Land Access

[Pierrot]

We bought a piece of land a while ago, everything was fine until one of our neighbour came and told us that the path from the main road to our land belongs to him, goes through his property. It seems he has papers to prove it but as far a people rembember, this path has always been there. As always, what he wanted was money for us to still be able to use this path. Fortunately, he also needed water from our pond so we were able to find an arrangement.

My question is : does someone has the right to block the way to our property ? In other countries, the right to access one's property is always garanteed, even if one needs to go through other people properties. Furthermore, if it can be established that a path has been used for some period of time, the owner lose the right to block it.

I'm afraid that our neighbour will come again next time he needs money, and I would like to find a definitive answer to this problem.

[chownah]

IN which countries is access to property guaranteed?

Chownah

[lannarebirth]

There is no such thing as a prescriptive easement here in Thailand. I own a piece of property that many adjoining landowners use to access their landlocked properties. I've met them all, told them that for the foreseeable furure I don't see their access being denied, but I certainly cannot guarantee that will always be so. I had the puyai ban witness it and everyone understands it.

[Nepal4me]

This is very very common in Thailand. Land w/o access is referred to as "blind land". It is critical that your lawyers research this before purchasing the land.

Glad to hear that you made an "arrangement" it is always something to keep in mind when buying land. You can easily be the proud owner of land that you are not allowed to go to.

[Cuban]

Glad to hear that you made an "arrangement" it is always something to keep in mind when buying land.

Verbal Agreement ?

Thai-English "mis" translation.

Very difficult when the guy has water and chooses to forget the agreement.

[Pierrot]

IN which countries is access to property guaranteed?

Chownah

Law's never been my favorite subject, and it was a long time ago, but I believe it is true in most European countries and USA, but I can be wrong.

Furthermore I remember something about tradition is above the law in rural area, which means if there is a tradition to do something in a specific area, and this tradition is again the general country law (not murder of course, but mostly about land usage), local tradition prevails.

One example is if someone can prove he has developed a parcel of land when the official land owner didn't take care of it, the land belongs to him. That's why I said that as long as people can remember, this parcel of land has always been a path, never been used for any other usage.

[Pierrot]

This is very very common in Thailand. Land w/o access is referred to as "blind land". It is critical that your lawyers research this before purchasing the land.

Glad to hear that you made an "arrangement" it is always something to keep in mind when buying land. You can easily be the proud owner of land that you are not allowed to go to.

That's what we did, but there is something not very clear. There is a pond at the begining of the "soy", and a path next to it. What the other party claims is the access that belongs to us go through the pond, the path is part of its property and we need to pay if we want to use it. We said we won't pay, and if insisted and if he were right, we will fill the pond to make our own entrance. As he needs the water, he backed off and the problem is solved for the time being

[Gary A]

I was in that situation in Ohio, USA. It was called ingress and egress. The person who owned the land between my land and the road HAD to allow me a road to access my land. There happened to be a small stream across my access road and I had to pay for the bridge.

[chownah]

IN which countries is access to property guaranteed?

Chownah

Law's never been my favorite subject, and it was a long time ago, but I believe it is true in most European countries and USA, but I can be wrong.

Furthermore I remember something about tradition is above the law in rural area, which means if there is a tradition to do something in a specific area, and this tradition is again the general country law (not murder of course, but mostly about land usage), local tradition prevails.

One example is if someone can prove he has developed a parcel of land when the official land owner didn't take care of it, the land belongs to him. That's why I said that as long as people can remember, this parcel of land has always been a path, never been used for any other usage.

I'm not a lawyer. I think you are taking some legal concepts and assuming that they apply worldwide when in fact I think they don't. My memory is not perfect but it seems to me that I have seen gov't land sale advertisements (A State gov't in the US) which notified the prospective bidders that access was not provided.....if my memory is correct then it appears that access is not guaranteed by law.

Chownah

[Pierrot]

IN which countries is access to property guaranteed?

Chownah

Law's never been my favorite subject, and it was a long time ago, but I believe it is true in most European countries and USA, but I can be wrong.

Furthermore I remember something about tradition is above the law in rural area, which means if there is a tradition to do something in a specific area, and this tradition is again the general country law (not murder of course, but mostly about land usage), local tradition prevails.

One example is if someone can prove he has developed a parcel of land when the official land owner didn't take care of it, the land belongs to him. That's why I said that as long as people can remember, this parcel of land has always been a path, never been used for any other usage.

I'm not a lawyer. I think you are taking some legal concepts and assuming that they apply worldwide when in fact I think they don't. My memory is not perfect but it seems to me that I have seen gov't land sale advertisements (A State gov't in the US) which notified the prospective bidders that access was not provided.....if my memory is correct then it appears that access is not guaranteed by law.

Chownah

You're partially right Chownah, I am taking some legal concepts from back home but I don't assume nothing, I just HOPE they apply here.

[fruity]

As to the specifics of Thai access/tresspass laws, who knows? However, I cannot imagine in a million years that anyone has rights of access across another persons land. Thai people have crossed oneanothers land to access their own for centuries, theres millions of rai technically landlocked here, it is all owned & worked by someone!

I would suggest to anyone in the same situation to basically follow the 'when in Rome etc' route, it always pays to be 'nice' about such things in order to maintain the 'goodwill' Forget about legal redress, a civil matter such as this would take many costly years to resolve & there are no winners, especially the farang!

[Khonwan]

I'd seriously consider bridging the pond.

[Gary A]

My in laws had a narrow driveway that led to their house. The drive way had been used for at least fifty years. Not long ago they built a new house and needed the driveway for trucks delivering building materials. After their house was complete, a neighbor added on to his house and blocked that drive way. Now if you are VERY careful you can get a motor bike through. What recourse did they have? Apparently none. My advice would be to make sure that any land you buy is beside a road.

[Pierrot]

As to the specifics of Thai access/tresspass laws, who knows? However, I cannot imagine in a million years that anyone has rights of access across another persons land. Thai people have crossed oneanothers land to access their own for centuries, theres millions of rai technically landlocked here, it is all owned & worked by someone!

I would suggest to anyone in the same situation to basically follow the 'when in Rome etc' route, it always pays to be 'nice' about such things in order to maintain the 'goodwill' Forget about legal redress, a civil matter such as this would take many costly years to resolve & there are no winners, especially the farang!

Agree to maintain the goodwill. In any country, it's never been a good idea to fight with the locals when you belong to out of town. But blackmail is an other matter. What I'm afraid is if we pay, there will be a line from our door to the next village from people who have some other matters to "settle" with us.

Generally speaking, people in our area are quite nice and play by the rules. So far we had trouble with only a couple of trouble makers, and they are generally recognized as troublemakers so no blame on us.

[Cuban]

My advice would be to make sure that any land you buy is beside a road.

I would add one word to this statment.

My advice would be to make sure that any land you buy is beside an established road.

[Maizefarmer]

We bought a piece of land a while ago, everything was fine until one of our neighbour came and told us that the path from the main road to our land belongs to him, goes through his property. It seems he has papers to prove it but as far a people rembember, this path has always been there. As always, what he wanted was money for us to still be able to use this path. Fortunately, he also needed water from our pond so we were able to find an arrangement.

My question is : does someone has the right to block the way to our property ? In other countries, the right to access one's property is always garanteed, even if one needs to go through other people properties. Furthermore, if it can be established that a path has been used for some period of time, the owner lose the right to block it.

I'm afraid that our neighbour will come again next time he needs money, and I would like to find a definitive answer to this problem.

Pierrot

I see trouble on the horizon - "pan handle" access is a big issue in Thailand over which a lot of fists have being thrown.

You need to get yourself down to a lawyer - this idea that you have come to an ammicable agreement with your neighbour is not worth a cent - nothing. You need to get it in writing and registered at the district land office, and you need to do all this - before you do anything with the land - and for gods sake - don't start building anything on it.

What makes me shake my head here, is that no-one said anthing to you when you purchased this land. Every Thai is familiair with "pan handle" problems in Thailand. The first thing a Thai looks at when buying land are the borders of land relative to the nearest road - and if one of those borders is not up against the road the first thing they ask the seller is "who owns the land between my land and the road?" Every Thai knows this Pierrot - and while I can expect an ex-pat to maybe fall through on this, I roll my eyes when they say my partner, and her family didn't know either - because it inevitably turns out a few years down the road that they knew all along.

Okay, this what you need to do to protect you investment, because as it stand you are sitting with a piece of land that is effectively worthless - untill you purchase a neighbouring plot with road access (yer - how convienient it all is for the seller).

The verbal amicable agreement you have with your neighbour ain't worth anything - you need to get it in writing from him, and its needs to be noted in the land reg doc's. And to get that done properly in accordance Thai law, you need to see a lawyer who is aquainted with pan handle law - not just the local legal specialist (so send me your email by private message and I'll send you some names and tel numbers).

Untill then whatever you do - do not build on the land It has the potential to open up a can of worms.

[ozzydom]

We bought a piece of land a while ago, everything was fine until one of our neighbour came and told us that the path from the main road to our land belongs to him, goes through his property. It seems he has papers to prove it but as far a people rembember, this path has always been there. As always, what he wanted was money for us to still be able to use this path. Fortunately, he also needed water from our pond so we were able to find an arrangement.

My question is : does someone has the right to block the way to our property ? In other countries, the right to access one's property is always garanteed, even if one needs to go through other people properties. Furthermore, if it can be established that a path has been used for some period of time, the owner lose the right to block it.

I'm afraid that our neighbour will come again next time he needs money, and I would like to find a definitive answer to this problem.

Pierrot

I see trouble on the horizon - "pan handle" access is a big issue in Thailand over which a lot of fists have being thrown.

You need to get yourself down to a lawyer - this idea that you have come to an ammicable agreement with your neighbour is not worth a cent - nothing. You need to get it in writing and registered at the district land office, and you need to do all this - before you do anything with the land - and for gods sake - don't start building anything on it.

What makes me shake my head here, is that no-one said anthing to you when you purchased this land. Every Thai is familiair with "pan handle" problems in Thailand. The first thing a Thai looks at when buying land are the borders of land relative to the nearest road - and if one of those borders is not up against the road the first thing they ask the seller is "who owns the land between my land and the road?" Every Thai knows this Pierrot - and while I can expect an ex-pat to maybe fall through on this, I roll my eyes when they say my partner, and her family didn't know either - because it inevitably turns out a few years down the road that they knew all along.

Okay, this what you need to do to protect you investment, because as it stand you are sitting with a piece of land that is effectively worthless - untill you purchase a neighbouring plot with road access (yer - how convienient it all is for the seller).

The verbal amicable agreement you have with your neighbour ain't worth anything - you need to get it in writing from him, and its needs to be noted in the land reg doc's. And to get that done properly in accordance Thai law, you need to see a lawyer who is aquainted with pan handle law - not just the local legal specialist (so send me your email by private message and I'll send you some names and tel numbers).

Untill then whatever you do - do not build on the land It has the potential to open up a can of worms.

To late I fear MF ,on another thread he is talking about his newly finished house.

[Pierrot]

We bought a piece of land a while ago, everything was fine until one of our neighbour came and told us that the path from the main road to our land belongs to him, goes through his property. It seems he has papers to prove it but as far a people rembember, this path has always been there. As always, what he wanted was money for us to still be able to use this path. Fortunately, he also needed water from our pond so we were able to find an arrangement.

My question is : does someone has the right to block the way to our property ? In other countries, the right to access one's property is always garanteed, even if one needs to go through other people properties. Furthermore, if it can be established that a path has been used for some period of time, the owner lose the right to block it.

I'm afraid that our neighbour will come again next time he needs money, and I would like to find a definitive answer to this problem.

Pierrot

I see trouble on the horizon - "pan handle" access is a big issue in Thailand over which a lot of fists have being thrown.

You need to get yourself down to a lawyer - this idea that you have come to an ammicable agreement with your neighbour is not worth a cent - nothing. You need to get it in writing and registered at the district land office, and you need to do all this - before you do anything with the land - and for gods sake - don't start building anything on it.

What makes me shake my head here, is that no-one said anthing to you when you purchased this land. Every Thai is familiair with "pan handle" problems in Thailand. The first thing a Thai looks at when buying land are the borders of land relative to the nearest road - and if one of those borders is not up against the road the first thing they ask the seller is "who owns the land between my land and the road?" Every Thai knows this Pierrot - and while I can expect an ex-pat to maybe fall through on this, I roll my eyes when they say my partner, and her family didn't know either - because it inevitably turns out a few years down the road that they knew all along.

Okay, this what you need to do to protect you investment, because as it stand you are sitting with a piece of land that is effectively worthless - untill you purchase a neighbouring plot with road access (yer - how convienient it all is for the seller).

The verbal amicable agreement you have with your neighbour ain't worth anything - you need to get it in writing from him, and its needs to be noted in the land reg doc's. And to get that done properly in accordance Thai law, you need to see a lawyer who is aquainted with pan handle law - not just the local legal specialist (so send me your email by private message and I'll send you some names and tel numbers).

Untill then whatever you do - do not build on the land It has the potential to open up a can of worms.

Thank you for your concern but don't worry, we do have an access to the main road. We had the family lawyer to assist us when we made the purchase and we actually did purchase an additional plot to secure the access to the main road. The main point of discussion is our neighbour claims that this access is through a pond, and that the path we use belongs to him. So, worse come to worse, we fill the pond (or make a bridge as suggested, but filling the pond will be cheaper) and the problem is solved. My question was more about to have the cake and eat it, keep the road access AND the pond. And fortunately, water is more a problem for our neighbour than for us, that why we have the upper hand for the time being.

Thanks again for your concern, it's nice to know one can get support when one needs it.

[Pierrot]

To late I fear MF ,on another thread he is talking about his newly finished house.

Thanks for your concern too, but as I explained in my reply to MF, there is no need to worry. In the worst case scenario, we will just need to fill a pond and make a new road. As I said, it was just a case of willing to have his cake and eat it.

[Maizefarmer]

Glad to hear the problem was solved - am lying in bed with my laptop chatting to the other half about this: she shook her head in disbelief. Without long term formal right of way or access you were going to have a never ending headache.

You new to this forum Pierrot (and to Thailand?) - just as a matter of interest, if you don't mind sharing this info: how have you structured the ownership of the land and the house?

Are you treating them as a single asset or have you kept them as 2 seperate assets?

Edited February 9, 2008 by Maizefarmer

[Pierrot]

Glad to hear the problem was solved - am lying in bed with my laptop chatting to the other half about this: she shook her head in disbelief. Without long term formal right of way or access you were going to have a never ending headache.

You new to this forum Pierrot (and to Thailand?) - just as a matter of interest, if you don't mind sharing this info: how have you structured the ownership of the land and the house?

Are you treating them as a single asset or have you kept them as 2 seperate assets?

Funny question, the answer is single asset. Are you concerned that my wife may have the sole ownership of the land and the house? You should be even more worry, we have a house in Bangkok under her name too .

To answer you other question, tomorrow is very special day for me, I arrived in Asia (Hong Kong) on Feb 10, 1993, exactly 15 years ago, and I never went back to Europe.

[Pierrot]

Glad to hear the problem was solved - am lying in bed with my laptop chatting to the other half about this: she shook her head in disbelief. Without long term formal right of way or access you were going to have a never ending headache.

You new to this forum Pierrot (and to Thailand?) - just as a matter of interest, if you don't mind sharing this info: how have you structured the ownership of the land and the house?

Are you treating them as a single asset or have you kept them as 2 seperate assets?

It's true I didn't pay too much attention to this problem until I read recent posts on other forums and I now realize that I completely trust my wife but should something happend I would rather solve some issues now than to have to negociate with my inlaws later.

One important point is my wife is working with an international company with a very decent salary, and beside the name on the papers, she provides her fair share of the money to buy our land/house too. So any solution we may consider needs to give us a shared control of our property. I say that because I have explored different solution including an userfruct, but it seems that with an userfruct we go for one extreme to the other, from the thai side having total control to the property to the other side getting this total control after signing the usurfruct.

Is it any solution that you could recommend that could be suitable for "farming" in Isaan? (means owning land, but also heavy equipement and probably live stocks), and also a commercial activity in the future.

[quiksilva]

The Thai Civil and Commercial Code does allow for narrow access to public highways for landlocked parcels. However seeing as you say that you already have access to the public road I don't suppose it will be of much help to you in this case.

You can also record rights of access over another property as a servitude, with the landowner's agreement. Although you will probably have to pay for it, but it is a right that can be registered on their title deed at the land office.

[chownah]

The Thai Civil and Commercial Code does allow for narrow access to public highways for landlocked parcels. However seeing as you say that you already have access to the public road I don't suppose it will be of much help to you in this case.

You can also record rights of access over another property as a servitude, with the landowner's agreement. Although you will probably have to pay for it, but it is a right that can be registered on their title deed at the land office.

Very interesting.....can you tell us more...how narrow is narrow?....to what kind or classes of land does it apply and to what kind and classes of land does it not apply?....when did this come into effect?....a link to the place in the Code....anything more would be appreciated.

chownah

[slapout]

chownah; your questions are most interesting, we have land with house, through which, we give access to 2 households via driveway. Only other access for these two households is via a private drive, and garden behind our property which is also private property. Everyone involved seems to understand that prior useage means squat all, if either party with access wanted to shut down access. When I mentioned, access by past useage, the village headman (owner of back side property) informed me that that did not apply in Thailand. He wanted the 2 households to be forced into a sale. Since we dont live there, (some of wifes family do,expendable) I said I was not interested in chaseing this option. , and people are still useing driveway for access. I thank the ' landowners agreement' is the key to this.