circumstances which would make change easier. For example, if he were persuaded and willing, the king could make a remarkable impact. It is curious, really, why he hasn't made more of an impact in an area clearly of significant concern to him. To do so now would build upon his "green" legacy.

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Some time back I sat down with my Thai partner and started to produce a leaflet (in Thai) giving a simple list of reasons why burning was bad. The plan was to make it A6 size so that four copies could be made off a single A4 sheet (i.e. cut the sheet into four smaller pieces). Now photocopying is cheap in this country so you could easily run off a few hundred copies without it costing the earth. For whatever reason I never finished this little project but if I could dig it out again and get it done and then post it on here then maybe folk who care enough could print it off and make as many copies as their pockets would permit. Then all you gotta do is hand it out politely to as many folk as possible in your area, in particular to those characters who you actually catch in the act of burning.

Does this seem like a good idea? Anyone foresee any major problems with it? If others give it the thumbs up then I'll go ahead and do it.

Bananaman - I'd be very interested in a copy of this leaflet, completed, unfinished, whatever form you are happy to share it in.

Apologies for bumping another pollution thread but I've been looking for this post for a while and finally remembered to search for it today.

Thanks in advance,

JxP

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Just to bring the original post back in focus, I just came back from a trip to the Doi Tung/Masae area and it's clear that whatever the CM authorities may or may not do if the move is not copied in other Changwats, let alone Laos and Myanmar it won't make a noticeable difference to the air down here. This was a common sight:

247745398-M.jpg

Even early in the morning the visibility was poor. :o

Edited by Greenside
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I am in town which may make it easier. But there used to be plenty of people burning. I think if you make it known to others you are really against it you will find there are plenty of others who will join you. For example there was one old lady who burnt all kinds of rubbish close to us. A word to her niece who is a well educated reasonable person and it stopped. Getting people to kick the habit one by one, after a couple of years makes a huge difference.

Education - it will work as cmsally has suggested. Fairly easy method and not very confrontational if done sensibly. However it is a long term approach - it took nearly year for me to get the gardener to bag the plastic rubbish for disposal rather than burn it as has happened since plastic was invented.

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I agree, education is the key.

We (farang) can rant and rave all we want, pull our hair out, point accusingly at lung cancer statistics, et al.

The reality is, it wasn't until the 1950's or 1960's in the quote unquote modern developed nations that laws were passed and enforced to improve air quality, and that (slowly) citizens began to abide by.

I remember my dad burning raked-up piles of leaves in the backyard of our Palo Alto, California home in the mid 1950's.

One day he had the not so brilliant idea of adding gasoline to a barely burning pile of wet leaves....BOOM! Leaves scattered everywhere, eyebrows singed, etc.

Guess who had to re-rake up the scattered pile? :D

Nowadays if you were to try a stunt like that, the enviro police would show up in hazmat suits, and march the offenders off to Federal Prison... :o

The younger Thai people are aware of, and concerned about their environment, IMHO.

It's just a matter of time before the older ones, who burn indiscriminately get the message.... :D

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I bet almost no one will get to hear of this on street level, let alone take any notice without local action of the kind cmsally and her neighbours have taken.

If the impact of the new regulation is low, perhaps concerned TV members should photograph as many violations as possible in one week (or on one day) and submit them all to the Chiang Mai Mail so they could run a whole page of Firestarters instead of the horoscopes they seem to use as filler these days. :o

I hereby volunteer to co-ordinate this effort.

Check the CM Mail this week -- there will be an article entitled "A "Burning" question, (written by a correspondent, not a translated and edited report from Thai authorities) with two pics ----black and white unfortunately, but nothing's perfect--- if anyone wants to send pics as suggested, I'll do my best -- if they can send through this forum, I'm not giving out my email address on here, guys!

Petra

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I agree, education is the key.

We (farang) can rant and rave all we want, pull our hair out, point accusingly at lung cancer statistics, et al.

The reality is, it wasn't until the 1950's or 1960's in the quote unquote modern developed nations that laws were passed and enforced to improve air quality, and that (slowly) citizens began to abide by.

I remember my dad burning raked-up piles of leaves in the backyard of our Palo Alto, California home in the mid 1950's.

One day he had the not so brilliant idea of adding gasoline to a barely burning pile of wet leaves....BOOM! Leaves scattered everywhere, eyebrows singed, etc.

Guess who had to re-rake up the scattered pile? :D

Nowadays if you were to try a stunt like that, the enviro police would show up in hazmat suits, and march the offenders off to Federal Prison... :o

The younger Thai people are aware of, and concerned about their environment, IMHO.

It's just a matter of time before the older ones, who burn indiscriminately get the message.... :D

The real beginning of the environmental movement in the USA began with Lady Bird Johnson(First Lady to President Johnson) in the 60's deciding to make highway's more attractive and she took the cause to heart and many billboards were put up and she spoke publicly about the importance of a clean environment. From there it mushroomed out during the 60's and the EPA was established under the Nixon administration in the early 70's. People just ran with it from there.

To be fair there were others like Teddy Roosevelt establishing the first national park and John Muir but things really started rolling with Lady Bird Johnson.

All it would take in Thailand is for the King or other beloved Royal to really promote it and the Thai's would make it priority one.

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