Prostitution - A Victim-less Industry?

[Heng]

My point was that there are plenty of people who have limited job opportunities who don't resort to (supposedly "better paid") prostitution. 

But have they all ended up living happy lives?

In my opinion, more so than those who choose to sell ass (sleep with thousands of people... not worth it I'd say if you even contract ONE STD along the way or even get raped ONE time in a 20 year "career") to have a "nice" home and car back in Issan, or even in England or Germany. More stuff, greater wealth, doesn't necessarily = happy ending. I don't believe happy endings should include having to block out thousands of negative experiences from one's past.

[stroll]

Different people have different abilities. And also come from different conditions.

Yes, and it appears there is a correlation between having been sexually abused and choosing to work as a prostitute.

I won't quote any statistics, but on the subject of prostitution having a negative effect on working girls -overall, not for all in all sectors and everywhere-, ask yourself how chronic abuse of illegal substances would compare to other occupations, how the percentage of socially dysfunctionals and mentally disturbed would be compared to other professions, and how financial security at the end of the working life, either through pension schemes or family, would compare?

[Ijustwannateach]

Hey, Poolcleaner- nice to see you here!

I agree with your post entirely. Government regulation cuts out the criminal side of the profit and increases the safety, security, and healthy of the workers [and also eliminates the dodgier side of the industry and the nastier customers- i.e., slavery and child prostitution and their customers].

Probably it's the criminals (procurers and pimps) themselves who stand to gain the most from the criminalization of prostitution, as they do from the criminalization of drugs.

"Steven"

[Pudgimelon]

I look forward to your post with a link to databases on which your conclusions are based.

Here you go, knock yourself out:

Coalition Against Trafficking in Women. Philosophy.

Retrieved July 2, 2000 from the World Wide Web:

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/catw/philos.htm

Rogers, B. (Oct/Nov 1999). Bitter harvest. Ms. Magazine, 9. New York: Liberty Media for Women.

U.S. Department of State. (1999). Thailand Country Report on Human Rights Practices for 1998.

Retrieved July 2, 2000 from the World Wide Web:

http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_righ...t/thailand.html

Equality Now. (December 1996). Women's Action 12.1: Sex Tourism: "Real sex with real girls, all for real cheap"

Retrieved July 2, 2000 from the World Wide Web:

http://www.equalitynow.org/action_eng_12_1.html

The World Bank Group. (September 1999). The World Bank and Thailand.

Retrieved July 2, 2000 from the World Wide Web:

http://wbln0018.worldbank.org/eap/eap.nsf/...30?OpenDocument

In my OPINION, the hos who experience the most positive aspects of prostitution are unlikely to be sampled (statistically).  Prove me wrong.

I have no intention of proving you wrong. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Right or wrong.

I would like to pose a little question for you though. Is it your belief that "high-priced whores" are a significantly large enough segment of the sex-worker population to "throw off" the statistical surveys??

Logically, that just doesn't make sense to me. After all, simple economics would suggest that a "high-price" would equal a "scarce supply", correct?

And let's quit with the word games, guys, as it is an unproductive discussion. If you choose to believe that housewives and corporate women (with questionable ethics) are "prostitutes" of the same ilk as bargirls and streetwalkers, then we have nothing further to discuss on this topic.

I'm not going to sit here and have a debate on whether or not a housewife is a prostitute. That's a silly attempt at diversion from the TOPIC of this thread, and I'm not taking the bait. If you chose to see this as some sort of "victory", then so be it. But frankly, I think it's quite sad that you guys have such a low and hateful of ALL women.

If you actually need to have a discussion on whether or not a housewife is a prostitute, then by all means, start another thread, but I won't take part in that discussion. Merely entertaining that notion in a hypothetical sense is an insult to all the hard-working, decent and loving housewives and mothers out there.

Shame on you people for trying to dump mothers and wives into the same category as streetwalkers just so you can say that "some forms of prostitution ain't so bad." I hope your own mothers never read this thread (or maybe you hate your moms, and that's why you want to call them whores).

This thread is about whether or not PROSTITUTION is a victimless INDUSTRY. Which to me says that we should be focussing on the commercial sex industry, and not on your personal vendettas against all women simply because your mommy didn't toilet train you properly.

Since IJWT is too lazy to look up the definition of prostitution in a dictionary I'll provide a working definition for this thread: "Prostitution is sex for pay." In other words, it is a COMMERCIAL relationship, NOT an emotional one. And I cannot believe I actually had to clarify that for you guys. What an odd collection of emotionally handicapped people you must be if you actually need that spelled out for you. Sad. Truly sad.....

As you know, statistical databases are often seriously flawed; the most common problems are biased data and spinning of the interpretation.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......... Another tired attempt to divert off the topic. Look, you can't have it both ways. You can't nitpick the "statistical bias" of a study in one breath, and then in the very next breath ask me to provide you with statistical proof to back up what I say.

Either you're going to accept the validity of the data or not. But I'm not going to waste my time googling for "evidence" on the internet, only to have you post some horsesh-t excuses about the "data being biased" or "statistics can lie".

By the way, I can easily provide volumes of data to back up my assertions. Biased or not. (And by the way, it seems quite unlikely that EVERYONE is lying about the negative impacts of the sex industry). Can you do the same thing so easily? Come on, I challenge you. Find ONE study or scrap of data that refutes ANYTHING I've said so far.

I would like to challenge you to provide one UNBIASED scientific study that suggests that prostitution has an overall NEGATIVE “impact on the lives of people who chose that profession”.

OK, here you go:

It is difficult to estimate how many people are working in prostitution because so many women working as waitresses, hotel maids, salesclerks, bar girls, and golf caddies are forced into prostitution as part of their work. In Thailand, it has been estimated that at least 200,000 women and children work in prostitution. At least one-third of Thai prostitutes are under the age of 18, and most adult prostitutes started when they were only children. Children as young as six years old work in prostitution. Prostitutes are primarily women and girls, although some men and boys also work in prostitution.

Many of the children who work in prostitution come from extremely poor families -- the child's work as a prostitute may feed her entire family. Women and children may also be illegal trafficked from one country to another under the belief that they will find work in another country. Their traffickers force them to pay a high price, and to work in prostitution on their arrivals in order to pay for their travel.

The sexual health of women and children in prostitution is severely harmed in many ways:

Increased risk of HIV/AIDS

Risk of sexually transmitted infections

Risk of unwanted pregnancy

Vaginal tearing

Violence

Rape

Physical abuse

Confinement

Prostitution is a violation of women's human rights, and treats women as objects. The pain of being treated so poorly can lead to depression and resignation. The state of girls' mental health is best illustrated by Poppy, quoted in The Child and the Tourist by Ron O'Grady:

"I found myself dancing at a club at the age of 11... I have had different kinds of customers, foreigners and Filipinos. I tried suicide but it didn't work so I turned to drugs. I want to die before my next birthday." (Quoted on http://www.equalitynow.org/action_eng_12_1.html)

Prostitution teaches men to view women as objects. Thus not only are women and children who are prostitutes harmed, but all women are harmed by prostitution.

That article contains links to the studies and data you requested (I posted them above).

OK, so I've provided you with one example, I could provide more, but I don't have all day to google around just to make you happy. You can do it yourself and you'll see for yourself that there are plenty of resources that back me up.

So now the ball is in your court. Prove me wrong.

[poolcleaner]

Of course one irrefutable statistic regarding prostitution is the sheer weight of numbers of women in the industry. To many because it's a well paid job.

If it was all crap ie.

"I found myself dancing at a club at the age of 11... I have had different kinds of customers, foreigners and Filipinos. I tried suicide but it didn't work so I turned to drugs. I want to die before my next birthday."

why would so many be queuing up for a try?

Why would girls with regular jobs, such as department strores etc., choose to leave and work in bars?

For every one 'real life example' that paints a bad picture you can easily find another where the girl is doing quite nicely thank you very much.

You can't ignore facts.

[meemiathai]

My point was that there are plenty of people who have limited job opportunities who don't resort to (supposedly "better paid") prostitution. 

But have they all ended up living happy lives?

In my opinion, more so than those who choose to sell ass (sleep with thousands of people... not worth it I'd say if you even contract ONE STD along the way or even get raped ONE time in a 20 year "career") to have a "nice" home and car back in Issan, or even in England or Germany. More stuff, greater wealth, doesn't necessarily = happy ending. I don't believe happy endings should include having to block out thousands of negative experiences from one's past.

Agreed! But most of them won't know before they reach the point of no return.

[stroll]

Just because many people are doing something, doesn't mean it's good, healthy or even a free choice. Besides, there are no career advicers informing young women about the hazards of the occupation.

After we established that many prostitutes are 'recruited' when they are underage, I find your post rather offensive, poolcleaner.

[meemiathai]

Probably it's the criminals (procurers and pimps) themselves who stand to gain the most from the criminalization of prostitution, as they do from the criminalization of drugs.

"Steven"

And police officers!

[Jimbo]

Are so many girls leaving jobs at department stores and offices to become a whore? I sincerely doube that. Most girls I have talked to and know rather well ( No, I havent slept with them) have not finished their secondary education or even started in. Many have been in the business from an early age and have never done anything else. Many employers especially in places like Central do require some form of school certificate.

I do believe that many of the girls have other options. There are still jobs around such as factory work, cleaning houses etc. However when i asked why they dont take a job like that then they said they dont want to work 8 hours a day, 6 days a week for 4000 THB a month which they can earn by sleeping with 3 or 4 farang each month. I think its a bad way to look at life but its the reality.

I know several bar girls who were given regular jobs like as waiters in restaurants, helped in a tour company etc. The longest one lasted 3 months. They are used to the bar life, not really working hard for their money, being pissed each night, smoking YA BA etc etc. It is extremely difficult for them to enter main stream society. There are offcourse exceptions however it is hard.

[poolcleaner]

After we established that many prostitutes are 'recruited' when they are underage, I find your post rather offensive, poolcleaner.

"we established??" "many??" What about the rest? Voluntary!! Their decision!!

By all means be offended but you can't ignore facts!!

McDonalds. Exploitive? Unhealthy? Popular?

[meemiathai]

However when i asked why they dont take a job like that then they said they dont want to work 8 hours a day, 6 days a week for 4000 THB a month which they can earn by sleeping with 3 or 4 farang each month. I think its a bad way to look at life but its the reality.

these sort of statements come out during superficial conversations. I doubt they truly reflects what's inside their mind.

[Coffee Dude]

I think, in a nut shell, IF you can take your personal view of the moral implications out. Prostitution is a job. Many people have jobs which they believe really suck, but the guy next door with the exact same job loves it.

My GF worked in a bar for a short time (2 months). Before that she had worked in an office for a regional politician as an office assistant. She had also worked in a 'factory' assembling some type of electronic parts. One of her associates previously worked in the home of a wealthy falang as a house keeper. So, yes, some sex industry workers do leave "morally" acceptable jobs to become, in some of your views, the scum of the earth. The difference in the way that most of these girls prostitute themselves (if you can stop thinking for one moment that sex is evil) is in reality not much different than the way many of you prostitute yourselves in your chosen proffesions.

I have found that usually when you are doing something you don't like you can get paid for it and when you are doing something you like you have to pay for it.

Coffee!!!

[poolcleaner]

Are so many girls leaving jobs at department stores and offices to become a whore? I sincerely doube that. Most girls I have talked to and know rather well ( No, I havent slept with them) have not finished their secondary education or even started in. Many have been in the business from an early age and have never done anything else.

So your experiences differ from mine. I could jokingly say maybe I frequent better establishments than you but IME most of the girls I've met (No I haven't slept with all of them) have walked out on regular jobs to work in bars. NONE have ever admitted that they were recruited as children. I could list the places such as dept stores, bowling alleys etc. which the girls have left to work in bars, not to mention uni students, when you talk about the farang scene the majority have chosen their occupation.

As for age. Most of the older girls (over say 23) had entered the trade at ages between 25 and 30.

I'm looking for the evidence that everyone is claiming as fact.

That the girls are slaves.

That they were recruited at a young age.

That they hate their jobs.

I'm looking but it's hard to find.

[Dickie]

Complex discussion about a complex subject. Every point produces a counterpoint, just like everyone has someone who's not like them at all.

For my tuppence worth, all the problems I've read here existed before the girls entered the profession, so it's not the profession that makes 'victims': they were victims before they got into it.

Stripping it down to its purest form, it's victimless. Woman offers, man bids, deal struck, deed done , man pays, both gain.

The criminal stuff always springs up around something profitable - drugs is a good example - but the core reason for the crime isn't usually bad, just profitable.

[stroll]

You guys make it sound like a sensible career choice, on a par with being a secretary or supermarket manager.

Have you not read any of the previous posts? Have you made the effort of reading any reports made by people who research the subject for a living? Ever read the newspapers or watch tv?

Child- and forced prostitution a myth? Reports of STDs, rape, physical and emotional damage invented by sexually scewed up moralists?

GET REAL!!!

[Ijustwannateach]

And let's quit with the word games, guys, as it is an unproductive discussion.  If you choose to believe that housewives and corporate women (with questionable ethics) are "prostitutes" of the same ilk as bargirls and streetwalkers, then we have nothing further to discuss on this topic.

Hey, Pudgi- just in case you really are making a serious effort- to let you know- your 1st, 3rd, and 4th links are duds at the moment (at least on my computer)- check 'em out yourself (as you probably did not to begin with). And the 2nd link has very little to do with broad statistics on prostitution and is rather a general overview of human rights in Thailand by the U.S. State Dept. Prostitution *is* mentioned, but not in any detailed statistical way and not according to any spectrum breakdown, as I continue to try to discuss it here.

Pudgi, you're talking about exploitation. I'm claiming that all the groups I mentioned in my earlier posts are "exploited" to a certain degree. Where is the line that makes it prostitution? Are "kept" men and women prostitutes? Are Mia Nois? It's an important question because unless you are putting yourself in the role of being a better judge of their situations than THEY are (which is not unlikely, considering your character), their self-reporting would often likely indicate they would RATHER go on being Mia Nois, Kept Boys, etc. than go work in the local fruit stand, which is always an option [no one's holding a gun to their heads].

So is this a good starting definition for real prostitution? Prostitution becomes the "bad" type when those who are engaged in it/forced to do it would report they don't like doing it if they could? I don't necessarily have the answer to this myself, but I think it's one of the important questions.

Shame on you people for trying to dump mothers and wives into the same category as streetwalkers just so you can say that "some forms of prostitution ain't so bad."  I hope your own mothers never read this thread (or maybe you hate your moms, and that's why you want to call them whores).

Actually, this puts me in mind of another thread once upon a time where you said Ken's mom was a whore, and he was wondering how you found out, but that's neither here nor there [apologies, Ken!]

Well, lots of prostitutes ARE mothers, Pudgi- do you think it never happens? And should they be stopped?

And once more, what about the kept men and women and the Mia Nois?

This thread is about whether or not PROSTITUTION is a victimless INDUSTRY. 

In Thailand, right?

Which to me says that we should be focussing on the commercial sex industry, and not on your personal vendettas against all women simply because your mommy didn't toilet train you properly.

Have you started talking to the evil imaginary audience again?

Remember, when Jesus starts talking to you from the TV set, its time for your meds!

Since IJWT is too lazy to look up the definition of prostitution in a dictionary I'll provide a working definition for this thread:  "Prostitution is sex for pay."  In other words, it is a COMMERCIAL relationship, NOT an emotional one.  And I cannot believe I actually had to clarify that for you guys.  What an odd collection of emotionally handicapped people you must be if you actually need that spelled out for you.  Sad.  Truly sad.....

So, Mia Nois are prostitutes? Kept men and women are prostitutes? Since this is so simple for you, you obviously should be able to give a simple yes or no answer.

By the way, I can easily provide volumes of data to back up my assertions.  Biased or not.  (And by the way, it seems quite unlikely that EVERYONE is lying about the negative impacts of the sex industry).  Can you do the same thing so easily?  Come on, I challenge you.  Find ONE study or scrap of data that refutes ANYTHING I've said so far.

So far, your links have failed and your quoted article did not refer to Thailand. The link which did not fail was not about prostitution. Please keep looking for those "easy volumes."

"Steven"

[stroll]

Maybe it is the frequent 'users' of prostitutes who need to deny that there could be something harmful attached to this kind of 'service industry'.

[poolcleaner]

You guys make it sound like a sensible career choice, on a par with being a secretary or supermarket manager.

Have you not read any of the previous posts? Have you made the effort of reading any reports made by people who research the subject for a living? Ever read the newspapers or watch tv?

Child- and forced prostitution a myth? Reports of STDs, rape, physical and emotional damage invented by sexually  scewed up moralists?

GET REAL!!!

I've never denied the existence of the material used in the reports (ps there's a good job, researching prostitution for a living )

If we make it 'seem like a sensible career choice' don't make these 'our words' I relate what some of the girls I've talked to have said. I'm not about encouraging people into the industry but when my experiences are contrary to what the reports and 'sexually screwed up moralists' (not my words Pudgi) why should I not question the facts?

Maybe it's you who should put down the paper and turn off the TV and get yourself down to a bar and ask the questions yourself.

[Coffee Dude]

Pudgi

Unfortunately, legalization does little to improve the conditions for sex workers. There are quite a few places where prostitution is either legal or at least openly tolerated, and abuses still exist.

Toleration and legalization are not the same.

Pudgi

Children are still recruited into the industry, even in places like Las Vegas or the Netherlands. In fact, several studies have shown that the percentage of child-workers in the sex industry DOES NOT CHANGE, even when prostitution is legalized.

Prostitution and child abuse are both illegal in Las Vegas and prosecution for such is at a high rate each of which are segregated into different offenses (Although other locations in the state of Nevada do allow for legal prostitution). I have no direct knowledge about Holland. But I must assume that child abuse is not legal. Therefore, it is the lack of inforcement of existing laws that is the problem, not the fact that something legal causing the problem.

Pudgi

Consider this: what is the average "life-span" of a prostitutes career? 10 years? 20 years? What kind of "career advancement" does the industry have to offer it's workers? Where is the retirement plan? Disability? Health insurance? OSHA workplace safety standards? Etc......

Do you have all of these things at your job here in Thailand?

Heck, it's quite common for sex workers to work for their "employers" competely without PAY. They work solely on tips, and are often docked for taking time off.

I personally have not know anyone to work for free. Instead the girls I have known, and some I have befriended, do not work at the bars as prostitutes. They are paid a small wage or basic pay, sometimes they are given free housing and/or food allowance. They receive money for 'lady drinks' which is quite considerable sum of money (up to 40 baht per drink) = 3-4 drinks per day is minimum wage. This is their value to the bar owner SELL ALCOHOL. The bar fine is a reimbursement to the bar owner for the days salary for the worker as he/she will be of no direct value to the bar if he/she leaves with a customer.

I realize this isn't all encompassing as it only refers to BG.

Legalization and contol of the industry would satisfy most of your complaints. The reality is that even if it were legalized in most societies the enformcement would be laxed and criminal types would still exist (as they do in all legal industries). So victimless(without victims) will never be the case in any industry. My home is Baton Rouge, Louisiana home of Jimmy Swaggert, Evangelical Christian a lot of people were hurt by him.

Coffee!!!

[stroll]

[

I've never denied the existence of the material used in the reports (ps there's a good job, researching prostitution for a living )

Sorry, I shouldn't have generalised, I did read your post earlier referring to the darker side of the trade, it's just the cluster of posts preceding mine which wound me up.

Prostitution is a hazardous occupation by nature, not a cushy job for lazy teens.

If we make it 'seem like a sensible career choice' don't make these 'our words' I relate what some of the girls I've talked to have said. I'm not about encouraging people into the industry but when my experiences are contrary to what the reports and 'sexually screwed up moralists' (not my words Pudgi) why should I not question the facts?

Maybe it's you who should put down the paper and turn off the TV and get yourself down to a bar and ask the questions yourself.

I have done so, nobody confirmed that they had been sold to a brothel by their parents and I haven't seen any 12-year olds chained to the bed, either.

Does this confirm prostitution is victimless? Does it mean that researchers' reports are false or exaggerated? As you said yourself:

In the case of Thai prostitution, it's difficult for a farang to get to close to the actual true story of Thailand's prostituition. While there seems to be an endless selection of bars, massage parlours etc available to men from the west and also those from Japan and Korea, these represent, in most cases, the 'pleasant' side of the industry.

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm still waiting for someone to agree or disagree with my speculation above about where the good/bad line lies in prostitution- because it seems that everyone (even Pudgi) agrees there is a good and bad side, though everyone seems to disagree where that line should be- it seems to me that forcing people to choose where to draw the line would show whether they're thinking about this with some sort of rational plan or if it's all just touchy-feely-fuzzy judgement.

"Steven"

[britmaveric]

Think Pudgi should go out and talk to some of these girls...yes they have horror stories however in alot of the cases it occurred by their ex-husbands.

-alcoholic husbands who are abusive and don't support their families as they should.

-abandonment- left to fend for themselves and their little ones

Is prostitution ideal profession - probably not? However its a means to an end and the ultimate goal is to meet a good man who will take care of them. (maybe a fairy tale, but lot of the thinking goes that way)

BTW alot of the so called Department store clerks or shop workers free lance as well. I think I recall reading a growing trend among thai university students entering the sex industry for kicks and extra dosh.

As I'm sure there is a dark/twisted side, there is also a pure economic side to this. Let's be honest if there were good paying jobs for everyone and they were able to support their families a majority of this would be moot. Sure you still would have a small number working in the industry, but it wouldn't be anywhere as much as it is now.

[Coffee Dude]

pros·ti·tute

n.

One who solicits and accepts payment for sex acts.

One who sells one's abilities, talent, or name for an unworthy purpose.

tr.v. pros·ti·tut·ed, pros·ti·tut·ing, pros·ti·tutes

To offer (oneself or another) for sexual hire.

To sell (oneself or one's talent, for example) for an unworthy purpose.

source: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Prostitute

Coffee!!!

[sleir]

Hm... Yet another thread which is more about personal styles of having a discussion than on the topic itself ..

Many, if not all, seem to agree that prostituition in Thailand, or worldwide if you want, has many negative aspects for most of the participating parties, but mainly the prostitutes themselves.

Since it has many participants, all human by the way, with many different personal viewpoints, intentions, histories, social backgrounds, morasl etc. it is impossible to see it on a moralist viewpoint, meaning black and white does quite simply not exist !

For me personally tho, this does not mean that you have to exclude morals from this discussion as pudgi has rightly pointed out,

but imho unfortunately has failed to live up himself. (Personal attacks, flames against everyone contradicting partially, as nobody seemed to fully disagree, there should be enough shared viewpoints for a good discussion ?)

So some people in this discussion seem to try to understand the complex picture from their personal experience and others, yes it's you pudgi, try to simplify the topic by viewing it in a broader, international picture based on more or less scientific statistics and surveys. When i say try to simplify, i am aware that it isn't the same as to ignore exceptions, or contradicting examples but rather a way to have a pretty good overall picture, in oder to make a valid general statement. In order to make a general statement not based on personal experience you always have to generalise.

Both are valid methods to discuss this delicate topic, tho both are unable to get it as a whole, which few if not none here has claimed to have achieved. So why don't we try to have a more laid-back discussion without always accusing the other to have said/thought or to be something that simply could not be read in the previous posts ?

Thanks all, by the way, i strongly vote for the legalisation of prostitution, not in order to enforce it of course, or to make it a socially accepted profession, but

to be able to have a legal background and rights for the people involved and also in order to cut down corruption and criminality a little.

Personally i have little experience with prostitution back home (Switzerland) or in Thailand but personally i "feel" the degradation of (wo)men who are involved, on both sides, for me these places have a terrible atmosphere and i heavily doubt anyone profits of it in the end... not speaking about money when i say that.

Thanks for reading

sleir

ps : oh yeah, Pudgy : if you're interested in controversial topics where there aren't any flames yet, why don't you read and reply to the thread you have started yourself regarding feminism ? (A Poll about the thesis that ones personal viewpoint about feminism highly depends on your age)

[Ijustwannateach]

pros·ti·tute

n.

One who solicits and accepts payment for sex acts.

One who sells one's abilities, talent, or name for an unworthy purpose.

tr.v. pros·ti·tut·ed, pros·ti·tut·ing, pros·ti·tutes

To offer (oneself or another) for sexual hire.

To sell (oneself or one's talent, for example) for an unworthy purpose.

source: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Prostitute

Coffee!!!

So, Coffee Man (or Pudgi or anyone)- yes or no-

does a kept woman or a Mia Noi prostitute herself by this definition?

"Steven"

[poolcleaner]

Of course a mia noi or kept woman or gik for that matter is a prostitute.

The definition is broad but for some the 'hollywood'version is the easiest to imagine.

I agree steven. Even some 'wives' are prostitutes. (apologies to my wife!!)

[monkeygirl]

Does someone get hurt as the result of prostitution? Almost always, whether it's the john himself, the whore, the wife of the john, the children of either or both, the government entity that has to pay for the spread of disease. So, there is a victim.

If there is choice for all of these participants it makes it somewhat less of an evil. But can you say a woman has choices when she has no means to support herself? Or that a child prostitute that has been gang-raped and chained to a bed has a choice? Or the choice of the woman who's husband sleeps around and gives her AIDS? Or the choice of the child of the prostitute to be brought into the world this way? The johns have all the choices here, whether to support and industry that causes the suffering of many lives.

[kat]

I hope I can make this short, because I've commented on this in prior threads.

Prostitution is global, but if we are in Thailand, a more appropriate approach would be to talk about the transnational nature of Thai prostitution IMHO. Simply because, although there can be some generalized similarities about prostitution, there are differences between first world and third world prostitution. However, the overlap is in transnational prostitution, and the global trafficking market which ships in women from devleoping countries to developed ones. So yes, there is overlap.

There is human trafficking in America, in Australia, in Europe, as well as self-selected prostitutes. I do not advocate viewing all women who work as prositutes as victims. This is condescending in my view, however, we should be aware of the lack of choices and circumstances that have driven many women to make that "choice". For some women, it is just a high-paying job in which they exert a gread deal of control. I think this is the exception in a global sense.

In Asia, without a doubt, you simply cannot separate the prior circumstances regarding a girl's family and status in her decision to become a prostitute. As I said and backedup in another thread, there is a well established connection between prior sexual abuse and a girls foray into prostitution. In S.E. Asia, prior sexual abuse accounts for 30-50% of girl children's experience (UN ESCAP 2001/2, among others; they interviewed more than 10,000 children in mainland S.E. Asia). However, there is a low report rate of abuse and rape. There are also ancedotal accounts of girls that have been abused by their families and people in their village before being sent off to brothels as the "chosen" one. Some people here do not view sexual abuse as such if the girl is no longer a virgin. It doesn't take a great leap to see a possible significant association between this and prostitution here, expecially given Thailand's past high profile in child prostitution not very long ago.

However, how one thinks of "abuse" or "victimization" is cultural, and has to do with how one views variable sexual norms of a given place. Therefore, place does matter in terms of enforcement and attitudes.

Already, I am going on too long. One other thing. The statistic of 200,000 women is an old statistic that originated with the police approximately around 1992-94. It was underestimated then (because of not wanting to reveal the real source of the underground economy - read bribes -, and because they surveyed entertainment venues. It is much higher. Without a doubt, the number of freelance prostitutes has increased exponentially, and this is much harder to gauge or control. Therefore, many suspect that the number of child prostitutes has simply shifted after the crackdown of 1996 from entertainment venues to freelance.

If you want my sources, I'll gladly give them to you but they are scrolled on a notepad that is not with me at the moment.

[poolcleaner]

A very good post Pat.

The thread is far to general to successfully have a sensible debate.

Either the discussion is on 'child prostitution' 'transnational prostitution' or it focusses on what we, as farang, know to be prostitution in Thailand.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are victims in the first 2 options but I'm not convinced about the local farang scene.

Perhaps a more vigorous discussion on action to assist in the demise of the first 2 options would be more beneficial.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Kat, thank you. Your point about some women having a choice (at least of a certain kind) is one I was trying to work my way around to indirectly. Naturally, the kind of prostitution where there is no choice has no defense (and I hope, no defenders on this board).

^Also good point, poolcleaner. Sadly, though, I think the types are interlinked. As long as sex=money, there will be those who create, exploit, and serve a market for sex.

In an impossible, perfect-world I would suggest that relaxed taboos on voluntary sexual expression might result in fewer hangups and more freely available sexual satisfaction for all, but that will have to follow the part of the perfect world where one's value as a person is no longer labelled economically. Plus we are fighting a little bit of that ol' evolutionary instinctual thing about spreadin' genes- though the sexual model of bonobo apes and some other primates is actually more liberal than many of our cultural societies subscribe to.

In the short term, I'd say avoid making a market for prostitution by doing one's best to avoid choosing partners who must be paid. In fact, though, the group of persons creating the market often have few alternatives to acquiring the kind of partner or the type of satisfaction they want except through financial incentive- either because of their lack of self-esteem or from bad habit. I think there are very few people on Earth who fail to find ANY sexual partner as long as they are not too particular.

"Steven"