Maybe A Lawyer Or...

[Jandajoy]

Hi folks,

I'd like some advice and possibly the contact details of either a Lawyer with some English, or a clever person with experience of land law. It's in the Issan area some 60 km due west of Chaiyaphum. There's a bit of land and a house that the boss'd like to buy and I'd like to live in. The vendor, elderly mother of Boss' best friends has only got a Por Bot Toy 5. The house already exists. Boss wants to buy and then I'd lease, in theory.

I'm getting too much "Mai pen Rai" "Get paper good later" Hmmmm.

I'll be up there this weekend and would be pleased to meet.

Thoughts, comments, suggestion or abuse gratefully received.

Geoff

[MrChokChai]

hi geoff

you could use isaan lawyers from korat

the guys name is sebastion

find him on koratfarang forum

good luck

if you have trouble pm me and i will give you his mobile

mcc

Edited January 28, 2008 by MrChokChai

[Jandajoy]

hi geoff

you could use isaan lawyers from korat

the guys name is sebastion

find him on koratfarang forum

good luck

if you have trouble pm me and i will give you his mobile

mcc

Thanks mate.

[bergen]

Hi folks,

I'd like some advice and possibly the contact details of either a Lawyer with some English, or a clever person with experience of land law. It's in the Issan area some 60 km due west of Chaiyaphum. There's a bit of land and a house that the boss'd like to buy and I'd like to live in. The vendor, elderly mother of Boss' best friends has only got a Por Bot Toy 5. The house already exists. Boss wants to buy and then I'd lease, in theory.

I'm getting too much "Mai pen Rai" "Get paper good later" Hmmmm.

I'll be up there this weekend and would be pleased to meet.

Thoughts, comments, suggestion or abuse gratefully received.

Geoff

If you haven't seen it already?...................... Isaan lawyers is one of the forum sponsors, and their link can be found on top of this page!

[Jandajoy]

Hi folks,

I'd like some advice and possibly the contact details of either a Lawyer with some English, or a clever person with experience of land law. It's in the Issan area some 60 km due west of Chaiyaphum. There's a bit of land and a house that the boss'd like to buy and I'd like to live in. The vendor, elderly mother of Boss' best friends has only got a Por Bot Toy 5. The house already exists. Boss wants to buy and then I'd lease, in theory.

I'm getting too much "Mai pen Rai" "Get paper good later" Hmmmm.

I'll be up there this weekend and would be pleased to meet.

Thoughts, comments, suggestion or abuse gratefully received.

Geoff

If you haven't seen it already?...................... Isaan lawyers is one of the forum sponsors, and their link can be found on top of this page!

Thanks mate I guess I should be looking for an optician as well. Have you used Isaan Lawyers yourself?

[lannarebirth]

I'm not familiar with the name of the title type you posted. Not all types of title allow enforcable leases. Here is a guide:

http://www.sunbeltlegaladvisors.com/Thaila...Deed-Search.php

[Gary A]

Looking at it from my point of view, why would you want to involve a lawyer, have tax problems and pay him money for something that would likely do you no good at all anyways. If your relationship were to go pear shaped, would you live there alone?

[Jandajoy]

Looking at it from my point of view, why would you want to involve a lawyer, have tax problems and pay him money for something that would likely do you no good at all anyways. If your relationship were to go pear shaped, would you live there alone?

Yes, for a while.

[Lite Beer]

I'm not familiar with the name of the title type you posted. Not all types of title allow enforcable leases. Here is a guide:

http://www.sunbeltlegaladvisors.com/Thaila...Deed-Search.php

It looks like it is TOR BOR TOR HA.

The above guide says,

These are squaters claims to land that has been settled. It is not possible to legally build on the land, sell or lease it.

If that is correct, stay well clear. As the op said he needs some good legal advise.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Lite Beer

[Lite Beer]

Sorry mate but I read your op to my Thai Wife and she had a good chuckle. Especially the Mai Pen Rai and Get paper later.

She said that land is only good for rice or trees. Not for building house.

Maybe your boss should get a new best friend.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Lite Beer

[Jandajoy]

Looking at it from my point of view, why would you want to involve a lawyer, have tax problems and pay him money for something that would likely do you no good at all anyways. If your relationship were to go pear shaped, would you live there alone?

A very fair point thanks.

[Jandajoy]

Sorry mate but I read your op to my Thai Wife and she had a good chuckle. Especially the Mai Pen Rai and Get paper later.

She said that land is only good for rice or trees. Not for building house.

Maybe your boss should get a new best friend.

Hmmm. It's an interesting one. The thing is that there's alread 75% of a house on it. A very good friend who has a lot of land felt that given the location and that there was already a house on it it'd be ok. The question of the lease arrangement is anbother question. Following the maxim of "buy nothing you're not prepared to walk away from" and the cost which is small, I'm not sure that it's a complete no no.

Thanks ever so much for the info. and the believe, your points well taken.

[Issangeorge]

"TOR BOR TOR HA" my wife bought some land that I thought had this title, when we finally got the new title for it with my wife's name on it, it was a number one Red Chanot Title. I was very pleasantly surprised that the land had this title. We had to get the land surveyed and it took well over a year to get the title, but other than the normal fees (which weren't much) no extra money was paid. Issangeorge.

[Lite Beer]

Go get that lawyer.

Sorry , replying to OP not George.

Good luck for you George.

Edited January 29, 2008 by Lite Beer

[keg]

Jandajoy,

The following is something I posted in the past concerning different land titles:

Nepal4me,

You speak of the land title as being Saw Bpaw Gaw land which I am not sure of what it is. Since it is a large tract of land it would be interesting to know what type title it has. Even though the law can say one thing I do understand that anything can actually take place. Although I am not an expert nor claim to be the following is what I know of the different land titles:

As mentioned in your post, Chanote is the top land title and gives full ownership rights to the owner and has an accurate survey with boundary markers. This is the only true land ownership document.

Next is Nor Sor 3 and Nor Sor 3 Kor - This land can be bought and sold and gives the possessor most rights associated with ownership. The difference in the two is how accurate the survey is. Nor Sor 3 Kor has an accurate survey with boundary markers where Nor Sor 3 has a survey but no boundary markers which could lead to disputes with neighbors.

Next is Sor Por Kor - This is land that is allotted by and overseen by the land reform committee. This land has an accurate survey and defined boundaries. The difference with this land is that the possessor can only pass this land down to legal heirs and it can not be bought or sold. I believe that a large portion of rural Issan farm land is of this type of title. The intent is that the land stay in the family and not be bought up by rich land speculators. One recent change to this type of land is that it can be used for loan purposes now through the farming cooperatives bank. Each person is allowed only 50 rai each of this type of land.

Next is Por Bor Tor 5 - This land is either farm or forest land not under ownership or control of the land office. This land is administered by a local village leader who oversees possession rights and boundaries. Sales are carried out under the supervision of this village leader and recorded locally only. This land can�t be built upon.

Por Bor Tor 6 - This is a document issued for all land so that it can be assessed for taxes.

Next is Sor Kor 1 - This entitles the possessor to occupy the land and farm it only. It can�t be built upon. It can�t be sold but only transferred to heirs. This is the basic squatters rights document. After long term occupation, application can be made to upgrade title. This application can only be made by the long term possessor. Most Sor Kor 1 land has already been upgraded to Nor Sor 3 land.

Are one of these the title you speak of as Saw Bpaw Gaw? Buying and selling of all this type of land happens all the time in thailand even the prime minister is involved with an issue of building a house on land that was not supposed to be sold nor built on. Sounds like you got a pretty good deal on the land and hope everything works out with the farm. Keep us updated on the progress.

Keg

[Jandajoy]

Jandajoy,

The following is something I posted in the past concerning different land titles:

Nepal4me,

You speak of the land title as being Saw Bpaw Gaw land which I am not sure of what it is. Since it is a large tract of land it would be interesting to know what type title it has. Even though the law can say one thing I do understand that anything can actually take place. Although I am not an expert nor claim to be the following is what I know of the different land titles:

As mentioned in your post, Chanote is the top land title and gives full ownership rights to the owner and has an accurate survey with boundary markers. This is the only true land ownership document.

Next is Nor Sor 3 and Nor Sor 3 Kor - This land can be bought and sold and gives the possessor most rights associated with ownership. The difference in the two is how accurate the survey is. Nor Sor 3 Kor has an accurate survey with boundary markers where Nor Sor 3 has a survey but no boundary markers which could lead to disputes with neighbors.

Next is Sor Por Kor - This is land that is allotted by and overseen by the land reform committee. This land has an accurate survey and defined boundaries. The difference with this land is that the possessor can only pass this land down to legal heirs and it can not be bought or sold. I believe that a large portion of rural Issan farm land is of this type of title. The intent is that the land stay in the family and not be bought up by rich land speculators. One recent change to this type of land is that it can be used for loan purposes now through the farming cooperatives bank. Each person is allowed only 50 rai each of this type of land.

Next is Por Bor Tor 5 - This land is either farm or forest land not under ownership or control of the land office. This land is administered by a local village leader who oversees possession rights and boundaries. Sales are carried out under the supervision of this village leader and recorded locally only. This land can�t be built upon.

Por Bor Tor 6 - This is a document issued for all land so that it can be assessed for taxes.

Next is Sor Kor 1 - This entitles the possessor to occupy the land and farm it only. It can�t be built upon. It can�t be sold but only transferred to heirs. This is the basic squatters rights document. After long term occupation, application can be made to upgrade title. This application can only be made by the long term possessor. Most Sor Kor 1 land has already been upgraded to Nor Sor 3 land.

Are one of these the title you speak of as Saw Bpaw Gaw? Buying and selling of all this type of land happens all the time in thailand even the prime minister is involved with an issue of building a house on land that was not supposed to be sold nor built on. Sounds like you got a pretty good deal on the land and hope everything works out with the farm. Keep us updated on the progress.

Keg

Thanks for that mate. Some good stuff. I'll let you know how I get on. In the meantimes I have to say that it's looking quite good. We'll see.

cheers

Geoff

[Jandajoy]

Hi Folks,

Firstly a big "thank you" to all the people who responded to this topic. It was extremely helpfull.

Just to let you know the outcome, we ended up dropping the whole thing. I was very tempted but in the end it just didn't feel right. A really good learning curve though.

For anyone else who might be thinking of doing the same I'd like to post a couple of thoughts and observations.

1. The cinood (spelling) is, as many people pointed out, the only sure way to go for a falang.

2. A lot of Thais certainly buy property that is only "Tor bor ha" (spelling) and they build on it. As pointed out previously, the ex PM seems to have done something like that. But, it's only worth considering if you're absolutely sure of the integrity of the parties concerned. Whilst I had serious doubts given the advice provided by all of you, I was seriously tempted. The location was great and the house and land were exactly what I wanted at a very good price. It got to the point where I said that if the local boss man (pu jai bahn?) agreed to the deal and the Orbortor (I am sorry about my romanisation), the area boss, agreed we'd buy.

3. In the end there was a big meeting with the local boss, the vendors family, all of them, and 2 or 3 other guys who just turned up. Discussion ensued and I realised that the oldest brother wasn't happy. He then wandered off with the pu jai bahn bloke and had an intense conversation behind a tree. Twenty minutes later they returned to say that we needed to measure out the 2 1/2 Rai again.

Guess what? It had shrunk by about 1/2 a Rai. Hmmmmm methinks there is trouble afoot.

4. The next thing was "How much you pay for the access?" "10,000?" Er.... "No, I don't think so"

5. Anyway it was clear that things were going down hill fast. We said "thanks but we need to think about it a bit more."

6. Got back to Banchang to receive a phone call from the daughters, wifes' friends, saying that the brother had been convinced that he could get more and that failing a doubling of the price he intended kicking us out once the house had been renovated. True or not it was enought to forget the whole thing.

7. A cheap yet valuable lesson all things considered.

8. Finally, to anyone considering a similar deal LISTEN TO THE FOLK IN THE FORUM

Thanks again for all your suggestion. We're now looking for a similar type place but with the right paper work. Somewhere east of Chang Rai towards Wiang Kaen looks good.

Cheers folks

Edited February 5, 2008 by Jandajoy