"face"

[micksterbs]

When I was first seriously considering moving here, I, like I'm sure everyone else on this Forum, read just about everything I could on the subject. I'm always interested in local cultures, etiquette, body language etc, mainly to avoid misunderstandings but also because I find it an interesting topic in its own right. Of course, the concept of "face" kept emerging; keeping yours and, by so doing, helping others to keep theirs. Seemed great on paper, especially when one lives in the UK where the whole idea of restraining one's emotions feels more like a fond memory a lot of the time. So (18 months ago) I arrive and start learning about my new home. It doesn't take long, however, for me to discover that "face" is a two-edged thing. I'll give an example...

Not long after I arrived, I needed to sort-out an internet connection so got TOT here to bung-in a 'phone line, went into Khon Kaen and bought a router. So far, so good. After about a week, I realised that all was not well with the router. Would only work for about 10 or 15 minutes and then would fail. When it was cool, fine again. Ok, not the end of the world,I have the receipt, dah-de-dah. Fine, off we go into KK to take it back to the shop. At first, I let TW chat to the bloke but I soon got the feeling that no progress was being made. Apparently, he was saying that it was fine even though he hadn't even touched it, let alone connect it up and switch it on. I knew from the first visit that the chap spoke reasonable English (I'd heard him speaking to another customer) so I just said "Ok, if it's fine, you won't mind taking it back into stock and giving us a new one, will you?" He just blustered and looked put-out and tried to give it back to me but I kept my hands behind my back. I could feel my wife becoming uncomfortable and fidgeting next to me. I think she thought I was going to make a scene. But I stayed polite, quiet but firm. Basically, I just let him know that it was unacceptable, I knew it wasn't his fault but the product was US and I expected them to swap it. After a bit of huffing and puffing, he went off and came back with a new one. Big smile from me, thanks and off we go.

Now, I realise that customer-care is not Thailand's strongest point but that's not what I'm getting at. You can find unhelpful people the whole world over. Rather, it was my wife's attitude as we walked from the shop. She let me know that one doesn't lose face in Thailand and I shouldn't have put him in a difficult position etc. This surprised me a bit as I never saw my wife as being passive or meek and mild; she's not a pushover. But apparently, what I was supposed to do was bend over and take it or bow and scrape. Hmmm. That's when I saw "face" as being not so straightforward after all. Just seems that what is, on the surface, a great way to behave can also be abused in order for certain people to get away with things. All the way from lazy shop assistants to corrupt politicians. Basically "Don't question me, you're letting yourself down". It seems to fit in with the patriarchal, patron/client, feudal nature of Thai society.

No, I'm not whinging about Thailand, haha! But I'd love to hear others' thoughts and experiences related to this.

[apetley]

Face is one of those things that westerners try but will never really understand, in my very humble opinion.

In my view what it boils down to for the one who is saving face is never admit your wrong, never say you don't know and never say sorry.

For the so called aggrieved party never say outright that you are right, never say this is how it should be and never demand an apology.

My bpen rai was invented for the concept of face.

It absolves the guilty when spoken by the victim and the perpetrator.

[JetsetBkk]

She let me know that one doesn't lose face in Thailand and I shouldn't have put him in a difficult position etc.

Been there, done that. HE put HIMSELF into that position. You called his bluff. He lost. Well done. The more this happens, the better for Thailand.

[Samuian]

There ain't no Problems in this country, nobody makes a mistake and nobody sweeps them under the carpet, everybody is happy!

Why u Farangs are always that fussy about the minor things in life, can't you be just happy too?

[Samuian]

Face is one of those things that westerners try but will never really understand, in my very humble opinion.

Sorry, I cannot come to terms with the "difficulties" supposedly involved in the understanding of this infantile bu..sh..

its outright rude, if not highly ignorant!

and the "mai pen rai" attitude is the big broom where everything is swept under the carpet - but this way problems don't get solved, they amount, till released in a mudslide...

[apetley]

Face is one of those things that westerners try but will never really understand, in my very humble opinion.

Sorry, I cannot come to terms with the "difficulties" supposedly involved in the understanding of this infantile bu..sh..

its outright rude, if not highly ignorant!

and the "mai pen rai" attitude is the big broom where everything is swept under the carpet - but this way problems don't get solved, they amount, till released in a mudslide...

I agree with you entirely. What I don't understand is the the concept of 'face' and it's preservation at all cost. Why do they put up with it?

Much better to talk about a problem directly rather than skirt around the issues and risk even more misunderstanding. Or even worse ignore the problem until it escalates to what you call a 'mudslide'.

[sgunn65]

Face is one of those things that westerners try but will never really understand, in my very humble opinion.

Sorry, I cannot come to terms with the "difficulties" supposedly involved in the understanding of this infantile bu..sh..

its outright rude, if not highly ignorant!

and the "mai pen rai" attitude is the big broom where everything is swept under the carpet - but this way problems don't get solved, they amount, till released in a mudslide...

I agree with you entirely. What I don't understand is the the concept of 'face' and it's preservation at all cost. Why do they put up with it?

Much better to talk about a problem directly rather than skirt around the issues and risk even more misunderstanding. Or even worse ignore the problem until it escalates to what you call a 'mudslide'.

I think the answer to the question why do they put up with it is; if they didn't they would have to admit that things weren't right and then where do you start????? You would open a pandora's box that may never be closed!!!

[Samuian]

....What I don't understand is the the concept of 'face' and it's preservation at all cost. Why do they put up with it?

Don't even try to find a "deeper meaning" to it! There is none, it's as I wrote, simplistically Mega-Ego, naive and infantile!

Supported by this patriotic "we are...." ahh well...

Much better to talk about a problem directly rather than skirt around the issues and risk even more misunderstanding. Or even worse ignore the problem until it escalates to what you call a 'mudslide'.

Yes, but this is the way we have been taught to solve, eradicate Problems, that why there are Consumer Protection Laws, law enforcing agencies, rather high insurance premiums... we are (mostly/usually) open for criticism and don't perceive this as hurting our egos, invasion of privacy, but as a support to be better, to improve things... well guess that is why things are way different...then we know, I am working in this country in a leading position in the service Industry, if I would have tried to find out... I probably would still be busy with it - awareness, open mindedness, listen, comply, do your job, if not bye, bye...!

Amazing how many prefer to go instead improving their attitude or working skills... truly amazing country - ahhh people!

Edited January 26, 2008 by Samuian

[micksterbs]

Yep, like I said, I just used the "router incident" as a pretty good example. But the concept seems to be so tightly woven into society here. Please don't misunderstand me; I'm not saying that Western culture is inherently superior or more advanced/civilised. But I was born in England and spent all my life there so, obviously, I'm shaped by that culture and cannot help seeing Thai culture through Western eyes. I think that sometimes, "face" could be very usefully applied to life in the West; especially when so many people seem to find it hard to control their agression/temper. But the way it is misused here just makes me want to shake my head sometimes. Lets not face (pardon the pun) something, lets move it to an inactive post. The buck never stops here, it just gets further and further away until everyone has forgotton that there even was a buck!

[micksterbs]

I agree with you entirely. What I don't understand is the the concept of 'face' and it's preservation at all cost. Why do they put up with it?

Much better to talk about a problem directly rather than skirt around the issues and risk even more misunderstanding. Or even worse ignore the problem until it escalates to what you call a 'mudslide'.

Sorry to double post.

I know what you mean, Apetley. I think all this starts at home, naturally, but where they really are introduced to it big-time is at school. The state-schools here are very militaristic (surprise, surprise) and certain things are just not encouraged. Like asking certain questions. I have a good friend (may be a member of TV) who teaches English at Loei Uni. He was telling me that his students would, with suitable encouragement, be okay with asking who, what, where, when and how-questions but why-questions? Like getting blood out of a stone, apparently. They were quite uncomfortable with the notion. It has taken him quite a while to get them relaxed enough to fire these type of questions at him.

[meemiathai]

When I was first seriously considering moving here, I, like I'm sure everyone else on this Forum, read just about everything I could on the subject. I'm always interested in local cultures, etiquette, body language etc, mainly to avoid misunderstandings but also because I find it an interesting topic in its own right. Of course, the concept of "face" kept emerging; keeping yours and, by so doing, helping others to keep theirs. Seemed great on paper, especially when one lives in the UK where the whole idea of restraining one's emotions feels more like a fond memory a lot of the time. So (18 months ago) I arrive and start learning about my new home. It doesn't take long, however, for me to discover that "face" is a two-edged thing. I'll give an example...

Not long after I arrived, I needed to sort-out an internet connection so got TOT here to bung-in a 'phone line, went into Khon Kaen and bought a router. So far, so good. After about a week, I realised that all was not well with the router. Would only work for about 10 or 15 minutes and then would fail. When it was cool, fine again. Ok, not the end of the world,I have the receipt, dah-de-dah. Fine, off we go into KK to take it back to the shop. At first, I let TW chat to the bloke but I soon got the feeling that no progress was being made. Apparently, he was saying that it was fine even though he hadn't even touched it, let alone connect it up and switch it on. I knew from the first visit that the chap spoke reasonable English (I'd heard him speaking to another customer) so I just said "Ok, if it's fine, you won't mind taking it back into stock and giving us a new one, will you?" He just blustered and looked put-out and tried to give it back to me but I kept my hands behind my back. I could feel my wife becoming uncomfortable and fidgeting next to me. I think she thought I was going to make a scene. But I stayed polite, quiet but firm. Basically, I just let him know that it was unacceptable, I knew it wasn't his fault but the product was US and I expected them to swap it. After a bit of huffing and puffing, he went off and came back with a new one. Big smile from me, thanks and off we go.

Now, I realise that customer-care is not Thailand's strongest point but that's not what I'm getting at. You can find unhelpful people the whole world over. Rather, it was my wife's attitude as we walked from the shop. She let me know that one doesn't lose face in Thailand and I shouldn't have put him in a difficult position etc. This surprised me a bit as I never saw my wife as being passive or meek and mild; she's not a pushover. But apparently, what I was supposed to do was bend over and take it or bow and scrape. Hmmm. That's when I saw "face" as being not so straightforward after all. Just seems that what is, on the surface, a great way to behave can also be abused in order for certain people to get away with things. All the way from lazy shop assistants to corrupt politicians. Basically "Don't question me, you're letting yourself down". It seems to fit in with the patriarchal, patron/client, feudal nature of Thai society.

No, I'm not whinging about Thailand, haha! But I'd love to hear others' thoughts and experiences related to this.

Don't blame your wife. She is just not used to the western way and does not know what the outcomes could be like.

And for the shopkeeper, we don't know how much he actually makes. He probably can't do like what you did as to simply return the product to the manufacturer and thought it was either you lose money or himself.

[micksterbs]

Don't blame your wife. She is just not used to the western way and does not know what the outcomes could be like.

And for the shopkeeper, we don't know how much he actually makes. He probably can't do like what you did as to simply return the product to the manufacturer and thought it was either you lose money or himself.

Oh no, I wasn't blaming her. I wasn't blaming anyone; just making observations. You're right that she is not used to Western ways; good point.

As for the example, the guy at the shop was one of about 5 or 6 sales assistants in a big-ish computer shop in KK. So it wasn't his own money but I take your point. The router was practically brand-new and I had the receipt and I'm sure the company would claim it back from the router manufacturer. Anyway, the post isn't really about after-sales service in Thailand. Mind you, I'm sure we all have plenty of stories about that. Would be close to moaning though, yeah?

[AlexLah]

How about the Western version of 'Face"

Being PC?

Some people in my company really hate me as I take them by the balls if I catch them (and can prove) they talk BS.

Alex you should beter not mention these things during management meetings, it will hinder your carrreer within the company.

I do not frikkin care I respond then, I just want them to know that I know.

I have explained my view on the Asian face thing and I have my way to deal with it.

Explained it to the Thai team and they agreed.

Sorry I am just to lazy to type it all down again.

Cheers,

Alex

[moldy]

How about the Western version of 'Face"

Being PC?

Some people in my company really hate me as I take them by the balls if I catch them (and can prove) they talk BS.

Alex you should beter not mention these things during management meetings, it will hinder your carrreer within the company.

I do not frikkin care I respond then, I just want them to know that I know.

I have explained my view on the Asian face thing and I have my way to deal with it.

Explained it to the Thai team and they agreed.

Sorry I am just to lazy to type it all down again.

Cheers,

Alex

Yes me too. I've got in some very sticky situations, but something in me just snaps.

You see this face business can translate as "I can do any unspeakable acts that harm you and you shouldn't complain". Worse still you complaining means I don't have to feel guilty.

Well freak that for a game of soldiers.

Thinking well enough of somebody to want to protect their feelings is another matter however- that's plain old human kindness. So I'm not knocking the virtuous you understand.

[dogleg]

Balls that it is, we have to deal with it dont we?

I find the way to get along in the complaining scenario is to find a mutually acceptable, and absent, scapegoat. The manufacturers, the builder's foreman that didnt show up, whoever. Then the face issue goes a level higher up, and maybe, ha ha , one day the buck does stop.

[Jandajoy]

Interesting string. A couple of points from a naive beginner in LOS.

"Face" exists in varying forms throught out the world. In Sudan, for example, you'd never put somebody in a negative position. To avoid thins you spend hours talking in a round about of compliments until you eventually arrive at a mutually acepptable compromise. Note the word "mutually".

In the case of your router maybe suggesting that your own personal inadequacies had caused the down fall, and could the kind chap possibly find it in his heart to help you out might have worked.

I know that in western culture this would be seen as giving in but really does it matter? The end justifies the means. You want a new router and who gives a XXXX if you have to pretend to grovel. Making people feel good isn't hard and gets major results.

I worked in remote Aus. for 5 years running an Aboriginal school. "Face" there was incredibly important. As school Principal I quickly learnt that if I presented a scenario that caused people, kids and parents, to lose face I'd lost. Everything had to be constructed in such a way as to ensure that no one was "shamed", or "lost face".

I might be barking up the wrong tree here. but my gut feeling is that if you're in a potentially confrontational situation, no matter how minor, the most productive weapon is a, patience, and b, being prepared to give, i.e. pride, position or whatever.

As long as you get a new router who cares, but the bonus is that the next time you go back you'll have a friend. A friend who'll feel slightly abashed. aware as he is of the way you let him off the the hook the last time.

That's it. Cheers

[lannarebirth]

I don't see the bad router as a "face" issue at all. It was a money issue. They had yours already and didn't want to give it back. Money always trumps face here from what I've observed.

[dogleg]

I don't see the bad router as a "face" issue at all. It was a money issue. They had yours already and didn't want to give it back. Money always trumps face here from what I've observed.

Think you are right on this one, and it could be more of a "there goes my bonus - her comes my fine" issue - Altogether more complicated!

[Jandajoy]

I'd certainly bow to your greater experience but I do think that, as a general attitude and approach my case rests.

Happy days

[lannarebirth]

Well, the guy he returned it too wasn't really vested in the sale anyway from the information I read, so no face involved. My guess is he took one off the shelf and put the OP's back on the shelf.

[gburns57au]

Understanding Face.....is knowing how to deal with a situation where there are no losers. How you approach someone when you have a problem is an important thing to know...

In the case quoted....all that needed to be said was " I know it is not your fault, but this router is not very good, can you replace it for me"

By saying what you said, you put him on the spot....

Edited January 26, 2008 by gburns57au

[Jandajoy]

Understanding Face.....is knowing how to deal with a situation where there are no losers. How you approach someone when you have a problem is an important thing to know...

In the case quoted....all that needed to be said was " I know it is not your fault, but this router is not very good, can you replace it for me"

By saying what you said, you put him on the spot....

My point entirely. Well put.

Geoff

[lannarebirth]

Understanding Face.....is knowing how to deal with a situation where there are no losers. How you approach someone when you have a problem is an important thing to know...

In the case quoted....all that needed to be said was " I know it is not your fault, but this router is not very good, can you replace it for me"

By saying what you said, you put him on the spot....

My point entirely. Well put.

Geoff

I would agree with that approach as well, and hopefully it will bring you the desired result. If it doesn't, by your own words, you've just established the nonculpability of the establishment. Continuing on after an initial rebuffment will then be both futile and make you look silly.

[dogleg]

Understanding Face.....is knowing how to deal with a situation where there are no losers. How you approach someone when you have a problem is an important thing to know...

In the case quoted....all that needed to be said was " I know it is not your fault, but this router is not very good, can you replace it for me"

By saying what you said, you put him on the spot....

My point entirely. Well put.

Geoff

So where is the Face discount on the price then?

They aspire to charge "Western" prices without the Western guarantees or service or often copyright. Anyone who goes along with it is a mug!

[IMA_FARANG]

When I was first seriously considering moving here, I, like I'm sure everyone else on this Forum, read just about everything I could on the subject. I'm always interested in local cultures, etiquette, body language etc, mainly to avoid misunderstandings but also because I find it an interesting topic in its own right. Of course, the concept of "face" kept emerging; keeping yours and, by so doing, helping others to keep theirs. Seemed great on paper, especially when one lives in the UK where the whole idea of restraining one's emotions feels more like a fond memory a lot of the time. So (18 months ago) I arrive and start learning about my new home. It doesn't take long, however, for me to discover that "face" is a two-edged thing. I'll give an example...

Not long after I arrived, I needed to sort-out an internet connection so got TOT here to bung-in a 'phone line, went into Khon Kaen and bought a router. So far, so good. After about a week, I realised that all was not well with the router. Would only work for about 10 or 15 minutes and then would fail. When it was cool, fine again. Ok, not the end of the world,I have the receipt, dah-de-dah. Fine, off we go into KK to take it back to the shop. At first, I let TW chat to the bloke but I soon got the feeling that no progress was being made. Apparently, he was saying that it was fine even though he hadn't even touched it, let alone connect it up and switch it on. I knew from the first visit that the chap spoke reasonable English (I'd heard him speaking to another customer) so I just said "Ok, if it's fine, you won't mind taking it back into stock and giving us a new one, will you?" He just blustered and looked put-out and tried to give it back to me but I kept my hands behind my back. I could feel my wife becoming uncomfortable and fidgeting next to me. I think she thought I was going to make a scene. But I stayed polite, quiet but firm. Basically, I just let him know that it was unacceptable, I knew it wasn't his fault but the product was US and I expected them to swap it. After a bit of huffing and puffing, he went off and came back with a new one. Big smile from me, thanks and off we go.

Now, I realise that customer-care is not Thailand's strongest point but that's not what I'm getting at. You can find unhelpful people the whole world over. Rather, it was my wife's attitude as we walked from the shop. She let me know that one doesn't lose face in Thailand and I shouldn't have put him in a difficult position etc. This surprised me a bit as I never saw my wife as being passive or meek and mild; she's not a pushover. But apparently, what I was supposed to do was bend over and take it or bow and scrape. Hmmm. That's when I saw "face" as being not so straightforward after all. Just seems that what is, on the surface, a great way to behave can also be abused in order for certain people to get away with things. All the way from lazy shop assistants to corrupt politicians. Basically "Don't question me, you're letting yourself down". It seems to fit in with the patriarchal, patron/client, feudal nature of Thai society.

No, I'm not whinging about Thailand, haha! But I'd love to hear others' thoughts and experiences related to this.

Here's another aspect of "Face"

I had a friend, a Thai-chinese who was rasied among westerners in Bangkok. His English was excellant, and he was familiar with Farang customs. Once, while he was working the reception desk in the small guesthouse his father ran, I saw him talking to a german who was staying in the guesthouse. This German was trying to arrange a day trip and wanted to arrange his bus schedule. He was under the impression that he could take a bus out to where he wanted to go and return the same day. I knew that it wasn't possible, that the German would have to stay overnight to get a return bus. It surprised me that my Thai-chinese friend wasn't pointing out the German's mistake. He knew that the bus wouldn't return the same day. Later I asked my friend why he hadn't corrected the German's impression. He told me that if he had corrected the German guy it would have made him lose face to correct him.

So you see, sometimes "Face" is not only for you, but also for the other person. You shouldn't corrrect another person or they will lose face when you point out their error.

[Jandajoy]

Images of an arrogant German insisting that they know best. Tha response "fine you're right I'm wrong" Best bar tenders in the world do it every day. "the customer is always right"

N.B. No offence to Germans, we all get a bit full of ourselves sometimes especially when speaking loudly and slowly doesn't get the message across.

See Basil Fawlty sketch.

happy days

Geoff

[yorkman]

Images of an arrogant German insisting that they know best. Tha response "fine you're right I'm wrong" Best bar tenders in the world do it every day. "the customer is always right"

N.B. No offence to Germans, we all get a bit full of ourselves sometimes especially when speaking loudly and slowly doesn't get the message across.

See Basil Fawlty sketch.

happy days

Geoff

Ohh I dont know.

My wife used to have an Internet Shop (Cafe) as a sideline. She still recounts the tale where a German demanded that the other customers disconnect so he could download his files more quickly.

No face was involved, she told him to take his custom elsewhere in no uncertain terms, in Thai, Issan, Tinglish and English. Not necessarily in that order.

I had to nip downstairs after hearing the argument, and point out where there was another place he could go... he went, never to be seen again

[fanciman]

To try and understand "face", considering the following might help: in countries where "face" is part of the culture,face is very important. Why? Because it is the individual's identity, and that identity must be impeachable. In "face" countries, there is no losing it and then getting it back again. eg no politician loses face and comes back. (Has Thaksin lost face? - They didn't let him buy Liverpool. But in Thailand, has he?)

In Western countries, you can screw up and start again, redeemed.

I think that is why they do anything to save face.

What do you think? Does this seem based on reality?

Personally, I think that face is just another tool, used by the more powerful over the less powerful, to maintain their control over other people. The less powerful go with the flow, due to the severely bad consequences they will incur in 'face' countries, where there is no rule of law, but rule of might.

Lets look at China. Their leaders hate it when there are human rights demos when they travel abroad, and they are challenged by activists. They decide to not issue contracts in retalitation.

Do you know any people with power in thailand that are not corrupt?

[xyborg]

My wife (Thai) doesnt buy into face, she often calls places to buy or ask something and always says to them if they dont know then to say so an not say yes. When they say yes she says "are you sure" and when the "yes is really a "no" she ticks them off.

[Eric1949]

As mentioned in my own post "suing a Thai lady" it reminds me what the judge told her lawyer.

He said that "if you want to be a lawer, go back to school and learn the law and morals"

The other people in the court not connected with my case just fell about laughing.

How much "face" do you think her lawyer would have lost?