Bangkok Traffic

[Darth Bangkok]

Just interested to know what people's opinions are as to why there is so much traffic here. Personally, I think it is a lack of roads, not an abundance of cars. I can expand on that if anyone wants, but I won't bore anyone just yet.

And when I read the "solutions" proposed by the authorities, they seem, to me, to be ill conceived at best. For instance, these new bus lanes that are being proposed. They will buy expensive new buses with doors on the right side and build bus stops on traffic islands to make an express lane for these buses (the third lane of traffic presumably). Won't that take away 1/3 of lane capacity precisely in areas where it is needed the most? And existing bus lines would still be there. Those buses never limit themselves to just the first or even the first or second lanes. It seems to me that this will crowd the roads even more and make an almost impossible situation totally impossible.

I have a few ideas on ways to improve the buses (which I think the route system itself is excellent). But I won't prostelize (sp??) unless invited to.

[Up2U]

The title of this thread is

"Bangkok Traffic - what is the cause"

May I venture to suggest - cars? Trucks? Buses? Motor-bikes?

Well, that's my thousandth post out of the way - now let's look for something sensible to do.

[Up2U]

For instance, these new bus lanes that are being proposed. They will buy expensive new buses with doors on the right side and build bus stops on traffic islands to make an express lane for these buses (the third lane of traffic presumably).

So - you get on and off the bus at the central median.

Then run like crazy across three lanes of traffic to get to the sidewalk.

It should solve a part of the traffic problem - after six months there will be no passengers for buses, so they can be taken out of service.

But seriously, there is surely a good argument for working out a series of one-way routes, with coordinated traffic lights and so on.

And expansion of public transport - surcharges for private cars in the city centre, surcharges for single-passenger cars - differential rates for fuel between private and public vehicles (probably a refund to such businesses, rather than a direct price differential).

[yok yawng]

Symptom: Heavy Traffic

Cause: The traffic police

[jhj2000]

The idea of the bus stops in the middle of the road intrigues me. I suppose if it has taken too long to get where you want it is easy to get the bus back.

[shellman]

IMO: Too many cars for too little roads. The raod system in BKK just could never cope with the increase in vehicles. In addition - poorly managed traffic police units and bad management.

[PvtDick]

One of the biggest problems, in my opinion, is illegal parking. In effect, every Thai street's efficiency is reduced by one lane in each direction because of people who park in or otherwise block the curbside lane.

One of the best entrepreneurial ideas I ever came up with for Thailand was to start a private towing service. Think of how much money you could rack up in an evening towing away illegally parked cars and charging the owners an arm and a leg to get them back. The cops now mostly just clamp the cars, when they do anything, which doesn't help relieve the traffic problem.

Of course, you'd need pretty heavy connections to be able to set up such an enterprise. You'd probably also have to issue your truck drivers bulletproof vests.

[Darth Bangkok]

the traffic islands will supposedly have pedestrian bridges to get from the middle of the road to the sidewalks. more stairs!! how wonderful!!

I have been trying to find information on the subject, but I suck at research. in 2000 I read a report about bangkok traffic. It said that in most modern cities, the surface area of roads made up 23-24% of the total area of the city. In bangkok it is only 8%. And if you think about how much of that is deadend sois that are barely of use to the people who live on them, then you can realize how insufficient the roads are here. for evey lane of traffic in bangkok, there should be two more!

I would like to try to update this info, but I cannot find a good source regarding the road surface area of major cities (to compare). If anyone can help, let me know.

But think about it. Even in so called 'downtown' areas, there are stretches of 1, 2,3 kms between intersections. and for almost all of the way, the two sides of the road are separated by physical barriers. so someone leaving their house has to go out of their way (and spend more time in and create more traffic) either when going out or coming home.

people coming from or going to multiple destinations need to share the same road and create more congestion because of the one-way 'system' and the fact that physically, there is usually only one alternative.

I don't think the problem is too many cars. I don't know the number of cars in Bangkok. But if there are ten million people, I am sure there are not ten million cars. And Bangkok is spread out over such a HUGE area, it shouldn't even matter. In many western cities the ratio of cars to people is about 1 and there is no traffic problem like this. Traffic problems are when it takes 40 minutes instead of 25 to get home. LAst week, I sat on a bus in front of Jatujak Park waiting for the light at LAd PRao juction for 35 minutes without moving. I was about to take a leak right there on the bus when we started to move.

no, it is time for urban redevelopment. much of the unused land in bangkok that people cpmplain about should be turned into roads. sois should be connected to other sois. look at ramkhamhaeng road in bang kapi. all the sois are 1 - 2 km long, straight as an arrow and only about 50-100 apart, but they only connect at the main road. a few cross streets along the soi would allow local traffic to avoid the main road for at least part of the trip (say to connect to Sri Nakarin road).

the answer should be to open up the system for better flow, not build more overpasses and tunnels through intersections. it is like the veins in our own bodies. we need more than one in our legs , in our arms, etc. and when they get blocked up (carts using roads because they have no other options, motorcycles going the wrong way, people walking in the road because the sidewalk is so cluttered with vendors , etc.) we have a heart attack.

[splitlid]

One of the biggest problems, in my opinion, is illegal parking. In effect, every Thai street's efficiency is reduced by one lane in each direction because of people who park in or otherwise block the curbside lane.

One of the best entrepreneurial ideas I ever came up with for Thailand was to start a private towing service. Think of how much money you could rack up in an evening towing away illegally parked cars and charging the owners an arm and a leg to get them back. The cops now mostly just clamp the cars, when they do anything, which doesn't help relieve the traffic problem.

Of course, you'd need pretty heavy connections to be able to set up such an enterprise. You'd probably also have to issue your truck drivers bulletproof vests.

thats along with parking meters.

would really solve some of the problems.

could employ traffic wardens and everything.

would be able to finance the space project in one month by my estimation.

but again..you gotta know someone in the know

[Heng]

We need higher automobile taxes, ala Singapore. The cops still get to man their police boxes, the auto tycoons sell fewer cars at higher prices. Cleaner air, fewer cars on the road. Sorted.

That should move the masses towards public transportation.

[Goat Roper]

Don't forget letting the fuel prices float to market value.

[splitlid]

We need higher automobile taxes, ala Singapore. The cops still get to man their police boxes, the auto tycoons sell fewer cars at higher prices. Cleaner air, fewer cars on the road. Sorted.

That should move the masses towards public transportation.

ummmm...

think we should stick to solving bangkoks problems.

increasing car costs will effect the whole country.

so mr. joe wont be able to drive his ute to work in Korat if that happens.cos he cant afford one.

city tax is a better option.like they have in London.

[Heng]

Sounds good as well. It doesn't have to apply to the whole country. Only to areas where increased/improved public transport can handle the burden.

[stumonster]

Of course, you'd need pretty heavy connections to be able to set up such an enterprise. You'd probably also have to issue your truck drivers bulletproof vests.

yes, I am not sure if you could find a thai who was prepared to tow away one of the mercedes with the badge affixed to the grill.

but just syncronising some of the traffic lights might help with the problem.

[Heng]

Of course, you'd need pretty heavy connections to be able to set up such an enterprise.  You'd probably also have to issue your truck drivers bulletproof vests.

yes, I am not sure if you could find a thai who was prepared to tow away one of the mercedes with the badge affixed to the grill.

but just syncronising some of the traffic lights might help with the problem.

There are plenty of "nobody" cars that can be towed in Bangkok. Simple common sense as to who not to tow... all of these cars can be compiled in a database. Actually thought of starting such a company myself when I first got here 7 years ago. Decided on less stressful operations.

[KhunPadThai]

In most cities in developed countries, streets take up about 25% of the surface area. For example, in Manhattan streets are 28.2% of the area while in Tokyo's central wards it is 22.8%

In Bangkok, by contrast, the streets account for only 11% of the surface area. Moreover, population densities in central BKK compare to those of Manhattan and central Paris. Car ownership is rising. The traffic problem is further compounded by an insufficient network of distributor roads. Bangkok has simply not been designed for the automobile. The authorities are to be commended for developing public transportation such as the Skytrain and the new subway.

There is an excellent study of the traffic problem in Banfkok to be found here: http://www.agenda21.ee/english/transport/autodependence.pdf

entitled, "Automobile Dependence in Bangkok: An International Comparison with Implications for Planning Policies"

Khun Pad Thai

[penzman]

Just interested to know what people's opinions are as to why there is so much traffic here. Personally, I think it is a lack of roads, not an abundance of cars. I can expand on that if anyone wants, but I won't bore anyone just yet.

And when I read the "solutions" proposed by the authorities, they seem, to me, to be ill conceived at best. For instance, these new bus lanes that are being proposed. They will buy expensive new buses with doors on the right side and build bus stops on traffic islands to make an express lane for these buses (the third lane of traffic presumably). Won't that take away 1/3 of lane capacity precisely in areas where it is needed the most? And existing bus lines would still be there. Those buses never limit themselves to just the first or even the first or second lanes. It seems to me that this will crowd the roads even more and make an almost impossible situation totally impossible.

I have a few ideas on ways to improve the buses (which I think the route system itself is excellent). But I won't prostelize (sp??) unless invited to.

Buildings in the way???

[qwertyuiop]

but just syncronising some of the traffic lights might help with the problem.

My understanding is that the authorities did.

They brought in a UK company a few years back. system installed all working nicely. The Brits went home. A short time after chaos again. Brits came back fixed the system went away again. short time later chaos once more. Brits came back ....

Well you get the picture.

The problem was not in the synchronising of the lights but in preventing manual overide of the system by the traffic cops.

Could this be an urban legend or the truth?

Actually I have some sympathy with them.

The police do change traffic flow at different times during the day in order to ease the congestion and certainly help ensure that the rules of the road are obeyed.

My suggestion would be to improve the alternatives to road transport.

I sense an easing of the traffic congestion relative to prior to the opening of the skytrain and I do not think that this is just down to the Asian finacial crisis. Car sales hit a new high last year.

The skytrain and the subway do help but as the systems are somewaht limited their impact is not as great as it could have been if for instance the original sktrain plan had been put into effect.

With the government now planning to nationalise the BTS/MRTA and lower the ticket price a furhter improvement may be seen but a much bigger improvement in the traffic flow could be obtained with a bigger network and more "park& ride ' locations. I believe various plans are under discussion

For now it just seems too difficult and expensive for an average Thai to use the BTS/MRTA instead of the bus/car as first of all they have to come a fairways into town to actually have access to the system in the first palce

[griser]

My opinion on the traffic issues are this.

Get the police off the roads directing traffic put them instead giving out tickets to people causing gridlock and illegally parking. Make the tickets very substantial and make it stick.

New York City (Manhattan) was the worst spot in the U.S. for traffic jams until they instituted the Gridlock laws. Now traffic isnt nearly as bad as it once was.

Second, Put more WORKING automatic traffic lights up. Get some traffic flow experts in from overseas and make the lights help the flow not hinder it.

How many times have you guys sat at a light here for 5 mins or more? NO Traffic light should be that long....!

Also, someone should train BKK police officers NOT to hinder traffic by stopping cars in the middle of roads during peak times...COME ON!

I think just those items would improve the traffic in a significant manner and at a VERY cheap pricetag.

Greg

[baht&sold]

For the 'here and now':

Get policeman out of the box and post them at every bus stop to STOP busses from stopping 2 (and 3!) side by side at whim, whenever a potential passenger raises their hand and the bus can't/won't wait to pull up behind the other busses in a single row .

This constantly cuts the flow of general traffic, constipating the whole inner city network.

Same goes for the toll way at peak hours. Try heading to Hua Hin on a friday afternoon from Petchuburi rd, via the toll/expressway. The first 45 mins of your trip will be spent waiting for busses and other's to squeeze into the Bang Na turnout, at the last possible entry point, rather than queing. (I even had to wait for a muppet with a euro flag on his sedan) The result is total lane clogging and no throughfare to Rama bridge.

This scenario repeats all along the inner toll way and is avoidable IF people would queue (or are FORCED to). When I drive back home, I get vocal if I have to suffer selfish muppets. Here, I try to tune in the tunes and tune out the rest.

One positive note, i see more and more people actually leaving a space for potential right turner's in long lines of stopped traffic. That's cool.

Meantime, Whenever possible and then some, I take the subway or skytrain

[Padkapow Guy]

Cause of Bangkok traffic?

Blame it on America!

everything else is.

[pluto_manibo]

[350torana]

In my part of Bkk (Bang Kapi ) i think one of the main problems is traffic police themselves. Not sure if i am correct but they are able to change the lights inside thier police boxes. Turning right of Ramkahamaeng Rd, just after Carrefour, towards the Bang Kapi Mall is a nightmare at 5 or 6 in the evening. The funny thing is there is always a copper with his notepad waiting to bust someone who runs the red arrow

[Up2U]

The Singapore solution is similar to London's - tax the users of the central areas.

Done by scanners and little boxes in the front of the driver - you drive under the equipment (suspended high above the roads) and it either 'handshakes' with your little black box or photographs your registration plate.

Can have two or three levels of this, the further in to the centre one goes.

Higher fuel costs (with rebates on registered commercial vehicles) would help.

[Darth Bangkok]

yeah but where is the center of Bangkok? Its not Bang Kapi or the other places mentioned. The traffic here is all over.

The idea about the buses is right on. Bus drivers here are like taxi drivers in New York - Kamikazes. Part of the cause is that for some reason, taxis are allowed to pick up passengers at bus stops. This of course means that taxi drivers will actually park in bus stops. so some bus drivers have completely written off bus stops and jsut do whatever they want. If you watch buses from a pedestrian bridge, you will also notice that the never just drive out of a stop in the first lane (if they are in it) they will actually bully their way into the second or third lane even if the first lane is clear and they would have the opportunity to slowly merge (not that they need to even merge)

I read through that report mentioned above, but not in a lot of detail. I will try to print it out one of these days. But i think it still looks at only numbers and ignores some realities. Bangkok seems comparable to Paris in amount of road surface (but I've been to paris and can't see how this is true), but in Paris there is not this crazy U-turn system. One side of the street is not cut off from the other as if they are in two different countries. And they are counting sois in the road surface area. Most sois barely function and are dead ends. Think of Pratu Nam. it is a huge market. people buy textiles there and sell them all over the world. But look at the sois there. almost physically unpassable.

And think of this. Outside office buildings, which are built with only cars in mind (parking lots in every building, driveways in front but no walkways), outside gas stations, mouths of sois, etc. - you can't come out of these places and merge into traffic without taking up more than one lane. hence all the dudes with whistles. rush hours are nightmares.

the same is true at u-turns. most people need to go at least part way into all three lanes. some people can do it in two. motorcycles do it in one.

the police love to pick on motorcycle drivers too, but with out them, bangkok couldn't function.

[stroll]

IMO: Too many cars for too little roads. The raod system in BKK just could never cope with the increase in vehicles. In addition - poorly managed traffic police units and bad management.

Sounds just like London, and a similar system of zoning-toll should work here as well.

Another major cause for traffic congestion is:

PvtDick:

One of the biggest problems, in my opinion, is illegal parking. In effect, every Thai street's efficiency is reduced by one lane in each direction because of people who park in or otherwise block the curbside lane.

Press cars parked at busstops and in second lane on major roads into easily transportable cubes of scrap metal at location, towing would just cause further congestion.

Bus- and Taxi drivers have a public responsibility, and should be fined at double-rate for blocking several lanes while letting people on/off.

[Kan Win]

Traffic in Bangkok.

Some days it is like this:-

Yet another day or week later same place:-

Me think it is all "pot luck" when you go on the roads in Thailand.

Happy Driving.

P.S. Rama 9 Bridge

[britmaveric]

I'd have to say poor planning- that normally is the root cause of traffic congestion. Roads weren't developed for the amount of traffic running over them.

[Sel]

Summary of the Bangkok traffic problems

1. My understanding is that the Bangkok road network is based on the river and klong network. When road vehicles were introduced, klongs were filled and roads built over them in a lot of cases. People got to keep thier land and still remember how to get somewhere.

2. An international company was hired a decade or so a go to improve the traffic flow using computer technology. The traffic police were under the impression that there would be job losses so they frequently manually over-rode lights at intersections and vandalised electronics to throw a spanner in the works. Blamed the chaos on cockroachs shorting out the control boxes. One of the head traffic cops said something like, How can computers keep up with the human brain, blah, blah, blah. The company apparently continued to be payed over their contract life (maybe still going) but agreed to walk away.

3. Traffic cops duties before now, pritty much revolved around working the lights and sitting in their aircon boxes (apparently the idea and many of which were donated by uncle Chuwit) Now they have to meet thier daily/monthly quota of fines (of which they get a percentage depending on rank) and consequently have to create a bit more chaos by setting up random checkpoints. Unfortunately the random checkpoints are set up in areas where most violations occur (u-turn areas and confusing road design areas usually where you have to cross multiple lanes to enter a road) After all It's hot out there, dangerous and the the polution will kill you. Best do the job during peak times to hit the quota fast.

4. Unfortunately many of the newer traffic solutions have been designed by engineers that recieved their degrees from legoland. Overpass bridges built in the wrong lanes and specialy designed bottlenecks where 4 lanes merge into 3 or 2 seem common. Even the overhead highway where at least at one point traffic enters and merges on the fast lane.

5. The motorbike road rules are a bit of a nusiance. They seem to be able to get away with a lot. Not quite sure if it's true but my understanding is that motorbike drivers are never at fault in an accident. A friend of mine (car) was hit by a motorbike driving down her side of the road in the wrong direction and her insurance company paid. Maybe it's more of a cultural/economic thing where richer pays. Congregation of motorcycle taxis and the unpredictable nature of their diving rules around soi mouths causes people to slow dramatically when exiting main thoroughfares.

6. The practice of halting traffic for official motorcades is a major contribution that we turn a blind eye to. Traffic on overhead highways are even stopped when a motorcade passes undernieth. Unless your at the front of the line you don't see it, knocking it up to a red light or accident.

7. Deny responsibility in an accident is taken very seriously. Unless people have a camera on them and know the proceedure in an accident, then vehicles are left in place until a traffic cop arrives or the insurance man. A lot of traffic cops on the seen don't move the vehicles (law or lazy) Never even seen one attempt to direct traffic flow around an accident. When the insurance man arrives and takes the snaps then the vehicles are moved.

8. Driver education is very poor in Thailand. It appears to be not so uncommon to drive without a licence or any driver education. This is probably the main cause of solvable traffic problems in my view. Drivers here tend to drive in lah ah land. Forethought doesn't appear to be a necessary Thai driving trait. If drivers followed the rules and had skills that were a bit more predictable then traffic would flow a lot smoother. It seems like you lose more face when you overshoot a turn and do a u-turn then to stop in the middle of the road, reverse a little and then turn.

9. Placement of bus stops is bad. And driving standards of the drivers. The red buses are paid by the number of rounds they complete in their shift. The faster you drive then the more you'll make to feed your kids.

10. Narrow streets especially soi mouths. Proliferation in the amount of wide turning circle pick-ups doesn't even allow skillfull drivers the ability to turn into a soi when someone else is exiting.

11. Lack of street parking and carparks.

12. The dramatic increase in vehicles. And it is dramatic. I think I read something recently like several thousand new registrations a day in BKK.

so many more

[Knut Skaar]

Bad planning or NO planning from day one....

Rebuild the city!