Thai Junta Call It Quits, Vows No More Coups

[Lilawadee]

Do you really think Thai people think Samak, Yongyut, Chalerm have the Thai people's interests at heart?!

NO, i DON'T!! I think they're the absolute worst of the worst pests that have plagued Thai politics for up to 35 or so years. They're turds that won't flush. And you can add Banharn and Chavalit to that list as well.

The coup was absolutely necessary to stop a runaway dictator whose definition of democracy was, and is, simply to get the largest number of votes.

Interestingly, that is the better part of my definition too.

It's also interesting that you apparently appreciate a military coup, while it was that very coup & military show trial that resulted in the above turds floating to the top again. As for your worry about democracy, Thaksin never needed tanks & guns, and as for stifling the press & free debate, I need not point further than the new laws imposed by the military that are a LOT more restrictive and dangerous than what Thaksin ever did.

Sonthi's error was not having a team or well thought out plan post coup to run the country. Handing over power to Surayud was a big error, but hindsight is easy. He needed someone like Khun Anan instead.

Maybe Anan just didn't want to clean up the military's mess once again; leep in mind the man is now 75 years old. More likely though, remember Anand had a big fall-out with General Prem over how to handle the Islamic insurgency in the South. Prem likely wasn't comfortable putting him in charge. Anand, among other things such as introducing Islamic Law, recommended to allow Malay/Yawi as an additional official language in the Deep South. Prem's response was "We cannot accept that [proposal] as we are Thai. The country is Thai and the language is Thai. We have to be proud to be Thai and have the Thai language as the sole national language" Thaksin was actually favourable to Anand's recommendations. This may have been a contributing factor to the military coup. [source: The Nation

Checks and balances? No, Thaksin dissolves Parliament and promises those who vote for him they'll get served first. Debate policies in Parliament or on TV? No, never.

The first two are pretty much common practice and perfectly normal in democratic countries. I agree with the latter, I would have liked Thaksin to be more open to debate and interviews. This is hardly a reason to commit a military coup, however; politicians just have different styles.

TRT and PPP are not a grassroots movement that is going to see a substantial improvement in the poor's lives.

I agree. Once a real grass-roots person/party stands up, possibly like in Venezuela, watch the sh1t truly hit the fan.

As someone from Issan I was delighted to see Newin flexing his Issan muscles with the meeting of Issan PPP MPs last week, the PPP Bangkokians maybe quaking in their shoes a little; but to see this materialise into improvements in the lives of Issan people rather than merely be a vehicle for Thaksin to retain power requires an optimism I don't possess.

It's inevitable that there will be a break-up between the regional clans and the more urban-chinese technocrats in TRT/PPP. All the more proof the coup wasn't necessary, because it would have happened anyway to Thaksin/TRT just the same, possible when the economic outlook darkens.

[Lilawadee]

Can't edit my post above anymore, but wanted to add a source to my claim that stifling (press) freedom was nothing compared to the legislation & censorship enacted by the military government that followed.

This is not just my opinion, but also that of Human Rights Watch, an international organization fighting (among others) for basic freedoms, including freedom of expression.

Since the current government came to power after a September 2006 coup against Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, Thai authorities have been active in silencing cyber critics and dissidents. This is in stark contradiction to Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont’s pledges to create an atmosphere conducive to democratization and political reform.

"A major complaint about Thaksin was his muzzling of the media and willingness to limit free speech. The military-backed government promised a quick return to democracy, but it’s now attacking freedom of expression and political pluralism in ways that Thaksin never dared. Freedom of expression, including offering opinions on the internet, is an essential basis of any functioning democracy,” Adams said. “Blocking critical websites resembles the behavior of China and Vietnam. Is this the company that Thailand’s leaders want to keep?” "

Source: http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2007/05/23/thaila15996.htm

Now, I don't have high hopes of people like Samak cutting those laws in a hurry. It's a far too convenient tool for him, too.

[John K]

I don’t know if you have noticed but the internet has been faster in Thailand. I was told by a tech the reason for that is the number of websites being blocked is way down from when Thaksin was in office. Every page request has to be checked to the blocked list. The longer the blocked list, the longer it takes.

[Plus]

Hypothetical question. If the military had decided to stay out of politics, would the political dilemma of 2006 been resolved in the courts?

The answer is of course YES...

I don't believe you seriously think that TRT would have been punished for the fraud they commited in April 2006 elections? Or that Thaksin's personal legal challenges would have been addressed in courts - things like concealing control of Shin Corp through nominees or tax issues?

I don't think it would have been possible without the coup, and I don't think that "political dilemma of 2006" would have been resolved without addressing these issues.

[John K]

Hypothetical question. If the military had decided to stay out of politics, would the political dilemma of 2006 been resolved in the courts?

The answer is of course YES...

I don't believe you seriously think that TRT would have been punished for the fraud they commited in April 2006 elections? Or that Thaksin's personal legal challenges would have been addressed in courts - things like concealing control of Shin Corp through nominees or tax issues?

I don't think it would have been possible without the coup, and I don't think that "political dilemma of 2006" would have been resolved without addressing these issues.

I concur

[Lilawadee]

PPP calls for lifting of martial law in N Thailand

BANGKOK, Jan. 25 (Xinhua) -- Thailand's People Power Party (PPP), the biggest party in the parliament which was newly formed earlier this week, on Friday called for lifting martial law in tourist-destination provinces in the North.

Surapong Towichakchaikul, general secretary of the PPP, submitted his called through Parliament President Yongyuth Tiyapairat.

He said it would be too late to wait for the new government to lift the martial law because the delay could affect tourism in the northern provinces.

For example, Chiang Mai Province will have the annual flora festival next month but the martial law could scare tourists away, Surapong said.

Thailand was announced under martial law after the military coup on Sept. 19, 2006. After several times of law-lifting, more than 100 districts of a dozen provinces, most of them are in the North, are still under military control so far.

The new government is expected to be formed next month and the parliament will elect the prime minister next Monday. (Xinhua)

[younghusband]

Hypothetical question. If the military had decided to stay out of politics, would the political dilemma of 2006 been resolved in the courts?

The answer is of course YES...

I don't believe you seriously think that TRT would have been punished for the fraud they commited in April 2006 elections? Or that Thaksin's personal legal challenges would have been addressed in courts - things like concealing control of Shin Corp through nominees or tax issues?

I don't think it would have been possible without the coup, and I don't think that "political dilemma of 2006" would have been resolved without addressing these issues.

Some sense of perspective is called for here.Overall the coup was rotten for Thailand, and the damage it has done to the country's institutions is huge.The Thai political class knows it:the people of Thailand know it: international opinion knows it.But apparently the matter is still up for debate among some resident foreigners.

[Plus]

Nuh, someone just said that the emperor had no clothes. Thailand was stripped off democracy long before the coup, there was not much left to destroy.

So far no one but a couple of resident farangs offered any viable alternative to ousting Thaksin by force. Ok, a few lefties were outraged, too. Almost all 200 of them.

[Lilawadee]

I don't know if you have noticed but the internet has been faster in Thailand. I was told by a tech the reason for that is the number of websites being blocked is way down from when Thaksin was in office. Every page request has to be checked to the blocked list. The longer the blocked list, the longer it takes.

Sigh..

First of all, the list of blocked sites was a couple thousand during Thaksin, mostly porn and stuff related to the Southern insurgency. Under the military junta, this went up to over 10,000 sites, many of which with political content critical of the coup. (And can find the link if you're interested).

Secondly, blocking sites does not make the internet slow. Deciding where to route a host request, or deciding not to route it at all does not make a difference. In any case routers decide this in split seconds; compared to regular network response time that's negligible. Find a better tech.

[A_Traveller]

^ Incorrect. The list grew, yes, but predominantly in the porn classification {Class 6}. Oddly some sites/pages which one would expect to be placed in Class 9 {Unacceptable comments pertaining to the monarchy} were placed, for reasons which are not difficult to fathom, in Class 8 {subversion}. Further, after the passage of the 'Internet Law' expressly prohibiting proxies, these were also added to Class 8, there being no 'technical class' remaining after Class 7 was dropped, which would have been more suitable.

It is true to say that some sites deemed critical were added, but in realistic terms no more than under Thaksin. Of course, the additional pressure to self-censor, by such subtle techniques of withholding advertising from recalcitrant media ensured internal discussion was appropriately muted as well in the freedom loving days of TRT.

Regards

Edited January 28, 2008 by A_Traveller

[John K]

I don't know if you have noticed but the internet has been faster in Thailand. I was told by a tech the reason for that is the number of websites being blocked is way down from when Thaksin was in office. Every page request has to be checked to the blocked list. The longer the blocked list, the longer it takes.

Sigh..

First of all, the list of blocked sites was a couple thousand during Thaksin, mostly porn and stuff related to the Southern insurgency. Under the military junta, this went up to over 10,000 sites, many of which with political content critical of the coup. (And can find the link if you're interested).

Secondly, blocking sites does not make the internet slow. Deciding where to route a host request, or deciding not to route it at all does not make a difference. In any case routers decide this in split seconds; compared to regular network response time that's negligible. Find a better tech.

Please try finding that for me in a news clipping or other source information that talks about your number. I think you will find some clippings that say that number way multiple times higher that 10,000. This is old news and has already been discussed and put to bed in the past, so I know my information is accurate.

Also all access of the internet in Thailand comes through one access point. So please also find me a clipping or other source that verifies that information you are saying. Your credibility is staring to slip my friend.

[Tony Clifton]

I don't know if you have noticed but the internet has been faster in Thailand. I was told by a tech the reason for that is the number of websites being blocked is way down from when Thaksin was in office. Every page request has to be checked to the blocked list. The longer the blocked list, the longer it takes.

Sigh..

First of all, the list of blocked sites was a couple thousand during Thaksin, mostly porn and stuff related to the Southern insurgency. Under the military junta, this went up to over 10,000 sites, many of which with political content critical of the coup. (And can find the link if you're interested).

Secondly, blocking sites does not make the internet slow. Deciding where to route a host request, or deciding not to route it at all does not make a difference. In any case routers decide this in split seconds; compared to regular network response time that's negligible. Find a better tech.

People keep ranting about blocked sites when they should first learn about international bandwidth and DNS issues that have plagued Thailand`s internet system and annoyed users way back even under Thaksin`s rule and made tens of thousands of internet websites unreachable as time went by, from legit and reputed foreign newspapers, church groups, Japanese wrestling leagues to ginseng grower`s associations and leprechaun hunters. The problem was greatly exaggerated only to criticize the junta which ordered the blockage of much less sites than Thaksin`s cybercop. If you don`t believe it, go and ask the experts in Thaivisa`s own Internet, computers, communication, technology in Thailand Thaivisa itself was often unreachable because of DNS issues, not censored.

The Domain Name system (DNS) associates various sorts of information with so-called domain names; most importantly, it serves as the "phone book" for the Internet by translating human-readable computer hostnames, e.g. www.example.com, into the IP addresses, e.g. 208.77.188.166, that networking equipment needs to deliver information. It also stores other information such as the list of mail exchange servers that accept email for a given domain. In providing a worldwide keyword-based redirection service, the Domain Name System is an essential component of contemporary Internet use.

Wiki

[sriracha john]

*double sigh*

The redeeming factor is that it's such an easy task to search and find information on Thaivisa.... saves tremendously on re-typing ...

They've been living under a rock from the last 5 years or what ? Internet in Thailand is indeed censored and we didn't have to wait for the junta for that !

We did have to wait for the Junta to increase internet censorship in Thailand by some 440% however.

http://facthai.wordpress.com/2007/02/05/rs...-2007/#comments

Interesting math on that link.... Not sure how they do it, but somehow their "45,000 blocked websites" is magically a number that is 440% greater than "800,000 blocked websites"

PM SHUTS DOWN MORE THAN 800,000 OBSCENE WEBSITES

Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has said that more than 800,000 websites deemed "inappropriate," will be shut down.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 14 January 2006

[Meerkat]

People keep ranting about blocked sites when they should first learn about international bandwidth and DNS issues that have plagued Thailand`s internet system and annoyed users way back even under Thaksin`s rule and made tens of thousands of internet websites unreachable as time went by, from legit and reputed foreign newspapers, church groups, Japanese wrestling leagues to ginseng grower`s associations and leprechaun hunters. The problem was greatly exaggerated only to criticize the junta which ordered the blockage of much less sites than Thaksin`s cybercop. If you don`t believe it, go and ask the experts in Thaivisa`s own Internet, computers, communication, technology in Thailand Thaivisa itself was often unreachable because of DNS issues, not censored.

I always thought that the DNS problems (which I agree are widespread in Thailand) would only result in not being able to view a given page, whilst trying to access a censored site would instead get you a message from one of the relevant government agencies stating that you were being denied said access.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2007/05/23/thaila15996.htm

I was also under the impression that, whilst the bulk of sites blocked by both the previous elected government and the junta were of the "obscene" nature (or anti-royalist), the junta had increased the banning of sites for political rather than moral reasons. I'm happy to be corrected of course if I was mistaken.

Personally I don't give a hoot about banning adult sites, but sites being blocked for political comment is a much darker development.

[chownah]

*double sigh*

The redeeming factor is that it's such an easy task to search and find information on Thaivisa.... saves tremendously on re-typing ...

They've been living under a rock from the last 5 years or what ? Internet in Thailand is indeed censored and we didn't have to wait for the junta for that !

We did have to wait for the Junta to increase internet censorship in Thailand by some 440% however.

http://facthai.wordpress.com/2007/02/05/rs...-2007/#comments

Interesting math on that link.... Not sure how they do it, but somehow their "45,000 blocked websites" is magically a number that is 440% greater than "800,000 blocked websites"

PM SHUTS DOWN MORE THAN 800,000 OBSCENE WEBSITES

Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has said that more than 800,000 websites deemed "inappropriate," will be shut down.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 14 January 2006

"triple sigh"

Your snippet to support your claim that Toxin shut down 800,000 websites only says that this is the number that "will be shut down". Don't forget that Toxin also said that a million cows would be distributed to farmers......I shouldn't have to remind you of all people that Toxin did not deliver on all that he predicted.

Chownah

P.S. I have no idea how many websites have been shut down by anyone.

Chownah

[sriracha john]

*quadruple sigh*

In real-world experience, encountering the Thaksin government's cybercop-blocked logo was far more prevalent than with the Surayud's governments logo. None of either involved porn sites in this real-world experience.

[Lilawadee]

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiighhhhhhhhhh... I thought I stated the bloomy obvious so no need to dig up the link, but, of course, it proves necessary.

Oh well.

-----

Length of the blocklist

The blocklist has also expanded from 1,247 websites in January 2004 to 11,329 in May 2007. The latest available MICT Excel file shows 17,775 sites blocked in total. A list of the sizes of the blocklists is included below:

* January 2004 - 1,247

* May 2006 - 2,328

* October 2006 - 2,475

* January 2007 - 13,435

* March 2007 - 10,885

* April 2007 - 11,239

* May 2007 - 11,329

-----

Source: http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Internet_Censorship_in_Thailand

A very interesting page, by the way.

[Lilawadee]

In real-world experience, encountering the Thaksin government's cybercop-blocked logo was far more prevalent

I never actually came across that logo, (((EDIT)). Anyway, this is of course not the case as demonstrated by my link above. Also, the reason the censorship page doesn't come up anymore is because they tried to hide censorship by just not displaying anything and let things time out, so users think it's not censorship but a network issue or the site just doesn't exist anymore.

Edited January 29, 2008 by lopburi3
flame removed - lopburi3

[Jai Dee]

Enough of the not-so-subtle flaming and petty bickering please...

Back on-topic thank-you.

[Ricardo]

So Thaksin was lying, or wrong, when he claimed to be shutting down access to 800,000 sights and sites ?

My own personal experience was that more sites were denied, towards the end of Thaksin's regime, and became available again shortly after the coup.

More importantly - what will happen now & in future, under Samak/PPP. Will blocked-sites be switched to one of his cooking-videos ? Will he continue his obscene interactions with the media, and start a sex-advice show, for journalists ? !

One can only wish him well, as the new PM, and hope that he serves all the country, rather than one man overseas, now that he has achieved this high political office.

Also that he keeps his word on promises made - what else does a politician have to offer if not his integrity - to the minor parties in his coalition ?

And, bringing it back on-topic, Well Done to the Junta ! Who peacefully removed the man who was the cause of the problem, in the summer of 2006, before there was too much blood on-the-streets. Who then kept their words and ran a fairly-honest election, and have passed power over to the new elected government, on-schedule. When it might have been so tempting, but very wrong, to have just clung onto power, as Thaksin had before them.

[sriracha john]

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiighhhhhhhhhh... I thought I stated the bloomy obvious so no need to dig up the link, but, of course, it proves necessary.

Oh well.

-----

Source: http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Internet_Censorship_in_Thailand

A very interesting page, by the way.

Indeed it's very interesting... for the absurdity level is practically insurpassable...

From the provided link:

Unless otherwise specified this document:

Is of substantial political, diplomatic or ethical significance.

Then once the list is opened, the reader learns that these are considered "substantial, political, diplomatic, or ethically significant list" of blocked sites:

danishgrannies.com

housewifebangers.com

boyonthenet.com

Edited January 29, 2008 by sriracha john

[Plus]

There was a Canadian guy who made a lot of noise about Internet sensorship by the junta, he was interviewed extensively and his number was mentioned many many times in the media.

On the close look it was a storm in a teacup, most sites, including newly blocked, would have been banned under any government, porn and anti-monarchy sites.

There WAS also a number of sites with political comments that were closed, very very few by comparison, I recon about two or three big ones, certainly not thousands - there aren't so many political sites to begin with.

[Lilawadee]

They show the full list, obviously. That's the purpose of the site.

While I object to ANY form of censorship simply because I prefer not to have the government sitting in between my computer and the content I want to access, I of course especially object to blocked content for political reasons.

Another very major issue is that the military junta made it a crime for people to bypass this blocking to seek the information they want to access.

[Plus]

It wasn't the junta, the Cyber Crime Law was passed by NLA that had representatives from all sectors of Thai society.

You could say that they represented the chovinistic, close minded and backward sectors, but overall I think they were a close reflection of Thai society in general.

[TAWP]

Before the coup angelfire and several other free webhosting sites was banned, along with about half the servers for imageshack.us

After the coup they weren't banned anymore.

Most likely due to the ban list being cleared out and only the distributed one being implemented.

Which is an indication that previous bans, before the coup, was rampant but perhaps not 'nicely listed'. So any numbers you would come up with would be incorrect, since there seemed to be a complete lack of oversight. Or ability to object to a ban.

And again, this as before the coup.