Why Is The รวจ In ตำรวจ A Low Tone?

[kokesaat]

Am I missing a rule that makes the รวจ in คำรวจ a low tone or is it just an exception to the rule? Seems to me it should be a falling tone.

[aanon]

Am I missing a rule that makes the รวจ in คำรวจ a low tone or is it just an exception to the rule? Seems to me it should be a falling tone.

your intuition is right, if รวจ were written as such, is should be read with a falling tone (just like รวด, as in รวดเร็ว).

what's happening is the class of the consonant before (the ต) is 'taking over' and determining the tone instead of the ร. that's how you arrive at a low tone. another example (there are many) is the word สมัก (join, enlist, apply). it's not read as สะ-มัก (low-high), but as สะ-หมัก (low-low).

here are some others you can try to work out:

ถนอม

ถนัด

ถนน

สนอง

สนิท

สนุก

however, there are words where the class of the leading consonant does not affect the tone of the next syllable. สมาคม, สภา and many others.

eventually it comes down to familiarity with the sounds of the language, and either knowing or being able to correctly guess the right tone in most cases. a good thai-thai or thai-english dictionary should display the pronunciation too.

all the best.

Edited January 18, 2008 by aanon

[Jay_Jay]

These words that have a Consonant + ำ + ending are from a structure found in Cambodian -

ตรวจ ตำรวจ

ปรุง บำรุง

แสดง สำแดง

เดิน ดำเนิน

ชาญ ชำนาญ

etc.

In Thai, you find the resulting word is a noun that represents some implementation of the verb of the base word.

It was originally a nasalization of the base word, meaning that the original throat position / tone was kept.

General rule of thumb - pronounce the second half of the word as though it was directly attached to the first syllable without the 'ำ'

[aanon]

These words that have a Consonant + ำ + ending are from a structure found in Cambodian -

ตรวจ ตำรวจ

ปรุง บำรุง

แสดง สำแดง

เดิน ดำเนิน

ชาญ ชำนาญ

etc.

In Thai, you find the resulting word is a noun that represents some implementation of the verb of the base word.

It was originally a nasalization of the base word, meaning that the original throat position / tone was kept.

General rule of thumb - pronounce the second half of the word as though it was directly attached to the first syllable without the 'ำ'

good point jay_jay. i didn't know about the khmer link. just to add a little more to what you said (i know, it's off thread), the resulting word is normally a more formal one, with a meaning related to the original verb. often, as in your examples, it remains a verb. for example แสดง (to show) สำแดง (to declare [to customs]). เดิน (to walk) ดำเนิน (to proceed [with a court case]).

all the best.

[tgeezer]

Am I missing a rule that makes the รวจ in คำรวจ a low tone or is it just an exception to the rule? Seems to me it should be a falling tone.

That has made me think, I have never noticed that; it must be an exception some obscure thing as mentioned Kymer etc. If you look on the same page in the dictionary you see ตำพรวด with tone as per rules. I guess you know the rules for อัการนำ making สภา = สะ พา

Edited January 18, 2008 by tgeezer

[kokesaat]

your intuition is right, if รวจ were written as such, is should be read with a falling tone (just like รวด, as in รวดเร็ว).

what's happening is the class of the consonant before (the ต) is 'taking over' and determining the tone instead of the ร. that's how you arrive at a low tone. another example (there are many) is the word สมัก (join, enlist, apply). it's not read as สะ-มัก (low-high), but as สะ-หมัก (low-low).

here are some others you can try to work out:

ถนอม

ถนัด

ถนน

สนอง

สนิท

สนุก

however, there are words where the class of the leading consonant does not affect the tone of the next syllable. สมาคม, สภา and many others.

eventually it comes down to familiarity with the sounds of the language, and either knowing or being able to correctly guess the right tone in most cases. a good thai-thai or thai-english dictionary should display the pronunciation too.

I can mostly figure out the second syllable when the first begins with a high class consonant (ถนัด for example). What threw me for a loop on ตำรวจ was the fact that the first consonant is a middle class consonant. Since I had nothing better to do this evening, I browsed my middle class consonants in the dictionary under the ำ column. Here's what I found: the second syllable in กำราบ จำรัส ดำรัส ตำรวจ ตำรับ บำราบ and อำมาตย์ are all low tone, but the second syllable in จำพวก and บำสาศ follow regular tone rules. Since it seems I've got no choice but to play a guessing game, here's the rule I'll follow:

if first syllable begins with a middle consonant and ำ and is followed by a second syllable that begins with ร with a short/long vowel and dead syllable (and no tone marking), the second syllable will 'most likely' be a low tone.

It may not be a very academic way of trying to remember it, but that's what happens when you've spent 26 years of your life in a rule-oriented career (military)

Thanks for everyone's responses

[Richard W]

That has made me think, I have never noticed that; it must be an exception some obscure thing as mentioned Kymer etc.

In Khmer it's called 'vowel governance'. (Linguists give it the fancy name of 'rightward register spreading'.) There the basic rule is that in words of two syllables, if the first syllable starts with an oral stop or fricative and the second doesn't (i.e. starts with a resonant), then the consonant of the first syllable determines the 'register' of the second syllable. In Modern Khmer, 'register' manifests in the quality of the vowel, but in Thai the effect is on the effective class of the consonant as far as the tone rules are concerned.

The rule also appears in Mon (which is related to Khmer) and in Cham, which is related to Malay.

For Thai the effects are almost entirely limited to when the first of the two syllables has the implicit 'a' vowel or sara am. The major exception is initial ประ, as in ประวัติ [M]pra[L]wat. There are few clear rules, just tendencies. Two rules that I can't find any exception to are:

• It does not apply if the second syllable starts with a stop or fricative, e.g. เฉพาะ [M]cha[HS]phaw.
  
• Except when the previous rule applies, it applies if the first symbol of the vowel of the second syllable preceeds the first syllable, e.g. โสร่ง [M]sa[L]roong
  

There is a tendency for the rule not to apply in words of Sanskrit or Pali origin, though it does tend to apply in well-established words of two syllables. I think the rule never applies with the negative prefix อ-.

Note that it doesn't just affect the second syllable of the word, e.g. กฤษณา [L]krit[M]sa[R]naa.

[tgeezer]

That has made me think, I have never noticed that; it must be an exception some obscure thing as mentioned Kymer etc.

In Khmer it's called 'vowel governance'. (Linguists give it the fancy name of 'rightward register spreading'.) There the basic rule is that in words of two syllables, if the first syllable starts with an oral stop or fricative and the second doesn't (i.e. starts with a resonant), then the consonant of the first syllable determines the 'register' of the second syllable. In Modern Khmer, 'register' manifests in the quality of the vowel, but in Thai the effect is on the effective class of the consonant as far as the tone rules are concerned.

The rule also appears in Mon (which is related to Khmer) and in Cham, which is related to Malay.

For Thai the effects are almost entirely limited to when the first of the two syllables has the implicit 'a' vowel or sara am. The major exception is initial ประ, as in ประวัติ [M]pra[L]wat. There are few clear rules, just tendencies. Two rules that I can't find any exception to are:

• It does not apply if the second syllable starts with a stop or fricative, e.g. เฉพาะ [M]cha[HS]phaw.
  
• Except when the previous rule applies, it applies if the first symbol of the vowel of the second syllable preceeds the first syllable, e.g. โสร่ง [M]sa[L]roong
  

There is a tendency for the rule not to apply in words of Sanskrit or Pali origin, though it does tend to apply in well-established words of two syllables. I think the rule never applies with the negative prefix อ-.

Note that it doesn't just affect the second syllable of the word, e.g. กฤษณา [L]krit[M]sa[R]naa.

We have gone slightly off topic so;...

Fourteen low class consonents can be paired with a high class consonent according to their sound, there are seven groups; Kh,ch,Th,W,F,S, and H. These low class consonents are called 'pair' the remainder are called 'lone' When two consonents begin a word the first is called 'lead' if it is sounded or both are called 'combined' if they are to be merged. This post refers to 'lead'(nam). The first sylable is a half tone (gung siang) 'a' the second sylable takes the tone of the first if it is a lone consonent, and follows its own rule if it is a pair consonent. When you look in the dictionary this is taken into account, Chapro is ch pro (เฉพราะ)because W is a pair, Sapa same. samak - M is a 'lone' so it follows the rule for the lead letter. When H is a lead it is a 'lead' but not sounded but just to govern the low class consonent which follows which is a 'lone'. You should (never say never) never see a 'pair' following 'H' because there is no point. You may wonder why I am writing this because it does not help, well, etymology is a dangerous way to go as the posts indicate we already know the words, why they don't follow the rules is because they have probably been corrupted and accepted.

I was going to put the Thai in brackets but since I don't expect anybody to have got to the end I didn't bother.

On what I think a more interesting note and following the สมัคร word, the dictionary shows สมัค also, this has been the case for ages so next time when walking down the road take note of how many times you see each version. I suspect people don't want it to be too simple because I don't think I have ever seen สมัค it in a shop window.

Oh dear, I have just looked in my dictionary and it points out the pronunciation as สะ-หมัก which follows the rules so there is no need to point it out! I was hoping that there would be some consistency in the dictionary since it shows ตำรวจ as -หรวด NB. I have not found a way of putting a dot under the ห .

I guess you should never say never, and who to ask? My teacher let me write two mistakes ( she got teacher of the year at her school) how many sylables in พฤหัสบดี I wrote; พะ-รึ-หัด-สะ-โบะ-ดี = ๖ it is in fact พรึ-หัด-สะ-บอ-ดี = ๕ again I can not put a dot under the พ

[Rikker]

Typing with the Kedmanee keybord layout, the dot (พินทุ) is shift+b.

And if you check the Royal Institute Dictionary it gives พะรึหัดสะบอดี as an alternate pronunciation. The one your teacher taught is the "traditional" pronunciation (though I don't often hear anyone say it that way, in my experience).

Edited January 19, 2008 by Rikker

[tgeezer]

Typing with the Kedmanee keybord layout, the dot (พินทุ) is shift+b.

And if you check the Royal Institute Dictionary it gives พะรึหัดสะบอดี as an alternate pronunciation. The one your teacher taught is the "traditional" pronunciation (though I don't often hear anyone say it that way, in my experience).

หฺ Great, thank's I seem to have that keyboard. My dictionary, I haven't splashed on a RID which sounds pricey, says พฺรึ but I challenge anyone to tell the difference พะรึ you can 'smudge it', it says in the pronunciation section of the dictionary that they use อะ but it is said กึ่งเสียง . it was the บอ rather than a short vowel like เอาะ or โอะ you shouldn't 'smudge' ออ I am surprised that RID haven't accepted พฺรึ the half อะ is going out of fashion. My dictionary is 20 years old and says มะ-กะ-รา- for มกราคม I am told, not by teach naturally, that something like มก-กรา-คม is an accepted alternative, I don't know how you would write it; mine doesn't work.

[Richard W]

Fourteen low class consonents can be paired with a high class consonent according to their sound, there are seven groups; Kh,ch,Th,W,F,S, and H. These low class consonents are called 'pair' the remainder are called 'lone' When two consonents begin a word the first is called 'lead' if it is sounded or both are called 'combined' if they are to be merged. This post refers to 'lead'(nam). The first sylable is a half tone (gung siang) 'a' the second sylable takes the tone of the first if it is a lone consonent, and follows its own rule if it is a pair consonent.

The rule also applies to middle consonants, as in อร่อย [M]a[LL]rawi and ตนุ [M]ta[L]nu 'green turtle', and, with sara am, the original example ตำรวจ. It is therefore more useful to categorise the initial consonant as representing a stop or fricative.

[Jay_Jay]

I'm enjoying this thread

[tgeezer]

Fourteen low class consonents can be paired with a high class consonent according to their sound, there are seven groups; Kh,ch,Th,W,F,S, and H. These low class consonents are called 'pair' the remainder are called 'lone' When two consonents begin a word the first is called 'lead' if it is sounded or both are called 'combined' if they are to be merged. This post refers to 'lead'(nam). The first sylable is a half tone (gung siang) 'a' the second sylable takes the tone of the first if it is a lone consonent, and follows its own rule if it is a pair consonent.

The rule also applies to middle consonants, as in อร่อย [M]a[LL]rawi and ตนุ [M]ta[L]nu 'green turtle', and, with sara am, the original example ตำรวจ. It is therefore more useful to categorise the initial consonant as representing a stop or fricative.

That is true, however I was answering a post which compared or used 'ส' as 'lead' consonent as an example why ตำรวจ is said the way it is. I have only finished the fourth year and as I said 'never say never' อำ may be in the following books. Interesting; we are having this conversation in a language which uses the term 'as a rule'! I have never heard of a 'fricative' so looked it up, I am guessing it is อักษรเป็น which I have heard of but as yet I have not come across.

Edited January 20, 2008 by tgeezer

[Rikker]

A fricative is a type of consonant sound. Richard is referring to the notion in linguistics of manner of articulation, which characterizes how air travels in the nose/mouth to create various sounds. See also place of articulation.

A stop is created by stopping the air in the mouth and then suddenly releasing it (which is why it's also called a "plosive"). Examples: p, b, t, d, k, g.

A fricative is created by creating by forcing air through a narrow channel (think "friction"). Examples: f, v, s, h.

A nasal is a different kind of stop, in which the flow of air through the mouth is completely blocked, and forced to flow through the nose instead. Examples: m, n, ng.

(There are more of these, happy to explain if desired...)

There are also ways of grouping different sounds based on one characteristic or another. Perhaps most often referred to is the sonorant/obstruent dichotomy.

This is related to the concept of 'live' and 'dead' syllables (คำเป็น คำตาย) in Thai, which is a dichotomy based on the syllable coda (final sound). Syllables which end in a sonorant are 'live'; those which end in an obstruent are 'dead'. To explain in a bit more detail, 'live' words end in a long vowel (ตา), a diphthong (ตาย) or a nasal (ตำ); 'dead' words end in short vowel (ตะ) or a stop (ตก ตบ ตด). (Of course, the short vowel final is actually another kind of stop, a glottal stop.)

Edited January 20, 2008 by Rikker

[MART]

Oh my God, this thread is way too complicated for me! I realise how far I am from speaking Thai and which amount of efforts I still have to put in by reading such a thread. Makes me kind of hopeless... Congratulations folks, you do seem to know your stuff!

[DavidHouston]

Oh my God, this thread is way too complicated for me! I realise how far I am from speaking Thai and which amount of efforts I still have to put in by reading such a thread. Makes me kind of hopeless... Congratulations folks, you do seem to know your stuff!

Reminds me of the story where a British couple travels to France and the wife turns to her husband and says, "Look, dear, even the children here speak French!"

Please don't be dismayed by the academic complexities of Linguistics; Linguistics has almost nothing to do with learning a language. Why, believe it or not, there are millions of Thai children who speak, read, understand, and write Thai while knowing nothing of fricatives or glottal stops. Even the higher language skills of translation, poetry, and humor can be mastered without understanding the first thing about the history and origins of the Thai language.

My advice to you? Learn the language, be gregarious with Thai people, travel all over the country, eat all kinds of regional Thai food, and have a great time.

[meadish_sweetball]

Oh my God, this thread is way too complicated for me! I realise how far I am from speaking Thai and which amount of efforts I still have to put in by reading such a thread. Makes me kind of hopeless... Congratulations folks, you do seem to know your stuff!

Agree with David; you don't need to learn all of this, or even 5% of it, to learn to speak Thai, unless you want in-depth explanations for everything you learn, and enjoy discussions such as these. Phonetics may sound complicated but really aren't, it's just a matter of describing what we do when speaking anyway, without thinking about it.

[MART]

Oh my God, this thread is way too complicated for me! I realise how far I am from speaking Thai and which amount of efforts I still have to put in by reading such a thread. Makes me kind of hopeless... Congratulations folks, you do seem to know your stuff!

Reminds me of the story where a British couple travels to France and the wife turns to her husband and says, "Look, dear, even the children here speak French!"

Nice anecdote. Kind of reminds me of an old Alsatian lady who once stated that "there are way too many foreigners in the world!"

My advice to you? Learn the language, be gregarious with Thai people, travel all over the country, eat all kinds of regional Thai food, and have a great time.

I certainly will.

[GlennSlayden]

Fourteen low class consonants can be paired with a high class consonant according to their sound, there are seven groups; Kh,ch,Th,W,F,S, and H. These low class consonents are called 'pair' the remainder are called 'lone' When two consonants begin a word the first is called 'lead' if it is sounded or both are called 'combined' if they are to be merged. This post refers to 'lead'(nam). The first sylable is a half tone (gung siang) 'a' the second sylable takes the tone of the first if it is a lone consonant, and follows its own rule if it is a pair consonant.

Could you please explain more about these seven groups? In particular, are you suggesting that there are rules governing which of the 24 low consonants are allowed to form false clusters?

Thanks,

Glenn

[tgeezer]

Fourteen low class consonants can be paired with a high class consonant according to their sound, there are seven groups; Kh,ch,Th,W,F,S, and H. These low class consonents are called 'pair' the remainder are called 'lone' When two consonants begin a word the first is called 'lead' if it is sounded or both are called 'combined' if they are to be merged. This post refers to 'lead'(nam). The first sylable is a half tone (gung siang) 'a' the second sylable takes the tone of the first if it is a lone consonant, and follows its own rule if it is a pair consonant.

Could you please explain more about these seven groups? In particular, are you suggesting that there are rules governing which of the 24 low consonants are allowed to form false clusters?

Thanks,

Glenn

Oh I am sorry, I seem to have put 'W' in there I meant 'P' the English sound. The seven sounds, not groups, are all high consonents. Two Kh, one of them redundant, no better to look at 's' there are three of them sharing the sound, ศ,ษ, & ส the pair to these is ซ only one letter. if you look at ฐ & ถ you can see that they have ฒ,ฑ,ท,ธ, that's four 'pair' letter to one sound, and by happpy coincidence there are 14 low class consonents called 'pair'. Well what is the use of knowing that, I hear you ask, well apart from knowing that สภา is said low, common, because ภ is a pair the answer is 'not a lot ' because most people know that already from familiarity. Maybe it may be useful later. I like puzzles and learning this in order to forget it is fun for me. As to explaining why 'dog means dog' well, we can only guess I guess. On the original 'dog means dog' question; I was told that ตำรวจ is the way it is because it comes from ตรวต !'*" 'Clusters' are not part of this as far as I know, the example is a 'lead' consonent not a cluster as it would be if pronounced 'spa'.

Edited January 22, 2008 by tgeezer

[meadish_sweetball]

if you look at ฐ & ถ you can see that they have ฒ,ฑ,ท,ธ, that's four 'pair' letter to one sound, and by happpy coincidence there are 14 low class consonents called 'pair'.

I don't understand how this relation is significant, and how it relates to the transfer of tones from one syllable to another. Is there any chance you could clarify?

Sorry if I am being slow here, but I've read your post 6 times now and still do not understand what you are trying to say. Please dumb it down for me a little.

[Richard W]

if you look at ฐ & ถ you can see that they have ฒ,ฑ,ท,ธ, that's four 'pair' letter to one sound, and by happpy coincidence there are 14 low class consonents called 'pair'.

I don't understand how this relation is significant, and how it relates to the transfer of tones from one syllable to another. Is there any chance you could clarify?

I'm sure that tgeezer was merely introducing some terminology in order to say that the first consonant of an impure cluster only affects the tone of the following syllable if the following syllable starts with a resonant (equivalently, does not start with a stop or a fricative). I've left out the cases of silent ho nam and o nam - historically the clusters are actually pure clusters.

Does สภา actually contain an impure cluster? Does พนม? (Cf. Khmer 'Phnom Penh') Does นกร?

[tgeezer]

if you look at ฐ & ถ you can see that they have ฒ,ฑ,ท,ธ, that's four 'pair' letter to one sound, and by happpy coincidence there are 14 low class consonents called 'pair'.

I don't understand how this relation is significant, and how it relates to the transfer of tones from one syllable to another. Is there any chance you could clarify?

I'm sure that tgeezer was merely introducing some terminology in order to say that the first consonant of an impure cluster only affects the tone of the following syllable if the following syllable starts with a resonant (equivalently, does not start with a stop or a fricative). I've left out the cases of silent ho nam and o nam - historically the clusters are actually pure clusters.

Does สภา actually contain an impure cluster? Does พนม? (Cf. Khmer 'Phnom Penh') Does นกร?

I think the problem is that you are using translations which I am not familiar with I am guessing when I say a cluster is what in Thai is called an อักษรควบ they are divided into two grou

[tgeezer]

if you look at ฐ & ถ you can see that they have ฒ,ฑ,ท,ธ, that's four 'pair' letter to one sound, and by happpy coincidence there are 14 low class consonents called 'pair'.

I don't understand how this relation is significant, and how it relates to the transfer of tones from one syllable to another. Is there any chance you could clarify?

I'm sure that tgeezer was merely introducing some terminology in order to say that the first consonant of an impure cluster only affects the tone of the following syllable if the following syllable starts with a resonant (equivalently, does not start with a stop or a fricative). I've left out the cases of silent ho nam and o nam - historically the clusters are actually pure clusters.

Does สภา actually contain an impure cluster? Does พนม? (Cf. Khmer 'Phnom Penh') Does นกร?

I think the problem is that you are using translations which I am not familiar with I am guessing when I say a cluster is what in Thai is called an อักษรควบ they are divided into two grou

Something went wrong with the post, Sorry I see what the problem is now; my books are in Thai for kids and your books are in English for linguists and seems to catagorise differently, and has conventions which apply to all languages. I bet not all Thai books are the same either, so unless everyone has the same book it is difficult to explain much.