Monkhood - Costs

[chiang mai]

Mrs CM's younger brother is going into the monkhood at the end of March, prior to finding out if he has to do national service. If he has to serve in the army he will be a monk for two months at best and if he does not have to serve he says he will stay for one year. Fine said I, tell him to shave his head and get on with it.

But it seems there are some costs associated with his either long or short visit to the temple and as the family guardian of expense claims I am obliged to do an audit! Apparently he has to buy all manner of things for his duty as a novice monk including a robe, a bag, a bed mat and a bowl for collecting donations. Then there is the ritualistic drive around town in the back of a pick up to announce his departure and a truck will have to be rented. And then of course there will be a small celebration beforehand where he can drink with his friends and booze must be acquired.

It sounds to me as though 10k baht should cover the whole thing nicely although I don't get out too much so perhaps I am out of touch. Mrs CM says the family is trying to raise a fund of 30k and this seems excessive. Either way I'm not in the frame to be paymaster on this one (I'm sure they've earmarked me for something much more expensive later) but as auditor of strange events, odd needs and financial things I need to provide a steer.

Anyone have experience of this kind of thing before?

[apetley]

Some friends(Thai) of wifey and myself are organising a party for their son later this year when he becomes a monk.

The budget for that may hit 100k but as you may know they will get alot of that back as the party guests all give donations.

I think the costs for the robe etc are pretty insignificant compared to the cost of a 'major' party.

[lannarebirth]

If the occasion only were about becoming a monk, the expenses are really quite limited. In Thailand however, these occasions tend to be about the collective family "face". They seem to think a bacchanal is the best way to gain this face. The bigger and longer the better. I can't find any reference to it in the Buddhas teachings.

[apetley]

If the occasion only were about becoming a monk, the expenses are really quite limited. In Thailand however, these occasions tend to be about the collective family "face". They seem to think a bacchanal is the best way to gain this face. The bigger and longer the better. I can't find any reference to it in the Buddhas teachings.

I agree entirely.

Our friends are quite well off and so the corresponding party.

[sbk]

Having gone through it with my husband I can tell you there is far more involved than a night of drinking beforehand.

Any private parties aside, I will start with the day where he puts on the white robe and his head is shaved. The monks at the wat are fed and given donations of robes etc. then, depending on the size of the family and the celebration, there can be a party at the Wat. My husband was the first (and only so far) son to become a monk so his father had quite a big do (he also has a huge extended family) He hired shadow puppets for the evening. The first day, if I recall correctly, was mostly immediate family--well, aunts uncles and cousins as well--here that is immediate family --- (for the white robes and head shaving) then the rest of the family and friends were invited for the afternoon where they had to be fed.

Then, the next day he is ordained, the monks are also fed. No food in the afternoon for relatives on this day.

Sorry, no idea of general costs but it is possible to do something not too large, but at least here, the monks will have to be fed, and donations of robes etc made on top of the purchase of the robes for your BIL. Also, be aware that upon exiting the temple someone will have to purchase an entire set of new clothes for him (or at least, that is what they do here). The lot;shirt, shoes, underpants, trousers.

Different parts of Thailand will have different ways, but this is generally what we both recall. It was quite some time ago, shortly after we got married, so memories are a tad hazy. This is the way it is done here, that combined with my hazy memory of a very long time ago... but hope it helps a bit and gives you a very general idea of what is expected to happen.

**have to add, after reading the above two posts, here it is only 2 days and generally not a huge bacchanal. There is no alcohol served at the wat for the afternoon meal. But, they are largish affairs mainly because everyone has such large families.

[Pepe']

If the occasion only were about becoming a monk, the expenses are really quite limited. In Thailand however, these occasions tend to be about the collective family "face". They seem to think a bacchanal is the best way to gain this face. The bigger and longer the better. I can't find any reference to it in the Buddhas teachings.

___________________

I went to one of these parties. My ex wifes cousin was becoming a monk. A huge throng of people danced arounf the temple. I was pulled from the crowd and had a bottle of Mekong shoved in my hand and told to drink.

The booze was nasty especially at 10:00 am but it was a very spiritual experience kind of like Mardi Gras.

And I was the only farang there which made it even more interesting. May be the only farang in Samut Sakorn...

[sbk]

Must be a regional thing then because I have been to quite literally dozens of ordinations and alcohol is not served at the Wat. Perhaps on the night of the party there will be tables set up outside the wat. but inside and during the day? No. Never, not in 19 years. Nor has my husband in his 40 years. Alcohol is not allowed inside the Wat here.

Fascinating how different it is.

So, I guess, in that context, chiang mai, it would help to know where in Thailand your wife's family plans on having the ordination?

[chownah]

You can become a monk in Thailand virtually for free or you and your family can spend as much as you want....its up to the family pretty much.

Chownah

[Pepe']

Must be a regional thing then because I have been to quite literally dozens of ordinations and alcohol is not served at the Wat. Perhaps on the night of the party there will be tables set up outside the wat. but inside and during the day? No. Never, not in 19 years. Nor has my husband in his 40 years. Alcohol is not allowed inside the Wat here.

Fascinating how different it is.

-----------------------

Interesting. I had been to two of these ceremonies both in Samut Sakorn and bottles were being passed around by the men as we danced around the temple.

I've spent a lot of time in Thailand. Samut Sakorn always seemed a little like the wild west even though it is just 30 minutes outside of BKK (with no traffic fo course).

My mother in law had a restaurant there. There were a couple of guys (cousins) that would pull up on their bikes with a .45 stuck down the front of their pants.

I thought pretty cool. The family had very heavy police connections.

Occasionally, a few minutes outside of town in the rice fields people were shot and put in shallow graves for the crabs to eat.

Just all got to seem quite normal.

A couple of times I got pulled over by the local cops, I just mentioned my mother in law's name. The cops smiled and waved me on.

Interesting place...

[lannarebirth]

In fairness to Thais, it has been my observation, that the world over, "rites of passage" ceremonies have escalated in cost and extravagance. It doesn't have to be a Thai man becoming a monk. It could be a Bar Mitzvah, a Christian confirmation, a Hispanic quinceaneras, kindergarten "graduations", whatever.

[chiang mai]

Must be a regional thing then because I have been to quite literally dozens of ordinations and alcohol is not served at the Wat. Perhaps on the night of the party there will be tables set up outside the wat. but inside and during the day? No. Never, not in 19 years. Nor has my husband in his 40 years. Alcohol is not allowed inside the Wat here.

Fascinating how different it is.

So, I guess, in that context, chiang mai, it would help to know where in Thailand your wife's family plans on having the ordination?

It's going to be in rural Sukhothai in an extremely poor village.

[draggons]

Been to a few, in the extended family. Some have been pretty lavish affairs, big parties the night before with big stage,dancers & band to very low key affairs where there's no blow out the night before being ordained.

All depends on the family concerned and how much they want to show face I think.

[lannarebirth]

Must be a regional thing then because I have been to quite literally dozens of ordinations and alcohol is not served at the Wat. Perhaps on the night of the party there will be tables set up outside the wat. but inside and during the day? No. Never, not in 19 years. Nor has my husband in his 40 years. Alcohol is not allowed inside the Wat here.

Fascinating how different it is.

So, I guess, in that context, chiang mai, it would help to know where in Thailand your wife's family plans on having the ordination?

I think it is a regional thing. It's gross generalization I know, but when I think of southern Thais, I always at first consider them to be more sensible, which usually proves true.

[DragonQuest]

Should be free. Wonder how much the thais pay?

[blizzard]

nuttin is free! especially when a farang auditor is involved.

[Virin]

I used to give necessity of monkhood for ordination to the temple in case someone who cannot afford will use it, total cost is less than 4,000 baht for average quality of those things unless they want to wear monk robe that costs more than 1,000 baht per piece. Some people choose to have simple ceremony, the expenses should be around 10,000 baht (included food for monks and guests, also money offers to the monks during ceremony). And many men ordained with no expenses at all.

[Rinrada]

You gotta buy the 'uniform'..ie the monks robes and maybe a spare set,a bowl and an umbrella (in case it rains)...flip flops are optional..depends on the order...ie.bare feet or not...and maybe a mobile phone....about 10 k bt....

You can become one for as long a period as you wish...3 days ...to whenever....

Also can check out the accomodation before you take the plunge... just got and talk to the head of the wat/order...

I spent some time crashing out on the floors of various temples in Cambo 15 plus years ago and always found the monks to be great bunch of guys and very talkative and enquiring......if however as suggested you needed a beer ...Ankor ..or WAT... then U had to go outside.....

[seonai]

Books are also bought in my experience. I have 'sponsored' two monks in Thailand and in my experience, I bought the robes, bowl, books, shoes, umbrella etc and the family got together and collected the money for the 'parties' - they make great merit in this way so they want to pay. And on the day when you or anyone else is offering these gifts to the new monk, everyone touches your back while you do so in order to obtain some of the merit.

Let the family have a collection and either donate or offer to buy robes/shoes/bowl/books

[Mosha]

When my wife gets back I'll get back to you CM. A friends grandma died a couple of days back, and my wife went to help out with the all night gambling We hosted her brother party last year, and I fairly sure we at least broke eve with the fiscal donation that the guests gave. Try to invite the likes of the Nai Amphur and the Nai yok obertor. Some people put on a show, others make do with Karaoke.

[jaiyenyen]

We hosted her brother party last year, and I fairly sure we at least broke even.

You were lucky! My wife and I got married in Bangkok a couple of weeks ago. Big party, 150 guests, I spent around 60,000 baht. My wife said, "Don't worry, we will get most of the money back in donations".

Total donations came to 15,000 baht.

Do you think they're trying to tell me something?

I'm thinking of having my wifes word's framed, and hung on the wall

Regards

Jaiyenyen

[TheWalkingMan]

If the occasion only were about becoming a monk, the expenses are really quite limited. In Thailand however, these occasions tend to be about the collective family "face". They seem to think a bacchanal is the best way to gain this face. The bigger and longer the better. I can't find any reference to it in the Buddhas teachings.

Agreed. I know one family which had a shindig for, I was told, 40k. These people are part of the sharecropper crowd and basically, IMHO, wanted to show "face" in the community.

TheWalkingMan

[Dakhar]

Yep, seen the poor shelling out 100K for the 8 week term of monkdum.

If you were to tell them they could have sent their son to college on that money..... the logic would not register for a single nano-second.

As for my wife, educated in the states.... it doesn't register with her either!

Edited February 3, 2008 by Dakhar

[chiang mai]

Thanks to everyone for the replies, you've helped me to understand this whole thing better and to put the costs into context. It always amazes me how poor families who collectively don't have a pot to urinate in and have to eke out an existence daily by any means possible seem willing and happy to find relatively large sums for events such as this. That's not a criticism, just an observation.

[Mosha]

Right this is from memory. and IMHO 100k is way uver the top. We had a budget of 30K. We sent out 500 invites, of which 320 were responded to, on average the envelopes we got back had 150 Baht in. We only gave whisky to the "big" people, and close friends Not so close got beer. We let a friend run a stall for the others. You will need beer and white whisky to keep the revellers happy taking him to the Wat in the morning. This probably won't apply to you, but in the sticks, where the begging runs can be quite long. The family organise his pick up in the morning take him to the first house in the run, and pick him up at the last house. If his offerings get to be a lot, then that is transferred to the transport. This might only apply to short term stays up to a month.

We did make a small profit. We would have made more, but Sopa decided we were having singers and dancers, then after 30 minutes demanded I set the pc up for Karaoke. So the entertainment were paid for nothing.

Just read you are going up north. What I described is in Ranong., and most people have the space to host the parties at home. Usually means setting up on the road though. My wifes cousin had his in Nakhon Sri Thammerat. Beer and whiskey were allowed in the Wat where the evening party was held, along with the gambling that went on all night.

Edited February 3, 2008 by Mosha

[sbk]

Well, then I guess island people are more conservative. Gambling at an ordination? Whisky inside the wat? Huh. Asked the staff about this and they were quite shocked. So, there you go. maybe its just people here.

Anyway, as has been said, you can make it as large or small as you want, but alot of it does depend on how large the family is--the bigger the family the bigger the do.

[Mosha]

I believe the length of the stay, and around here it tends to be 3 days, depends on how many tenets of Bhuddism the adherants wish to learn. My wife's cousin did 6 months and learned 120. I will go along with the regional variations in what happens, and also whether the family are pure Thai or Thai Chinese. Her brother did 2 weeks and learned 20, I am curious about the job side. What happens to their job when on extended stay. The cousin works for part of the family, so he had no worries.

[RueFang]

You're almost guaranteed to get your money back and then some. When my husband (Thai) had his party they spent about 60,000 baht on a 2 day party (tables & tents free) and received about 100,000 in donations...so that's a tidy profit! Since living here in the village and going to about a dozen of these parties (at the house, not the temple) I'm convinced that 99% of these dudes only become a monk for 2 weeks to make money and not because they are feeling in touch with their religion. Every party has involved drinking and gambling just like any other party.

[meom]

You're almost guaranteed to get your money back and then some. When my husband (Thai) had his party they spent about 60,000 baht on a 2 day party (tables & tents free) and received about 100,000 in donations...so that's a tidy profit! Since living here in the village and going to about a dozen of these parties (at the house, not the temple) I'm convinced that 99% of these dudes only become a monk for 2 weeks to make money and not because they are feeling in touch with their religion. Every party has involved drinking and gambling just like any other party.

I don't understand the tidy profit portion. What about the dozen parties you attended where you are supposed to give donation instead of getting some?

[Mosha]

Well you tend to notice the 40000 received than the odd 200 baht you give. 12x200 = 2400. Still a tidy profit

[chiang mai]

Right this is from memory. and IMHO 100k is way uver the top. We had a budget of 30K. We sent out 500 invites, of which 320 were responded to, on average the envelopes we got back had 150 Baht in. We only gave whisky to the "big" people, and close friends Not so close got beer. We let a friend run a stall for the others. You will need beer and white whisky to keep the revellers happy taking him to the Wat in the morning. This probably won't apply to you, but in the sticks, where the begging runs can be quite long. The family organise his pick up in the morning take him to the first house in the run, and pick him up at the last house. If his offerings get to be a lot, then that is transferred to the transport. This might only apply to short term stays up to a month.

We did make a small profit. We would have made more, but Sopa decided we were having singers and dancers, then after 30 minutes demanded I set the pc up for Karaoke. So the entertainment were paid for nothing.

Just read you are going up north. What I described is in Ranong., and most people have the space to host the parties at home. Usually means setting up on the road though. My wifes cousin had his in Nakhon Sri Thammerat. Beer and whiskey were allowed in the Wat where the evening party was held, along with the gambling that went on all night.

Thanks Mosha, useful stuff.