Grammar Question (sorry).

[kenkannif]

Hamburger IS the ground meat i.e. it's the name of the meat, you're not saying how much you eat of it (so why does it need to be countable?) but rather you like it?! Most of the teachers with I've spoken to here think I like hamburger, makes more sense than I like banana!

Generally though I think a lot of these can only be said as answers to SPECIFIC questions.

What meat do you like?

I like hamburger!

Thus it's assumed it's meat from the initial question?

[withnail]

Get five bananas peel them and chop them up into slices then put the slices on a plate or tray and what have you got, banana. The flesh that is the edible part of a banana is banana just as much as the meat in a hamburger is hamburger.

[kat]

Oops... posting as the wrong poster. Kat, make sure you're logging out completely after checking the forum!

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

(PeaceBlondie, Sat 2004-09-18, 01:14:12)

-But if you can't count them concepts like "acceptability" or "patience" as a general virtue - or grapefruit as a food category - then they can't be plural.

IJWT, I was merely questioning how useful an explanation like this one by PeaceBlondie would be to a class of students! Can you count grapefruit(s)? Can grapefruit(s) be categorized as "food"? A bit confusing no?

According to the dictionary, grapefruit can be a countable OR an uncountable noun and has TWO acceptable plural forms. If you are thinking about an "unspecified quantity" of grapefruit flesh then it should be treated as an uncountable noun. If you are thinking of whole fruits then the noun is countable.

It's not the "s" or lack of it that's the real problem ... it's the rest of the sentence structure.

Fewer/less grapefruit is/are eaten by children than adults.

Choose the "right" answer? It all depends on what you want to say!

I agree with the above, but I do usually manage to make this distinction in classes of students as long as the ideas of countable and uncountable have been demonstrated thoroughly and clearly enough. The students learn not to memorize countability noun by noun, but to consider the context and the thing in question.

One model for demonstrating this is the "knife test." If you cut the thing in half with a knife, and the stuff on the left side (or the right) is substantially the same as the original in use and operation as the whole thing, it is UNCOUNTABLE.

Explaining this is harder than showing it.

Imagine some ice cream. You cut it in half with a knife. The left "half" of the ice cream is basically a blob of ice cream, just like the original (though a little less).

You take a bunny and cut it in half with a knife. What you have on the left and right halves is no longer a living bunny. QED. That's a grotesque version, but the kid seem to remember it well! Less evilly, you could argue a computer, a house, etc. cut in half do not function as a computer or a proper house anymore.

There! I've given away one of my secret teaching techniques!

"Steven"

P.S. sorry about above- Kat, I'll pm you!

[roadie]

OK - I'm goona be pendantic, as this is the way the thread is going.

Hamburger isn't really a meat, is it? I think you would have to say I like minced/ground pork, beef, lamb shaped like a patty with some herbs and spices to taste.

I have to admit 'I like hamburger' doesn't roll off the tongue and to the layman, 'I like hamburgers' sounds gramatically correct.

Anybody like to split that hair, sorry hairs.

[Ijustwannateach]

"hamburger" is the uncountable meat, for example as it is in a hamburger pattie (the pattie itself being countable).

"A hamburger" is a countable sandwich.

Nearly ALL foods (of whatever kind) can be made uncountable in the sense that you can cut it up any way you like. But when the portion size defines the food, you cannot lose the countability.

For example, potato can be countable or uncountable, when it is referred to as a mass of vegetables or as a food element- however, a french fry is by definition a countable portion. It is therefore ok to like potato, to like potatoes, and to like french fries- but not to like french fry.

"Steven"

[roadie]

IJWT - I agree with the theory of your last post, except that 'hamburger' isn't a meat and therefore cannot be uncountable. Or are we from different sides of the channel, ie. an American and a Brit? As I'm sure Americans would count Hamburger as a meat.

[Ijustwannateach]

Whether or not hamburger is a meat or not does not influence its countability. The fact is that, without being in a countable portion such as a pattie or a sandwich, it is simply not countable (ever tried?) To put it another way, the source of the uncountability of hamburger is not its "meatness" or lack thereof, but its amorphous disposition not to be in distinct portions. Mash any food into a shapeless mess, and it will be equally uncountable, whether meat, fruit, vegetable, fish, or fowl.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

And on the off-topic note of what hamburger is, I agree that it is not necessarily "meat" in the same meaning of "the unaltered flesh of an animal used for food." However, it may be taken to be in relation to real beef (from which it can be made entire) as flour is to real wheat. Flour is not wheat, admittedly, though it is MADE of wheat and is therefore in the same food group. Therefore, though hamburger may be MADE of meat but not actually an unaltered meat, I would say it is basically in the meat food group.

"Steven"

[nomade]

My god. I'm a newbie here. Is it always like this?

PS IJWT, I haven't actually started teaching in LOS yet. Where does one get a supply of live bunnies for teaching purposes from?

[Ijustwannateach]

Hey, you SAID you wanted it pedantic!!! I aim to please!

If I'm using the evil bunny example (with a class that I judge can appreciate the humor), then I draw it on the board! Don't ask!

"Steven"

[nomade]

I said I wanted it pedantic? WHERE?

Ah well, at least you didn't give the obvious answer! LOL.

[Ijustwannateach]

Oops, sorry, it was ROADIE who wanted it pedantic!

[withnail]

So to try and some this up the sentence "I like _____" can be used with any food in its singular/uncountable form unless the name of the food already suggests a quantity i.e. french fries/chips/sandwiches/cheeseburgers (this suggests burger in a bun plus cheese not the meat).

Is this correct?

[nomade]

Err.... no? Hehe

As a "simple" (ahem) rule when talking about generalities:

1) Use the plural form of countable nouns (no articles)

eg. I like chips, oranges, bananas, kiwis, hamburgers, pineapples (whole fruits) ....

2) Use the uncountable form otherwise. (Don't confuse singular and uncountable BTW)

eg. I like meat, sugar, rice, jelly, pineapple (flesh) ....

[withnail]

nomade I am aware of the difference between singular and uncountable, apologies my last post wasn't written very well. I agree with the simple rule when talking about generalities. But can we agree that all the exceptions discussed so far are not incorrect although they do convey a different meaning.

[PeaceBlondie]

Since we ARE being pedantic, which happens on a subject like grammar or income tax law, let's back up and think about our target audience. This month I was teaching count/non-count to Matayom 2. They're beginners. If I were teaching MA-Tesol grad students who think they understand English, we'd get very pedantic because the students would think it matters. Ernest Hemingway and t.s. eliot probably wouldn't have cared.

[kenkannif]

Off topic a tad, I got a job application sent to me the other day. The chap had written "mine and my wife's resume", now I'm pretty sure this isn't correct (as the wife should go first) so I said it should read "my wife and I's resume", but this still sounds a bit dodgy? Anyone?

[Ijustwannateach]

I think that "my resume and my wife's" or "my wife's resume and mine" would both be better. I don't think what he said was strictly grammatically wrong, but it's certainly awkward since without an antecedent before the word "mine" it's unclear what noun it replaces.

"Steven"

[kenkannif]

I didn't think you were supposed to say yourself before someone else? You and me, my wife and I, Fred and I (or me) went shopping? But the second one sounds good. Still is the example I gave him grammatically correct or not? I spoke to a few of our teachers about this and they said, if in doubt (grammar wise) say it a different way (which is the beauty of English, or not as the case may be!), we can usually change the way we say something when we're unsure of the grammatical puriety of it (I'm going all out posh today!).

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, I think it's awkward but not grammatically incorrect. It's the equivalent of saying "This car is Bob's and Sherry's," but replacing the proper possessives with pronouns: "This car is his and hers." So I don't think the grammar is technically wrong, but it is awkward, and as you point out- also impolite!

"Steven"

[nomade]

kenkannif, aren't you confusing subjects, objects and possessive pronouns here?

my wife and I's resume

I think that's wrong. You should use a possessive form as IJWT says.

Fred and I (or me) went shopping

"I" is a subject, "me" is an object.

Fred and I went shopping -grammatically correct

Fred and me went shopping -grammatically incorrect , even though native speakers say it.

Hmm ... That politeness thing ... you may have a very good point there. Don't think I've seen it mentioned in a grammar book but it does seem to affect the grammar.

Fred and me went shopping. Remove the "Fred and" ... and you get:

"Me went shopping" which is obviously wrong.

HOWEVER, if put yourself first then you get:

"Me and Fred went shopping" which sounds uneducated but acceptable to a native speaker.

On the other hand

"I and Fred went shopping" sounds decidedly odd to me?

What do you think?

[kenkannif]

Well Fred can sod off to be honest. There were no names mentioned.

Me and Fred is incorrect is it not? You have to put yourself last don't you?

The program called you and me was wrong then?

He said "mine and my wife's resume" which to me is not correct.

I told him "my wife and I's resumes" which doesn't sound right to me, but seems grammatically correct?

How should it be said then?

Wife and my's resumes?

Wife and me's resumes?

Wife and I's resumes?

Maybe mine and my wife's resume is correct then?

I don't really care why it's wrong, but if it's wrong and if so how should it be said?

God English is mental!

[nomade]

LOL!

My wife's and my resumes/ My and my wife's resumes/ My wife's resume and mine/ Mine and my wife's resumes/ My wife's resume together with my own/ My own and my wife's resume

Duh!!!!! How about OUR resumes?

[kenkannif]

Our doesn't really tell you a lot though does it? I just thought of that actually (the simplest ways always seem to come to me last!).

Our resume's? Who's our? Who the heck are you? I don't know you!

So in actually trying to correct him I messed up? So if you get an e-mail from a bloke saying 'my wife and I's resumes', don't blame him it was me