Prostitution - A Victim-less Industry?

[Pudgimelon]

Otherwise, am I to take it that the "kept" boys and girls are not prostitutes?  Obviously well-off free-lancers in their prime in the discos?  What about mia nois?  I think the spectrum has smoother gradations of grey than the easy-to-knock-down "obviously bad" side you're focussing on.

Well, if you say the "obviously bad" side is "easy-to-knock-down" then you would at least agree with me that THAT SECTOR of the sex industry is not victimless, right??

You seem to be saying that since you can point to a few people who aren't victims, that nobody is a victim.

Why are you so concerned with this "spectrum with smooth gradations of grey"? What difference does it make if there are some "good-ish" situations?? How does that change the overwhelming prevelance of abuse within this industry??

If it eases your conscience to believe that the "kept boys" you associate with are "happy hookers", then that's your perogative. But that doesn't constitute scientific evidence that prostitution is a legitimate and POSITIVE career choice for a young man or woman.

As I said before, your PERSONAL experience (or knowledge of) with "well-off disco freelancers" may illustrate a particular point, but it is far from valid when discussing the industry as a whole.

Nana disco is hardly representative of the entire GLOBAL sex industry, and therefore, your encounters with seemlingly "well-off" freelancers there, doesn't refute anything I said.

I would argue that a good sector of the industry which would still be called prostitution is NOT so sordid (sex slaves, people forced by poverty into it, etc., etc.).

There are actual studies that break down those sectors for you. Perhaps you should look them up for yourself and see just how SMALL those "non-sordid" sectors are.

Also, I recommend you take a closer look at the people in those so-called "good sectors". Check the rates of drug-abuse, alcoholism, suicide, spousal abuse, venereal disease, "employer abuse", and other risk factors. Then compare those risk factors to the population as a whole. I think you'll find the same thing that every other scientific study on this topic has found: ANY prostitute is at higher risk than other workers for a variety of risk factors.

Incidentally, did you ever figure out if you're married or not?  And why did you edit the posts where you said you were?

My personal situation is not a topic in this thread. If you want to discuss my life, start another thread, and you can hero-worship me to your heart's content. But I have no idea what posts you are talking about, nor have I ever said that I was married in any post, editted or not. You must have misread something.

You have rightly stated that the majority of sex workers around the world enjoy so little civil protection usually afforded to workers of most other industries. A sm1all snippet of information left out of the equation that completely changes the quotient is the fact that in very few places is it legal.

To make a comparison of the difference between a legal and illegal industry on a level playing field let's look at alcohol sales under Al Capone during prohibition in the USA and Alcohol sales as a legal industry. The fact that it is illegal is the single largest contributor to the abuses that CAN occur. There are places around the world where prostitution is legal. Depending on the human rights posture of the country involved these workers receive the same protections as workers in other fields. Take into consideration that in certain cultures women just don't get any respect or protection... ever.

I, like you, believe that women should be afforded the same protection as men no mater what proffession they choose.

Legalize prostitution today!!!

Unfortunately, legalization does little to improve the conditions for sex workers. There are quite a few places where prostitution is either legal or at least openly tolerated, and abuses still exist.

Children are still recruited into the industry, even in places like Las Vegas or the Netherlands. In fact, several studies have shown that the percentage of child-workers in the sex industry DOES NOT CHANGE, even when prostitution is legalized.

Additionally, legal prostitutes still suffer in poor work enviroments that are dangerous and lack any proper arbitration between worker and employer. Face it, even when legalized, the sex industry still exploits its workers.

Consider this: what is the average "life-span" of a prostitutes career? 10 years? 20 years? What kind of "career advancement" does the industry have to offer it's workers? Where is the retirement plan? Disability? Health insurance? OSHA workplace safety standards? Etc......

Again, specific antecdotal accounts of "some bargirl you used to know" don't refute the FACT that such protections and rights simply don't exist for a VAST MAJORITY of sex workers.

Heck, it's quite common for sex workers to work for their "employers" competely without PAY. They work solely on tips, and are often docked for taking time off. Can you imagine working at a job with similar employment conditions? Can you imagine asking your boss for vacation time, and then having to PAY your boss in order to take that vacation?? I can't think of another career field that asks it's workers to pay for vacation time. Can you?

And what happens to the workers who reach 30 or 40 and can no longer ply their wares? The bars and brothels they've worked for have profitted enormously off their labors, but do they offer any retirement plans? Social security? Job-retraining? Career-placement assistance?? Heck no. In fact, such concepts are so alien to the sex industry, that I bet the idea of a hooker with a 401K seems laughable to many of you.

There are an awful lot of people who profit from the sex industry, that is true. Bar owners, pimps, managers, "boyfriends", and many others all make a tremendous amount of money off the "johns" without ever having to "put out" themselves. Unlike most industries, these "management" types do not arise from the ranks of the workers. In fact, it is EXTREMELY rare for a prostitute to rise into management of the clubs and brothels (mama-sans aren't as common as you think. They exist, but MOST "talent" managers are men who DO NOT have experience as prostitutes).

Therefore there exist a glass ceiling in the sex industry that prevents the workers from ever CONTROLLING their work conditions. Again, you'd never hear about a prostitute bringing a sexual harassment claim against an employer. And why not?

Ask yourself that question. Why don't sex workers get "promoted" into management?

my first question would be why is this so important to pudgi

I used to volunteer at a homeless shelter, so I've seen the ugly side of this industry.

But why cant society provide a framework in whcih the girls control their own fate......I would love to see a prostitutes union or a revolution in the industry in which the workers controlled 100% their own industry, instead of some fat arse sitting back getting the $$ for doing nothing.

A good idea in theory, but the fact is, even in places where prostitution is legal, abuses still exist.

Simply put it's an economic decision made by those who choose the profession.

MOST prostitutes are recruited (either willingly or unwillingly) into the industry as MINORS. Got that?

So if a Bolivian coal miner takes his 12 year old son into the coal mines, can you honestly say that the boy "chooses" that profession when he turns 18?? Without a proper education and 6 years of experience digging coal and few other employment prospects out there, what kind of real "choice" is it??

Likewise, if a 16 year old girl turns her first "trick", is that a VALID choice?? Are you saying that we should allow MINORS to chose dangerous and potentially abusive careers just because they want to?? So if you had a 14 year old son, would you let him drive a Formula 1 racer simply because he wanted to? Would you let him mine for gold (and risk exposure to mercury poisoning) simply because he could make good money doing it???

And when that 16 year old girl turns 18, her "choice" to become a prostitute doesn't magically become legitimate. After 2 years of abuse and/or "experience", what REAL options does she really have??

I don't think you can compare a western european prostitute with a thai prostitute. The western european has legitimate choices of profession, but the thai is truely limited.

Actually, you can. I suggest you do some reading on this issue. There is actually quite a lot that ALL prostitutes have in common, including a history of alcoholism or drug abuse in their family, sexual abuse by a parent or older relative, and poverty. Western or Asian, these traits are shared by MANY sex workers.

What do you say about an industry that actively seeks out the victims of child abuse and then EXPLOITS that emotional trauma??

Here's a challenge:

Instead of refuting what I'm saying with antecdotes based on random personal experiences or heresay, why don't you guys try to find ONE scientific study that refutes ANYTHING that I've been saying.

I've never come across a single bit of info that suggests that prostitution has an overall POSITIVE impact on the lives of the people who chose that profession. So I challenge you guys to find a shred of real evidence to contradict what I'm saying here.

You know you can't and you know you won't because you know that it doesn't exist. But I challenge you to try. Perhaps in your search you'll come across the overwhelming volume of evidence that shows that the sex industry is abusive and exploitative.

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, if you say the "obviously bad" side is "easy-to-knock-down" then you would at least agree with me that THAT SECTOR of the sex industry is not victimless, right??

Sure seems that way, doesn't it?

You seem to be saying that since you can point to a few people who aren't victims, that nobody is a victim.

Nope, YOU seem to be saying that.

Why are you so concerned with this "spectrum with smooth gradations of grey"?  What difference does it make if there are some "good-ish" situations??  How does that change the overwhelming prevelance of abuse within this industry??

Umm, wasn't it you just over on another thread on this forum saying the other day that another poster saw things too much in black and white [somebody want to quote that up for Pudgi before he changes it like the business about him being married]? You haven't demonstrated that the abuse, which I readily concede must exist to some extent, is either overwhelming or the result of an involuntary choice of career- and you still haven't defined exactly what prostitution is, so we have no basis for talking about it anyway.

I'm concerned with black/white thinking in general because it usually fails to model reality in all its complexity, and is therefore usually both stupid and less interesting than the real world.

If it eases your conscience to believe that the "kept boys" you associate with are "happy hookers", then that's your perogative.  But that doesn't constitute scientific evidence that prostitution is a legitimate and POSITIVE career choice for a young man or woman.

It would only ease my conscience if I were the one paying them, if my conscience needed easing- but since I am *dating* them (not subsidizing them) I don't feel I have any responsibility for them whatsoever. I'm not paying them anything, after all.

As I said before, your PERSONAL experience (or knowledge of) with "well-off disco freelancers" may illustrate a particular point, but it is far from valid when discussing the industry as a whole.

Nana disco is hardly representative of the entire GLOBAL sex industry, and therefore, your encounters with seemlingly "well-off" freelancers there, doesn't refute anything I said.

You love to think that everyone uses prostitutes, don't you. Haven't been to a real disco in years, but I am aware of the way things go there- *you* seem pretty familiar with 'em, come to that.

Incidentally, we're talking about Thailand mainly here, right? BTW, my examples DON'T [not doesn't- subject verb agreement, doncha know] in fact refute anything you say, because they're not trying to. You were talking about the "bad bad" cases. I was pointing out not all cases are bad. You still have refused to point out exactly how "prostitution" should be defined.

I would argue that a good sector of the industry which would still be called prostitution is NOT so sordid (sex slaves' date=' people forced by poverty into it, etc., etc.).[/quote']

There are actual studies that break down those sectors for you. Perhaps you should look them up for yourself and see just how SMALL those "non-sordid" sectors are.

Since your post has not accomplished anything so far but wasting bandwidth, and as you are so convinced such studies would support you, why didn't YOU look them up and post a little evidence here (about Thailand, please, not worldwide). That might actually be interesting, and then there would be something to talk about instead of amusing myself pricking these hot-air balloons of yours. After all, all I'm claiming is that there's a spectrum and we need to define what prostitution means before discussing it. I would say that I don't know why you've gotten yourself into such a lather except that I do- because it's all you live for.

Also, I recommend you take a closer look at the people in those so-called "good sectors".  Check the rates of drug-abuse, alcoholism, suicide, spousal abuse, venereal disease, "employer abuse", and other risk factors.  Then compare those risk factors to the population as a whole.  I think you'll find the same thing that every other scientific study on this topic has found:  ANY prostitute is at higher risk than other workers for a variety of risk factors.

If you can find any data on this separating things by the "good sectors" vs. "bad sectors" (and you still haven't explained which you think those are, or are you agreeing with my implied selection?) then I would like to see it- but I doubt it exists. Are you arguing that Mia Nois are prostitutes? Wives with no independent income? Definitions, please. WHAT is a prostitute?

Incidentally' date=' did you ever figure out if you're married or not?  And why did you edit the posts where you said you were?[/quote']

My personal situation is not a topic in this thread. If you want to discuss my life, start another thread, and you can hero-worship me to your heart's content. But I have no idea what posts you are talking about, nor have I ever said that I was married in any post, editted or not. You must have misread something.

Nice try, Pudgi-troll. But you've been outed and we're onto you now. Still, it's amusing to play with you.

That's all of the wallpaper that attempted, rather unsuccessfully, to identify and respond to what I posted. However, there's one more point I'll answer:

Here's a challenge:

Instead of refuting what I'm saying with antecdotes based on random personal experiences or heresay, why don't you guys try to find ONE scientific study that refutes ANYTHING that I've been saying.

Hey, science is on your side, man- after all, YOU say so. So show us a thing or two and find a study or so about THAILAND, which covers ALL THE SECTORS of what YOU DEFINE as prostitution (making it clear what you define as prostitution). Then we'll have something of substance (finally) to talk about.

"Steven"

[stroll]

I was enjoying this thread until the last few postings. Let's remember this isn't about proving one's negative attitude towards another poster to be right, but it is about exchanging views about there being victims in prostitution and to what extend.

So far all agree that there are victims, but wether it is the same in quantity and quality as in many other professions, and whether there is an exploitative nature implicit in all forms of prostitution seems what the discussion is about.

I find it very useful to switch between personal experiences, local observations and a global socio-political outlook, without disagreeing with anybody violently so far.

Every post contains valid points to be considered.

[Halo]

Prostitution is about choice, they have made theirs so let them live with that decision.

Personally I think they should all be branded so we know who we are addressing, saves time.

[britmaveric]

Ahh Pudgi- you still over simplify the issues here. So are you saying that all prostitutes are recruited underage. This is the exception not the rule- just do a random survey of any Beer Bar in Thailand and you'll find different.

Sure there are horror cases- there always is, but I think you are talking apples and oranges comparing western to far eastern prostitution.

[meemiathai]

the victims of prostitution are mostly the prostitutes themselves. if you bothered to take the time to find out (i undertake voluntry charity work in aid of the fallen women of thailand) then you will find that most of the prostitutes that you use to satisfy your deviant sadomasochistic sexual desires have many of the following in common:-

subjected to rape...

subjected to emotional blackmail...

subjected to physical assault...

have attempted suicide...

suffer from post traumatic stress disorders...

just think about this the next time you are lowering your bloated farang belly onto little poor little noi...

as for stopping prostitution; i feel this can be done...

thank you for your post, HP.

[Pudgimelon]

Ahh Pudgi- you still over simplify the issues here. So are you saying that all prostitutes are recruited underage. This is the exception not the rule- just do a random survey of any Beer Bar in Thailand and you'll find different. Sure there are horror cases- there always is, but I think you are talking apples and oranges comparing western to far eastern prostitution.

No, actually, I did NOT say that ALL prostitutes were recruited underaged. What I DID say was that a SIGNIFICANT number are recruited underaged AND that the sex industry ACTIVELY recruits minors.

You say that based on your "random survey" of any beer bar in thailand I'd find out differently? Hmmmm...... your "science" is suspect to say the least....

It's not hard to find evidence online to refute your hypothesis, for example, consider this article:

Thailand Ranks Third in Number of Child Prostitution

Thailand ranks third after India and the U.S. in the number of child prostitutes, the United Nations (UN) said in its report prepared for the Second World Congress Against Commercial Sexual Exploitation which will be held in Japan Saturday, the Nation Newspaper reported Friday.

According to the U.N. report, about 400,000 women and children are believed to be sexually exploited in India, between 244,000 and 325,000 in the U.S., 200,000 in Thailand, 175,000 in eastern and central Europe, 100,000 in Brazil and 35,000 in West Africa.

The report also said that prostitution in Thailand accounted for 10 to 14 percent of the country's gross domestic product from 1993 to 1995 and an estimated one third of the women involved were minors.

Purachai Piumsombun, Thai Interior Minister Purachai Piumsombun vowed Thursday that the government would do its utmost to end child prostitution.

This problem has to be solved, and all authorities must join hands in tackling it and trying our best to end the business, he was quoted as saying.

TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND WOMEN in Thailand alone, of which ONE-THIRD are minors!

Do the math, buddy. That's nearly 70,000 CHILDREN currently working in the sex industry in Thailand. Of course, they don't stop working when they turn 18, so many of the other 2/3rds of sex workers got their start as minors (bringing you closer to that 70% - 90% number the WHO states got their start as minors).

70,000 children..... does that sound like an "exception" to you??

[Pudgimelon]

Prostitution is about choice, they have made theirs so let them live with that decision.

And if that "choice" is made for them (or by them) as minors, is that still a valid choice in your book?

[meemiathai]

I wonder how many farang men will become gigolos if working on the farm for 100baht a day is the only other choice.

[Pudgimelon]

you still haven't defined exactly what prostitution

I suggest you go find yourself a dictionary. It's listed under "P".

Incidentally, we're talking about Thailand mainly here, right?

No.

Prostitution is a global industry, we can discuss Thailand as a piece of that larger puzzle, but we should never forget that this is a global issue and has a global scope. Focusing on the particulars of the Thai bar scene causes us to lose focus of the larger problems that face ALL workers in this industry.

I was pointing out not all cases are bad.

Good for you. You've managed to find the needle in the haystack. You want a cookie?

After all, all I'm claiming is that there's a spectrum and we need to define what prostitution means before discussing it. 

Again, look in the dictionary. While you're at it, look up: "hair-splitting prick", I believe they have your photo.

But you've been outed and we're onto you now. 

Outed? Onto me? About what? You obviously misread a post I made some time ago, and somehow you come believe that makes you "right" about something. Could you please post a link to the post you believe that I editted? Or are you just blowing smoke (again).

[britmaveric]

Trust me - I'm quite sure therr would be a long cue for sign-up roster for falang men rather than work on the farm for 100thb a day.

I'm going to have to assume the child exploitation is buried deep underground or its a freelance operation. Simply because - can't see anyone willing to end up in jail or lose their business by forcing or hiring children. The thought of it just repulses me one thing if an adult wants to work as a prostitute but another if its a child.

[Heng]

Many 'langs are willing to work for 200-500 Baht an hour (which is less than what most girls over at Poseidon or Emmanuelle are earning) dancing in front of a classroom with whiteboard marker in hand with few other options of alternative employment, yet they choose not to be prostitutes.

[stroll]

Many 'langs are willing to work for 200-500 Baht an hour (which is less than what most girls over at Poseidon or Emmanuelle are earning) dancing in front of a classroom with whiteboard marker in hand with few other options of alternative employment, yet they choose not to be prostitutes.

Which planet do you live on?

Please list some jobs where an unskilled countrygirl can work for 200-500Bt/hr in Thailand?

[Heng]

Many 'langs are willing to work for 200-500 Baht an hour (which is less than what most girls over at Poseidon or Emmanuelle are earning) dancing in front of a classroom with whiteboard marker in hand with few other options of alternative employment, yet they choose not to be prostitutes.

Which planet do you live on?

Please list some jobs where an unskilled countrygirl can work for 200-500Bt/hr in Thailand?

I didn't say there were any.

My point was that there are plenty of people who have limited job opportunities who don't resort to (supposedly "better paid") prostitution.

[Totster]

Many 'langs are willing to work for 200-500 Baht an hour (which is less than what most girls over at Poseidon or Emmanuelle are earning) dancing in front of a classroom with whiteboard marker in hand with few other options of alternative employment, yet they choose not to be prostitutes.

Which planet do you live on?

Please list some jobs where an unskilled countrygirl can work for 200-500Bt/hr in Thailand?

I didn't say there were any.

My point was that there are plenty of people who have limited job opportunities who don't resort to (supposedly "better paid") prostitution.

Heng.... I would imagine it's those that don't have "limited job opportunities" that are more likely to turn to bar work...

totster

[Heng]

Heng.... I would imagine it's those that don't have "limited job opportunities" that are more likely to turn to bar work...

totster 

Job opportunities abound. What's lacking for a lot of these girls and their families is contentment with what one has been blessed with in life.

[Totster]

Heng.... I would imagine it's those that don't have "limited job opportunities" that are more likely to turn to bar work...

totster 

Job opportunities abound. What's lacking for a lot of these girls and their families is contentment with what one has been blessed with in life.

Like the majority of the human race....

[Pudgimelon]

I'm going to have to assume the child exploitation is buried deep underground or its a freelance operation. Simply because - can't see anyone willing to end up in jail or lose their business by forcing or hiring children. The thought of it just repulses me one thing if an adult wants to work as a prostitute but another if its a child.

What I'm trying to point out to you is that many "adults" currently working in the sex industry made that career decision (or had it made for them) when they were children.

If it repulses you to think about children working as prostitutes, it should also repulse you that the victims of child abuse are often "recruited" into the sex industry.

[Pudgimelon]

Job opportunities abound. What's lacking for a lot of these girls and their families is contentment with what one has been blessed with in life.

I believe Heng is making the point that men don't often flee into the sex industry to avoid rural poverty and limited job opportunities. That's a good point to make. It seems to be a given assumption on these boards that village men should work long hours for little pay.

But what about the men who want a better life? Well, then they should get the schooling and job training they need to better themselves (with the proper amount of hard work and motivation), right??

Why isn't this same attitude directed towards women?? If a man from the countryside decided to "better" his economic situation by engaging in illegal activities (drugs, crime), nobody here would view that as a legitimate way to avoid poverty.

And yet when a woman from the countryside decides to "better" her economic situation by engaging in activities which (in Thai culture) don't rate much higher than criminal activities, nobody seems to have a problem with that. Hmmm...........

You definitely get a sense of a double standard here.

[Savage]

If you looked at the Indian prostitution industry i'm sure you'd agree there are alot of victims.

Girls are kept virtual prisoners having been kidnapped from far flung places such as Nepal.

There is no way you can say it is victimless

[Ijustwannateach]

Many 'langs are willing to work for 200-500 Baht an hour (which is less than what most girls over at Poseidon or Emmanuelle are earning) dancing in front of a classroom with whiteboard marker in hand with few other options of alternative employment, yet they choose not to be prostitutes.

Ah, yes- some words from your first hand experience as a teacher...

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

Congrats, Pudgi! You've avoided all the points of my message which were not simplistic, but I could expect no more of you.

Incidentally, this IS a discussion board about topics in Thailand, so I'll keep my remarks focussed on Thailand.

Still don't see any of the "extensive surveys" breaking down the prostitution world into the different "genres," good OR bad- and haven't seen you draw the line where prostitution becomes dating (mia nois, anyone)?

"Steven"

[pantarei]

Here's a challenge:

Instead of refuting what I'm saying with antecdotes based on random personal experiences or heresay, why don't you guys try to find ONE scientific study that refutes ANYTHING that I've been saying.

I've never come across a single bit of info that suggests that prostitution has an overall POSITIVE impact on the lives of the people who chose that profession. So I challenge you guys to find a shred of real evidence to contradict what I'm saying here.

You know you can't and you know you won't because you know that it doesn't exist. But I challenge you to try. Perhaps in your search you'll come across the overwhelming volume of evidence that shows that the sex industry is abusive and exploitative.

I have no dog in this fight but from a purely logical point of view I would like to challenge you to provide one UNBIASED scientific study that suggests that prostitution has an overall NEGATIVE “impact on the lives of people who chose that profession”. I am convinced that there are many negative aspects of prostitution; I just have a problem with sweeping generalization about anything (including prostitution). Before you ask others to prove their point, please prove yours first.

Presumably your “real evidence” refers to statistical studies. If not, your contention falls in the realm of hearsay (something you accuse your opponents of).

As you know, statistical databases are often seriously flawed; the most common problems are biased data and spinning of the interpretation. I will address the first problem only.

Biased data - as pointed out by a number of posters, there are different sub-populations of prostitutes. These include: streetwalkers, bargirls, “masseuses”, freelancers, women who <deleted> their way up the corporate ladder, etc. Do the databases that supposedly PROVE your point include freelancers and corporate whores? If so, how did the researchers seek out the “higher” end of hos? In my OPINION, the hos who experience the most positive aspects of prostitution are unlikely to be sampled (statistically). Prove me wrong.

I look forward to your post with a link to databases on which your conclusions are based. Please, data only - no opinions, hearsay, invoking “overwhelming evidence” without providing any evidence.

[pantarei]

Still don't see any of the "extensive surveys" breaking down the prostitution world into the different "genres," good OR bad- and haven't seen you draw the line where prostitution becomes dating (mia nois, anyone)?

Sorry Ijustwannateach. I posted my (redundant) message before reading yours.

[Ijustwannateach]

No problem... I think it takes more than one person sometimes to get the message through.....

[NedKelly]

In the cultural context when you look at Thailand it may be possible to see that people married early and had babies, not too long ago. So people in their early teens were being married off and were having grandkids by the time they were 35. In this context and given the more modern concepts that Thai youth are into these days, it does not surprise that many are choosing prostitution as a method to advance their economic status. I've heard Thai people describe the conversations and gossip that goes on after a newly wed couple have spent their first nights together.......and the children are not excluded from this. So they learn early.

Whether this is good or bad.....as they say in Thailand ....up to you !!

[Pudgimelon]

Still ... haven't seen you draw the line where prostitution becomes dating (mia nois, anyone)?

I think it's rather sad that you can't distinguish between dating and prostitution. If that "gray area" is too muddled for you to make a distinction on your own, then you must have a very lonely and disheartening life.

I pity you.

[meemiathai]

My point was that there are plenty of people who have limited job opportunities who don't resort to (supposedly "better paid") prostitution.

But have they all ended up living happy lives? I respect the girls who have chosen the harder way of living so that they could maintain their dignity. Anyway, that's not the point.

Different people have different abilities. And also come from different conditions. Some people have the ability to endure a hard life and sometimes being clever enough, save up some money and invest and become wealthy. Some don't! Like some are good at their studies and can go through universities and find themselves good jobs. Whilst some are not capable at school(given the poor enviroment of education in thailand, need I go into detail on that?) and at the same time not satisfied to spend their entire lives doing jobs with no futures. Not everyone are good or mature enough at the age of 16 to know/understand what is right/wrong. Not every BG had gone straight into the industry without trying hard before. Some tried but failed. What is one to do if one sees her father/mother, brother/sister or baby leaves because they didn't have the money to go to hospital? What is one to do if one sees them being looked down/bullied by the richer people? temptations are all over the place and greediness is not monopoly of BGs.

WE, people who come from 1st world have so many opportunities! the ones who fail to realise that we are just goddann lucky are just not having their eyes open!

Who are we to look down on prostitutes? Pathetic batsards!

[poolcleaner]

Hmmm What is it about teachers in thailand and prostitutes?

I,too, have and interest in prostitution and whereas Pudgimelon is obsessed I like to deal with things on a more objective and factual manner.

In the case of Thai prostitution, it's difficult for a farang to get to close to the actual true story of Thailand's prostituition. While there seems to be an endless selection of bars, massage parlours etc available to men from the west and also those from Japan and Korea, these represent, in most cases, the 'pleasant' side of the industry.

The contrast is the brothels, cafes, hotels and barber shops who service primarily Thai customers, with others servicing nationalities on Thailand's borders. Here the conditions are far different from the smiling sea of faces (?) at the 'Morning/Night bar' or the well dressed ladies of a tuk-tuk touts glossy brochure.

Child prostitution, bonded slavery, rape, assault and diseases are prevalent in these places and dreams of TVs mobile phones and a rich husband are pretty rare.

The legalisaton of prostitution is the most important step the Thai govt can do to help solve the problem. This will assist in the identification of those who exploit and mistreat the people working for them.

The girls in the farang bars have a choice whether they wish to work in a particular establishment or not. They are free to choose. This right should be extended to all players in 'the game'.

[Ijustwannateach]

Still ... haven't seen you draw the line where prostitution becomes dating (mia nois, anyone)?

I think it's rather sad that you can't distinguish between dating and prostitution. If that "gray area" is too muddled for you to make a distinction on your own, then you must have a very lonely and disheartening life.

I pity you.

Ok, it's confirmed. You're unwilling to engage in any form of measured debate- you're just a troll here to rant and rave. No use paying attention to Pudgitroll anymore.

"Steven"