Destroyed Tapes Show CIA Prisons In Thailand

[Ricardo]

I wonder if people in WW2 complained about waterboarding an SS officer during interrigation.

it would surely have been, then as now, against the Geneva Convention ?

War is war and don't forget who started it long before 911.

Erm ... Satan, or Shaitan as Islam would call him ? I give up ! Who ??

Well, one thing we know for sure is that like ALL problems on planet earth it must be ............."ALL GEORGE BUSHES FAULT !! "

Excellent use of humour !

[Canadianvisitor]

Easy to find, just locate the tailor that makes the orange overalls and see where he delivered them.

Well done Thailand - I'm sure the Yanks appreciate your support!!!!

Well said! That you Muhammed?

So after over 50 years of use, the polygraph is now discredited because game-show hosts in a couple of countries use it, then how about drugs ? Surely more humane than torture ?

No, the polygraph is discredited because its often inconsistant, and easily cheatable. hel_l, you can go online and find instructions on how to pass one! Also, they are better suited to yes and no questions, not when trying to get detailed and truthful statements out of a suspect.

CIA - "Tell us where Bin Laden is hiding!"

Terrorist - "No"

I think the use of non-lethal "torture" techniques to get life saving information is absolutly warranted in these situations. We aren't dealing with good people, so why treat them that way? If we locked them away, fed them gourmet food and gave them satellite TV's, it wouldn't change how they treat our captives (beatings, rapes, beheadings, etc...), so no point in trying to kill them with kindness. Beat the shit out out them until they crack.

My goodness, some of the people here really are brainwashed by all the EU and US mainstream propaganda.

Have no idea about the history of the CIA, history of the ME, no clue about so callled waterboarding and think all Muslims are (potential) terrorist and think all Christians are holier then the Pope.

Anyway I am just wondering when those torture chambers in Thailand were build and who authorised that.

Must be someone at a very high position but I am sure the dearly beloved would not have approved it.

Do you know how to read? The rules on treatment of prisoners ONLY applies to soldiers who are part of a country's armed forces.

Again: How convenient.

Either way you can't possibly win this discussion, and I've read quite a bit of psycho extremist views here that make me think twice about quite a lot of posters who seemed reasonable people before.

To spell it out: If they AREN'T part of a country's armed forces then this puts it in the realm of law enforcement. People who committed crimes should them be extradited and face trial.

Where in the US constitution does it say that torture is sometimes okay in law enforcement?

It DOESN'T. Anyone advocating this is an accomplice to undermining the US constitution and the very values they pretend to hold dear.

If the terrorists capture US soldiers, they are killed. Got it?

Interesting then that the US has supported and is supporting many groups they prefer to call 'freedom fighters'. But if they're on the other side then they're terrorists I guess.

Mr. Bush belongs in The Hague, very clear and simple. Then he can pretend he 'didn't know'.

Ahhh! I see we have another naive pinhead posting here:D Let me clue you in buckwheat, the U.S. Constitution ....allowed to freely practice their chosen religion.

These postings I personally found quite entertaining in many ways.

Torture doesn't work, the tortured will say anything to stop the pain, this is a proven fact.

Iraq has nothing to do with Usama been Later,

Remeber when George Senior and Bill Clinton were in Thailand,

do you really think they were just popping in to chat about the Tsunami damage?

Relate the Muslim fanatics in the south to the last sentence.

There is a very close proximity between Thailand and Afghanistan/Pakistan.

This is the real centre of all the trouble along with Saudi Arabia.

Thailand will be compensated in some way for the real estate for the torture chambers,

I just hope it is the US style of torture chamber not the Saddam Hussein type,

because the Saddam Hussein type were really wrong!

The US style of torture is much more light and refreshing!

Sheesh! Well I am far too much a pacifist to be involved in this debate but it sure gives one

reflection in what the world has come to in the last eight years.

Later,

[fsuthai]

Some of you people are unbelievable. Apparently many have a tough time here relating to the real victims of some of these terrorists acts.

Your evidence for this outrageous statement ? That some of us condemn torture or terrorism by whoever carries it out ? The terrorist-victim & tortured innocent-man are both equally victims of extreme injustice !

Believe it or not, we're all suffering here from mass bombings and future threats... We just want it stopped and want to get to the bottom of the acts.

Agreed - but this does not justify atrocities or torture, by either 'side'.

So.....if one of these guys for a fact is involved with or has knowledge of killing YOUR parent or child via one of many unthinkable acts (or one yet to come), you're going to worry about HIS rights?!?

How do you know he's involved for a fact ? Until it is proved, darned right I am concerned about physical-torture, of a potentially-innocent person. What if it's you who is mistakenly in the 'hot seat' ? Don't you want me to be against your being tortured ?

I don't think you'd just sit there and be easy on the guy. Or...then again maybe some of you would from some of what I've read here. How to win arguements - by slurring your opponents ?

We're talking about "waterboarding".....where the person believes he is drowning, but in a controlled environment. He thinks that death is imminent, so he talks (which is what we all want, right?). There is no physical damage.

Which fits the definition of torture quoted earlier.

What you're saying here, and I exagerate only slightly, is that torture is OK, because it's done by 'our' guys, who never make mistakes or get carried-away, and anyway they're probably all guilty.

If you simply want the the prisoner to talk, as I do too, can't you use drugs or a lie-detector, to find out the truth ? I suspect that there is an element of revenge here, which is totally wrong, because some of these people are later found to be innocent. I repeat the point which I made earlier - how would you apologise, to an innocent man, who you had just wrongly tortured ?

Let alone the likely result of false-confessions, misleading the anti-terrorist effort.

You make it seem that the CIA is going to a Muslim enclave and saying "eenie, meenie, minie, moe"... and then picking a random person out of the crowd. Trust me, that's not how it works.

The agency is intercepting communications, receiving tips from trusted/reliable informants, etc before declaring an individual a subject of interest.

Waterboarding is but one technique used to interrogate a detainee. A polygraph may be used to discern if someone is telling the truth (when providing information), but it cannot be used for "force" information out of someone, and it is not always a reliable tool anyways. Don't believe the nonsense you see on television concerning polygraph tests. With proper experience/training, a polygraph can easily be fooled. (If you strongly believe something to be true, even if it is a lie, then it is "true").

If I were to torture a person that was later found to be innocent, I would say "Sorry mate; no hard feelings right?"; then go on with my day. If my attitude appalls you, then so be it.

I'm sure you and any of the other 'they deserve whatever they get' commenters don't CARE what anyone else thinks but, frankly, it does appall me---and I would hope that you would serve some prison time for doing so. Waterboarding or any other form of torture is illegal, by U.S. law (which is why "renditions" and 'out of country' torture sites were started), by International law (the U.N.), and by the Geneva Convention...to which the U.S.A. is a signed member. Not only is it morally indefensible, forced confessions are very seldom reliable and too often lead to other miscarriages of justice.

That such activities have been carried out by CIA operatives is not surprising for that particular branch of the U.S. government has been violating U.S. and International law for many decades!!! They have been particularly 'out of control' since the arch-criminals Bush/Cheney stole the 2000 & 2004 elections. I hate to have to admit it but my country deserves the wrath of most of the other countries worldwide; particularly those with some natural resources that our CIA-assisted Corporations could buy or steal.

There is no real defense or excuse for what America has become. Most U.S. citizens are completely unaware of the atrocities that have been committed by our government...but that is not an adequate defense or explanation. (Most of the German population prior to WWII were 'unaware' of the pending horrors committed by Hitler's fascist state.) Most of us just believed what the media kept repeating: that everything was okay, the Cold War was won, the economy was booming, so just enjoy life---watch the never-ending variety of sporting contests, sit-coms, variety shows, 'reality' shows, celebrity gossip & adventures...ad nauseum! AND THEN WE ALL GOT RAPED BY OUR OWN GOVERNMENT!

I think most of my fellow countrymen & women still don't realize it. They get no real news over there! All of the main stream media is now corporate owned and all are benefitting from a continuation of resources (mainly oil) exploitation and constant state of WAR! The American people have been so "dumbed-down" by the media and so divided over moral issues (abortion, gay rights, school prayers, etc.) that they are just beginning to realize that "we the people" no longer control anything. The farcical election now going on is not going to change much; both major political parties have been bought by the corporations so it won't matter very much whether the next President is a Democrat or another repugnant Republican!

Needless to say, I'm pretty pessimistic for my country for the next 4-10 years. But, I think some serious change in direction is beginning to stir (thanks to a few independent news outlets and access to the Internet). If the world is lucky the right-wing maniacs (Muslim or Christian) will not blow us all up and we can proceed with people issues like global warming, education, health care, food & shelter, civil rights, legal equalities, and so forth.

Chok dee to all!!!

[Jai Dee]

Some off-topic flames and replies have been deleted from this thread.

Please keep the discussions civil thank you.

[fsuthai]

Ahhh! I see we have another naive pinhead posting here:D Let me clue you in buckwheat, the U.S. Constitution governs U.S. citizens and legal immigrants on U.S. soil, now just what part of this picture don't you get my simple minded friend? Torture or any sort of duress is illegal in the U.S., thats why these slugs are interrogated at GITMO and elsewhere outside of the USA. What goes on at GITMO and any other U.S. interrogation facilities around the world is childs play compared to the way the Chinese and Russian governments routinely treat their own people on their own soil, not to mention the way the mexican government treats the indians in chiapas and situations similiar to that in S.America, Africa, the middle east, ect. ect., you get the picture now! Bin laden and his slugs brought the fight to the U.S. (a very big mistake on his part)

A big mistake? Bin Laden was a relative nobody before he did that. Now he's every extremist's guiding light. I'd say from his view it was pretty successful. And then the US response made it even MORE of a success. (Blindly lashing out at a Middle Eastern dictator that Bin Laden dispises about as much as Mr Bush does.)

See, the trouble with many people is that they completely lack the ability to see things from their opponents perspective. It's the old saying "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer".

I knew Bush would completely embarrass himself and his nation about 30 minutes after the towers fell, when he said something like 'These cowardly acts'... Okay.. call it murderous, call it anything, but 'cowardly' shows that you have no concept of what just happened: 20 or so young men giving their lives for their cause, and managing to strike the ultimate power in the world in such a way that it still resonates 7 years after. They managed nothing short of a 'Pearl Harbour', and with very limited means but the willingness to give one's life.

Again, it's murderous terrorism, but I honestly can't call it cowardice. Bush didn't get that then, and thousands of dead US soldiers later, he still doesn't get it now.

I see we have another apologist for the radical islamic terrorists If you have a difficult problem calling the acts of terrorisim that occured on 9/11 cowardice, then it clearly shows where your alignment is. When a terrorist travels to a foriegn country with the sole purpose of murdering over 3000 innocent civilians (many of whom were not even Americans and many of whom were indeed muslim) then yes that is the very definition of cowardice. If these "young men" as you put it, were fighting an occupying force on their own soil then your point might have some validity, but the acts of 9/11 were nothing short of cowardice and to try to rationalize these acts and be an apologist for these scumbags is really sick, and if there is such a thing as karma then you have a healthy dose of negative karma coming your way. These "young men" were extended the opportunity to come to America and trained to fly those aircraft in America, because the U.S.A. is a place that opens it arms to people from all over the world to better themselves and their families lives, and then to take advantage of the hospitality and the opportunities that they were afforded in America and carry out such dispicable acts is indeed the very definition of cowardice (kind of like inviting a homeless individual into your house, and then having him stab you in the back when your sleeping). America is not just a nation of entitled people that just all of a sudden popped up on the scene, America is melting pot of driven, hard working people from all over the world that sought out a place where they would not only have an opportunity to make a better life for themselves and their children, but also a place where they would have freedoms that are denied in most other countries. It is truely sad that you feel the need to rationalize the pathetic actions of these terrorists!

What a pile of crap, Vic! If you really believe such a fairy tale about 'the land of the free, the home of the brave', then you are worse off than the average American high school civics class graduate. Like most 'civilized' countries in the world, America was stolen from less sophisticated (as in greedy, rapacious, cunning) and poorer armed inhabitants. It was enlarged by conquest, exploitation, deceit, and other unfortunate traits that seem to be the dark side of human nature. Unfortunately, the strongest, most corrupt & most cruel, usually win! No disrespect intended towards Thailand's great King, but "Royalty" today are just the offspring of the ones that out-fought or out-witted their rivals a long time ago.

As for being a 'melting pot', you're right. [Please note that "your" is not the same as "you're".] However, America is composed of many races because our early robber barons, northern industrial tycoons and southern plantation owners needed laborers (improrished 'huddled masses', slaves & coolies). It was pretty open to immigrants from any place early on and many have thrived because of our freedoms gained by the insight of our founding fathers that resulted in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. I'm not "knocking" America...it was a great country...at several brief periods of history past! The original inhabitants were much better 'custodians' of the land but our mainly European forebears did a rather remarkable job and made many positive influences throughout the world. But, Saints they were not and, since gaining a lot of international influence by helping to win WWII, American foreign policy has been typically dictated by self-interest, greed, manipulation, and/or coercion. Our foreign policy has been a disaster for far too many of the world's inhabitants and has moved us from "most favored" to "most feared" nation in the world.

I'm no "apologist for radical islamic terrorists" but when the FACTS about 9/11 come out (and they will, eventually) I think you will regret your comments above. The attacks on the WTC were acts of terror but, more importantly, they were acts of treason. I know, I know...most of you will shake your heads and just mutter that I'm just another crazy '9/11 truther'. The sheer enormity of the crime makes it extremely hard to believe but the attacks on America on September 11, 2001 were an INSIDE JOB. The 9/11 Commission Report was another 'whitewash & cover-up' that is full of unexplained coincidences, witness exclusions, official testimonies that have since been shown to be lies, crucial investigation aspects that were not performed or even considered "for reasons of national security", and praised as the "full, true story" by the perpetrators of the heinous crime...the CIA and the Executive Branch of the U.S. Government. It is almost a given that certain members of our Congress and Chiefs of Staff had to be involved also.

I didn't believe it at first either, but I did accept the challenge to examine some of the online 9/11 postings questioning the 'official version'. I started with AE911Truth.com and read why nearly 200 highly regarded and professionally trained architects and engineers (from many countries but mostly the U.S.) are completely convinced that the collapse of the Twin Towers and Bldg. #7 were caused by controlled demolition charges, not the impact of the fuel laden commercial airliners. Further, that a host of demolition experts agree with them, that a slew of commercial pilots have gone on record to say there is "no way" that the single-engine, partially trained Muslim pilots could have flown those commercial multi-engine jets so accurately into their targets (and that five of those Muslims took free english courses at U.S. military bases in America because their english was so bad), that the recorded flight paths of the highjacked jets could only have been accomplished by experienced commercial pilots or ground-controlled automatic piloting, that the White House "Situation Room" (where Chaney just happened to be that morning) has such technology and that Chaney issued a direct "Stand Down" order to the Commander of the North American Air Defense Command when he wanted to scramble fighter jets at the first reports of multiple hijackings, that most of the fighters of the NAADC had been sent to Canada & Alaska to participate in 'mock' war games that morning, that 3-4 other 'mock attack' exercises were scheduled for that morning, involving one by CIA operatives that might fake an attack on NYC skyscrapers by a commercial airliner, that a FEMA group had set up operations in WTC #7 to practice 'emergency disaster procedures' in case of terrorist attack on civilian skyscrapers but all of their records of that 9/11 morning were destroyed when bldg. #7 'just fell down' many hours later & the FEMA staff (& then-mayor Guiliani's crew) had evacuated the building...and on, and on, and on. There is so much more that I won't 'bore' you readers with but nearly all of the only 911 blogger sites have links to others---but don't go there if you can't handle the truth!

If any of you think it just too incomprehensible to believe that the American government could attack it's own citizens, fine---just bury your heads in the sand (but you'd better cover your derriers also). Read the excellent book by Naomi Kline, The Shock Doctrine. It's like a blueprint of Fascist state building. Create an enemy (Muslim extremists), cause a major shock to the country (they don't get any bigger than 9/11, yet), then, while everyone is confused, afraid, shocked -- take control of the country; with Homeland Security (our own Gestapo), the Patriot Act ('authorization' for violations of laws & civil rights/liberties), kidnappings (some in foreign countries), renditions, suspend habeas corpus, torture, keep everyone off balance by starting wars (Afghanistan & Iraq), warrantless spying on anyone, arrest of anyone deemed "an enemy combatant" without proof or appeal, drain the treasury, borrow billions more---hey, beginning to have some doubts about the new Fascist United States of America????

There are so many unexplained contradictions to the official version of what happened that it will amaze and astound you. I still love my country and fervently hope that it will somehow change course and return to what it CAN be, a leader of nations fighting for the benefit of our planet and humanity. Tackling issues like global warming, hunger, disease, education, health care, and human rights abuses worldwide. But, most corporations make more money out of war than peace and, right now, they OWN America. Our distracted & stupified electorate is still buying into the fake election being controlled by the corporate controlled media; TV, newspapers, and radio. But, unlike Bush/Chaney, we Americans are not all bad people. Most of the people want to end the wars and change our country's course but I just don't think they realize how bad the situation has become. I'm almost 71 now and not likely to see any real changes but I do hope for the future. Right now I can only apologize to the world...and hope my country can shed it shackles!

Chok dee to us all...

And for all of you "my country right or wrong"(ers) out there, just remember that true patriots question authority, slaves obey!

[Jai Dee]

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