Insulated Concrete Form (icf) 'workgroup'

[Khun Jean]

I am starting the process of designing a house.

I decided that i want to use some form of ICF to construct the house.

In Thailand these forms are very hard to get.

My idea is to construct these forms myself. I have several ideas on how to do that. Some ideas are using easy available materials when only small amounts of ICF blocks/panels are needed. But if interest is high then maybe making EPS blocks (using a factory) would be more economical.

I am looking for people who would like to build in this style and combine our information and experiences.

If you are interested in this please add a post with a small description of what you need to know and if you already have experience building like this if you are willing to share this.

Maybe a description of what kind of house you would like to build, and who knows ICF can be an advantage.

The process of building with ICF is very easy and the end result is a very solid house. MUCH stronger than the usual concrete houses build in Thailand. And because the process is simple, it would be possible to train workers in a few hours. With the smaller forms even the kids and the wife can help building the house, making it a real family effort.

I am still looking for some specific information about concrete pouring. What i have seen until know is that they use a 'half pipe' to pour the concrete, mostly used for floors. In this case you also want to pour the walls. For this ICF method to work a 3-4 inch hose would be required. Anyone seen one of these used in Thailand?

I hope there are some people who would like to build in this method, and it would be great to share our info and experience.

[tatom]

Having spent my working life in the concrete business, I can only say, concrete formwork is not for the do-it-yourselfer. Ive seen too many horror stories. Wet concrete has tremendous pressure and working with concrete in hot weather can be a real chalenge. Be shure you know what your getting into and good luck.

[chownah]

For this ICF method to work a 3-4 inch hose would be required. Anyone seen one of these used in Thailand?

To get concrete to flow through a hose this size it takes a concrete pump. They are either truck or trailer mounted and are used on highrise construction........

I suppose you could get gravity flow through a pipe that size if you used small aggregate and used a crane to suspend a big bucket of concrete feeding the pipe.....but I've never heard of it being done that way......there are lots of things I haven't heard of so doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Chownah

[Naam]

The process of building with ICF is very easy and the end result is a very solid house. MUCH stronger than the usual concrete houses build in Thailand. And because the process is simple, it would be possible to train workers in a few hours. With the smaller forms even the kids and the wife can help building the house, making it a real family effort.

-most probably you mean houses with a "concrete skeleton",

-your ICF method might have an energy advantage but the structure is definitely not stronger but (without skeleton) much weaker,

-you won't get a building permit for your building style except if no building department is involved and some "village headman" issues the permit,

-when pouring walls with rough (gravel 10-30mm) concrete the pouring becomes very difficult and compacting problems will arise.

but as we all have our dreams i wish you best of luck!

[Khun Jean]

Having spent my working life in the concrete business, I can only say, concrete formwork is not for the do-it-yourselfer. Ive seen too many horror stories. Wet concrete has tremendous pressure and working with concrete in hot weather can be a real chalenge. Be shure you know what your getting into and good luck.

The idea is to make ICF 'blocks' to be used as a permanent form. These ICF 'blocks' are popular in Canada & USA, and ery expensive to import.

I will not try to do the final formwork and pouring myself. I know my limits.

[Khun Jean]

The process of building with ICF is very easy and the end result is a very solid house. MUCH stronger than the usual concrete houses build in Thailand. And because the process is simple, it would be possible to train workers in a few hours. With the smaller forms even the kids and the wife can help building the house, making it a real family effort.

-most probably you mean houses with a "concrete skeleton",

-your ICF method might have an energy advantage but the structure is definitely not stronger but (without skeleton) much weaker,

The walls will be bearing the weight and have rebar for extra strength and as a whole will be stronger than the typical Thai style build houses. You could imagine the wall as a very large pillar surrounding the whole house. Better weight distribution, which is an advantage for the slab/raft foundation, and as it is one continues piece of concrete you'll get extra strength.

-you won't get a building permit for your building style except if no building department is involved and some "village headman" issues the permit,

Yes, i know about that. Anything new is automatically not allowed. My design currently has the typical pillars but instead of bricks or blocks the walls between those pillars will be made with the ICF method. Final wall with the isolation and finish will have the same thickness as the pillars. The rebar from the pillars and the walls will be connected and poured at the same time. It will look 'traditional' on paper.

-when pouring walls with rough (gravel 10-30mm) concrete the pouring becomes very difficult and compacting problems will arise.

Yes, ICF needs a different mix and smaller aggragate. Idealy you need a slump of 5-6" and aggregates should be around 10mm.

but as we all have our dreams i wish you best of luck!

Indeed. And i still have a lot of time to learn. I estimate at least a year before the first work will start.

[tjo o tjim]

Typically, in a tropical climate a lightweight construction is more effective than a well-insulated heavy construction. The major issue is not heat nearly as much as humidity.

ICF is a great system where you have dry or damp cold, but it doesn't work nearly as well in the tropics.

I think you would go much farther making a good modular lightweight construction system than to try and further the concrete block construction techniques here.

[Khun Jean]

Think tropical storms, floods.

The ICF system has at least a change to withstand those conditions.

A lot depends on the area of course.

I like wood. Termites like wood too. I like metal. Sea water likes metal too.

Thai workers are very familiar with concrete, and unless i wanted to build the whole house by myself i have to use what is available. Local skills, local products. Used efficiently. That is the aim.

A for the insulation qualities, it is not only heat. In the tropics you have 90% moisture in the air. Keeping that out in certain areas is a good thing. Noise is another, maybe even more important.

Airconditioning will be more efficient. With the local quality the house leaks enormously. Keeping the cold INSIDE with a combination of insulated walls,ceilings, double glazed windows and doors that shut properly is ideal. Mainly for the bedrooms and guestrooms.

In the other areas of the house high ceilings of at least 3 meters and an open design to allow wind to pass through.

The area is coastal so that would help keeping it cool.

[Marvo]

Khun Jean, after (hopefully) securing my dream plot on Friday, I too am about to embark on a year-long research and design program for the "matching" home. I wish you every success with your project and look forward to hearing your tales of the process as the design evolves.

[xerostar]

Why don't you use Super Blocks?

They have a number of features that make them an excellent choice for building

- especially in Thailand.

They are dimensionally accurate so that less time is wasted aligning them.

They are very strong and can be used for multi-story construction.

They have excellent insulating properties against heat and noise.

Because of the good insulation achieved, only single brick walls are required with no need for

additional layers of insulating material.

They are made in large sizes so that a wall can be created much faster than using smaller

bricks. e.g. 600mm long x 300mm high x 100mm wide.

They can be sawn with any wood saw when odd lengths are needed.

They are very light and easy to handle making them ideal for a DIY family.

I'm not against inventing or new ways of doing things, but sometimes you have to pay respect

to the engineers who have come up with a great product that is very hard to beat.

[Rimmer]

Why don't you use Super Blocks?

They have a number of features that make them an excellent choice for building

- especially in Thailand.

They are dimensionally accurate so that less time is wasted aligning them.

They are very strong and can be used for multi-story construction.

They have excellent insulating properties against heat and noise.

Because of the good insulation achieved, only single brick walls are required with no need for

additional layers of insulating material.

They are made in large sizes so that a wall can be created much faster than using smaller

bricks. e.g. 600mm long x 300mm high x 100mm wide.

They can be sawn with any wood saw when odd lengths are needed.

They are very light and easy to handle making them ideal for a DIY family.

I'm not against inventing or new ways of doing things, but sometimes you have to pay respect

to the engineers who have come up with a great product that is very hard to beat.

Ya know I've been wanting to ask this question since the start of this thread but did not want to appear stoopid 'cos I know nothing about ICF construction. I have used hundreds of thousands of these blocks and they are everything you claim and more besides. The workers love them as they can build perfect walls in no time at all also they are also load bearing so there is no need for sow poons at the corners.

And at the end of the day when you cost them out not even expensive.

[Spacer]

What exactly is a super block and where can I get more info?

[Khun Jean]

For what i was planning i need load bearing walls. But nothing is set in 'concrete'

ICF are not a new invention or technology. It is around for at least 10-15 years. It is getting more popular because the ease of building.

You don't have only blocks but also panels. With those a wall is setup in minutes. Pouring the concrete will be the biggest challange.

I don't like, better say i hate the simple style most houses are build in. a column every 3-4 meter is not acceptable. I need at least 6 meters better even 8 meters between load bearing structures.

As an icf wall will be bearing the weight all along its width it should be more strong and stable and the foundation would have a more more equally divided weight. (i am planning a strip or raft foundation).

Another plus is i think the more strong concrete that you get with icf. As the form stays in its place it keeps the concrete 'wet' so that it can cure better and gets a lot more stronger. Also the whole structure will be tied together which will give less change of cracks, also during settling of the building.

I see 2 mayor challenges for building with icf in Thailand. First getting the forms, and second pouring the concrete. Ideally with a concrete pump. But i have never seen one used in Thailand.

Alternatively a pour can be done in stages,but then you have a few cold joins which is not that bad but if it can be avoided it is better.

The superblock i intent to use for the internal non weight bearing walls. Easy to construct and easy to remove if necessary.

Now the building work is still far in the future, and i started this topic to get more knowledge and share info between people who are also interested in this technique. I know about other building materials and techniques, i think for me personally icf is the way to go. So please use this topic for a discussion about icf and not for a match between which system is better. They all have there own plusses and minusses.

[xerostar]

What exactly is a super block and where can I get more info?

Check out these web sites:

http://www.superblockthailand.com/index.html

and

http://www.qcon.co.th/indexen.htm

[xerostar]

This building method has been used a lot here in Perth for building factory units.

The method uses precast "tilt-up" concrete panels.

They require a structural engineer and trained personel to install them with very stringent safety conditions applied.

http://www.infolink.com.au/articles/28/0C015028.aspx

There have been a number of deaths and serious injuries associated with their installation in Australia.

These panels can weigh from 5 to 25 tonnes and this factor alone brings with it a lot of dangers, especially when

unskilled labour is used in their construction and handling.

See:

http://www1.worksafe.vic.gov.au/vwa/home.n...l_collapses.pdf

http://www.worksafe.vic.gov.au/wps/wcm/con...%20construction

http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/WorkSafe/PDF/Sa...e_structure.pdf

http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/WorkSafe/PDF/Sa...t-up_panels.pdf

http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/WorkSafe/PDF/Sa..._falls_over.pdf

Code of Practice for Tilt-Up Panels:

http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/WorkSafe/PDF/Co...up_Precast_.pdf

[chownah]

I don't like, better say i hate the simple style most houses are build in. a column every 3-4 meter is not acceptable. I need at least 6 meters better even 8 meters between load bearing structures.

As an icf wall will be bearing the weight all along its width it should be more strong and stable and the foundation would have a more more equally divided weight. (i am planning a strip or raft foundation).

Another plus is i think the more strong concrete that you get with icf. As the form stays in its place it keeps the concrete 'wet' so that it can cure better and gets a lot more stronger. Also the whole structure will be tied together which will give less change of cracks, also during settling of the building.

If your main reasons for choosing ICF are:

1. larger distances between load bearing structures

2. stronger concrete through better curing

3. structure tied together for less cracking

then you might want to reconsider.

The difficulty in getting large distances between load bearing structures is in constructing strong enough structural members to span the distance....building strong enough verticle supports (columns or walls) is usually not the difficulty. Consider that you want an 8 metre by 8 metre sized room....you could either build a load bearing wall all around or you could put columns all around. You could put columns at the corners only (they would require very large footings)...or you could put columns every 4 metres (the footings would have half the area of corner only option)...or you could put columns every 2.67 metres...or every 2 metres...or every metre...you can put them as close together as you want....eventually the columns are so close that they are actually constructed as a wall. At any rate building the columns or the walls does not change the size of the free span area which is 8 meters square. But...consider the beams needed to support the floor above or the roof....they will need to be rather large for this long free span but they will need to be the same regardless of whether they are supported with columns or a wall. I have never done a cost breakdown for column vs. wall support but it seems like if it was cheaper to do the wall then Thai people would do walls....their always looking for a way to save money and they almost universally use post and beam construction.

Curing concrete can be done adequately using post and beam construction....just keep the concrete wet...keep it shaded...its really not that big of a deal to do...you just have to do it....most Thais won't but on my projects they do....

Having the entire structure tied together.....with post and beam you have that...as to cracking...I don't know about this one....I don't really know if a load bearing wall will have less or more cracking tendency than post and beam...with good footings of adequate size you really shouldn't have appreciable cracking....if building a basement in Thailand I think I'd go with post and beam with reinforced poured concrete infill walls.

Chownah

[Khun Jean]

Thanx for the detailed reply. Much to consider and learn.

[Tigerbuild]

Thanx for the detailed reply. Much to consider and learn.

I am also very interested in using ICF for several proposed projects in Thailand. The advantages are well suited to the local enviroment and estabilished accepted building methods. The method has been used worldwide for over 20 years, and has proven to be a very cost effective and passive building medium. It is a not a totally different system than aerated concrete blocks in that an additive is mixed with the concrete to achieve a simaler result.

I have been searching for a Bangkok based representative of one of the many systems that are available in Europe and Australia but to no avail.

The one point you made was the availability of concrete pumps, I must admit that I have never seen one on my many visits to Thailand but surely they must be available?

If you can find any more info - I am certainly interested

[Narcosis]

I too have pondered with the idea of using ICF in Thailand. I have used it a couple of times here in the UK.

I am looking to start an architecture company in Thailand and have thought of this as a construction method. At the moment it is mearly an idea and would appreciate it if someone could provide information on common construction methods used in Thailand such as wall make-ups and the use of insulation as I am unfamiliar with construction techniques in tropical climates.

Any information would be gratefully received

Many thanks

Narcosis

[Whitworthsocket]

I dont know much about ICF. But I do know a little about pumping concrete.

If you cant find a pump in Bangkok I would be vry suprised.

The olderpumps used the Peristaltic principle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peristaltic_pump

To Understand the principle

http://shop.monolithic.com/products/monolithic-ghp-2000

An example

Reduction Gearboxs and electric motors are available from the big hardware stores.

It should not be that hard to fabricate one/

Regards Whitwirthsocket

[Cisco]

I saw a concrete pump and delivery system in action on a condo site in Pattaya the other day.

[Tokay]

I've seen photos of modern homes that are built with HUGE blocks of concrete (size of a small car). Each piece has 6 holes on the sides, a few mm deep. Seen it in Thailand (there is one in Udon Thani) and Japan. Anyone know what those are called?

[nakachalet]

chownah

what does it meam 'banned'?

can you pm me pls?

[excaliber]

I've seen photos of modern homes that are built with HUGE blocks of concrete (size of a small car). Each piece has 6 holes on the sides, a few mm deep. Seen it in Thailand (there is one in Udon Thani) and Japan. Anyone know what those are called?

It sounds like you're talking about 'tilt-up' construction. The walls are poured like slabs with reinforcing steel and the holes are for lifting the slabs vertical with a crane or lull, when they then become walls; normally tied into support columns. This method was very popular in Southern California during the 70's & 80's, mostly used for commercial or industrial buildings, warehouses, factory's, etc. ..

[WatersEdge]

I've seen photos of modern homes that are built with HUGE blocks of concrete (size of a small car). Each piece has 6 holes on the sides, a few mm deep. Seen it in Thailand (there is one in Udon Thani) and Japan. Anyone know what those are called?

http://superiorwalls.com/

[Tokay]

I've seen photos of modern homes that are built with HUGE blocks of concrete (size of a small car). Each piece has 6 holes on the sides, a few mm deep. Seen it in Thailand (there is one in Udon Thani) and Japan. Anyone know what those are called?

http://superiorwalls.com/

Very close to what I'm talking about, minus the holes.

I've seen photos of modern homes that are built with HUGE blocks of concrete (size of a small car). Each piece has 6 holes on the sides, a few mm deep. Seen it in Thailand (there is one in Udon Thani) and Japan. Anyone know what those are called?

It sounds like you're talking about 'tilt-up' construction. The walls are poured like slabs with reinforcing steel and the holes are for lifting the slabs vertical with a crane or lull, when they then become walls; normally tied into support columns. This method was very popular in Southern California during the 70's & 80's, mostly used for commercial or industrial buildings, warehouses, factory's, etc. ..

That sounds like them. I'm seeing them pop up in a lot of modern home magazines and books. They must be making a comeback (or here for the first time) in Asia.

[David006]

Interesting stuff..seen that sort of construction downtown Perth office building I think..not for the do it yourself-er judging by the number of professional looking bods and cranes etc..

I used "super blocks" on frame house on the recommendation of the builder..did not call em that but...as a previous post and the web site suggests..easy and light to use..about 31 baht a piece although I got quotes as high as 40 baht! They float ( not relevant but..) and nail-able for putting up pics and whatnot easy to cut or snap to size without a diamond tile blade angle grinder. Not sure about insulation and noise as have so many windows in the house...welcome to pm me if need anything further.

[excaliber]

It seems this subject of ICF construction needs some updating.

Has anyone used the foam concrete forms since the initial and subsequent posts?

I have to agree with some of the previous posts about this method being good athough haven't found a source yet in Thailand.

I do, however, have a friend in Australia who is about to ship the forms over here for building his house and possibly doing it as a business also. The molds are quite expensive when you include the shipping, etc., but may well pan out in the long run.

Would be very interested to learn of anyone's experience with them over here (or anywhere).

With regards to pouring/filling the forms: as mentioned, can be done with conrete pumps, either small line (2" hose) or the larger 4" line which are avaiable in all the major cities. I owned and operated a small line pump for many years in the states for many different applications including: shotcrete for swimming pools, etc.

I'm mostly interested in usig the ICF forms for the foundation wall/grade beams. If you look at most contractor tenders you will see over 100,000 baht for "wood forms" (mai ba) which, in my opinion is a complete ripoff even though the wood is expensive but the builder usually takes it all home after its been used. I know steel forms are available for this but with the ICF you have some insulation qualities and quick set-up and finish and you can pour it right from the ready mix truck without a pump.

[bankruatsteve]

No matter what method you use for constuction, don't forget about the plumbing and other infastructure that needs to be inside of it. Not paying attention to those details in the first place (and they do need to be among the first things done), I am now grieving about my misattention to that. (The "builder" got fired when I realized he had no clue where drain pipes, sewer pipes, any pipes needed to be placed or sized for "western" type baths). Anyway... for you new bulders - just remember that the plumbing is NOT easy to change after it's set in concrete. (I'm not a plumber so maybe there is - but nobody around here knows.)

[stgrhe]

No matter what method you use for constuction, don't forget about the plumbing and other infastructure that needs to be inside of it. Not paying attention to those details in the first place (and they do need to be among the first things done), I am now grieving about my misattention to that. (The "builder" got fired when I realized he had no clue where drain pipes, sewer pipes, any pipes needed to be placed or sized for "western" type baths). Anyway... for you new bulders - just remember that the plumbing is NOT easy to change after it's set in concrete. (I'm not a plumber so maybe there is - but nobody around here knows.)

This is regrettably a common problem with too many Thai builders.